You are still massively overstating our effectiveness.

I understand that the ADS pilots think differently. I literally do not believe ADS pilots have experienced a balanced gameplay, because vehicles have always been some level of overpowered. The fact that ADSes have been borderline indestructible has to end. Because it's unfair to everyone else.

Let me put it this way, if the ADS had not been nerfed, the price would've had to go up. A lot. Their effectiveness was incredible for the price they were paying.

ISK cost isn't a good balancing method. (It's actually a really bad one.) And ADSes got an incredibly high ISK efficiency rating anyhow. They were too cheap for their durability.

And from personal experience, my swarm fit was close to 300k. And I would often lose three to six of them trying (and failing) to kill a single ADS.

I could ask for a very biased opinion.

Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP.

I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots.

What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. ADS IS UNPROFITABLE IN ITS "OP" FORM SO YOU ARE GOING TO NERF IT BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS PAYOUT THAN U ALREADY GET FROM YOUR EASILY PROFITABLE ROLE.

What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. ADS IS UNPROFITABLE IN ITS "OP" FORM SO YOU ARE GOING TO NERF IT BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS PAYOUT THAN U ALREADY GET FROM YOUR EASILY PROFITABLE ROLE.

What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches.

I just hope we hear from CCP soonGǪ

I would love CCP Rattati to post those numbers.

Yh but as I said I'm not in it for the points. I love flying. If rattati gave my a free python (with a bit higher maneuverability and speed) and a gun that shot nice coloured baloons at people I would be happy. I'm in it because I love flying, and I'm not going to give in because someone wants to play cod

Oh and your "numbers" are massively flawed. You know why in average ADS dont die so often like 3-4 times per match? Cause once a pilot gets shot down by a forgegunner/redline rail tank he wont call in a 2nd dropship cause that would mean risking another 500k ISK. Which would have ment that he put around 1 million ISK onto the table while the proto forger maybe risked like 150k ISK. Now take your numbers and put them where the sun doesnt shine.

You are one of the only 12 people in the community rattati believes exist so ask him to post them (remember ship losses per match, not deaths)

Oh and your "numbers" are massively flawed. You know why in average ADS dont die so often like 3-4 times per match? Cause once a pilot gets shot down by a forgegunner/redline rail tank he wont call in a 2nd dropship cause that would mean risking another 500k ISK. Which would have ment that he put around 1 million ISK onto the table while the proto forger maybe risked like 150k ISK. Now take your numbers and put them where the sun doesnt shine.

If you aren't big on the gun that kills people, you could try a standard dropship. They just got buffed.

Kallas, ADSes weren't dying enough in general. ADSes were too cheap. I think nerfing them and making them cheaper was better than raising the price.

Balance between classes isn't made on anecdotal evidence. Everyone has pulled off a crazy 40/0 match once in something. (42/0 in a sniper was my personal best, during the heydey of Chromosome snipers being the best thing ever (and horribly overpowered).) The balance between classes is wrong when the average of a class, across every player who plays it, is incredibly high. The ADS was very simply the superior class in the game. To everything. The numbers are not public, but they exist, and they're conclusive.

You must be joking!? Price was too cheap?!

I agree that a nerf was required but Delta is way too far. AB cool down? Fair enough, it means that engagements are more spread out, which means ADSs have a lot less time in the thick of it, reducing their impact, totally legit and I'm even warming up to the current numbers (even though I think they're still a little too long.) Swarm speed/acceleration? Again, fine, they're missiles and should be damn fast: only issue is the tracking radius nerf is utterly irrelevant. ROF nerf? Again, not unreasonable, but has hammered the Incubus into the ground like an RDV and the Python is barely passable and only capable of engaging infantry who don't fight back - ROF nerfing is fine, but what such an enormous nerf has done is trivialise the actual ability of an ADS to do anything meaningful.

AB cool down could do with being a little faster, though not by much.
Swarm speed is fine, tracking radius needs to be less still, because it is not achieving the intended goal (making it possible to outmanoeuvre them.)
ROF nerf needs to be lessened or replaced to produce a newely define role for the ADS.



Yes, I'm sure everyone has pulled off crazy K/DRs in random fittings; why does this mean that the odd crazy ADS K/DR is suddenly the end of the world? My personal best is somewhere around 25-0/1 and I know I have rarely seen any enemy pilots going like that when I'm against them (though that's probably because I pulled out my Rail Incubus and shot them down/hounded them) - so, Mr Numbers: how commonly did an ADS get a ridiculous K/DR? How many times was that pilot part of a small subset that consistently outperformed newer pilots? Also, how many unique characters fly an ADS routinely?

If numbers are so important to the balance of things, maybe it's time to actually share them?

Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :)

As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted

As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted

Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.

But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.

Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.

I'm actually trolling through like both the GD and F&ID boards, while also writing lengthy wordy posts. I actually should leave and drive home, so there might be a big gap where I'm silent soon.

Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.

But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.

Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.

Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them.

But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay.

Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong.

Also any particular reason why you can't share those numbers?

Also quick random thought relating to skills being "too strong". Why the did the already op remote explosive get made so the skill increased its damage AND the number carried when previously they all had the same damage. The skill for re now gives over 40% more damage for proto and 50% more deployable at once

Because I can't share anything CCP hasn't already said. I can say the ADS was really OP because CCP Rattati said the ADS was really OP. He did not post the statistics of ADS performance during Charlie, so neither can I. I can also throw in my own personal opinion and anecdotal experience. But I cannot share things CCP has shared with us that isn't public. Even when I think those things should be public. All I can do is beg and plead CCP to make them public.

I don't know how you personally feel about most of CCP Rattati's work, but I think it's been incredibly good, personally. He's a numbers guy. Everything he does is, at some point, based on the numbers. Even when we have to figure out how to explain why the numbers are how they are. ADSes were OP. People will not win arguments claiming they were not. Even many die hard ADS pilots now admit they were OP.

People are definitely questioning if the nerf was too far. I can't tell you, because I don't know. I don't yet have the personal experience or the numbers on Delta. But if it went too far, the numbers will show it, and then it will be tweaked again. Balance is a continual process. And the amount and content of feedback here will determine how much attention is paid to those things (for instance, I'm sure everyone will look VERY hard at Delta numbers for the ADS, given the amount of complaints).

Personally I haven't paid a lot of attention to the RE lately, so I do not know. I will try to remember to look at that, and see if I think it is dumb or not.