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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
808
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships?
It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta.
I can go for several minutes not dying as an infantry suit. Really, both yours and my statements are anecdotal. And again: what's the point of vehicle damage points if driving off a vehicle is not enough? Either, vehicle damage is supposed to reward AV when they fail to finish a vehicle off; or AV is supposed to destroy vehicle all the time such that vehicle damage points are an unnecessary reward and AV/V balance is off.
Quite simply, this is a question that should b answered by Rattati, perhaps you could pose it to him for me (if he doesn't respond here) - is one AV player supposed to destroy one vehicle player in a one-on-on situation in evenly matched circumstances? If yes: why is AV so handsomely rewarded (ie, WP rewards for soloing a vehicle are very high); if not, then should the balance point for AV/V not be more powerful AV and cheaper vehicles?
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
809
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:The problem is, it shouldn't be "ADS finds one AV, that AV dies" nor "ADS finds one AV, and gets to run off to safety". There should be a fight there. One player should be able to actually have a chance of killing another player and vice versa. However, while an ADS has an above average chance of killing any single infantry they encounter, an ADS is only threatened by infantry if they carry a small subset of weapons, and then, only if there are multiple infantry carrying that small set of weapons, apparently.
One player needs to be able to kill one player. If an AV and an ADS meet somewhere, they should each be capable of killing the other. And the AV should probably have a bit of an advantage, since their primary (or sole, in the case of swarms) role is to kill vehicles, whereas the ADS is much more versatile. And while the ADS has the chance to flee, the swarm launcher often does not.
Soraya Xel wrote:Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option.
Sigh.
Charlie ADSs could get shot down; when you'd come across a pilot who could escape every time is when you are fighting one who experienced 400m swarms or is otherwise supremely cagey. Yet again, what makes the ADS OP? A high K/DR? Well, as I've said, I've gotten a ridiculously high K/DR with a basic CalSent, but that's not OP, so it's obviously not K/DR.
So is it not dying? Except, as I said above, AV is handsomely rewarded with vehicle damage points. So really, it seems to boil down to the 'necessity' to confirm a full bodied kill that makes people so upset, right?
And as Alena Ventralis has asked many times: what is the role of the ADS then? Is it a murder machine? A glorified transport? How is it intended to operate, and what makes/made it OP? All I can see is that people are unsatisfied with the heaps of WP they get because what they want is to kill the vehicle.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
809
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I understand that the ADS pilots think differently. I literally do not believe ADS pilots have experienced a balanced gameplay, because vehicles have always been some level of overpowered. The fact that ADSes have been borderline indestructible has to end. Because it's unfair to everyone else.
Let me put it this way, if the ADS had not been nerfed, the price would've had to go up. A lot. Their effectiveness was incredible for the price they were paying.
Vehicles have always been in some way overpowered? Are you high? Do you remember 1.4-1.6? 400m Swarms that were more powerful than now; IAFGs that fired faster - those are what I remember when my Python had no real advantage and was just 1mil ISK down the drain whenever I pulled it out.
And again...there are many things that threaten an ADS: Forge Guns, Railguns (large and small) and Large Missiles are all devastating to an ADS. What you're actually saying is, "ADSs need to die to swarms a lot more" because currently they are very resilient to, but far from indestructible against Swarm Launchers, despite what you constantly say.
Price: you realise that every ADS pre-Delta cost upwards of 350k each (and that benchmark is running all militia modules/weapons) right? A standard ADS would usually set you back about 400-450k ISK, which is roughly two games worth of payout for a single ship. Too expensive? Yeah, definitely; too effective? Not really; it very much depends on what opposition (ie, AV presence) there is and how good the pilot is. Many times have I seen the '40-0' argument raised and to which I will always respond with my 37-1 STD CalSent which costs a fraction of your standard ADS hull alone (13k is 1/24.7th of the Charlie ADS hull cost.) So really, you are talking out of your second mouth here: ADSs in Charlie were the single most expensive single entities on the field.
Soraya Xel wrote:ISK cost isn't a good balancing method. (It's actually a really bad one.) And ADSes got an incredibly high ISK efficiency rating anyhow. They were too cheap for their durability.
And from personal experience, my swarm fit was close to 300k. And I would often lose three to six of them trying (and failing) to kill a single ADS.
And yet it remains a balancing point because that's what CCP have determined: so whether it's a good method or not, it is a method that is part of this game.
If your Swarm fit is close to 300k, you're using a PRO Logi with PRO equipment: which is entirely unnecessary to attack vehicles as a primary AV suit. The Commando (especially the MinCom) is by far more suited of the Swarm role than any Logi suit. I'm not a PRO Swarmer, but I can threaten any vehicle with my L3 STD MinCom suit with CBR7 any day of the week. That fit costs 22k.
Oh,and again, vehicle damage points...
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
813
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas, ADSes weren't dying enough in general. ADSes were too cheap. I think nerfing them and making them cheaper was better than raising the price.
You must be joking!? Price was too cheap?!
I agree that a nerf was required but Delta is way too far. AB cool down? Fair enough, it means that engagements are more spread out, which means ADSs have a lot less time in the thick of it, reducing their impact, totally legit and I'm even warming up to the current numbers (even though I think they're still a little too long.) Swarm speed/acceleration? Again, fine, they're missiles and should be damn fast: only issue is the tracking radius nerf is utterly irrelevant. ROF nerf? Again, not unreasonable, but has hammered the Incubus into the ground like an RDV and the Python is barely passable and only capable of engaging infantry who don't fight back - ROF nerfing is fine, but what such an enormous nerf has done is trivialise the actual ability of an ADS to do anything meaningful.
AB cool down could do with being a little faster, though not by much.
Swarm speed is fine, tracking radius needs to be less still, because it is not achieving the intended goal (making it possible to outmanoeuvre them.)
ROF nerf needs to be lessened or replaced to produce a newely define role for the ADS.
Soraya Xel wrote:Balance between classes isn't made on anecdotal evidence. Everyone has pulled off a crazy 40/0 match once in something. (42/0 in a sniper was my personal best, during the heydey of Chromosome snipers being the best thing ever (and horribly overpowered).) The balance between classes is wrong when the average of a class, across every player who plays it, is incredibly high. The ADS was very simply the superior class in the game. To everything. The numbers are not public, but they exist, and they're conclusive.
Yes, I'm sure everyone has pulled off crazy K/DRs in random fittings; why does this mean that the odd crazy ADS K/DR is suddenly the end of the world? My personal best is somewhere around 25-0/1 and I know I have rarely seen any enemy pilots going like that when I'm against them (though that's probably because I pulled out my Rail Incubus and shot them down/hounded them) - so, Mr Numbers: how commonly did an ADS get a ridiculous K/DR? How many times was that pilot part of a small subset that consistently outperformed newer pilots? Also, how many unique characters fly an ADS routinely?
If numbers are so important to the balance of things, maybe it's time to actually share them?
Edit:
There is an expression used about explaining things: show, don't tell. Show us how OP ADSs are, don't tell us. From our POV we are being chased off by invisible assailants and escaping by the skin of our teeth: yet you constantly paint us as some monsters who will utterly dominate everything under the sun just by farting in the general direction of bad guys.
Show us the evidence. Don't tell us about it and expect us to swallow it.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
813
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :)
As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted 
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
814
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.
Well, to be fair I wasn't necessarily meaning cough up the numbers now or else more that the numbers should be shown in the nebulous near future.
As far as averages are concerned, what correlation is there between those high K/DRs and pilots who have been around since the dark ages of 400m swarms?
Soraya Xel wrote:But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.
Indeed, and I appreciate that fact. Which is why so many pilots have been giving first impressions and why I have stated what I believe should be looked at next for ADS balance.
Soraya Xel wrote:Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.
Agreed, I know I had my fair share of running scared silly against L5 Incubi when I was just skilling up, but that does not warrant nerf batting into nonexistence. And I'm not advocating SP = better...but SP does equal better. Does a PRO Commando not have a significant DPS advantage over a L1 Commando? Does an L5 AmScout not have an enormous EWar advantage over an L5 Amarr Light Frame?
Skills are part and parcel of DUST: the racial ADS skills are 100% equivalent to Dropsuit Command skills. If anything, the ADS tree needs a restructuring because of the differences between the NDSs and the ADSs. Really, the NDSs need their own tree similar to the ADS tree with a focus on different skills, like how Logistics and Assault have similar suits but radically different bonuses and slots.
The ROF bonus was not, in and of itself, OP: no more so than any +2% damage per level bonus is. In fact, ROF is less OP than straight damage due to reloading and clip size keeping applied DPS in relative check. Was the bonus too high? Yeah, I can agree to that. Is the bonus too low now? Yes quite flatly, yes and more to point is worse for the Incubus than the Python due to the ROF nerf double whammy.
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
815
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Posted - 2014.09.24 23:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP.
Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed.
I'd like to reiterate my question about the correlation between certain pilots and the high KDRs.
Please never use that word again with regard to development/balancing.
*shudder*
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
819
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Posted - 2014.09.25 00:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Soon and Soon(TM) are actually two different words.
Too close for comfort... 
Edit:
Might I often some synonyms for use instead?
Quickly, rapidly, shortly or promptly would all be good without conjuring images of never-to-exist-in-DUST PVE, Amarr/Minmatar vehicles...or the whole list of broken promises and lying Devs... :(
Alt of Halla Murr.
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