DUST Search - Hot Fix Delta and Assault Dropships

CELESTA AUNGM wrote:

Hello, Gabriella!
I can't contribute much to the ADS point of view reagarding the Swarm Missile gunfight, because I'm either DS transporter or DS door-gunner. When your standard DS gets the visual cue (or the hit) from the swarmer, it's a very different set of mechanics to gunslinging it out with the opponent.

In the DS driver's mindset, I immediately want to hold still and continue to be a target, to get the Swarm Launcher to expose himself long enough for my gunner to AIM-DOWN-ZOOM-SIGHTS and engage him. I KNOW my gunner can zoom and get a better render of the Launcher than I can get as the driver.

In the door turret-gunner's mindset, I can see that Launcher light up before all the missiles even leave his shoulder, and I PRAY my driver holds still and doesn't notice we're about to be hit by an initail swarm (yeah, it sounds callous to my driver), because I see a clean chance to zoom-aim and put a turret round right in the Launcher's mouth before he even lives to see his first volley harmlessly strike our Transport DS.

But an ADS doesn't have that (I'd say "FAIR") counter advantage against the Swarm Launcher.

Even if a DS driver can't "see" the opponent, her gunner has a crack at Zoom-locking on him with a turret as dangerously as he's Zoom-locking us, and the driver doesn't have to be so neck-crampingly positioned over the opponent for her gunner to defeat the Swarm Launcher.
...The ADS has no zoom, or early-visual, or latitude of firing-position, ... arguably NO FIGHTING advantage at all. Only a fleeing advantage, and a dev bias that's hell bent on MAKING you flee.

These are variables that I expect make the RoF turret reduction a LOT easier for DS driver/gunner crews to live with than for ADS operators. The mechanics of how the DS or ADS "defends itself and fights back" is almost too different for them to be working with the same spec gun. (...too different to be carrying the same spec gun...MAYBE, that's the key to a solution).

Those same variables are nearly impossible to argue to a Swarm Launcher carrier---he's got a totally different vision (literally)--he can't possibly agree that having "more rounds per second to make up for how hard it is to lock on him" is FAIR counterbalance for his "3 consecutive bullseyes on us"---and unfortunately the DS has now become the Moby **** that the obsessed Swarm carrier MUST BE ALLOWED TO KILL, OR ELSE THIS GAME IS BROKEN AND THE SWARM-PLAYER IS GOING TO KICK HIS PET DOG IN THE BELLY if CCP doesn't let him swarm-kill Celesta instead of just swarm-chasing her away.

And I don't think these variables will carry any weight with CCP, because in a face-off with AV or other vehicles, they want your ADS to have to flee more than it has been doing in the past. The more aggressive a vehicle is able to be in a confrontation, the more CCP's "balance" solution is to make that vehicle have to flee sooner, and stay around less. I don't agree with that at all for an EVE game, but To CCP, you may be legitimately considered "more balanced" now. Straight


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Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 151	Posted - 2014.09.24 18:42:00 - [1] - Quote Before I put my thoughts on this, I want to start and say that I would like to hear from the rest of the dropship community on these things and if CCP can look at these issues. The assault dropship isn't in a balanced position at the moment with A/V and vehicles, by these factors: Swarm Speed, and Swarm turning is removing dropships from play too easy. The swarm speed I don't really have an issue with but its turning radius is an issue. Evasive flying isn't helping a great deal. The issue is the turning for the swarms need somewhere around 5 - 10% more increase. 10-¦ - 90-¦ angle positions in relation to swarm missiles are not really allowing dropships to out maneuver them. Thus far my interaction with swarms calls for me running much more away from the battle rather than being a part of the battle. Small Missile Turrets New Rate of Fire significantly hinders Python ADS Ability. With the now rate of fire, it is extremely difficult to engage swarm users, HAV's, and Heavies. Swarm launcher users currently can keep dropships running because the Python's rate of fire is it's only edge to do any type of meaningful strafe run. The current time it takes to aim at a target and deliver one missile + account for air speed + angle makes using the now small missile turrets extremely difficult to fight back. Another problem is small missile turrets previous speed allowed them to fight HAV's but currently AV has a far better chance at engaging them. The slower rate of fire is allowing HAV's that are hurt or pursued by dropships to heal back up with not much worry. When engaging Commandos and Heavies dropships are having far too much of a time to aim at them and fight back. The time required for the dropship to remain still, it's already large size, and inability to tell who is AV and who is not, is all working in A/V favor. I don't think the changes rendered dropships useless but the changes in their current state have made dropships under performing ground vehicles and infantry. I will post another focusing on small blasters, small rails and the incubus soon. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 151	Posted - 2014.09.24 19:51:00 - [2] - Quote Before I put my thoughts on this, I want to start and say that I would like to hear from the rest of the dropship community on these things and if CCP can look at these issues. The assault dropship isn't in a balanced position at the moment with A/V and vehicles, by these factors: Small Rail Turrets Rate of Fire is much more decent but its damage output is useless when engaging vehicles. With the previous rate of fire it made Dropships have a better chance of fighting back at HAV's, but put them in a horrible place in relation to the python and any other dropship that could fly. The rate of fire and amount of damage per shot with small rail turrets needs close attention. I would prefer and most pilots would also agree that we could see the rate of fire go down even a bit more if it can make up for it in damage. Currently as it stands small rail turrets make little difference when engaging HAV's, Installation Turrets, and LAV's from the skies. Incubus fittings are now suffering much more to AV than the Python variant. We may see more Incubus users changing over to the already popular double double repairs incubus and more to equipping armor plates. Though the damage output on armor by A/V seems still too steep. Small Blaster Turrets, feel a bit better than previous, but the splash damage could use a better increase if they will ever be used. As a front mounted gun on a Incubus or Python it is useless in attacking infantry. Something that could make them useful is increasing their spread a bit more to where the blast radius will always effect the center dot is. This could make it usable at better distances and not hovering at 5 meters in front of the target. I don't think the changes rendered dropships useless but the changes in their current state have made dropships under performing ground vehicles and infantry. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 152	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:30:00 - [3] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: Swarm Speed, and Swarm turning is removing dropships from play too easy. The swarm speed I don't really have an issue with but its turning radius is an issue. Evasive flying isn't helping a great deal. The issue is the turning for the swarms need somewhere around 5 - 10% more increase. 10-¦ - 90-¦ angle positions in relation to swarm missiles are not really allowing dropships to out maneuver them. Thus far my interaction with swarms calls for me running much more away from the battle rather than being a part of the battle. Link This was called by the community before the release. I hope we see some kind of soon adjustments before Tank spam, and A/V spam comes back into the game, full throttle. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 153	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:45:00 - [4] - Quote Evan Gotabor wrote: If the Python is not in a good position, the incubus is worst. With less firerate, your smallrail overheat (level 5) with only 4 or 5 shots. The rail is simply useless. I will post a video soon that will show the before/after. For the moment, I'm returning from where I started : incubus and missile launcher. Without dogfight, the ADS is not as appealing Yes when it comes to air vs ground the Incubus is having some hard times, that was why I posted all the issues on both. My rail RoF isn't bad but it isn't doing enough damage. Please post your videos as soon as you can, and lets hope we can get more pilots here for feedback. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 153	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:56:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships? It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta. I die quite a bit actually. But what are you going at is indifferent because the flux of feedback will over shadow most of what you maybe thinking is fine. My responses are far from bias. I have an Assault player, a logi, a scout and the hat goes deeper. I strongly suggest you looking from this aside from your own perspective. I am not sure if you mean this sarcastic or asking in sincerity. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 154	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:15:00 - [6] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: I die quite a bit actually. But what are you going at is indifferent because the flux of feedback will over shadow most of what you maybe thinking is fine. My responses are far from bias. I have an Assault player, a logi, a scout and the hat goes deeper. I strongly suggest you looking from this aside from your own perspective. I am not sure if you mean this sarcastic or asking in sincerity. Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option. See what you are failing to understand is pilots don't even think like that. Anyone who gets good at dropships has burned through isk and has a very bad KDR. Pilots don't care about KDR nor do they care about loosing their ships, they want to contribute to the fight. When they are flying there is a bunch of things from experience they have learned to be mindful of, that detours from the general infantry shoot, jump and hide behind cover. Most of what has been said in this thread hasn't been negative but constructive feedback. I think the dropship community agrees that they are indifferent about the after burner, but we are not ok with swarms having the speed they have while still having excellent turning. That isn't balanced when dropship pilots have to adhere by a double standard. That's just not fun at allGÇª *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 155	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:31:00 - [7] - Quote CELESTA AUNGM wrote: Hello, Gabriella! I can't contribute much to the ADS point of view reagarding the Swarm Missile gunfight, because I'm either DS transporter or DS door-gunner. When your standard DS gets the visual cue (or the hit) from the swarmer, it's a very different set of mechanics to gunslinging it out with the opponent. In the DS driver's mindset, I immediately want to hold still and continue to be a target, to get the Swarm Launcher to expose himself long enough for my gunner to AIM-DOWN-ZOOM-SIGHTS and engage him. I KNOW my gunner can zoom and get a better render of the Launcher than I can get as the driver. In the door turret-gunner's mindset, I can see that Launcher light up before all the missiles even leave his shoulder, and I PRAY my driver holds still and doesn't notice we're about to be hit by an initail swarm (yeah, it sounds callous to my driver), because I see a clean chance to zoom-aim and put a turret round right in the Launcher's mouth before he even lives to see his first volley harmlessly strike our Transport DS. But an ADS doesn't have that (I'd say "FAIR") counter advantage against the Swarm Launcher. Even if a DS driver can't "see" the opponent, her gunner has a crack at Zoom-locking on him with a turret as dangerously as he's Zoom-locking us, and the driver doesn't have to be so neck-crampingly positioned over the opponent for her gunner to defeat the Swarm Launcher. ...The ADS has no zoom, or early-visual, or latitude of firing-position, ... arguably NO FIGHTING advantage at all. Only a fleeing advantage, and a dev bias that's hell bent on MAKING you flee. These are variables that I expect make the RoF turret reduction a LOT easier for DS driver/gunner crews to live with than for ADS operators. The mechanics of how the DS or ADS "defends itself and fights back" is almost too different for them to be working with the same spec gun. (...too different to be carrying the same spec gun...MAYBE, that's the key to a solution). Those same variables are nearly impossible to argue to a Swarm Launcher carrier---he's got a totally different vision (literally)--he can't possibly agree that having "more rounds per second to make up for how hard it is to lock on him" is FAIR counterbalance for his "3 consecutive bullseyes on us"---and unfortunately the DS has now become the Moby ** that the obsessed Swarm carrier MUST BE ALLOWED TO KILL, OR ELSE THIS GAME IS BROKEN AND THE SWARM-PLAYER IS GOING TO KICK HIS PET DOG IN THE BELLY if CCP doesn't let him swarm-kill Celesta instead of just swarm-chasing her away. And I don't think these variables will carry any weight with CCP, because in a face-off with AV or other vehicles, they want your ADS to have to flee more than it has been doing in the past. The more aggressive a vehicle is able to be in a confrontation, the more CCP's "balance" solution is to make that vehicle have to flee sooner, and stay around less. I don't agree with that at all for an EVE game, but To CCP, you may be legitimately considered "more balanced" now. Well said Celesta! I think you might be right about all of this. CCP's numbers were a great effort in balancing what they thought was what they thought was wrong but dropships just have so many variables mainly because they work on a wider space of variables. CCP has calculated the range Swarm users need but they constantly forget that speed, angle, and angle can instantly change their variables on what they think is the issue with dropships. I always hoped for my pilot suit, and fighter jet, but I thought they will make it ever into Dust or Legion for that matter. We are still missing other variants of vehicles, and turrets, yet if jets were to be introduced as to the infantries thoughts we will not see dropships in any desirable place. This frustrates me a lot because our dropship community have been on about different modules and turrets for vehicles that fly for the longest. It is a tall order but it should have been one done at the very beginning when they decided to put them into the game. I haven't flown any of my standard dropship fittings yet since the update, mainly because 2 of my gunners ran over to Destiny, and the other is doing life stuff! But please continue posting your thoughts and lets bring more dropship pilots here. Who knows perhaps we can create a petition for changes we seriously need! Always Grey Skies** Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 157	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:45:00 - [8] - Quote a brackers wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: a brackers wrote: Please go into 1st airborne chat and ask any pilot in there if they have ever fine isk positive from an extended period of time flying I could ask for a very biased opinion. Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP. I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots. What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. ADS IS UNPROFITABLE IN ITS "OP" FORM SO YOU ARE GOING TO NERF IT BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS PAYOUT THAN U ALREADY GET FROM YOUR EASILY PROFITABLE ROLE. And you forgot the amount of times it takes to do matches to replace that dropship along with the dropsuit you are wearing. Statistically 9/10 most dropship pilots die during the crash, either by the dropship, infantry or another vehicle. We should really stop this with Soraya. This isn't helping us in a bit, and I am worried CCP will not take us serious to our concerns. Soraya does not with to understand this from another point of view. The formula used by CCP is not error free, despite the statistics, there is still human error. I just hope we hear from CCP soonGÇª *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 157	Posted - 2014.09.25 00:35:00 - [9] - Quote Link To Other Discussion Please Dropship pilots bring your attention to this forum thread and post your feedback. I don't think this one is ever going to be seen by CCP Also best to post on the other Forums that you find about dropships as well. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos