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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
57
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Posted - 2014.10.11 10:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix
Change the heat build up to per shot for the SCR. We have been saying this. YES, WE KNOW IT IT NEEDS A CLIENT PATCH TO FIX. it doesn't change the fact that it's the only way to fix it. Even with real guns, semi-auto fire means that you need to control you shots, limiting them to around 2-4 round bursts. That's why semi-auto is great in games. You need to aim to actually get your shots to count, but when they do hit, they hit hard.
With the current heat build up mechanic, you get the same heat build up when controlling your shots to a 2-3 round burst as you do if you spam the trigger. NO semi-auto rifle should operate like this. With the current mechanic of the rifle, you see an enemy at a med range, you aim, maybe charge up a shot, and you fire at him. After the first couple shots, he is gong to start evading your fire. With an automatic rifle, that's easy, just follow him with the right stick while holding the trigger. With a semi-auto, you need to re-adjust your aim, predict where he is going to go, and then fire a controlled burst. With the current mechanic you'll get 3 controlled bursts in a gun fight before it overheats on you. That's bullshit, unless he is an untanked scout or a shield heavy assault, he is going to get away.
So how do you kill with the SCR? Same situation, except now you have to hit the fire button as fast as you can, firing off twice as many rounds at him, all the while USING THE SAME HAND to track him as he tries to get out of your line of fire. Was that seriously the idea you guys had when you decided to make the SCR a semi-auto rifle? That yea, it had a higher dps, but the only way you could use it was by firing it as if it was an automatic rifle, with the user's trigger finger being the automatic ROF aspect. It is a broken. This is why auto triggers were able to ruin this rifle.
The only way it can be fixed is with a well needed client patch. If you don't want to do it that way, give us SCR users a skill under the SCR tree where we can increase the heat cool down by 10% each level. Multiple other rifles have the "Sharp shooter" skill, so adding another skill for us die hard SCR users wouldn't be too much to as for. Adding this skill wouldn't bring back the auto fire controllers, because they would still need to stop shooting for it to take effect. |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
58
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Posted - 2014.10.12 06:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Spectre-M wrote:<- first post in months.
Wow. They finally nerfed my ScR so hard it's useless. The empress would be disgusted.
I'm gonna say this again...for the hundredth time since we began the discussion for balancing it.
MAKE HEAT BUILD UP PER SHOT, NOT PER SECOND!!!!! I don't get what's so hard about this idea. This weapon was unjustly nerfed because of a third party variable ( turbo controllers ). This would have solved that issue first before collecting data on its power.
Too bad. My whole Amarr RP went down the drain that day.
Ps. Sorry Aisha, I'm glad you aren't around to see it laid to rest.
Those of us who use the rifle without a turbo controller weren't saying anything, more so not enough were saying ****, so they ****** up our rifle. I need to now class into another rifle, because it's not worth it anymore. |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
58
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Posted - 2014.10.12 22:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
My fellow SCR users, try the combat rifle. You'll need nano hives as an equipment because of the low ammo, but try it. You''l do as good, if not better then you could with the SCR. It's staggering to think that the SCR was OP when any one of us could go to other semi-auto rifle and it's like we're on easy mode. |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
60
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Posted - 2014.10.12 23:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:I always end up contributing, but I will try to stick to snide remarks... what can you do? On a serious not calling out exploitation is hardly what I would consider snide. An age old problem since last patch?
Disclaimer: I don't use turbo so my results may vary: I find your description is inaccurate remember we can all pick up the weapons right now lol. The weapon functions better than the combat rifle while aiming with 0 recoil in any fire mode it also fires like the AR when hip firing (or at least the BAR) making it one of the most if not the most versatile weapons in the game without a range penalty. As for that horrid weapon profile it give the weapon a headshot multiplier of 202%(rounded down) with proff 5.
But I am tired of weapons having any drawbacks also.
Sure, no recoil, but the overheat limits how many rounds you can shoot with accuracy, compared to the CR that is only limited by the magazine size.
The fact that it does operate like an AR when hip fired is because of the broken heat mechanic, which is what we want fixed.
the 202% head shot is because of the +20/-20, so after you drop their shield, your lvl 5 proficiency in the rifle goes away, and then the +20/-20 comes into play. So what does it go down to? Is it 202-40-15=147%, or is the math different? |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
60
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Posted - 2014.10.13 02:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:man- bear pig wrote:
Sure, no recoil, but the overheat limits how many rounds you can shoot with accuracy, compared to the CR that is only limited by the magazine size.
The fact that it does operate like an AR when hip fired is because of the broken heat mechanic, which is what we want fixed.
the 202% head shot is because of the +20/-20, so after you drop their shield, your lvl 5 proficiency in the rifle goes away, and then the +20/-20 comes into play. So what does it go down to? Is it 202-40-15=147%, or is the math different?
Base it 150% so 120% head shot multiplier once there shields are gone. The shots posted earlier were 16 before over heat with no regard for heat would allow you to do 915 dmg with no headshots to armor alone before you overheat. 1372.8 damage to shields.
How are you getting those numbers? STD, ADV or PRO? Also, how long did it take for the overheat to happen? because the mechanic works over time. When I did it, in a suit with no bonus to overheat, I got 16 shots with 3 seconds to overheat.
In game, everyone has both shield and armor. So you have to see what it actually does to a target. We'll take the STD ammar sentinal frame is 360/600 as our base target.
That 3 second window is the key, because that time of use is what the heat mechanic is based off of, and what the most limiting factor is.
STD SCR: you have 16 shots at 78/52 (+20%/-20%).
It would take 5 shots to drop the Sentinels shield, and then it would take 12 to drop his armor. So with only the 16 shots in 3 seconds, the sentinal has 28 armor left. The SCR has overheated, done 50 damage to the user, and has a 5 second cool down before the user can do anything except move, no running.
STD RR:27 shots in 3 seconds at a damage of 40/54. (-15%/+15%)
So 9 shots and the sentinels shields are gone, 11 shots to bring his armor is done. With the 3 second limitation and including the .3s charge up time, the sentinal is at 60 armor. The RR still has 22 rounds in the clip.
STD AR: 40 rounds in 3 seconds, at 33.99/27.81 (+10%/-10%)
With that, 11 rounds for his shield, 22 and his armor is down. With 33 shots the sentinal goes down in 2.5 seconds. The AR still has 27 rounds in the clip.
STD BAR: 21 rounds(rounded down) in 3 seconds, at 63.932/52.208 (+10%/-10%).
6 rounds for shield, 12 for armor, 18 rounds, 2.52 seconds to drop the sentinal. BAR still has 18 rounds in the clip
STD SMG: 50 rounds in 3 seconds at 18.9/23.1, (-10%/+10%)
20 rounds for shield, 26 rounds for armor. 46 rounds drops the sentinel in 2.76 seconds. The SMG has 4 rounds in the clip left.
STD HMG: 120 rounds in 3 seconds at 15.3/20.7 (-15%/+15%)
24 rounds for shield, 29 rounds for armor. 53 rounds drops the sentinel in 1.325 seconds. The HMG still has 1447 rounds in the clip, and has only built up 21.2 heat.
Please, if I am wrong about the (X%/Y%) of each rifle, let me know and I can adjust the numbers.
Regardless, this the the basic math everyone brings up when they talk about the SCR being OP for damage. When you add in its limitations and compare them against the other rifles, it shows more. I didn't factor in the percentage of shots that actually hit, head shots, range, mods, etc because you can't really take that into account unless you get a collection of match data. Sure, numbers up front makes the SCR look strong, but compared to other guns in the same 3 second overheat window it has, it's nothing.
I would have done the combat rifle, but idk what the average ROF people can actually put out on it. |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
60
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Posted - 2014.10.13 06:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:Good stuff m8. The AR and smg are not landing every shot + range limitations. The RR and CR I think we can all agree are still broken so you can't expect them to make every other weapon broken to match it.
I am aware that there are shields and armor lol. I used the pro scrR to get the numbers with weapon profile -/+ 16 shots.
I did not calculate the dmg to a target because I am not sure when the profile difference takes effect along with all the other factors.
I use the scrR on my alt and I don't find any issue with it but my mains assault is AR so that could be the disconnect if people expect game breaking weapons well the scrR isn't it any more and hopefully will not be again you will have to play with the RR and CR until they are fixed.
Exactly, no weapon is going to hit every shot, just like the SCR wont. Getting to 16 is impossible with any thought of control. If you use the SCR, then you know the only real time you hit that number is when you turn a corner into a sentinel with an HMG and you say "**** it, Id rather blow myself up trying to kill this big ***** then run and get shot in the ass like a *****." Atleast that what I think.
What everyone here is saying is that the game breaking aspect of the rifle is the heat build up mechanic. It's a semi auto rifle, as much as I use that ROF in the situation facing an HMG, I shouldn't be able to do that with the rifle. That's why turbo controllers exploited it and that's why not many people use the gun, it doesn't make any sense.
Now, they've increased the dispersion so it's not as accurate at hipfire, they add a kick so you won't get 4 rounds out before you need to re-adjust your aim, decreased the ROF which I'm actually ok with, and messed with the heat build up so you reach the overheat faster. Can you seriously say that all that was needed on the rifle? When no other gun has nearly as many negative effects to it.
They tried to fix a big issue by ******* up everything that was working, and avoiding the actual problem.
Just so we're clear, something was needed. The turbo controller users, with the previous ROF, would be putting out either 35 or 40 CONTROLLED rounds in the 3 second overheat period. The overheat period was actually bigger before too. I can't remember if the ROF was 700 or 800 rpm, so I gave them both. |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
60
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Posted - 2014.10.13 09:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:Your not suppose to let the rifle over heat at all, there are a ton of variables you are bummed out because it doesn't do enough dps to burn through a sent in 3 second solo lol. This is not something I would expect from any weapon aside from the bolt pistol lol. The ScrR work for me in fact more so then before for what ever reason and I will continue to have fun with it if it doesn't work for you like I said before there are still broken and exploitable weapons out there pick one up.
Then please, explain how you use the SCR? You seem to know a trick the rest of us don't, so share. I was using the numbers because you felt the need to point out how much damage it could do in 16 shots, which was irrelevant without context and a comparison. |
man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
60
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Posted - 2014.10.13 10:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Then we at least agree on one thing. The charge shot is the best feature of the rifle. You use the SCR as a med range TAC SR. Ok, I can see where you don't run into problems with the rifle. Using it in any other tactic is where you run into issues. People like myself who used it as our main rifle are seeing it more predominantly.
When defending a point, best case is you have a group of 2-3 guarding. Before, I could hold my own with those around me, taking out enemies at a med range while the heavy or scout got close. The issue now is that you can't finish an enemy off, so you're reduced to focusing on taking out the enemies shields, maybe a little armor, so that the rest of the group can finish them off. You can focus on the enemies that have lower health to try and use a charge shot, but that would require a smaller profile to really be of use. Either way you look at it, you're now just a support for the main force, when before you could hold your own on the front line.
Using it with a logi class is the best option, as you can provide fire support from a far, and run in with equipment when need be. However, there are better weapons to use with a logi class. RR keep you further out with more consistent fire. CR is the same distance but a more consistent fire. Mass driver is the best option, as you can disperse large groups while causing damage for you main assault group to step in. Which ever you choose, your still not using the assault or the commando classes. Or you are, and you logi support is severely limited.
They nerfed my rifle, I knew they were gonna, and I was ok with it. I would have rather taken a decrease in damage compared to what they did. I would have fully accepted a decrease in damage if they were open about the fact that they want to change heat build up and dispersion. All they mentioned was the ROF decrease.
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man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
60
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Posted - 2014.10.13 10:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
I've never played with you, but I think your playing type is the main reason why you don't like using the AR. I may be wrong though.
I don't think the problem is with the RR and CR, but with the fact that shields aren't really a viable option for defense as armor. This causes more people to focus on armor, which then makes the RR and CR more effective overall. Both the RR and CR get a bonus to armor damage.
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man- bear pig
D3ATH CARD
RUST415
70
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Posted - 2014.10.14 16:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:[quote=man- bear pig][quote=Blueprint For Murder][quote=man- bear pig]
lol. This is probably the most biased analysis I've ever seen on these forums. You're comparing a ranged weapon that is weak against armor and does poor sustained damage against the suit with the most health and armor in the game. Why don't you do the same thing except against a milita caldari light frame?
You're right, it is Bias, as I didn't want to spend more time working out everything for the other suits. It is the same reason why just posting 1372.8/915 dmg in 16 shots doesn't give the overall picture.
I eat Caldari's with the SCR, I actually look for them because I know they don't stand a chance.
My whole point was to show that the SCR is on par with the other weapons for damage, not that it was less effective. It will vary depending on the target, Caldari being the more opposite result, but it is not that big of a difference that you can say the SCR does to much damage.
If you want to work out the same math with other suits, please go ahead. The damage amounts and ROF for each weapon in 3 seconds is the same, so it's just dividing it with the new targets shield/armor. |
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