The problem is, it shouldn't be "ADS finds one AV, that AV dies" nor "ADS finds one AV, and gets to run off to safety". There should be a fight there. One player should be able to actually have a chance of killing another player and vice versa. However, while an ADS has an above average chance of killing any single infantry they encounter, an ADS is only threatened by infantry if they carry a small subset of weapons, and then, only if there are multiple infantry carrying that small set of weapons, apparently.

One player needs to be able to kill one player. If an AV and an ADS meet somewhere, they should each be capable of killing the other. And the AV should probably have a bit of an advantage, since their primary (or sole, in the case of swarms) role is to kill vehicles, whereas the ADS is much more versatile. And while the ADS has the chance to flee, the swarm launcher often does not.

Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option.

ISK cost isn't a good balancing method. (It's actually a really bad one.) And ADSes got an incredibly high ISK efficiency rating anyhow. They were too cheap for their durability.

And from personal experience, my swarm fit was close to 300k. And I would often lose three to six of them trying (and failing) to kill a single ADS.

I understand that the ADS pilots think differently. I literally do not believe ADS pilots have experienced a balanced gameplay, because vehicles have always been some level of overpowered. The fact that ADSes have been borderline indestructible has to end. Because it's unfair to everyone else.

Let me put it this way, if the ADS had not been nerfed, the price would've had to go up. A lot. Their effectiveness was incredible for the price they were paying.

I could ask for a very biased opinion.

Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP.

I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots.

I would love CCP Rattati to post those numbers.

Oh and your "numbers" are massively flawed. You know why in average ADS dont die so often like 3-4 times per match? Cause once a pilot gets shot down by a forgegunner/redline rail tank he wont call in a 2nd dropship cause that would mean risking another 500k ISK. Which would have ment that he put around 1 million ISK onto the table while the proto forger maybe risked like 150k ISK. Now take your numbers and put them where the sun doesnt shine.

If you aren't big on the gun that kills people, you could try a standard dropship. They just got buffed.

You must be joking!? Price was too cheap?!

I agree that a nerf was required but Delta is way too far. AB cool down? Fair enough, it means that engagements are more spread out, which means ADSs have a lot less time in the thick of it, reducing their impact, totally legit and I'm even warming up to the current numbers (even though I think they're still a little too long.) Swarm speed/acceleration? Again, fine, they're missiles and should be damn fast: only issue is the tracking radius nerf is utterly irrelevant. ROF nerf? Again, not unreasonable, but has hammered the Incubus into the ground like an RDV and the Python is barely passable and only capable of engaging infantry who don't fight back - ROF nerfing is fine, but what such an enormous nerf has done is trivialise the actual ability of an ADS to do anything meaningful.

AB cool down could do with being a little faster, though not by much.
Swarm speed is fine, tracking radius needs to be less still, because it is not achieving the intended goal (making it possible to outmanoeuvre them.)
ROF nerf needs to be lessened or replaced to produce a newely define role for the ADS.



Yes, I'm sure everyone has pulled off crazy K/DRs in random fittings; why does this mean that the odd crazy ADS K/DR is suddenly the end of the world? My personal best is somewhere around 25-0/1 and I know I have rarely seen any enemy pilots going like that when I'm against them (though that's probably because I pulled out my Rail Incubus and shot them down/hounded them) - so, Mr Numbers: how commonly did an ADS get a ridiculous K/DR? How many times was that pilot part of a small subset that consistently outperformed newer pilots? Also, how many unique characters fly an ADS routinely?

If numbers are so important to the balance of things, maybe it's time to actually share them?

As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted

Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.

But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.

Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.

I'm actually trolling through like both the GD and F&ID boards, while also writing lengthy wordy posts. I actually should leave and drive home, so there might be a big gap where I'm silent soon.

Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.

But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.

Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.

Because I can't share anything CCP hasn't already said. I can say the ADS was really OP because CCP Rattati said the ADS was really OP. He did not post the statistics of ADS performance during Charlie, so neither can I. I can also throw in my own personal opinion and anecdotal experience. But I cannot share things CCP has shared with us that isn't public. Even when I think those things should be public. All I can do is beg and plead CCP to make them public.

I don't know how you personally feel about most of CCP Rattati's work, but I think it's been incredibly good, personally. He's a numbers guy. Everything he does is, at some point, based on the numbers. Even when we have to figure out how to explain why the numbers are how they are. ADSes were OP. People will not win arguments claiming they were not. Even many die hard ADS pilots now admit they were OP.

People are definitely questioning if the nerf was too far. I can't tell you, because I don't know. I don't yet have the personal experience or the numbers on Delta. But if it went too far, the numbers will show it, and then it will be tweaked again. Balance is a continual process. And the amount and content of feedback here will determine how much attention is paid to those things (for instance, I'm sure everyone will look VERY hard at Delta numbers for the ADS, given the amount of complaints).

Personally I haven't paid a lot of attention to the RE lately, so I do not know. I will try to remember to look at that, and see if I think it is dumb or not.

Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage.

For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO.

To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP.

Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon.