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Hot Fix Delta and Assault Dropships

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Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3614	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:50:00 - [1] - Quote I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships? It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3615	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:04:00 - [2] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: I die quite a bit actually. But what are you going at is indifferent because the flux of feedback will over shadow most of what you maybe thinking is fine. My responses are far from bias. I have an Assault player, a logi, a scout and the hat goes deeper. I strongly suggest you looking from this aside from your own perspective. I am not sure if you mean this sarcastic or asking in sincerity. Realistically, I don't have an opinion on Delta ADS yet. I know Charlie ADS was extremely OP. But I haven't been on to play yet, and CCP doesn't have statistics yet, so it's hard to say. But the big notion that drives me nuts is the expectation that an ADS can always run away from a battle. Because no infantry player (except maybe scouts when versus other infantry) has anything anywhere close to that option. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3615	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:07:00 - [3] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Quite simply, this is a question that should b answered by Rattati, perhaps you could pose it to him for me (if he doesn't respond here) - is one AV player supposed to destroy one vehicle player in a one-on-on situation in evenly matched circumstances? If yes: why is AV so handsomely rewarded (ie, WP rewards for soloing a vehicle are very high); if not, then should the balance point for AV/V not be more powerful AV and cheaper vehicles? The problem is, it shouldn't be "ADS finds one AV, that AV dies" nor "ADS finds one AV, and gets to run off to safety". There should be a fight there. One player should be able to actually have a chance of killing another player and vice versa. However, while an ADS has an above average chance of killing any single infantry they encounter, an ADS is only threatened by infantry if they carry a small subset of weapons, and then, only if there are multiple infantry carrying that small set of weapons, apparently. One player needs to be able to kill one player. If an AV and an ADS meet somewhere, they should each be capable of killing the other. And the AV should probably have a bit of an advantage, since their primary (or sole, in the case of swarms) role is to kill vehicles, whereas the ADS is much more versatile. And while the ADS has the chance to flee, the swarm launcher often does not. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3617	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:18:00 - [4] - Quote I understand that the ADS pilots think differently. I literally do not believe ADS pilots have experienced a balanced gameplay, because vehicles have always been some level of overpowered. The fact that ADSes have been borderline indestructible has to end. Because it's unfair to everyone else. Let me put it this way, if the ADS had not been nerfed, the price would've had to go up. A lot. Their effectiveness was incredible for the price they were paying. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3617	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:20:00 - [5] - Quote a brackers wrote: I don't quite get the bit where you think it should be easier for a 30k point and shoot weapon to kill a 430k (after delta) ads than it is the other way round. ISK cost isn't a good balancing method. (It's actually a really bad one.) And ADSes got an incredibly high ISK efficiency rating anyhow. They were too cheap for their durability. And from personal experience, my swarm fit was close to 300k. And I would often lose three to six of them trying (and failing) to kill a single ADS. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3617	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:26:00 - [6] - Quote a brackers wrote: Please go into 1st airborne chat and ask any pilot in there if they have ever fine isk positive from an extended period of time flying I could ask for a very biased opinion. Or I could go with the statistics CCP Rattati uses to balance things, which say that the ADS in Charlie was incredibly freaking OP. I go with the latter. You will not convince me to disregard numbers in favor of the opinion of ADS pilots. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3617	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:28:00 - [7] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I tend to die like every 90 seconds when I'm playing DUST. How often do you lose dropships? It's going to take a few days for CCP to get good metrics on the state of the ADS after Hotfix Delta. 10-14 deaths per match? Get good scrub. Even running STD gear I rarely hit that. I play a lot of spambush. Not 10-14 deaths per match there. I guess I die a little less often in Skirmish. Mostly because there's so much more running around. o_O CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3619	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:29:00 - [8] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: You are better off with a grimsness and a gunner then a ADS. Cause the grimsness can actually get some decent tank on without exploding instantly. Two players working together should be a more powerful combination than running solo. (See, for instance, a heavy with a logi backing him.) CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3619	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:34:00 - [9] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: You are better off with a grimsness and a gunner then a ADS. Cause the grimsness can actually get some decent tank on without exploding instantly. Two players working together should be a more powerful combination than running solo. (See, for instance, a heavy with a logi backing him.) Even running solo swarms are a huge threat to ADS. I honestly lost count of how many dropships i shot down today as a cal scout with proto swarms and tripple damage mods. When you're running solo, swarms SHOULD be a huge threat to you. Because they're entire job is to kill you. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3619	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:36:00 - [10] - Quote a brackers wrote: You are still massively overstating our effectiveness. Nope. The numbers don't lie. CCP has statistics on this crud. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3620	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:43:00 - [11] - Quote Kallas, ADSes weren't dying enough in general. ADSes were too cheap. I think nerfing them and making them cheaper was better than raising the price. Balance between classes isn't made on anecdotal evidence. Everyone has pulled off a crazy 40/0 match once in something. (42/0 in a sniper was my personal best, during the heydey of Chromosome snipers being the best thing ever (and horribly overpowered).) The balance between classes is wrong when the average of a class, across every player who plays it, is incredibly high. The ADS was very simply the superior class in the game. To everything. The numbers are not public, but they exist, and they're conclusive. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3620	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:46:00 - [12] - Quote a brackers wrote: What is it with numbers proving everything. You ask rattati what the average ship losses are per game where the pilot is actually flying (ship losses, not deaths) and the average payout for each of those matches. I would love CCP Rattati to post those numbers. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3620	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:47:00 - [13] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: I just hope we hear from CCP soonGÇª I would assume CCP will wait a few days to really respond to collect real data, rather than player tears. And then use that to analyze whether the changes in Delta were too much or not enough. Also, bugfixes. There's some bugs in Delta too it seems. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3621	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:50:00 - [14] - Quote a brackers wrote: Yh but as I said I'm not in it for the points. I love flying. If rattati gave my a free python (with a bit higher maneuverability and speed) and a gun that shot nice coloured baloons at people I would be happy. I'm in it because I love flying, and I'm not going to give in because someone wants to play cod If you aren't big on the gun that kills people, you could try a standard dropship. They just got buffed. Bright Cloud wrote: Oh and your "numbers" are massively flawed. You know why in average ADS dont die so often like 3-4 times per match? Cause once a pilot gets shot down by a forgegunner/redline rail tank he wont call in a 2nd dropship cause that would mean risking another 500k ISK. Which would have ment that he put around 1 million ISK onto the table while the proto forger maybe risked like 150k ISK. Now take your numbers and put them where the sun doesnt shine. Rattati is confident in his numbers. a brackers wrote: You are one of the only 12 people in the community rattati believes exist so ask him to post them (remember ship losses per match, not deaths) I asked. More than once. I definitely would like more numbers shared with the community. Rattati definitely would like to hear from more than 12 people in the community though. o_O It is possible he hears people but knows they're wrong. Rattati is like God. Sometimes God's greatest gift is unanswered prayers. There's a Garth Brooks song about it. I am hopeful in a few days once there's some good statistics on how Delta changes are performing, he will indicate if the metrics support your comments. If the metrics say Delta went too far, I'll be the first one to jump on the train to give ADSes a bit of a buff. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3621	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:59:00 - [15] - Quote I said a bit more above. Didn't realize I was posting in an edit of my post rather than making a new one. :/ And yes, a big part of that post is a troll. I do that sometimes. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3621	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:05:00 - [16] - Quote Kallas, the problem is, the "odd crazy ADS KDR" wasn't a thing. Balance is based on averages. The average of ADS performance being exceptional. I would like those numbers to be shared, but I cannot share them. But what I can say, is that the hotfixes are not a one-and-done thing. Hotfixes are continual revision based on new data. Which means that the performance of the ADS in Delta will be examined, and if the changes went too far, they can be changed again. In fact, CCP Rattati already posted he is willing to buff the ADS before the next hotfix if it's not performing okay. Also, the RoF skill bonus was stupidly bad. 10% per level means that there's a 40% difference between a new ADS pilot and a skilled ADS pilot, which is hard to balance. If the RoF nerf is too far, I think CCP would likely buff the RoF of the ADS for ALL pilots, not just the ones with skill level V. The skill was too strong. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3626	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:10:00 - [17] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: a brackers wrote: Ooh look. Hes gone quiet :) As much as my e-ego would love to have won an argument so compellingly that I stunned my compatriot into silence, it's only been 4/5 minutes since I posted I'm actually trolling through like both the GD and F&ID boards, while also writing lengthy wordy posts. I actually should leave and drive home, so there might be a big gap where I'm silent soon. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3629	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:20:00 - [18] - Quote a brackers wrote: Also any particular reason why you can't share those numbers? Because I can't share anything CCP hasn't already said. I can say the ADS was really OP because CCP Rattati said the ADS was really OP. He did not post the statistics of ADS performance during Charlie, so neither can I. I can also throw in my own personal opinion and anecdotal experience. But I cannot share things CCP has shared with us that isn't public. Even when I think those things should be public. All I can do is beg and plead CCP to make them public. I don't know how you personally feel about most of CCP Rattati's work, but I think it's been incredibly good, personally. He's a numbers guy. Everything he does is, at some point, based on the numbers. Even when we have to figure out how to explain why the numbers are how they are. ADSes were OP. People will not win arguments claiming they were not. Even many die hard ADS pilots now admit they were OP. People are definitely questioning if the nerf was too far. I can't tell you, because I don't know. I don't yet have the personal experience or the numbers on Delta. But if it went too far, the numbers will show it, and then it will be tweaked again. Balance is a continual process. And the amount and content of feedback here will determine how much attention is paid to those things (for instance, I'm sure everyone will look VERY hard at Delta numbers for the ADS, given the amount of complaints). CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3629	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:22:00 - [19] - Quote a brackers wrote: Also quick random thought relating to skills being "too strong". Why the did the already op remote explosive get made so the skill increased its damage AND the number carried when previously they all had the same damage. The skill for re now gives over 40% more damage for proto and 50% more deployable at once Personally I haven't paid a lot of attention to the RE lately, so I do not know. I will try to remember to look at that, and see if I think it is dumb or not. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3632	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:35:00 - [20] - Quote Very few people can recognize they're OP. :) Because people tend to feel somewhat talented when they're doing well, and it feels good. And it's hard to admit you're really only doing well because you have an advantage. For instance, I am pretty bad. But standard forge guns are kinda OP. They're like one-hit kill sniper rifles that can also kill vehicles. At least with a mouse, which is incredibly precise. I think standard forge guns need a nerf. I will cry like a baby when that day comes, but that day is needed, IMHO. To be blunt, people claiming that ADSes were not OP will make zero traction. Because there is no way they were not OP. Rattati is a much faster mover than the old balancing passes of days yore. If Delta went too far, it will get fixed. Soon. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3632	Posted - 2014.09.24 23:53:00 - [21] - Quote Soon and Soon(TM) are actually two different words. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3638	Posted - 2014.09.25 00:25:00 - [22] - Quote Shortly would've been better. Thought about it on the drive home. I actually really really wish Judge Rhadamanthus was up to his usual things right now. I'm sure we'd disagree (we usually do), but since he has the same data I do, and he's really really good at numbers, I think it would be really valuable. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3732	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:33:00 - [23] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different... This one's hilarious enough I have to point it out. Vehicles are so OP, CCP had to offer up people WP just for damaging them to try to encourage people to even try to do AV. -_- Your list of "advantages" is flawed, because you won't recognize how many MORE advantages you have. - You have significantly more health in both shields and armor. - Three fourths of the weapons in the game cannot even damage you, much less kill you, AV is constantly being shot at by both vehicles and infantry. - Generally it takes a vehicle less shots to kill AV than it takes AV to kill a vehicle. - You can traverse the entire map in seconds, easily picking and choosing your engagements. Only in rare situations is there cover I can look to, and that cover won't really let me leave, just try not to die. - You can recall your equipment anywhere in the game, and have it returned to your inventory for free. - You don't die when your vehicle does, usually denying me a kill. (Another reason WP for damage is important. But realistically, here's what it comes down to: The statistics for the ADS's battlefield performance is mind-blowing. It was the hands-down most cost effective and most survivable playstyle on the battlefield by an order of magnitude. You can try to justify it however you want, but the fact that the ADS was incredibly OP was a fact, not a discussion. Even if there was some flaw with CCP Rattati's numbers, which you don't know and can't prove, it still would not explain the sheer ridiculousness of how overpowered the ADS was. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3829	Posted - 2014.09.29 14:38:00 - [24] - Quote Minor, as blunt as I was last week, I've gotten an incredible amount of support for it. There is a small community, that of ADS pilots, is upset about it. I feel my job is to represent the larger body of the community, which seems to be comfortable with the reality that the ADS was OP as heck. I am pretty sure Judge as I have quite differing opinions on the ADS. I am actually completely okay with that, as generally, it means we are each representing different voices in the community to CCP. I think that's a really good thing. My biggest issue right now, is that I wish Judge were around to ensure both sides were fairly represented. But unfortunately, he's had Internet access issues of late. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

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