DUST Search - Hot Fix Delta and Assault Dropships

Soraya Xel wrote:

Minor Treat wrote:

They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different...

This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_-

Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have.

- You have significantly more health in both shields and armor.
- Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry.
- Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle.
- You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die.
- You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free.
- You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important.

But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was.

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Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3632	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:35:00 - [61] - Quote Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage. For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO. To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP. Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 815	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:44:00 - [62] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP. Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. I'd like to reiterate my question about the correlation between certain pilots and the high KDRs. Soraya Xel wrote: Soon. Please never use that word again with regard to development/balancing. shudder Alt of Halla Murr.
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 68	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:52:00 - [63] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage. For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO. To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP. Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon. I'm basing my op ness off the ofher fits I run: Assault forge (op - I can kill most tanks and nearly all dropships which arent smart enough to run without dying) gal sentinel g1 (seems reasonable. Not too op. Good point defence but balanced cus rubbish at range) Mlt medic suit (I get most kills per match and highest kdr in this as I can run in with no worry of losing it. ) charlie python (worked well against a bad tank. Both survived against a good tank. Died to rail snipe tanks or rail instilarions I once went within 75m of- damn those things need to forget once in out of 75m and never shot at it. Against normal infantry I'm op, although they quickly swap to any form of av and have a 70 % chance of driving me off, overall 50% chance I kill the single guy, 40% he kills me. 10% we then avoid each other. More then 1 av and I'm almost granted to lose the ship. Ramming ds about 40 60 in favor of him hitting me and both of us dying) Delta pytgon (almost all tanks survive. They now have no fear of me at all as their shields recharge faster than I'm hitting. I can no longer strafe as I don't have the rof to kill anyone. Therefore I'm stationary when the swarms hit -which I couldn't see coming- I have about a 10 % chance of killing swarmer while running away, 80% chance of him killing me and 10% I escape and recall. One swarmer shouldn't do that. Also im getting about a fifth the kills as there is enough cover almost all infantry can get safe before I kill them Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3632	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:53:00 - [64] - Quote Soon and Soon(TM) are actually two different words. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 819	Posted - 2014.09.25 00:04:00 - [65] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Soon and Soon(TM) are actually two different words. Too close for comfort... Edit: Might I often some synonyms for use instead? Quickly, rapidly, shortly or promptly would all be good without conjuring images of never-to-exist-in-DUST PVE, Amarr/Minmatar vehicles...or the whole list of broken promises and lying Devs... :( Alt of Halla Murr.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3638	Posted - 2014.09.25 00:25:00 - [66] - Quote Shortly would've been better. Thought about it on the drive home. I actually really really wish Judge Rhadamanthus was up to his usual things right now. I'm sure we'd disagree (we usually do), but since he has the same data I do, and he's really really good at numbers, I think it would be really valuable. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 157	Posted - 2014.09.25 00:35:00 - [67] - Quote Link To Other Discussion Please Dropship pilots bring your attention to this forum thread and post your feedback. I don't think this one is ever going to be seen by CCP Also best to post on the other Forums that you find about dropships as well. *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 305	Posted - 2014.09.26 03:43:00 - [68] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage. For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO. To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP. Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon. I took the time to read the last four pages of posts on this discussion, and to be honest Soraya Xel I disagree with most of your statements. Here is my background in Dust. 35million Lifetime skills points focused in on ADS (Python) maxed out, Proto Anti-Vehicle fits (Swarms, Proxy, Forges), Proto Assault (caldari and rail rifles), Proto Commando (gallente with AR and PLC), and ADV Scout (caldari). Also I have a lot of experiance with milita vehicles with plenty of kills with my 20G Railgun and Sica Blaster tanks. overall I feel I am pretty diverse in dust and have been playing for quite some time. My opinion: I feel that ADS is not "useless" but its in my experiance after losing tons of ADS in a few days, I feel that ADS is too weak for the current changes in Delta Patch. Here is my reasoning. 1) PRE-DELTA Anti-Vehicle Advantages that need to taken into account. AV players have several advantages that ADS pilots do not have such as the First movers advantage. We have all see plenty of evidence of rendering issues between infantry and airborne combat, which gives the AV an immediate advantage over the ADS. The AV player will always be able to fire of 1 volley and start his/her 2nd volley before the ADS pilot has identified his position due to rendering. They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different... AV gets War Points based on Assists (50 WP), destruction, (150 WP), kills (per 50 WP), Damages scale (75 WP) and Intel (15 WP). While ADS only gets Assists (25 WP), Kills (per 50 WP), Vehicle Kill Assist (35 WP) and Intel (15 WP) Note: This is a scenario revolving around AV vs ADS (The AV player is not involved within Vehicles as he cannot use his AV equipment until he leaves his vehicle so Vehicle damage or destruction does not play into account in these numbers. AV players also have advantages of AI Installation support, its may seem silly but I have witness plenty of turning tides where an AI installation gets a few shots or damages a ADS a few times allowing the destruction of that vehicle. AV players also have advantages in the terrain, where players can use peek a boo tactics within buildings or bridges to hurt ADS players (again rendering and War points play additional advantages). ADS pilots cannot hide withing compounds as the walls do massive amounts of damage if they are so much as tap them, Though the ADS can gain altitude or retreat to red line the ADS has to deal with first movers advantage again to re-engage target he/she was firing at previously. Granted ADS can Lock down a Compound once within fire support range which enemies are rending and is in superior fire position but Tanks and even a well place Turret mounted LAV can do the exact same thing, so how can these vehicles used in tactical situations not be held equally accountable as the ADS? Finally AV players have a much larger target to fire upon that ADS pilots have, and this is because of how the ADS functions. A Single Infantry Unit is 1/9th the size of a Dropship, which with higher altitude (assume that player has rendering in) is even smaller from the ADS point of view. The AV's see a much larger target to spot plus the first movers advantage that AV players have over ADS pilot. 2) POST DELTA Anti-Vehicle Advantages - Note: all advantages Pre-Delta are still present Swarm buffs have allowed a stronger destructive game against ADS with increase Speed, acceleration and with the additions to nerfing the After Burner ( I think is a smart move given Swarms always were effective at nullifying and area denying ADS but not destroying, I always felt that Forge Guns and Railguns did very effective jobs destroying an ADS but swarms needed abit of buffing) The Lower ROF for Turrets (Missle's and Railgun's) for on Racial ADS have left drive by shooting to be substantially less effective than PRE-DELTA. So hit and run tactics for ADS is not an options as rendering prevents ADS pilots from see what needs to be shot leaving them to shoot blindly with a low ROF as they cannot splash damage a wide area to combat the first movers advantage. So essentially ADS cannot do Hit and Run tactics, nor can they stay stationary to allow rendering to rend in the AV players as they will lose to first movers advantage, Swarms buffs, and After Burner nerfing. (I completely disagree with ROF nerfing as I felt that it was not the true problem to ADS being so powerful PRE-DELTA. I felt that ADS was too powerful due to the bug which allow bonus python skills to stack. For me, Denying or Destroying Solo ADS pilots PRE-Delta was not a huge problem, but the additional side gunner getting the bonus for each pilots skill in the ADS allow for a devastating vehicle that was needing to be addressed. This was the wrong way to fix that issue.)
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 305	Posted - 2014.09.26 03:51:00 - [69] - Quote additionally I wanted to include that Data and Numbers are a great source of information and even a better tool for predicting future outcomes. Unfortunately, Data is not a perfect tool to predict future outcomes as it is based on real world events which have multiple variables but only give us the information to predict a perfect world outcome. For example I suspect Data collect around ADS pilots are slightly inaccurate due to the side gunners getting additional bonus for multiple pilots within a single drop ship. That the True Data revolving around a single pilot within a ADS is slightly above balance which would have been more deserving of a lighter touch on the ROF nerfing.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3732	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:33:00 - [70] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different... This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_- Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have. - You have significantly more health in both shields and armor. - Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry. - Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle. - You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die. - You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free. - You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important. But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 77	Posted - 2014.09.27 19:47:00 - [71] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Minor Treat wrote: They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different... This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_- Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have. - You have significantly more health in both shields and armor. - Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry. - Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle. - You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die. - You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free. - You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important. But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was. Omfg. Ads is in no way even slightly profitable, neither has it ever been. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1820	Posted - 2014.09.28 01:37:00 - [72] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: a brackers wrote: You are still massively overstating our effectiveness. Nope. The numbers don't lie. CCP has statistics on this crud. Nor do the numbers tell the entire story. An example: the longbow is a superior weapon in every way to the musket. It is more accurate, can shoot faster, requires less maintenance, can be made my a single person, and works in foul weather. Why then did the Patriots in the Revolutionary War use muskets instead of longbows? The numbers show us that the bow is superior to the musket, but the numbers are leaving out some crucial parts. First, it takes far more training time to be proficient with a bow than with a musket. You must begin practicing with a bow at a young age (most tribes began bow training at 7 years of age) while muskets take about a week to learn proficiently. Next, muskets make a tremendously loud noise, and this provides a psychological advantage to war. Loud noises are scary. That's the point of the war cry; making noise to scare your opponent. So the musket going BLAM BLAM BLAM versus the bow going twoink twoink twoink means the musket user can scare the bow user off, even though the bow user has the advantage of range, accuracy, and fire rate. In this way, the numbers (which by the way, none of the community has seen) may show dropships as being OP, but those spreadsheets aren't showing you the whole story. They don't show how I use my blaster tanks to run interference for my friends Dergle and Boss SobanRe, drawing AV fire for them so they can swoop in and annihilate the swarm nest. They don't show how my faction warfare friends use dropships to get people to spawn in AV fits so that our infantry players can push the point while facing mainly a bunch of sidearms to our rifles. They don't show how I used my Python to fling two HMG users on top of a water tower where a nest of forges was dug in, forges that had shot me down twice before we got the idea to send in someone to deal with them. You can't base everything solely on the numbers. You must include how those numbers are being used before you can call something OP or not. This is why the ADS community has been offering to provide ADS to Rattati to show him what it's like from the cockpit of an ADS, an offer that I still regard as available to him should he want to fly with me. He seems to have numbers and his experiences on the ground, but he's missing a crucial part of the equation: any experience in the air. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 141	Posted - 2014.09.28 02:34:00 - [73] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships? It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta. Just because you are a horrible player that tends to "die every 90 seconds" gives you no reason to bash the ADS. Skill into it and actually use it before you criticize it. Pain is weakness leaving the body.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 312	Posted - 2014.09.28 17:04:00 - [74] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Minor Treat wrote: They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different... This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_- Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have. - You have significantly more health in both shields and armor. - Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry. - Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle. - You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die. - You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free. - You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important. But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was. Look if you won't listen to a member of the community of Dust 514 than I encourage you to listen to one of the CPM members instead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967QvZ5PPT4&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3829	Posted - 2014.09.29 14:38:00 - [75] - Quote Minor, as blunt as I was last week, I've gotten an incredible amount of support for it. There is a small community, that of ADS pilots, is upset about it. I feel my job is to represent the larger body of the community, which seems to be comfortable with the reality that the ADS was OP as heck. I am pretty sure Judge as I have quite differing opinions on the ADS. I am actually completely okay with that, as generally, it means we are each representing different voices in the community to CCP. I think that's a really good thing. My biggest issue right now, is that I wish Judge were around to ensure both sides were fairly represented. But unfortunately, he's had Internet access issues of late. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 312	Posted - 2014.09.29 15:07:00 - [76] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Minor, as blunt as I was last week, I've gotten an incredible amount of support for it. There is a small community, that of ADS pilots, is upset about it. I feel my job is to represent the larger body of the community, which seems to be comfortable with the reality that the ADS was OP as heck. I am pretty sure Judge as I have quite differing opinions on the ADS. I am actually completely okay with that, as generally, it means we are each representing different voices in the community to CCP. I think that's a really good thing. My biggest issue right now, is that I wish Judge were around to ensure both sides were fairly represented. But unfortunately, he's had Internet access issues of late. I can respect the support, my point of the matter is if your gonna disagree thats totally fine, if you think my arguments are flaw I am okay with that. But I don't appreciate saying that ADS being OP or not is not a discussion as it is, the point of a discussion is to bring your topic to the table, bring your evidence and supported reasons, and than conclude with your final thoughts. Without these discussion wither something is OP will become a one sided as not all voices will be heard, and everyone deserves to say their thoughts. That said, I do not disagree with you that the ADS was too strong pre-delta. The list I included was to point out situations unique to ADS pilots during the nerf, without including these issue's you threaten to not only nerf ADS too much but it will never see true AV balancing. I believe most of Delta AV buffs were a good idea, I like the buff to swarms and nerfing ADS afterburners, the only one I have a problem with is the rate of fire nerf. It was originally 10% now its only 3% (that is a 70% nerf), we have had this problem in the past before where certain weapons get Nerf so hard its nearly unusable and the community has spoken up about it saying little nerfs are more appropriate. 70% is not a little nerf. This situation is the equivalent to the Flaylock nerf back in 1.3 uprising. Its my believe that the ADS should be more deserving of nerfing between 30-50 percent nerfing on the ADS rate of fire. 70% is so overboard that it makes the python no longer a ADS options as the rate of fire nerf is so hard, the incubus in the only options for airborne uses. How is it fair to limit ADS pilots who use pythons to the incubus which has nearly the same rate of fire but with more survivalbility? Essentially there are two weapons in the sky, but now we can only use one as they are no real incentives to use the other one is the other is simply better in this current patch.


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