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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
151
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Posted - 2014.09.24 18:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Before I put my thoughts on this, I want to start and say that I would like to hear from the rest of the dropship community on these things and if CCP can look at these issues.
The assault dropship isn't in a balanced position at the moment with A/V and vehicles, by these factors:
Swarm Speed, and Swarm turning is removing dropships from play too easy. The swarm speed I don't really have an issue with but its turning radius is an issue. Evasive flying isn't helping a great deal. The issue is the turning for the swarms need somewhere around 5 - 10% more increase. 10-¦ - 90-¦ angle positions in relation to swarm missiles are not really allowing dropships to out maneuver them. Thus far my interaction with swarms calls for me running much more away from the battle rather than being a part of the battle.
Small Missile Turrets New Rate of Fire significantly hinders Python ADS Ability. With the now rate of fire, it is extremely difficult to engage swarm users, HAV's, and Heavies. Swarm launcher users currently can keep dropships running because the Python's rate of fire is it's only edge to do any type of meaningful strafe run. The current time it takes to aim at a target and deliver one missile + account for air speed + angle makes using the now small missile turrets extremely difficult to fight back. Another problem is small missile turrets previous speed allowed them to fight HAV's but currently AV has a far better chance at engaging them. The slower rate of fire is allowing HAV's that are hurt or pursued by dropships to heal back up with not much worry. When engaging Commandos and Heavies dropships are having far too much of a time to aim at them and fight back. The time required for the dropship to remain still, it's already large size, and inability to tell who is AV and who is not, is all working in A/V favor.
I don't think the changes rendered dropships useless but the changes in their current state have made dropships under performing ground vehicles and infantry. I will post another focusing on small blasters, small rails and the incubus soon.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
151
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 19:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Before I put my thoughts on this, I want to start and say that I would like to hear from the rest of the dropship community on these things and if CCP can look at these issues.
The assault dropship isn't in a balanced position at the moment with A/V and vehicles, by these factors:
Small Rail Turrets Rate of Fire is much more decent but its damage output is useless when engaging vehicles. With the previous rate of fire it made Dropships have a better chance of fighting back at HAV's, but put them in a horrible place in relation to the python and any other dropship that could fly. The rate of fire and amount of damage per shot with small rail turrets needs close attention. I would prefer and most pilots would also agree that we could see the rate of fire go down even a bit more if it can make up for it in damage. Currently as it stands small rail turrets make little difference when engaging HAV's, Installation Turrets, and LAV's from the skies.
Incubus fittings are now suffering much more to AV than the Python variant. We may see more Incubus users changing over to the already popular double double repairs incubus and more to equipping armor plates. Though the damage output on armor by A/V seems still too steep.
Small Blaster Turrets, feel a bit better than previous, but the splash damage could use a better increase if they will ever be used. As a front mounted gun on a Incubus or Python it is useless in attacking infantry. Something that could make them useful is increasing their spread a bit more to where the blast radius will always effect the center dot is. This could make it usable at better distances and not hovering at 5 meters in front of the target.
I don't think the changes rendered dropships useless but the changes in their current state have made dropships under performing ground vehicles and infantry.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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medomai grey
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
983
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:Swarm Speed, and Swarm turning is removing dropships from play too easy. The swarm speed I don't really have an issue with but its turning radius is an issue. Evasive flying isn't helping a great deal. The issue is the turning for the swarms need somewhere around 5 - 10% more increase. 10-¦ - 90-¦ angle positions in relation to swarm missiles are not really allowing dropships to out maneuver them. Thus far my interaction with swarms calls for me running much more away from the battle rather than being a part of the battle. Link
What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
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Kaeru Nayiri
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Gabriella Grey wrote:Swarm Speed, and Swarm turning is removing dropships from play too easy. The swarm speed I don't really have an issue with but its turning radius is an issue. Evasive flying isn't helping a great deal. The issue is the turning for the swarms need somewhere around 5 - 10% more increase. 10-¦ - 90-¦ angle positions in relation to swarm missiles are not really allowing dropships to out maneuver them. Thus far my interaction with swarms calls for me running much more away from the battle rather than being a part of the battle. Link
As I mentioned in another thread, I am all for a method of scrubbing missiles from swarms through evasive maneuvers. Something to keep busy instead of run away in a straight line and wait for my hardener to cool down. |
Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
152
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 21:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Gabriella Grey wrote:Swarm Speed, and Swarm turning is removing dropships from play too easy. The swarm speed I don't really have an issue with but its turning radius is an issue. Evasive flying isn't helping a great deal. The issue is the turning for the swarms need somewhere around 5 - 10% more increase. 10-¦ - 90-¦ angle positions in relation to swarm missiles are not really allowing dropships to out maneuver them. Thus far my interaction with swarms calls for me running much more away from the battle rather than being a part of the battle. Link
This was called by the community before the release. I hope we see some kind of soon adjustments before Tank spam, and A/V spam comes back into the game, full throttle.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Evan Gotabor
Prima Gallicus
89
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
If the Python is not in a good position, the incubus is worst. With less firerate, your smallrail overheat (level 5) with only 4 or 5 shots. The rail is simply useless. I will post a video soon that will show the before/after.
For the moment, I'm returning from where I started : incubus and missile launcher.
Without dogfight, the ADS is not as appealing 
Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
153
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Evan Gotabor wrote:If the Python is not in a good position, the incubus is worst. With less firerate, your smallrail overheat (level 5) with only 4 or 5 shots. The rail is simply useless. I will post a video soon that will show the before/after. For the moment, I'm returning from where I started : incubus and missile launcher. Without dogfight, the ADS is not as appealing
Yes when it comes to air vs ground the Incubus is having some hard times, that was why I posted all the issues on both. My rail RoF isn't bad but it isn't doing enough damage. Please post your videos as soon as you can, and lets hope we can get more pilots here for feedback.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3614
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships?
It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Evan Gotabor
Prima Gallicus
92
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:Evan Gotabor wrote:If the Python is not in a good position, the incubus is worst. With less firerate, your smallrail overheat (level 5) with only 4 or 5 shots. The rail is simply useless. I will post a video soon that will show the before/after. For the moment, I'm returning from where I started : incubus and missile launcher. Without dogfight, the ADS is not as appealing Yes when it comes to air vs ground the Incubus is having some hard times, that was why I posted all the issues on both. My rail RoF isn't bad but it isn't doing enough damage. Please post your videos as soon as you can, and lets hope we can get more pilots here for feedback.
The ROF is fine (a bit too slow, but I was used to the +50% bonus), but the overheat is simply wrong. 4 hits maximum with everything at level 5 do not reflect the investment VS reward that we should obtain.
Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
153
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 21:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships?
It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta.
I die quite a bit actually. But what are you going at is indifferent because the flux of feedback will over shadow most of what you maybe thinking is fine. My responses are far from bias. I have an Assault player, a logi, a scout and the hat goes deeper. I strongly suggest you looking from this aside from your own perspective. I am not sure if you mean this sarcastic or asking in sincerity.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
808
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships?
It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta.
I can go for several minutes not dying as an infantry suit. Really, both yours and my statements are anecdotal. And again: what's the point of vehicle damage points if driving off a vehicle is not enough? Either, vehicle damage is supposed to reward AV when they fail to finish a vehicle off; or AV is supposed to destroy vehicle all the time such that vehicle damage points are an unnecessary reward and AV/V balance is off.
Quite simply, this is a question that should b answered by Rattati, perhaps you could pose it to him for me (if he doesn't respond here) - is one AV player supposed to destroy one vehicle player in a one-on-on situation in evenly matched circumstances? If yes: why is AV so handsomely rewarded (ie, WP rewards for soloing a vehicle are very high); if not, then should the balance point for AV/V not be more powerful AV and cheaper vehicles?
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3615
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:I die quite a bit actually. But what are you going at is indifferent because the flux of feedback will over shadow most of what you maybe thinking is fine. My responses are far from bias. I have an Assault player, a logi, a scout and the hat goes deeper. I strongly suggest you looking from this aside from your own perspective. I am not sure if you mean this sarcastic or asking in sincerity.
Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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CELESTA AUNGM
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
279
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hello, Gabriella!
I can't contribute much to the ADS point of view reagarding the Swarm Missile gunfight, because I'm either DS transporter or DS door-gunner. When your standard DS gets the visual cue (or the hit) from the swarmer, it's a very different set of mechanics to gunslinging it out with the opponent.
In the DS driver's mindset, I immediately want to hold still and continue to be a target, to get the Swarm Launcher to expose himself long enough for my gunner to AIM-DOWN-ZOOM-SIGHTS and engage him. I KNOW my gunner can zoom and get a better render of the Launcher than I can get as the driver.
In the door turret-gunner's mindset, I can see that Launcher light up before all the missiles even leave his shoulder, and I PRAY my driver holds still and doesn't notice we're about to be hit by an initail swarm (yeah, it sounds callous to my driver), because I see a clean chance to zoom-aim and put a turret round right in the Launcher's mouth before he even lives to see his first volley harmlessly strike our Transport DS.
But an ADS doesn't have that (I'd say "FAIR") counter advantage against the Swarm Launcher.
Even if a DS driver can't "see" the opponent, her gunner has a crack at Zoom-locking on him with a turret as dangerously as he's Zoom-locking us, and the driver doesn't have to be so neck-crampingly positioned over the opponent for her gunner to out-shoot the Swarm Launcher.
...The ADS has no zoom, or early-visual, or latitude of firing-position, ... arguably NO FIGHTING advantage at all. Only a fleeing advantage, and a dev bias that's hell bent on MAKING you flee,
These are variables that I expect make the RoF turret reduction a LOT easier for DS driver/gunner crews to live with than for ADS operators. The mechanics of how the DS or ADS "defends itself and fights back" is almost too different for them to be using same spec gun (too different to be carrying the same spec gun...MAYBE, that's the key to a solution).
Those same variables are nearly impossible to argue to a Swarm Launcher carrier---he's got a totally different vision (literally)--he can't possibly agree that having "more rounds per second to make up for how hard it is to lock on him" is FAIR counterbalance for his "3 consecutive bullseyes on us"---and unfortunately the DS has now become the Moby **** that the obsessed Swarm carrier MUST BE ALLOWED TO KILL, OR ELSE THIS GAME IS BROKEN AND THE SWARM-PLAYER IS GOING TO KICK HIS PET DOG IN THE BELLY if CCP doesn't let him swarm-kill Celesta instead of just swarm-chasing her away.
And I don't think these variables will carry any weight with CCP, because in a face-off with AV or other vehicles, they want your ADS to have to flee more than it has been doing in the past. The more aggressive a vehicle is able to be in a confrontation, the more CCP's "balance" solution is to make that vehicle have to flee sooner, and stay around less. I don't agree with that at all for an EVE game, but To CCP, you may be legitimately considered "more balanced" now. 
Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne...
No story can have life without writers and publishers.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3615
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Quite simply, this is a question that should b answered by Rattati, perhaps you could pose it to him for me (if he doesn't respond here) - is one AV player supposed to destroy one vehicle player in a one-on-on situation in evenly matched circumstances? If yes: why is AV so handsomely rewarded (ie, WP rewards for soloing a vehicle are very high); if not, then should the balance point for AV/V not be more powerful AV and cheaper vehicles?
The problem is, it shouldn't be "ADS finds one AV, that AV dies" nor "ADS finds one AV, and gets to run off to safety". There should be a fight there. One player should be able to actually have a chance of killing another player and vice versa. However, while an ADS has an above average chance of killing any single infantry they encounter, an ADS is only threatened by infantry if they carry a small subset of weapons, and then, only if there are multiple infantry carrying that small set of weapons, apparently.
One player needs to be able to kill one player. If an AV and an ADS meet somewhere, they should each be capable of killing the other. And the AV should probably have a bit of an advantage, since their primary (or sole, in the case of swarms) role is to kill vehicles, whereas the ADS is much more versatile. And while the ADS has the chance to flee, the swarm launcher often does not.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
154
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 22:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Gabriella Grey wrote:I die quite a bit actually. But what are you going at is indifferent because the flux of feedback will over shadow most of what you maybe thinking is fine. My responses are far from bias. I have an Assault player, a logi, a scout and the hat goes deeper. I strongly suggest you looking from this aside from your own perspective. I am not sure if you mean this sarcastic or asking in sincerity. Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option.
See what you are failing to understand is pilots don't even think like that. Anyone who gets good at dropships has burned through isk and has a very bad KDR. Pilots don't care about KDR nor do they care about loosing their ships, they want to contribute to the fight. When they are flying there is a bunch of things from experience they have learned to be mindful of, that detours from the general infantry shoot, jump and hide behind cover. Most of what has been said in this thread hasn't been negative but constructive feedback. I think the dropship community agrees that they are indifferent about the after burner, but we are not ok with swarms having the speed they have while still having excellent turning. That isn't balanced when dropship pilots have to adhere by a double standard. That's just not fun at allGǪ
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
53
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Quite simply, this is a question that should b answered by Rattati, perhaps you could pose it to him for me (if he doesn't respond here) - is one AV player supposed to destroy one vehicle player in a one-on-on situation in evenly matched circumstances? If yes: why is AV so handsomely rewarded (ie, WP rewards for soloing a vehicle are very high); if not, then should the balance point for AV/V not be more powerful AV and cheaper vehicles? The problem is, it shouldn't be "ADS finds one AV, that AV dies" nor "ADS finds one AV, and gets to run off to safety". There should be a fight there. One player should be able to actually have a chance of killing another player and vice versa. However, while an ADS has an above average chance of killing any single infantry they encounter, an ADS is only threatened by infantry if they carry a small subset of weapons, and then, only if there are multiple infantry carrying that small set of weapons, apparently. One player needs to be able to kill one player. If an AV and an ADS meet somewhere, they should each be capable of killing the other. And the AV should probably have a bit of an advantage, since their primary (or sole, in the case of swarms) role is to kill vehicles, whereas the ADS is much more versatile. And while the ADS has the chance to flee, the swarm launcher often does not.
I don't quite get the bit where you think it should be easier for a 30k point and shoot weapon to kill a 430k (after delta) ads than it is the other way round.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3617
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
I understand that the ADS pilots think differently. I literally do not believe ADS pilots have experienced a balanced gameplay, because vehicles have always been some level of overpowered. The fact that ADSes have been borderline indestructible has to end. Because it's unfair to everyone else.
Let me put it this way, if the ADS had not been nerfed, the price would've had to go up. A lot. Their effectiveness was incredible for the price they were paying.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3617
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
a brackers wrote:I don't quite get the bit where you think it should be easier for a 30k point and shoot weapon to kill a 430k (after delta) ads than it is the other way round.
ISK cost isn't a good balancing method. (It's actually a really bad one.) And ADSes got an incredibly high ISK efficiency rating anyhow. They were too cheap for their durability.
And from personal experience, my swarm fit was close to 300k. And I would often lose three to six of them trying (and failing) to kill a single ADS.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
809
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:The problem is, it shouldn't be "ADS finds one AV, that AV dies" nor "ADS finds one AV, and gets to run off to safety". There should be a fight there. One player should be able to actually have a chance of killing another player and vice versa. However, while an ADS has an above average chance of killing any single infantry they encounter, an ADS is only threatened by infantry if they carry a small subset of weapons, and then, only if there are multiple infantry carrying that small set of weapons, apparently.
One player needs to be able to kill one player. If an AV and an ADS meet somewhere, they should each be capable of killing the other. And the AV should probably have a bit of an advantage, since their primary (or sole, in the case of swarms) role is to kill vehicles, whereas the ADS is much more versatile. And while the ADS has the chance to flee, the swarm launcher often does not.
Soraya Xel wrote:Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option.
Sigh.
Charlie ADSs could get shot down; when you'd come across a pilot who could escape every time is when you are fighting one who experienced 400m swarms or is otherwise supremely cagey. Yet again, what makes the ADS OP? A high K/DR? Well, as I've said, I've gotten a ridiculously high K/DR with a basic CalSent, but that's not OP, so it's obviously not K/DR.
So is it not dying? Except, as I said above, AV is handsomely rewarded with vehicle damage points. So really, it seems to boil down to the 'necessity' to confirm a full bodied kill that makes people so upset, right?
And as Alena Ventralis has asked many times: what is the role of the ADS then? Is it a murder machine? A glorified transport? How is it intended to operate, and what makes/made it OP? All I can see is that people are unsatisfied with the heaps of WP they get because what they want is to kill the vehicle.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
53
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Gabriella Grey wrote:I die quite a bit actually. But what are you going at is indifferent because the flux of feedback will over shadow most of what you maybe thinking is fine. My responses are far from bias. I have an Assault player, a logi, a scout and the hat goes deeper. I strongly suggest you looking from this aside from your own perspective. I am not sure if you mean this sarcastic or asking in sincerity. Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option.
I fly these things and last time I checked losing an average of 350k per match while maybe getting 5 - 10 kills isn't op
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2129
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships?
It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta.
10-14 deaths per match? Get good scrub. Even running STD gear I rarely hit that.
Dust was real! I was there!
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
53
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:I don't quite get the bit where you think it should be easier for a 30k point and shoot weapon to kill a 430k (after delta) ads than it is the other way round. ISK cost isn't a good balancing method. (It's actually a really bad one.) And ADSes got an incredibly high ISK efficiency rating anyhow. They were too cheap for their durability. And from personal experience, my swarm fit was close to 300k. And I would often lose three to six of them trying (and failing) to kill a single ADS.
Please go into 1st airborne chat and ask any pilot in there if they have ever fine isk positive from an extended period of time flying
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3617
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Please go into 1st airborne chat and ask any pilot in there if they have ever fine isk positive from an extended period of time flying
I could ask for a very biased opinion.
Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP.
I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
336
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
ADS are dead and just lolworthy if one shows up. Every 1 just runs to a supply depot and changes for swarms and shot you down allmost instantly. Waste of SP, ISK and time to actually get one. You are better off with a grimsness and a gunner then a ADS. Cause the grimsness can actually get some decent tank on without exploding instantly.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3617
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships?
It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta. 10-14 deaths per match? Get good scrub. Even running STD gear I rarely hit that.
I play a lot of spambush. Not 10-14 deaths per match there. I guess I die a little less often in Skirmish. Mostly because there's so much more running around. o_O
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3619
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:You are better off with a grimsness and a gunner then a ADS. Cause the grimsness can actually get some decent tank on without exploding instantly.
Two players working together should be a more powerful combination than running solo. (See, for instance, a heavy with a logi backing him.)
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
155
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
CELESTA AUNGM wrote:Hello, Gabriella! I can't contribute much to the ADS point of view reagarding the Swarm Missile gunfight, because I'm either DS transporter or DS door-gunner. When your standard DS gets the visual cue (or the hit) from the swarmer, it's a very different set of mechanics to gunslinging it out with the opponent. In the DS driver's mindset, I immediately want to hold still and continue to be a target, to get the Swarm Launcher to expose himself long enough for my gunner to AIM-DOWN-ZOOM-SIGHTS and engage him. I KNOW my gunner can zoom and get a better render of the Launcher than I can get as the driver. In the door turret-gunner's mindset, I can see that Launcher light up before all the missiles even leave his shoulder, and I PRAY my driver holds still and doesn't notice we're about to be hit by an initail swarm (yeah, it sounds callous to my driver), because I see a clean chance to zoom-aim and put a turret round right in the Launcher's mouth before he even lives to see his first volley harmlessly strike our Transport DS. But an ADS doesn't have that (I'd say "FAIR") counter advantage against the Swarm Launcher. Even if a DS driver can't "see" the opponent, her gunner has a crack at Zoom-locking on him with a turret as dangerously as he's Zoom-locking us, and the driver doesn't have to be so neck-crampingly positioned over the opponent for her gunner to defeat the Swarm Launcher. ...The ADS has no zoom, or early-visual, or latitude of firing-position, ... arguably NO FIGHTING advantage at all. Only a fleeing advantage, and a dev bias that's hell bent on MAKING you flee. These are variables that I expect make the RoF turret reduction a LOT easier for DS driver/gunner crews to live with than for ADS operators. The mechanics of how the DS or ADS "defends itself and fights back" is almost too different for them to be working with the same spec gun. (...too different to be carrying the same spec gun...MAYBE, that's the key to a solution). Those same variables are nearly impossible to argue to a Swarm Launcher carrier---he's got a totally different vision (literally)--he can't possibly agree that having "more rounds per second to make up for how hard it is to lock on him" is FAIR counterbalance for his "3 consecutive bullseyes on us"---and unfortunately the DS has now become the Moby **** that the obsessed Swarm carrier MUST BE ALLOWED TO KILL, OR ELSE THIS GAME IS BROKEN AND THE SWARM-PLAYER IS GOING TO KICK HIS PET DOG IN THE BELLY if CCP doesn't let him swarm-kill Celesta instead of just swarm-chasing her away. And I don't think these variables will carry any weight with CCP, because in a face-off with AV or other vehicles, they want your ADS to have to flee more than it has been doing in the past. The more aggressive a vehicle is able to be in a confrontation, the more CCP's "balance" solution is to make that vehicle have to flee sooner, and stay around less. I don't agree with that at all for an EVE game, but To CCP, you may be legitimately considered "more balanced" now.
Well said Celesta! I think you might be right about all of this. CCP's numbers were a great effort in balancing what they thought was what they thought was wrong but dropships just have so many variables mainly because they work on a wider space of variables. CCP has calculated the range Swarm users need but they constantly forget that speed, angle, and angle can instantly change their variables on what they think is the issue with dropships. I always hoped for my pilot suit, and fighter jet, but I thought they will make it ever into Dust or Legion for that matter. We are still missing other variants of vehicles, and turrets, yet if jets were to be introduced as to the infantries thoughts we will not see dropships in any desirable place. This frustrates me a lot because our dropship community have been on about different modules and turrets for vehicles that fly for the longest. It is a tall order but it should have been one done at the very beginning when they decided to put them into the game. I haven't flown any of my standard dropship fittings yet since the update, mainly because 2 of my gunners ran over to Destiny, and the other is doing life stuff! But please continue posting your thoughts and lets bring more dropship pilots here. Who knows perhaps we can create a petition for changes we seriously need!
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
336
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Bright Cloud wrote:You are better off with a grimsness and a gunner then a ADS. Cause the grimsness can actually get some decent tank on without exploding instantly. Two players working together should be a more powerful combination than running solo. (See, for instance, a heavy with a logi backing him.)
Even running solo swarms are a huge threat to ADS. I honestly lost count of how many dropships i shot down today as a cal scout with proto swarms and tripple damage mods.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
57
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I understand that the ADS pilots think differently. I literally do not believe ADS pilots have experienced a balanced gameplay, because vehicles have always been some level of overpowered. The fact that ADSes have been borderline indestructible has to end. Because it's unfair to everyone else.
Let me put it this way, if the ADS had not been nerfed, the price would've had to go up. A lot. Their effectiveness was incredible for the price they were paying.
You are still massively overstating our effectiveness. A single forge Gunner or tank blocks off over half the map from us even going near. Swarms will now do the same, which is ridiculous given it is a fire and forget kind of weapon (no aiming). People still have it in their heads that an ads should be easy to kill from before 1.7. Therefore everyone I kill (about 80%) are in some form of av fit when they respawn. I therefore get 5 - 10 kills (if I find a group) before they all hit me. At which point I have 3 choices:
Go high and try to fight (90% chance of lost ship)
run and recall (40% chance of lost ship from initial hits)
hide and return to fight after 5 - 10 mins (boring and back to square 1)
We don't like admitting it but a lot more of an effect can be had on the battle in a tank or even a scanning lav. We fly because we love it. Our main effect we actually have on the battle is clearing all the buildings of spawners and killing snipers.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3619
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Bright Cloud wrote:You are better off with a grimsness and a gunner then a ADS. Cause the grimsness can actually get some decent tank on without exploding instantly. Two players working together should be a more powerful combination than running solo. (See, for instance, a heavy with a logi backing him.) Even running solo swarms are a huge threat to ADS. I honestly lost count of how many dropships i shot down today as a cal scout with proto swarms and tripple damage mods.
When you're running solo, swarms SHOULD be a huge threat to you. Because they're entire job is to kill you.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3619
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
a brackers wrote:You are still massively overstating our effectiveness.
Nope. The numbers don't lie. CCP has statistics on this crud.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
809
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:37:00 -
[32] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I understand that the ADS pilots think differently. I literally do not believe ADS pilots have experienced a balanced gameplay, because vehicles have always been some level of overpowered. The fact that ADSes have been borderline indestructible has to end. Because it's unfair to everyone else.
Let me put it this way, if the ADS had not been nerfed, the price would've had to go up. A lot. Their effectiveness was incredible for the price they were paying.
Vehicles have always been in some way overpowered? Are you high? Do you remember 1.4-1.6? 400m Swarms that were more powerful than now; IAFGs that fired faster - those are what I remember when my Python had no real advantage and was just 1mil ISK down the drain whenever I pulled it out.
And again...there are many things that threaten an ADS: Forge Guns, Railguns (large and small) and Large Missiles are all devastating to an ADS. What you're actually saying is, "ADSs need to die to swarms a lot more" because currently they are very resilient to, but far from indestructible against Swarm Launchers, despite what you constantly say.
Price: you realise that every ADS pre-Delta cost upwards of 350k each (and that benchmark is running all militia modules/weapons) right? A standard ADS would usually set you back about 400-450k ISK, which is roughly two games worth of payout for a single ship. Too expensive? Yeah, definitely; too effective? Not really; it very much depends on what opposition (ie, AV presence) there is and how good the pilot is. Many times have I seen the '40-0' argument raised and to which I will always respond with my 37-1 STD CalSent which costs a fraction of your standard ADS hull alone (13k is 1/24.7th of the Charlie ADS hull cost.) So really, you are talking out of your second mouth here: ADSs in Charlie were the single most expensive single entities on the field.
Soraya Xel wrote:ISK cost isn't a good balancing method. (It's actually a really bad one.) And ADSes got an incredibly high ISK efficiency rating anyhow. They were too cheap for their durability.
And from personal experience, my swarm fit was close to 300k. And I would often lose three to six of them trying (and failing) to kill a single ADS.
And yet it remains a balancing point because that's what CCP have determined: so whether it's a good method or not, it is a method that is part of this game.
If your Swarm fit is close to 300k, you're using a PRO Logi with PRO equipment: which is entirely unnecessary to attack vehicles as a primary AV suit. The Commando (especially the MinCom) is by far more suited of the Swarm role than any Logi suit. I'm not a PRO Swarmer, but I can threaten any vehicle with my L3 STD MinCom suit with CBR7 any day of the week. That fit costs 22k.
Oh,and again, vehicle damage points...
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
336
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Why are you CPM? I clearly stated that i was the swarmer and not the other way around. Sometimes i wonder why we have some 1 like you who cant even comprehend basic sentences.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
58
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:Please go into 1st airborne chat and ask any pilot in there if they have ever fine isk positive from an extended period of time flying I could ask for a very biased opinion. Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP. I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots.
What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. ADS IS UNPROFITABLE IN ITS "OP" FORM SO YOU ARE GOING TO NERF IT BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS PAYOUT THAN U ALREADY GET FROM YOUR EASILY PROFITABLE ROLE.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3620
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kallas, ADSes weren't dying enough in general. ADSes were too cheap. I think nerfing them and making them cheaper was better than raising the price.
Balance between classes isn't made on anecdotal evidence. Everyone has pulled off a crazy 40/0 match once in something. (42/0 in a sniper was my personal best, during the heydey of Chromosome snipers being the best thing ever (and horribly overpowered).) The balance between classes is wrong when the average of a class, across every player who plays it, is incredibly high. The ADS was very simply the superior class in the game. To everything. The numbers are not public, but they exist, and they're conclusive.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
342
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:Please go into 1st airborne chat and ask any pilot in there if they have ever fine isk positive from an extended period of time flying I could ask for a very biased opinion. Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP. I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots. What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. ADS IS UNPROFITABLE IN ITS "OP" FORM SO YOU ARE GOING TO NERF IT BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS PAYOUT THAN U ALREADY GET FROM YOUR EASILY PROFITABLE ROLE.
Give it up mate, all that is wanted now is mass appealing game mechanics where you dont need to think and just point and shot to win the game. And appearently shoting a ADS with a forgegun was too much for simpletons to handle.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
157
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:Please go into 1st airborne chat and ask any pilot in there if they have ever fine isk positive from an extended period of time flying I could ask for a very biased opinion. Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP. I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots. What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. ADS IS UNPROFITABLE IN ITS "OP" FORM SO YOU ARE GOING TO NERF IT BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS PAYOUT THAN U ALREADY GET FROM YOUR EASILY PROFITABLE ROLE.
And you forgot the amount of times it takes to do matches to replace that dropship along with the dropsuit you are wearing. Statistically 9/10 most dropship pilots die during the crash, either by the dropship, infantry or another vehicle. We should really stop this with Soraya. This isn't helping us in a bit, and I am worried CCP will not take us serious to our concerns. Soraya does not with to understand this from another point of view. The formula used by CCP is not error free, despite the statistics, there is still human error. I just hope we hear from CCP soonGǪ 
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3620
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
a brackers wrote:What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches.
I would love CCP Rattati to post those numbers.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3620
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:I just hope we hear from CCP soonGǪ
I would assume CCP will wait a few days to really respond to collect real data, rather than player tears. And then use that to analyze whether the changes in Delta were too much or not enough.
Also, bugfixes. There's some bugs in Delta too it seems.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
58
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
Yh but as I said I'm not in it for the points. I love flying. If rattati gave my a free python (with a bit higher maneuverability and speed) and a gun that shot nice coloured baloons at people I would be happy. I'm in it because I love flying, and I'm not going to give in because someone wants to play cod
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
346
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
Oh and your "numbers" are massively flawed. You know why in average ADS dont die so often like 3-4 times per match? Cause once a pilot gets shot down by a forgegunner/redline rail tank he wont call in a 2nd dropship cause that would mean risking another 500k ISK. Which would have ment that he put around 1 million ISK onto the table while the proto forger maybe risked like 150k ISK. Now take your numbers and put them where the sun doesnt shine.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
63
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. I would love CCP Rattati to post those numbers.
You are one of the only 12 people in the community rattati believes exist so ask him to post them (remember ship losses per match, not deaths)
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3621
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Yh but as I said I'm not in it for the points. I love flying. If rattati gave my a free python (with a bit higher maneuverability and speed) and a gun that shot nice coloured baloons at people I would be happy. I'm in it because I love flying, and I'm not going to give in because someone wants to play cod
If you aren't big on the gun that kills people, you could try a standard dropship. They just got buffed.
Bright Cloud wrote:Oh and your "numbers" are massively flawed. You know why in average ADS dont die so often like 3-4 times per match? Cause once a pilot gets shot down by a forgegunner/redline rail tank he wont call in a 2nd dropship cause that would mean risking another 500k ISK. Which would have ment that he put around 1 million ISK onto the table while the proto forger maybe risked like 150k ISK. Now take your numbers and put them where the sun doesnt shine.
Rattati is confident in his numbers.
a brackers wrote:You are one of the only 12 people in the community rattati believes exist so ask him to post them (remember ship losses per match, not deaths)
I asked. More than once. I definitely would like more numbers shared with the community.
Rattati definitely would like to hear from more than 12 people in the community though. o_O It is possible he hears people but knows they're wrong. Rattati is like God. Sometimes God's greatest gift is unanswered prayers. There's a Garth Brooks song about it.
I am hopeful in a few days once there's some good statistics on how Delta changes are performing, he will indicate if the metrics support your comments. If the metrics say Delta went too far, I'll be the first one to jump on the train to give ADSes a bit of a buff.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
63
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:Oh and your "numbers" are massively flawed. You know why in average ADS dont die so often like 3-4 times per match? Cause once a pilot gets shot down by a forgegunner/redline rail tank he wont call in a 2nd dropship cause that would mean risking another 500k ISK. Which would have ment that he put around 1 million ISK onto the table while the proto forger maybe risked like 150k ISK. Now take your numbers and put them where the sun doesnt shine.
Unfortunately some people don't seem to actually play the game. They just look at the numbers and decide if something looks op from them
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
63
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:Yh but as I said I'm not in it for the points. I love flying. If rattati gave my a free python (with a bit higher maneuverability and speed) and a gun that shot nice coloured baloons at people I would be happy. I'm in it because I love flying, and I'm not going to give in because someone wants to play cod If you aren't big on the gun that kills people, you could try a standard dropship. They just got buffed.
Yh and they move a grand total of 1m per year. They fly worse than that giant Russian heavy lift helo. (Look it up)
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3621
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
I said a bit more above. Didn't realize I was posting in an edit of my post rather than making a new one. :/ And yes, a big part of that post is a troll. I do that sometimes.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
813
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas, ADSes weren't dying enough in general. ADSes were too cheap. I think nerfing them and making them cheaper was better than raising the price.
You must be joking!? Price was too cheap?!
I agree that a nerf was required but Delta is way too far. AB cool down? Fair enough, it means that engagements are more spread out, which means ADSs have a lot less time in the thick of it, reducing their impact, totally legit and I'm even warming up to the current numbers (even though I think they're still a little too long.) Swarm speed/acceleration? Again, fine, they're missiles and should be damn fast: only issue is the tracking radius nerf is utterly irrelevant. ROF nerf? Again, not unreasonable, but has hammered the Incubus into the ground like an RDV and the Python is barely passable and only capable of engaging infantry who don't fight back - ROF nerfing is fine, but what such an enormous nerf has done is trivialise the actual ability of an ADS to do anything meaningful.
AB cool down could do with being a little faster, though not by much.
Swarm speed is fine, tracking radius needs to be less still, because it is not achieving the intended goal (making it possible to outmanoeuvre them.)
ROF nerf needs to be lessened or replaced to produce a newely define role for the ADS.
Soraya Xel wrote:Balance between classes isn't made on anecdotal evidence. Everyone has pulled off a crazy 40/0 match once in something. (42/0 in a sniper was my personal best, during the heydey of Chromosome snipers being the best thing ever (and horribly overpowered).) The balance between classes is wrong when the average of a class, across every player who plays it, is incredibly high. The ADS was very simply the superior class in the game. To everything. The numbers are not public, but they exist, and they're conclusive.
Yes, I'm sure everyone has pulled off crazy K/DRs in random fittings; why does this mean that the odd crazy ADS K/DR is suddenly the end of the world? My personal best is somewhere around 25-0/1 and I know I have rarely seen any enemy pilots going like that when I'm against them (though that's probably because I pulled out my Rail Incubus and shot them down/hounded them) - so, Mr Numbers: how commonly did an ADS get a ridiculous K/DR? How many times was that pilot part of a small subset that consistently outperformed newer pilots? Also, how many unique characters fly an ADS routinely?
If numbers are so important to the balance of things, maybe it's time to actually share them?
Edit:
There is an expression used about explaining things: show, don't tell. Show us how OP ADSs are, don't tell us. From our POV we are being chased off by invisible assailants and escaping by the skin of our teeth: yet you constantly paint us as some monsters who will utterly dominate everything under the sun just by farting in the general direction of bad guys.
Show us the evidence. Don't tell us about it and expect us to swallow it.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
65
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas, ADSes weren't dying enough in general. ADSes were too cheap. I think nerfing them and making them cheaper was better than raising the price. You must be joking!? Price was too cheap?!I agree that a nerf was required but Delta is way too far. AB cool down? Fair enough, it means that engagements are more spread out, which means ADSs have a lot less time in the thick of it, reducing their impact, totally legit and I'm even warming up to the current numbers (even though I think they're still a little too long.) Swarm speed/acceleration? Again, fine, they're missiles and should be damn fast: only issue is the tracking radius nerf is utterly irrelevant. ROF nerf? Again, not unreasonable, but has hammered the Incubus into the ground like an RDV and the Python is barely passable and only capable of engaging infantry who don't fight back - ROF nerfing is fine, but what such an enormous nerf has done is trivialise the actual ability of an ADS to do anything meaningful. AB cool down could do with being a little faster, though not by much. Swarm speed is fine, tracking radius needs to be less still, because it is not achieving the intended goal (making it possible to outmanoeuvre them.) ROF nerf needs to be lessened or replaced to produce a newely define role for the ADS. Soraya Xel wrote:Balance between classes isn't made on anecdotal evidence. Everyone has pulled off a crazy 40/0 match once in something. (42/0 in a sniper was my personal best, during the heydey of Chromosome snipers being the best thing ever (and horribly overpowered).) The balance between classes is wrong when the average of a class, across every player who plays it, is incredibly high. The ADS was very simply the superior class in the game. To everything. The numbers are not public, but they exist, and they're conclusive. Yes, I'm sure everyone has pulled off crazy K/DRs in random fittings; why does this mean that the odd crazy ADS K/DR is suddenly the end of the world? My personal best is somewhere around 25-0/1 and I know I have rarely seen any enemy pilots going like that when I'm against them (though that's probably because I pulled out my Rail Incubus and shot them down/hounded them) - so, Mr Numbers: how commonly did an ADS get a ridiculous K/DR? How many times was that pilot part of a small subset that consistently outperformed newer pilots? Also, how many unique characters fly an ADS routinely? If numbers are so important to the balance of things, maybe it's time to actually share them?
Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :)
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3621
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:05:00 -
[49] - Quote
Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.
But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.
Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
813
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:06:00 -
[50] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :)
As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted 
Alt of Halla Murr.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
67
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:a brackers wrote:Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :) As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted
I know. He replied. Haven't actually read that yet, probably should but still nice to have a joke while waiting for his reply
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3626
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:a brackers wrote:Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :) As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted
I'm actually trolling through like both the GD and F&ID boards, while also writing lengthy wordy posts. I actually should leave and drive home, so there might be a big gap where I'm silent soon.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
67
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.
But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.
Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.
It's only simular to shield or armor skills. If you cannot fit one of the 3 or 4 survivable fits (some of which require pretty hefty skills) then you die pretty much instantly. Ever wondered why every python you see has the exact same health, same with Incubus.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
67
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:14:00 -
[54] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:a brackers wrote:Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :) As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted I'm actually trolling through like both the GD and F&ID boards, while also writing lengthy wordy posts. I actually should leave and drive home, so there might be a big gap where I'm silent soon.
Yh I was joking, and at least I'm guessing you have a keyboard. I'm doing all of this from a phone and it's past midnight so I really should get some sleep. Also any particular reason why you can't share those numbers?
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
814
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.
Well, to be fair I wasn't necessarily meaning cough up the numbers now or else more that the numbers should be shown in the nebulous near future.
As far as averages are concerned, what correlation is there between those high K/DRs and pilots who have been around since the dark ages of 400m swarms?
Soraya Xel wrote:But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.
Indeed, and I appreciate that fact. Which is why so many pilots have been giving first impressions and why I have stated what I believe should be looked at next for ADS balance.
Soraya Xel wrote:Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.
Agreed, I know I had my fair share of running scared silly against L5 Incubi when I was just skilling up, but that does not warrant nerf batting into nonexistence. And I'm not advocating SP = better...but SP does equal better. Does a PRO Commando not have a significant DPS advantage over a L1 Commando? Does an L5 AmScout not have an enormous EWar advantage over an L5 Amarr Light Frame?
Skills are part and parcel of DUST: the racial ADS skills are 100% equivalent to Dropsuit Command skills. If anything, the ADS tree needs a restructuring because of the differences between the NDSs and the ADSs. Really, the NDSs need their own tree similar to the ADS tree with a focus on different skills, like how Logistics and Assault have similar suits but radically different bonuses and slots.
The ROF bonus was not, in and of itself, OP: no more so than any +2% damage per level bonus is. In fact, ROF is less OP than straight damage due to reloading and clip size keeping applied DPS in relative check. Was the bonus too high? Yeah, I can agree to that. Is the bonus too low now? Yes quite flatly, yes and more to point is worse for the Incubus than the Python due to the ROF nerf double whammy.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
67
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.
But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.
Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.
Also quick random thought relating to skills being "too strong". Why the did the already op remote explosive get made so the skill increased its damage AND the number carried when previously they all had the same damage. The skill for re now gives over 40% more damage for proto and 50% more deployable at once
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3629
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:20:00 -
[57] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Also any particular reason why you can't share those numbers?
Because I can't share anything CCP hasn't already said. I can say the ADS was really OP because CCP Rattati said the ADS was really OP. He did not post the statistics of ADS performance during Charlie, so neither can I. I can also throw in my own personal opinion and anecdotal experience. But I cannot share things CCP has shared with us that isn't public. Even when I think those things should be public. All I can do is beg and plead CCP to make them public.
I don't know how you personally feel about most of CCP Rattati's work, but I think it's been incredibly good, personally. He's a numbers guy. Everything he does is, at some point, based on the numbers. Even when we have to figure out how to explain why the numbers are how they are. ADSes were OP. People will not win arguments claiming they were not. Even many die hard ADS pilots now admit they were OP.
People are definitely questioning if the nerf was too far. I can't tell you, because I don't know. I don't yet have the personal experience or the numbers on Delta. But if it went too far, the numbers will show it, and then it will be tweaked again. Balance is a continual process. And the amount and content of feedback here will determine how much attention is paid to those things (for instance, I'm sure everyone will look VERY hard at Delta numbers for the ADS, given the amount of complaints).
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3629
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Also quick random thought relating to skills being "too strong". Why the did the already op remote explosive get made so the skill increased its damage AND the number carried when previously they all had the same damage. The skill for re now gives over 40% more damage for proto and 50% more deployable at once
Personally I haven't paid a lot of attention to the RE lately, so I do not know. I will try to remember to look at that, and see if I think it is dumb or not.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
67
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:Also any particular reason why you can't share those numbers? Because I can't share anything CCP hasn't already said. I can say the ADS was really OP because CCP Rattati said the ADS was really OP. He did not post the statistics of ADS performance during Charlie, so neither can I. I can also throw in my own personal opinion and anecdotal experience. But I cannot share things CCP has shared with us that isn't public. Even when I think those things should be public. All I can do is beg and plead CCP to make them public. I don't know how you personally feel about most of CCP Rattati's work, but I think it's been incredibly good, personally. He's a numbers guy. Everything he does is, at some point, based on the numbers. Even when we have to figure out how to explain why the numbers are how they are. ADSes were OP. People will not win arguments claiming they were not. Even many die hard ADS pilots now admit they were OP. People are definitely questioning if the nerf was too far. I can't tell you, because I don't know. I don't yet have the personal experience or the numbers on Delta. But if it went too far, the numbers will show it, and then it will be tweaked again. Balance is a continual process. And the amount and content of feedback here will determine how much attention is paid to those things (for instance, I'm sure everyone will look VERY hard at Delta numbers for the ADS, given the amount of complaints).
I know, rattati has done a lot more for dust in the time he has been here than was done in all the time before. I just know from experience it takes a while to un break things which have been broken, even if rattati said it will immediately be rectified.
I also understand that numbers don't always work, and not all numbers are accessible (you can easily tell which numbers are when you submit reimbursement requests, eg when the red line kills you with 15 seconds left in it (I don't think your swarmer has that problem))
based on the sentiments of 100% of pilots I've spoken to of which none of them actually thought they were op, I guess the numbers are lying.
Also, the us "admitting" they WERE op is a basic psychology trick to get rattati to see sense. U make the other person think everyone will be happy with a smaller change, they are more likely to make the change smaller.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
67
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:33:00 -
[60] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:Also quick random thought relating to skills being "too strong". Why the did the already op remote explosive get made so the skill increased its damage AND the number carried when previously they all had the same damage. The skill for re now gives over 40% more damage for proto and 50% more deployable at once Personally I haven't paid a lot of attention to the RE lately, so I do not know. I will try to remember to look at that, and see if I think it is dumb or not.
Just a thought that came to the top of my head given that was last hotfix and now there is massive difference between std and pro.
Btw dont quote me on the numbers (it's too late for mental maths) but they seem approximately right without turning on my ps3 and checking.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3632
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage.
For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO.
To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP.
Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
815
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP.
Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed.
I'd like to reiterate my question about the correlation between certain pilots and the high KDRs.
Please never use that word again with regard to development/balancing.
*shudder*
Alt of Halla Murr.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
68
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage.
For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO.
To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP.
Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon.
I'm basing my op ness off the ofher fits I run:
Assault forge (op - I can kill most tanks and nearly all dropships which arent smart enough to run without dying)
gal sentinel g1 (seems reasonable. Not too op. Good point defence but balanced cus rubbish at range)
Mlt medic suit (I get most kills per match and highest kdr in this as I can run in with no worry of losing it. )
charlie python (worked well against a bad tank. Both survived against a good tank. Died to rail snipe tanks or rail instilarions I once went within 75m of- damn those things need to forget once in out of 75m and never shot at it. Against normal infantry I'm op, although they quickly swap to any form of av and have a 70 % chance of driving me off, overall 50% chance I kill the single guy, 40% he kills me. 10% we then avoid each other. More then 1 av and I'm almost granted to lose the ship. Ramming ds about 40 60 in favor of him hitting me and both of us dying)
Delta pytgon (almost all tanks survive. They now have no fear of me at all as their shields recharge faster than I'm hitting. I can no longer strafe as I don't have the rof to kill anyone. Therefore I'm stationary when the swarms hit -which I couldn't see coming- I have about a 10 % chance of killing swarmer while running away, 80% chance of him killing me and 10% I escape and recall. One swarmer shouldn't do that. Also im getting about a fifth the kills as there is enough cover almost all infantry can get safe before I kill them
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3632
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
Soon and Soon(TM) are actually two different words.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
819
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Posted - 2014.09.25 00:04:00 -
[65] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Soon and Soon(TM) are actually two different words.
Too close for comfort...
Edit:
Might I often some synonyms for use instead?
Quickly, rapidly, shortly or promptly would all be good without conjuring images of never-to-exist-in-DUST PVE, Amarr/Minmatar vehicles...or the whole list of broken promises and lying Devs... :(
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3638
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Posted - 2014.09.25 00:25:00 -
[66] - Quote
Shortly would've been better. Thought about it on the drive home.
I actually really really wish Judge Rhadamanthus was up to his usual things right now. I'm sure we'd disagree (we usually do), but since he has the same data I do, and he's really really good at numbers, I think it would be really valuable.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Gabriella Grey
THE HANDS OF DEATH
157
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Posted - 2014.09.25 00:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Link To Other Discussion
Please Dropship pilots bring your attention to this forum thread and post your feedback. I don't think this one is ever going to be seen by CCP Also best to post on the other Forums that you find about dropships as well.
Always Grey Skies
Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
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Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
305
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Posted - 2014.09.26 03:43:00 -
[68] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage.
For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO.
To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP.
Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon.
I took the time to read the last four pages of posts on this discussion, and to be honest Soraya Xel I disagree with most of your statements.
Here is my background in Dust. 35million Lifetime skills points focused in on ADS (Python) maxed out, Proto Anti-Vehicle fits (Swarms, Proxy, Forges), Proto Assault (caldari and rail rifles), Proto Commando (gallente with AR and PLC), and ADV Scout (caldari). Also I have a lot of experiance with milita vehicles with plenty of kills with my 20G Railgun and Sica Blaster tanks. overall
I feel I am pretty diverse in dust and have been playing for quite some time.
My opinion:
I feel that ADS is not "useless" but its in my experiance after losing tons of ADS in a few days, I feel that ADS is too weak for the current changes in Delta Patch. Here is my reasoning.
1) PRE-DELTA Anti-Vehicle Advantages that need to taken into account.
- AV players have several advantages that ADS pilots do not have such as the First movers advantage. We have all see plenty of evidence of rendering issues between infantry and airborne combat, which gives the AV an immediate advantage over the ADS. The AV player will always be able to fire of 1 volley and start his/her 2nd volley before the ADS pilot has identified his position due to rendering.
- They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different...
AV gets War Points based on Assists (50 WP), destruction, (150 WP), kills (per 50 WP), Damages scale (75 WP) and Intel (15 WP). While ADS only gets Assists (25 WP), Kills (per 50 WP), Vehicle Kill Assist (35 WP) and Intel (15 WP)
Note: This is a scenario revolving around AV vs ADS (The AV player is not involved within Vehicles as he cannot use his AV equipment until he leaves his vehicle so Vehicle damage or destruction does not play into account in these numbers.
- AV players also have advantages of AI Installation support, its may seem silly but I have witness plenty of turning tides where an AI installation gets a few shots or damages a ADS a few times allowing the destruction of that vehicle.
- AV players also have advantages in the terrain, where players can use peek a boo tactics within buildings or bridges to hurt ADS players (again rendering and War points play additional advantages). ADS pilots cannot hide withing compounds as the walls do massive amounts of damage if they are so much as tap them, Though the ADS can gain altitude or retreat to red line the ADS has to deal with first movers advantage again to re-engage target he/she was firing at previously. Granted ADS can Lock down a Compound once within fire support range which enemies are rending and is in superior fire position but Tanks and even a well place Turret mounted LAV can do the exact same thing, so how can these vehicles used in tactical situations not be held equally accountable as the ADS?
- Finally AV players have a much larger target to fire upon that ADS pilots have, and this is because of how the ADS functions. A Single Infantry Unit is 1/9th the size of a Dropship, which with higher altitude (assume that player has rendering in) is even smaller from the ADS point of view. The AV's see a much larger target to spot plus the first movers advantage that AV players have over ADS pilot.
2) POST DELTA Anti-Vehicle Advantages - Note: all advantages Pre-Delta are still present
- Swarm buffs have allowed a stronger destructive game against ADS with increase Speed, acceleration and with the additions to nerfing the After Burner ( I think is a smart move given Swarms always were effective at nullifying and area denying ADS but not destroying, I always felt that Forge Guns and Railguns did very effective jobs destroying an ADS but swarms needed abit of buffing)
- The Lower ROF for Turrets (Missle's and Railgun's) for on Racial ADS have left drive by shooting to be substantially less effective than PRE-DELTA. So hit and run tactics for ADS is not an options as rendering prevents ADS pilots from see what needs to be shot leaving them to shoot blindly with a low ROF as they cannot splash damage a wide area to combat the first movers advantage. So essentially ADS cannot do Hit and Run tactics, nor can they stay stationary to allow rendering to rend in the AV players as they will lose to first movers advantage, Swarms buffs, and After Burner nerfing.
(I completely disagree with ROF nerfing as I felt that it was not the true problem to ADS being so powerful PRE-DELTA. I felt that ADS was too powerful due to the bug which allow bonus python skills to stack. For me, Denying or Destroying Solo ADS pilots PRE-Delta was not a huge problem, but the additional side gunner getting the bonus for each pilots skill in the ADS allow for a devastating vehicle that was needing to be addressed. This was the wrong way to fix that issue.)
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Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
305
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Posted - 2014.09.26 03:51:00 -
[69] - Quote
additionally I wanted to include that Data and Numbers are a great source of information and even a better tool for predicting future outcomes. Unfortunately, Data is not a perfect tool to predict future outcomes as it is based on real world events which have multiple variables but only give us the information to predict a perfect world outcome.
For example I suspect Data collect around ADS pilots are slightly inaccurate due to the side gunners getting additional bonus for multiple pilots within a single drop ship. That the True Data revolving around a single pilot within a ADS is slightly above balance which would have been more deserving of a lighter touch on the ROF nerfing. |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3732
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Posted - 2014.09.26 07:33:00 -
[70] - Quote
Minor Treat wrote: They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different...
This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_-
Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have.
- You have significantly more health in both shields and armor.
- Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry.
- Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle.
- You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die.
- You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free.
- You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important.
But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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a brackers
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
77
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Posted - 2014.09.27 19:47:00 -
[71] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Minor Treat wrote: They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different...
This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_- Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have. - You have significantly more health in both shields and armor. - Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry. - Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle. - You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die. - You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free. - You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important. But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was.
Omfg. Ads is in no way even slightly profitable, neither has it ever been.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
1820
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Posted - 2014.09.28 01:37:00 -
[72] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:a brackers wrote:You are still massively overstating our effectiveness. Nope. The numbers don't lie. CCP has statistics on this crud.
Nor do the numbers tell the entire story. An example: the longbow is a superior weapon in every way to the musket. It is more accurate, can shoot faster, requires less maintenance, can be made my a single person, and works in foul weather. Why then did the Patriots in the Revolutionary War use muskets instead of longbows? The numbers show us that the bow is superior to the musket, but the numbers are leaving out some crucial parts. First, it takes far more training time to be proficient with a bow than with a musket. You must begin practicing with a bow at a young age (most tribes began bow training at 7 years of age) while muskets take about a week to learn proficiently. Next, muskets make a tremendously loud noise, and this provides a psychological advantage to war. Loud noises are scary. That's the point of the war cry; making noise to scare your opponent. So the musket going BLAM BLAM BLAM versus the bow going twoink twoink twoink means the musket user can scare the bow user off, even though the bow user has the advantage of range, accuracy, and fire rate.
In this way, the numbers (which by the way, none of the community has seen) may show dropships as being OP, but those spreadsheets aren't showing you the whole story. They don't show how I use my blaster tanks to run interference for my friends Dergle and Boss SobanRe, drawing AV fire for them so they can swoop in and annihilate the swarm nest. They don't show how my faction warfare friends use dropships to get people to spawn in AV fits so that our infantry players can push the point while facing mainly a bunch of sidearms to our rifles. They don't show how I used my Python to fling two HMG users on top of a water tower where a nest of forges was dug in, forges that had shot me down twice before we got the idea to send in someone to deal with them.
You can't base everything solely on the numbers. You must include how those numbers are being used before you can call something OP or not. This is why the ADS community has been offering to provide ADS to Rattati to show him what it's like from the cockpit of an ADS, an offer that I still regard as available to him should he want to fly with me. He seems to have numbers and his experiences on the ground, but he's missing a crucial part of the equation: any experience in the air.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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Apocalyptic Destroyer
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
141
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Posted - 2014.09.28 02:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships?
It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta.
Just because you are a horrible player that tends to "die every 90 seconds" gives you no reason to bash the ADS. Skill into it and actually use it before you criticize it.
- Pain is weakness leaving the body.
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Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
312
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Posted - 2014.09.28 17:04:00 -
[74] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Minor Treat wrote: They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different...
This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_- Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have. - You have significantly more health in both shields and armor. - Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry. - Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle. - You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die. - You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free. - You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important. But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was.
Look if you won't listen to a member of the community of Dust 514 than I encourage you to listen to one of the CPM members instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967QvZ5PPT4&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3829
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 14:38:00 -
[75] - Quote
Minor, as blunt as I was last week, I've gotten an incredible amount of support for it. There is a small community, that of ADS pilots, is upset about it. I feel my job is to represent the larger body of the community, which seems to be comfortable with the reality that the ADS was OP as heck.
I am pretty sure Judge as I have quite differing opinions on the ADS. I am actually completely okay with that, as generally, it means we are each representing different voices in the community to CCP. I think that's a really good thing. My biggest issue right now, is that I wish Judge were around to ensure both sides were fairly represented. But unfortunately, he's had Internet access issues of late.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
312
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 15:07:00 -
[76] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Minor, as blunt as I was last week, I've gotten an incredible amount of support for it. There is a small community, that of ADS pilots, is upset about it. I feel my job is to represent the larger body of the community, which seems to be comfortable with the reality that the ADS was OP as heck.
I am pretty sure Judge as I have quite differing opinions on the ADS. I am actually completely okay with that, as generally, it means we are each representing different voices in the community to CCP. I think that's a really good thing. My biggest issue right now, is that I wish Judge were around to ensure both sides were fairly represented. But unfortunately, he's had Internet access issues of late.
I can respect the support, my point of the matter is if your gonna disagree thats totally fine, if you think my arguments are flaw I am okay with that. But I don't appreciate saying that ADS being OP or not is not a discussion as it is, the point of a discussion is to bring your topic to the table, bring your evidence and supported reasons, and than conclude with your final thoughts. Without these discussion wither something is OP will become a one sided as not all voices will be heard, and everyone deserves to say their thoughts.
That said, I do not disagree with you that the ADS was too strong pre-delta. The list I included was to point out situations unique to ADS pilots during the nerf, without including these issue's you threaten to not only nerf ADS too much but it will never see true AV balancing. I believe most of Delta AV buffs were a good idea, I like the buff to swarms and nerfing ADS afterburners, the only one I have a problem with is the rate of fire nerf. It was originally 10% now its only 3% (that is a 70% nerf), we have had this problem in the past before where certain weapons get Nerf so hard its nearly unusable and the community has spoken up about it saying little nerfs are more appropriate. 70% is not a little nerf. This situation is the equivalent to the Flaylock nerf back in 1.3 uprising.
Its my believe that the ADS should be more deserving of nerfing between 30-50 percent nerfing on the ADS rate of fire. 70% is so overboard that it makes the python no longer a ADS options as the rate of fire nerf is so hard, the incubus in the only options for airborne uses. How is it fair to limit ADS pilots who use pythons to the incubus which has nearly the same rate of fire but with more survivalbility? Essentially there are two weapons in the sky, but now we can only use one as they are no real incentives to use the other one is the other is simply better in this current patch. |
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