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[Request] Swarm Launcher Damage Progression

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10530	Posted - 2014.07.16 02:30:00 - [1] - Quote The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
ladwar HEARTS OF PHOENIX 2010	Posted - 2014.07.16 02:35:00 - [2] - Quote /signed plus same sized missiles, same size launcher, so wtf is wrong with the basic and advanced missile launchers that prevents them from fire those missiles? really ccp. you mean to tell me they just don't launch out ever? Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth doing reviews in free time, want 1?
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1530	Posted - 2014.07.16 02:39:00 - [3] - Quote Agreed. The current progression makes the SL a prototypical noob trap. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 1046	Posted - 2014.07.16 02:41:00 - [4] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. The idea is interesting. This gives: 880, 1100 and 1320 currently. 1056, 1188 and 1320 with your proposed changes. I support these changes but I'd like to see the ranges of the swarm launchers increased slightly as well. Not per tier but overall. Munch Anyone who buys AUR now is a fool.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1403	Posted - 2014.07.16 03:36:00 - [5] - Quote Yet again Atiim, spot on! Have a like! (Or three) "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
taxi bastard jihad taxi co. 145	Posted - 2014.07.16 04:18:00 - [6] - Quote i agree that it would be a good move, but my biggest issue is swarm speed. even with max unlock time the speed of the dropships with afterburners means they can even miss the second volley simply by outrunning them.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 117	Posted - 2014.07.16 07:26:00 - [7] - Quote taxi bastard wrote: i agree that it would be a good move, but my biggest issue is swarm speed. even with max unlock time the speed of the dropships with afterburners means they can even miss the second volley simply by outrunning them. The problem is that dropships simply can't take damage, as they are terribly weak, and afterburners are the only viable way to avoid anything... without them, a pilot is guaranteeing themselves for creating a spectacle of a flaming ball of fire in the sky, and they're in the damn thing... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4115	Posted - 2014.07.16 10:21:00 - [8] - Quote My issue with having more missiles per launch is that missiles don't always hit their target. So even with proto you could still have the potential of dealing only standard damage. Standardizing the amount of missiles launched is a good idea. The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 678	Posted - 2014.07.16 10:49:00 - [9] - Quote I think I first supported this idea in spring 2013 or something. Still a valid and important suggestion, though. By the way, if we normalized all Swarm Launchers to 4 missiles per volley we'd save on performance. Less frame drops on impact for vehicle pilots is a good thing, if you ask me. Also we wouldn't be buffing knockback on dropships for STD and ADV variants.
Will Driver Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 145	Posted - 2014.07.16 18:10:00 - [10] - Quote +1 from me on proposed progression for SL. GÇ£Creativity is knowing how to hide your sourcesGÇ¥ GÇò Albert Einstein

KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1159	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:13:00 - [11] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I think I first supported this idea in spring 2013 or something. Still a valid and important suggestion, though. By the way, if we normalized all Swarm Launchers to 4 missiles per volley we'd save on performance. Less frame drops on impact for vehicle pilots is a good thing, if you ask me. Also we wouldn't be buffing knockback on dropships for STD and ADV variants. Hear hear, this is something to keep in mind. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1159	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:15:00 - [12] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D That would most likely be balanced by the amount of dps, which means both would work the same. The assault difference should be something else in it's functionality. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1159	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:23:00 - [13] - Quote taxi bastard wrote: i agree that it would be a good move, but my biggest issue is swarm speed. even with max unlock time the speed of the dropships with afterburners means they can even miss the second volley simply by outrunning them. This thread is not about how the best swarm launchers should fare VS some targets, it's about how weaker tiers scale to the best ones. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2360	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:34:00 - [14] - Quote I've always found it odd that most weapons are 5-10% difference between tiers but Swarms were 25%. While the idea of more missiles is cool, it really doesn't scale properly. I think pulling Adv and STD up to be 10% apart from Proto is very reasonable. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2949	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:45:00 - [15] - Quote o/ Atiim Logibro mentioned in the NK thread that he'd like to squeeze Swarm changes into Charlie. Any idea what he's referring to? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2490	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:16:00 - [16] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: My issue with having more missiles per launch is that missiles don't always hit their target. So even with proto you could still have the potential of dealing only standard damage. Standardizing the amount of missiles launched is a good idea. The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D I personally think the assault should have a reduced damage per volley (not too much but certainly notice able) in exchange for a faster lock on and travel speed. Tanker/Logi 0 The number of 7ucks given
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10560	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:16:00 - [17] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D That would make it even worse than it already is. Each missile of the Swarm hits individually, so having reduced Missile Damage would result in SLs being unable to break the Shield Recharge Delay, which was one of the SL's main problems in 1.7. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10560	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:20:00 - [18] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: o/ Atiim Logibro mentioned in the NK thread that he'd like to squeeze Swarm changes into Charlie. Any idea what he has in mind? I'm not too sure, but the only things I can really think of atm would be damage progression, ammunition, Swarm AI, and Air Speed improvements. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4363	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:36:00 - [19] - Quote We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6326	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:53:00 - [20] - Quote Nice way to think outside of the box. +1 Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1

Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10562	Posted - 2014.07.16 21:07:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels Thanks. This should also help improve the NPE. Also, I edited the spreadsheet to reflect those changes. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 614	Posted - 2014.07.16 21:08:00 - [22] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: My issue with having more missiles per launch is that missiles don't always hit their target. So even with proto you could still have the potential of dealing only standard damage. Standardizing the amount of missiles launched is a good idea. The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D I personally think the assault should have a reduced damage per volley (not too much but certainly notice able) in exchange for a faster lock on and travel speed. worst idea ever....
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1536	Posted - 2014.07.16 21:20:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels Do you mean reducing the number of missiles per swarm per tier (then boosting per-missile damage considerably) or just normalizing missiles per swarm across tiers and focusing on per missile damage for progression instead? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2490	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:35:00 - [24] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: My issue with having more missiles per launch is that missiles don't always hit their target. So even with proto you could still have the potential of dealing only standard damage. Standardizing the amount of missiles launched is a good idea. The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D I personally think the assault should have a reduced damage per volley (not too much but certainly notice able) in exchange for a faster lock on and travel speed. worst idea ever.... What would you care your to busy using crutches to use actual AV weapons. Everybody wants swarms to have a faster travel time right so if your not willing to take a slight nerf then Fck off entitled piece of Sh!t if look at the ACR it scarifies range for great CQC their is no way I am agreeing to the already high damage with a higher lock on and or travel time you to sacrifice a little something if you want to gain something no variant should just be flat out better then it's base. Provide a better idea if you'd like ******. Tanker/Logi 0 The number of 7ucks given
Zindorak CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 135	Posted - 2014.07.16 22:37:00 - [25] - Quote How about a breach variant which fires A FREAKING GIANT MISSILE thats does 1000 damage but longer lock time?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2369	Posted - 2014.07.16 23:53:00 - [26] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels Do you mean reducing the number of missiles per swarm per tier (then boosting per-missile damage considerably) or just normalizing missiles per swarm across tiers and focusing on per missile damage for progression instead? The impression I got was to reduce all swarms to fire 4 missiles, increasing PRO missiles by 50% (effective 6 missiles) and then pulling missile damage of ADV up to x% less than proto and pull STD up to x% less than ADV. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Leeroy Gannarsein Legio DXIV 502	Posted - 2014.07.16 23:59:00 - [27] - Quote I like this idea. I would like it better if it was four swarms with 330 damage than 6 swarms with 220, though. The SL craps on my framerate when it hits me from my view angle while in first person. It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4395	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:01:00 - [28] - Quote 4 across all tiers "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14614	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:17:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. The Future
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 646	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:25:00 - [30] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. To be honest, I agree with you. But I also would rather have less information here and have better gameplay performance. It's swings and roundabouts. Worse frame rate, but you know it's a proto Swarmer, or better frame rate (and less impulse I should add!) but no tier information? I'll take the frame rate thanks, since the will let me actually respond. Half the time in deciding whether I engage the AV or not is position relative to them, not damage: that is, can I draw a bead on them quickly enough (ie, between volleys) or do I just disengage and come back once I'm recharged? Alt of Halla Murr.

Harpyja Legio DXIV 2097	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:35:00 - [31] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. Also invisible swarms NEED to be fixed. It's been too many times now that I'd get hit by invisible swarms. Not only do you have no indication that they are coming so the damage is a total surprise, but you don't know where they're coming from so you're just as likely to move towards the swarmer as you are to move away. "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 647	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:40:00 - [32] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Also invisible swarms NEED to be fixed. It's been too many times now that I'd get hit by invisible swarms. Not only do you have no indication that they are coming so the damage is a total surprise, but you don't know where they're coming from so you're just as likely to move towards the swarmer as you are to move away. Now THAT I wholeheartedly agree with. I ******* hate invisible Swarms. Swarms I am fine with, it's when you're looking at the guy then you just get a ton of explosion all over you with no indication of anyone firing. Alt of Halla Murr.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1538	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:58:00 - [33] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. I would actually agree that this change will prompt risk assessment issues. However, it's not like this would be unique to swarm launchers. In fact, I don't know of any weapon, AV or AI, other than the SL that makes its tier and thus power visually apparent through its firing behavior. So I'd say we either consider this is a problem, but then it's clearly systemic that needs a global solution, or it's not which means the swarm launcher is merely getting in line with virtually every other weapons system in the game. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14617	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:00:00 - [34] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. I would actually agree that this change will prompt risk assessment issues. However, it's not like this would be unique to swarm launchers. In fact, I don't know of any weapon, AV or AI, other than the SL that makes its tier and thus power visually apparent through its firing behavior. So I'd say we either consider this is a problem, but then it's clearly systemic that needs a global solution, or it's not which means the swarm launcher is merely getting in line with virtually every other weapons system in the game. To be fair, every other weapon requires you to aim and to track your target. No other weapon is fire and forget. The Future
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1538	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:19:00 - [35] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. I would actually agree that this change will prompt risk assessment issues. However, it's not like this would be unique to swarm launchers. In fact, I don't know of any weapon, AV or AI, other than the SL that makes its tier and thus power visually apparent through its firing behavior. So I'd say we either consider this is a problem, but then it's clearly systemic that needs a global solution, or it's not which means the swarm launcher is merely getting in line with virtually every other weapons system in the game. To be fair, every other weapon requires you to aim and to track your target. No other weapon is fire and forget. How exactly does therefore follow that swarms need this distinct behavior while other weapons don't? The range of RE's are the only weapons that don't require you to have LoS, or any physical connection for that matter, to the target. Should they too therefore have a unique mechanic to make their damage potential more easily assessable? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2148	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:30:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels I'd rather you made each missile do less damage, and have the basic shoot ten missiles, the advanced shoot eleven, and the proto shoot twelve, this would not only keep in line with the normal light weapon scales of +5% damage per teir but also look hella cool "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Alena Ventrallis S0VER31GN 1453	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:32:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels This is better, because there is less missikesbin the air, which will help server load, even in a small way. Rattati has spoken. CalScout hitbox is fine. You're gun game is broken.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1538	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:37:00 - [38] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels I'd rather you made each missile do less damage, and have the basic shoot ten missiles, the advanced shoot eleven, and the proto shoot twelve, this would not only keep in line with the normal light weapon scales of +5% damage per teir but also look hella cool That could prevent the missiles from breaking shield recharge though I don't know where these thresholds actually are. Also client performance would be a concern even though it would be awesome to look at. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14619	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:53:00 - [39] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. I would actually agree that this change will prompt risk assessment issues. However, it's not like this would be unique to swarm launchers. In fact, I don't know of any weapon, AV or AI, other than the SL that makes its tier and thus power visually apparent through its firing behavior. So I'd say we either consider this is a problem, but then it's clearly systemic that needs a global solution, or it's not which means the swarm launcher is merely getting in line with virtually every other weapons system in the game. To be fair, every other weapon requires you to aim and to track your target. No other weapon is fire and forget. How exactly does therefore follow that swarms need this distinct behavior while other weapons don't? The range of RE's are the only weapons that don't require you to have LoS, or any physical connection for that matter, to the target. Should they too therefore have a unique mechanic to make their damage potential more easily assessable? Or something else entirely? REs are going to 1HKO you no matter what, so you're kind of just grasping at straws here. All I'm saying is swarm launchers are don't require you to aim in order to apply their damage, which is now quite significant, so they really don't need even more mechanics helping them apply their already significant, effortless damage. Generally speaking you're going to get hit by the first two volleys of swarms as a dropship pilot, particularly Incubus, even when you're bugging out to get away. Not having any way to know what kind of damage is coming towards you basically just assures that all we can do is fly in circles all match while some idiot spams missiles whenever we get to close. The Future
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10573	Posted - 2014.07.17 02:44:00 - [40] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: REs are going to 1HKO you no matter what, so you're kind of just grasping at straws here. STD ones won't OHK a fitted HAV, and Proximities of all tiers won't even kill you (assuming your competent). However, there are also the AV Grenades, DUST Fiend wrote: All I'm saying is swarm launchers are don't require you to aim in order to apply their damage, which is now quite significant, It's also significantly less than it's other counterpart, the Forge Gun. I'm not sure what game you've been playing for the past 2 years, but in DUST 514 ONE sacrifice comes with ONE gain. Swarms already sacrifice damage for guidance, so any sacrifice afterwards is unnecessary. Though one could also say that they sacrifice projectile speed as well, so that's actually 2 sacrifices. DUST Fiend wrote: so they really don't need even more mechanics helping them apply their already significant, effortless damage. This point is null, as their damage would be applied regardless of the amount of Swarms. DUST Fiend wrote: Generally speaking you're going to get hit by the first two volleys of swarms as a dropship pilot, particularly Incubus, even when you're bugging out to get away. Not if you use your Afterburner the moment you hear the Swarms. DUST Fiend wrote: Not having any way to know what kind of damage is coming towards you basically just assures that all we can do is fly in circles all match while some idiot spams missiles whenever we get to close. Actually, it ensures that you'll have to be prepared for anything. The AVer doesn't have the privilege of knowing what turret (or tier) the ADS' turret is until the engagement has started, so you shouldn't either. Though this is another null point, as the damage would be the same regardless of total Swarms, meaning you'd have to evade either way. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND

DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14619	Posted - 2014.07.17 02:48:00 - [41] - Quote Pretty sure I fear swarms more than forge guns now. A single clip from a PRO swarm will down just about every Incubus fit without once having to aim. At least I can dodge forge guns by being good. If I'm not already moving max speed in my bus I'm just free points for swarm launchers, and it basically just ensures that all I can do is fly away before I can even line up a shot to attempt to hit the commando that I won't be able to stay stable enough to kill in the time he kills me with his aim free weapon. It's ok, I'm moving on to other games, I just can't wrap my head around this game anymore and I have absolutely no desire to try anymore. Just in my death throes before I stop visiting the forums as well. The Future
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1541	Posted - 2014.07.17 03:03:00 - [42] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: REs are going to 1HKO you no matter what, so you're kind of just grasping at straws here. Not if you're in a tank. The tier can make a difference there since hotfix beta. DUST Fiend wrote: All I'm saying is swarm launchers are don't require you to aim in order to apply their damage, which is now quite significant, so they really don't need even more mechanics helping them apply their already significant, effortless damage. Generally speaking you're going to get hit by the first two volleys of swarms as a dropship pilot, particularly Incubus, even when you're bugging out to get away. Not having any way to know what kind of damage is coming towards you basically just assures that all we can do is fly in circles all match while some idiot spams missiles whenever we get to close. First of all. It's not a mechanic that makes damage application easier, it makes predicting the incoming damage harder. The a priori projected damage remains the same. Only your ability to premeditate the optimal response is impeded. Then again, and this is my second, it wouldn't be a mechanic helping them in the first place. To the contrary, swarms currently have a unique mechanic that works to their disadvantage by giving their target certain clues unlike every other weapon. Thirdly and probably most importantly. It seems your reasoning rests on the unspoken assumption that knowing the tier of the swarms used would continue to be a uniquely useful bit of information after the proposed scaling changes if the missile counts were to be left unchanged. If Rattati follows through with flattening the damage progression of SL, the damage difference between the STD SL and a PRO variant will go from 64% to somewhere between 10.25% and 21% regardless of missile count scaling. You will have to change the way you approach (or avoid) swarms in any case so I'd ask how important this mechanic really is under these conditions. Edit: Ninja'd. Atiim pretty much covered 1,2 and parts of the third point already. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8803	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:15:00 - [43] - Quote I must agree that it is far better to have all swarm missiles do the same damage and increase volley count per tier, as that why vehicles have something to go off of. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1033	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:16:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. Yes. 10% damage progessio. Std swarms at 800. Swarms are balanced for a fire amd forget skill-less weapon. no further buffs needed..
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6332	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:21:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers -Whispers- Rattati... Six looks cooler... Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10580	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:23:00 - [46] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Yes. 10% damage progessio. Std swarms at 800. Swarms are balanced for a fire amd forget skill-less weapon. no further buffs needed.. Swarms already make a sacrifice for it's guidance capabilities, so this is point is null. However, a weapon being useless at every tier below PRO is in no way balanced. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14621	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:48:00 - [47] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Yes. 10% damage progessio. Std swarms at 800. Swarms are balanced for a fire amd forget skill-less weapon. no further buffs needed.. Swarms already make a sacrifice for it's guidance capabilities, so this is point is null. However, a weapon being useless at every tier below PRO is in no way balanced. Except they aren't useless. Giving every single player on the field access to highly potent, zero skill AV is just horrible for balance and removes the incentive to actually invest. Swarms can already put out more damage than forge guns more reliably in a faster frame of Time at no personal skill if the pilot does anything but burn away at Max speed with the afterburners he is FORCED to.fit if he wishes to to survive against an. auto aim weapon. You guys.really wont stop until vehicles are just removed.from the game The Future
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10583	Posted - 2014.07.17 05:22:00 - [48] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Except they aren't useless. 880HP/swarm is about as useful as a MLT 20GJ Blaster on a Gorgon. DUST Fiend wrote: Giving every single player on the field access to highly potent, zero skill AV is just horrible for balance and removes the incentive to actually invest. 1056HP isn't really potent, especially compared to current PRO Swarms. These changes wouldn't remove the incentive to invest into Swarm Launchers, as you'll still need the higher tiers and proficiency to deal with the "better" Pilots. Though the current model removes the incentive for actually using it over FGs (where the "go PRO or go home" model doesn't exist), which is even worse for balance. DUST Fiend wrote: Swarms can already put out more damage than forge guns more reliably in a faster frame of Time at no personal skill if the pilot does anything but burn away at Max speed with the afterburners he is FORCED to.fit if he wishes to to survive against an. auto aim weapon. SL's damage output isn't nearly as reliable as FGs, as the damage from a FG can't be outrun, and aiming with a FG isn't really difficult either. Considering how Incubi travel at 50m/s, you still have a reasonable amount of time to escape (3.5s) without an Afterburner. If SLs are giving you that much trouble however, you should either fit an extender (thus negating the 1st Swarm, making the 2nd & 3rd significantly softer); or run a Python instead. DUST Fiend wrote: You guys.really wont stop until vehicles are just removed.from the game When vehicles are no longer a carcinogen to the NPE, when Pand when we don't have to "Go PRO or Go Home", we'll be happy to stop. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14621	Posted - 2014.07.17 05:49:00 - [49] - Quote Its really cute because pilots have had to "go PRO or go home" this entire time, but you just.conveniently ignore that and assume our mlt and advanced fits are totally viable in the new AV "balance" . Swarms are definitely more reliable that forges for a weapon that takes no aim. You can evade forge shots with skill and understanding of timings. Swarms you can only run from. Your shield extender suggestion assumes a single swarm on the entire map. The second you eat that first shot you are drastically more vulnerable to all AV for an extended amount of time, and are also forced to fit weaker modules to your main tank due to CPU constraints. Swarm launchers are now the staple weapon of skill-less players. Also, you can't fit two forge guns on a sentinel. It's so sad that you all need even more buffs to such an effortless weapon. It's embarrassing. The Future
Syeven Reed G0DS AM0NG MEN 768	Posted - 2014.07.17 12:02:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels You can get bad FPS at the moment the swarms explode, less missiles may help improve this to. Twitter MajLagSpike CPM Application

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3893	Posted - 2014.07.17 14:16:00 - [51] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. I donGÇÖt like it, but I have to concede that yours is probably the only reasonable solution. I liked the uniqueness of the Swarm Launcher changing missile counts, but you are right that such a large step between tiers make it very hard to balance. I liked LogibroGÇÖs solution of changing it from 4/5/6 to 6/7/8 to reduce the step between tiers, but as he discovered when testing it, the extra missiles would create a lot of lag and this game does not need more lag. So I have to grudgingly through my support behind your suggestion. +1 As an added bonus, reducing all tiers of Swarm Launcher to 4 missiles will likely reduce lag slightly. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1518	Posted - 2014.07.17 15:02:00 - [52] - Quote This is an excellent solution. Fun > Realism
SHANN da MAN D3LTA FORC3 C0VEN 252	Posted - 2014.07.17 15:08:00 - [53] - Quote I made a proposal for Swarms way back in January along the same lines as this thread ... let me see if I can find the Necro-thread. ah ... here it is ... enjoy! nothing to see here ... move along
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1076	Posted - 2014.07.17 19:15:00 - [54] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. I truly feel sorry for maddie drivers. This would mean ANY swarm launcher will pose a threat, and when grouped, certain death. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14622	Posted - 2014.07.17 20:09:00 - [55] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. I truly feel sorry for maddie drivers. This would mean ANY swarm launcher will pose a threat, and when grouped, certain death. Yup, and Atiim seems to believe that infantry are the only ones who have to skill into proto. Who knew. This also applies to Incubus, which is already owned to death by swarms if you do anything other than punch your AB and keep flying away. The Future
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1035	Posted - 2014.07.18 00:27:00 - [56] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Yes. 10% damage progessio. Std swarms at 800. Swarms are balanced for a fire amd forget skill-less weapon. no further buffs needed.. Swarms already make a sacrifice for it's guidance capabilities, so this is point is null. However, a weapon being useless at every tier below PRO is in no way balanced. you are null so stfu. There is no counter to swarms therefor no buffs needed. Why is it that you only support stuff you skilled into???
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1961	Posted - 2014.07.18 01:52:00 - [57] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: My issue with having more missiles per launch is that missiles don't always hit their target. So even with proto you could still have the potential of dealing only standard damage. Standardizing the amount of missiles launched is a good idea. The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D My thought process is that base variant swarms should fire 4 missiles. High alpha damage missiles with varying missile damages per tier, mimicking the missile turret's tier growth. 6 missiles breaks the damage up into too many individual hits. More missiles, more knock back, marginally less damage and a higher flight speed for the assault swarms would work nicely. Or am I being too greedy.... hard to say... Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1961	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:01:00 - [58] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. I truly feel sorry for maddie drivers. This would mean ANY swarm launcher will pose a threat, and when grouped, certain death. Yup, and Atiim seems to believe that infantry are the only ones who have to skill into proto. Who knew. This also applies to Incubus, which is already owned to death by swarms if you do anything other than punch your AB and keep flying away. I think you may want to start running some dedicated gunners my friend, I've had my entire 6-man AV squad wrecked by 2 incubus with two specced gunners a piece. (big road map, Border Gultch?) The sheer number of rounds flying at you guarantees you'll get tagged, and it only takes 1-2 hits to kill 90% of players. All we could do is sit in the redline and try to forge them when they got close enough. One of the most depressing matches of my recent AVing career. Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10624	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:03:00 - [59] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: you are null so stfu. There is no counter to swarms therefor no buffs needed. Why is it that you only support stuff you skilled into??? Am I null? My ideas may not always be the best, but at least I present them in an organized and orderly fashion. As for counter to the Swarm Launcher, there are always: Shield Extenders Shield Hardeners Shield Boosters Afterburners Fuel Injectors Anyone with an AP Weapon Making a quick turn around a corner Taking cover etc, etc, etc... This wouldn't be a buff to the Swarm Class as a whole, as all it does is make STD and ADV Swarms effective, whilist leaving the Absolute Swarm Launcher Damage unchanged, so that is yet another null point. Does anyone here have an argument as to why this shouldn't happen besides not wanting players who can't or don't use PRO Swarm Launchers to be effective? PS: How could I not "only support what I'm skilled into" when I've invested SP into quite literally every item in the game? The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14623	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:08:00 - [60] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. I truly feel sorry for maddie drivers. This would mean ANY swarm launcher will pose a threat, and when grouped, certain death. Yup, and Atiim seems to believe that infantry are the only ones who have to skill into proto. Who knew. This also applies to Incubus, which is already owned to death by swarms if you do anything other than punch your AB and keep flying away. I think you may want to start running some dedicated gunners my friend, I've had my entire 6-man AV squad wrecked by 2 incubus with two specced gunners a piece. (big road map, Border Gultch?) The sheer number of rounds flying at you guarantees you'll get tagged, and it only takes 1-2 hits to kill 90% of players. All we could do is sit in the redline and try to forge them when they got close enough. One of the most depressing matches of my recent AVing career. I refuse to abuse bugs but thanks for the tip. I'd have to see it to believe it, I'm a terrible forge gunner and I can down most Incubus no problem, and I know you guys run a good AV squad so I'm pretty confused lol. Would really need to see that for myself. The Future

DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14624	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:12:00 - [61] - Quote Atiim wrote: This wouldn't be a buff to the Swarm Class as a whole, as all it does is make STD and ADV Swarms effective, whilist leaving the Absolute Swarm Launcher Damage unchanged, so that is yet another null point. Does anyone here have an argument as to why this shouldn't happen besides not wanting players who can't or don't use PRO Swarm Launchers to be effective? Why should a single player who refuses to skill into AV be a persistent threat all by himself to a vehicle player who is very likely fully skilled into vehicles? Why can't he bring one other player who refuses to skill into AV to compensate for his decision to not skill into AV? Especially considering that the weapon requires no aim. The Future
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1962	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:24:00 - [62] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Atiim wrote: The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. I truly feel sorry for maddie drivers. This would mean ANY swarm launcher will pose a threat, and when grouped, certain death. Yup, and Atiim seems to believe that infantry are the only ones who have to skill into proto. Who knew. This also applies to Incubus, which is already owned to death by swarms if you do anything other than punch your AB and keep flying away. I think you may want to start running some dedicated gunners my friend, I've had my entire 6-man AV squad wrecked by 2 incubus with two specced gunners a piece. (big road map, Border Gultch?) The sheer number of rounds flying at you guarantees you'll get tagged, and it only takes 1-2 hits to kill 90% of players. All we could do is sit in the redline and try to forge them when they got close enough. One of the most depressing matches of my recent AVing career. I refuse to abuse bugs but thanks for the tip. I'd have to see it to believe it, I'm a terrible forge gunner and I can down most Incubus no problem, and I know you guys run a good AV squad so I'm pretty confused lol. Would really need to see that for myself. It's that crazy range. They knew where we were spawning because we were redlined, so they knew where to look for us and just spammed rounds at us in our redline. SOOO frustrating because our blues were worthless and wouldn't push when we managed to shoo them away to recover, so we stayed redlined for the entirety of our MCC's armor >_< I didn't realize stacking skills was a bug, huh. I would like to see ADS's get more PG/CPU and an additional slot a piece, but that's for another thread. Make THAT thread, and I'll be there. Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10625	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:26:00 - [63] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Yup, and Atiim seems to believe that infantry are the only ones who have to skill into proto. Who knew. Hmm... Basic 120mm Plates Basic 60mm Plates Basic Heavy Armor Repairer Basic Armor Hardener* Basic Light Shield Extender Basic Light Shield Booster Basic Heavy Shield Extender Basic Heavy Shield Booster Basic Shield Hardener* Basic Fuel Injector* Basic Afterburner* Basic Damage Amplifier ST-1 Missile Launcher 20GJ Railgun All of these items are perfectly viable, and some (marked with an asterisk) are equally viable through all tiers. DUST Fiend wrote: This also applies to Incubus, which is already owned to death by swarms if you do anything other than punch your AB and keep flying away. Perhaps you should fit a Shield Extender. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1544	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:29:00 - [64] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: you are null so stfu. There is no counter to swarms therefor no buffs needed. Why is it that you only support stuff you skilled into??? Am I null? My ideas may not always be the best, but at least I present them in an organized and orderly fashion. As for counter to the Swarm Launcher, there are always: Shield Extenders Shield Hardeners Shield Boosters Afterburners Fuel Injectors Anyone with an AP Weapon Making a quick turn around a corner Taking cover etc, etc, etc... This wouldn't be a buff to the Swarm Class as a whole, as all it does is make STD and ADV Swarms effective, whilist leaving the Absolute Swarm Launcher Damage unchanged, so that is yet another null point. Does anyone here have an argument as to why this shouldn't happen besides not wanting players who can't or don't use PRO Swarm Launchers to be effective? PS: How could I not "only support what I'm skilled into" when I've invested SP into quite literally every item in the game? At the risk of having Atiim disagree with me here, let me just add that I see no reason why nerfing swarms overall with the new scaling in mind should be out of question IFF this change ends up causing a real balance problem. The current swarm progression is out of line with every other primary weapon in the game and it causes an obvious issue. Where in the damage spectrum the family of swarms should generally fall is a seperate matter that we could be discussing right now instead of arguing about preserving a clear game design flaw that has no reason to exist besides maybe, incidentally masking a more fundamental problem that has always existed regardless. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1962	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:30:00 - [65] - Quote Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Yup, and Atiim seems to believe that infantry are the only ones who have to skill into proto. Who knew. Hmm... Basic 120mm Plates Basic 60mm Plates Basic Heavy Armor Repairer Basic Armor Hardener* Basic Light Shield Extender Basic Light Shield Booster Basic Heavy Shield Extender Basic Heavy Shield Booster Basic Shield Hardener* Basic Fuel Injector* Basic Afterburner* Basic Damage Amplifier ST-1 Missile Launcher 20GJ Railgun All of these items are perfectly viable, and some (marked with an asterisk) are equally viable through all tiers. DUST Fiend wrote: This also applies to Incubus, which is already owned to death by swarms if you do anything other than punch your AB and keep flying away. Perhaps you should fit a Shield Extender. To be fair, even if you could fit a shield extender to an Incubus without sacrificing the rest of your fit, you only have one high slot so you loose out on the be-all-end-all module all ADS's need to properly escape from AV - the Afterburner. But beyond that, I don't want to interrupt you two. I'll be on my way. o/ Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10625	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:34:00 - [66] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Why should a single player who refuses to skill into AV be a persistent threat all by himself to a vehicle player who is very likely fully skilled into vehicles? Why can't he bring one other player who refuses to skill into AV to compensate for his decision to not skill into AV? At no point in time should any weapon of any tier be ineffective within it's niche that equipping it does more harm than good. Making vehicles "near-immune" to lower tiered Swarms is also carcinogenic to the new player experience. Though even if the weapon itself is good, it's up to the player to make good use of it. If the Pilot is truly skilled, then they'll have no problem defeating the AVer. Investment Gëá Victory DUST Fiend wrote: Especially considering that the weapon requires no aim. Swarm Launchers already make sacrifices for their guidance capabilities, so this is yet again, null. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14624	Posted - 2014.07.18 03:05:00 - [67] - Quote Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why should a single player who refuses to skill into AV be a persistent threat all by himself to a vehicle player who is very likely fully skilled into vehicles? Why can't he bring one other player who refuses to skill into AV to compensate for his decision to not skill into AV? At no point in time should any weapon of any tier be ineffective within it's niche that equipping it does more harm than good. Making vehicles "near-immune" to lower tiered Swarms is also carcinogenic to the new player experience. Though even if the weapon itself is good, it's up to the player to make good use of it. If the Pilot is truly skilled, then they'll have no problem defeating the AVer. Investment Gëá Victory DUST Fiend wrote: Especially considering that the weapon requires no aim. Swarm Launchers already make sacrifices for their guidance capabilities, so this is yet again, null. If there was any way to avoid swarms other than running away, I would be inclined to agree with you. Giving every single player on the field access to effortless AV that is threatening at all tiers (low tier swarms ARE threatening when not solo, wow, who knew) ensures that all we ever do is run away with the occasional fly by to steal a kill. And, of course, it further reduces the desire to fit blasters or rails since sitting still in an incubus on a field full of AV is certain death, especially with your asinine suggestion of adding a couple hundred shield HP at the expense of my armor tank and an AB. Your wisdom pours down upon me like a waterfall from the heavens. The Future
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1967	Posted - 2014.07.18 03:31:00 - [68] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why should a single player who refuses to skill into AV be a persistent threat all by himself to a vehicle player who is very likely fully skilled into vehicles? Why can't he bring one other player who refuses to skill into AV to compensate for his decision to not skill into AV? At no point in time should any weapon of any tier be ineffective within it's niche that equipping it does more harm than good. Making vehicles "near-immune" to lower tiered Swarms is also carcinogenic to the new player experience. Though even if the weapon itself is good, it's up to the player to make good use of it. If the Pilot is truly skilled, then they'll have no problem defeating the AVer. Investment Gëá Victory DUST Fiend wrote: Especially considering that the weapon requires no aim. Swarm Launchers already make sacrifices for their guidance capabilities, so this is yet again, null. If there was any way to avoid swarms other than running away, I would be inclined to agree with you. Giving every single player on the field access to effortless AV that is threatening at all tiers (low tier swarms ARE threatening when not solo, wow, who knew) ensures that all we ever do is run away with the occasional fly by to steal a kill. And, of course, it further reduces the desire to fit blasters or rails since sitting still in an incubus on a field full of AV is certain death, especially with your asinine suggestion of adding a couple hundred shield HP at the expense of my armor tank and an AB. Your wisdom pours down upon me like a waterfall from the heavens. I truly feel that an additional high slot to the Incubus and an additional low for the Python (coinciding with a suitable pg/cpu bump) would help with this. Armor ADS's could toss on a shield booster to give themselves their small amount of shields back to buffer them v swarms or toss on an extender to give them a buffer before their armor is breached without loosing their afterburner slot, and Pythons would have an additional low for an armor rep or an extra pg/cpu upgrade. I'm not sure the buff for the Python is 100% called for, but I truly feel that the Incubus should have at least 2 highs. It's fitting options are far too limited without it. Side-note: If it were possible, I would have preferred the after burner to be built-in and a module option made available that increases it's effectiveness instead of having the current system. The afterburner is far too vital to an ADS's functionality as things currently stand. Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 124	Posted - 2014.07.18 04:06:00 - [69] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Atiim wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why should a single player who refuses to skill into AV be a persistent threat all by himself to a vehicle player who is very likely fully skilled into vehicles? Why can't he bring one other player who refuses to skill into AV to compensate for his decision to not skill into AV? At no point in time should any weapon of any tier be ineffective within it's niche that equipping it does more harm than good. Making vehicles "near-immune" to lower tiered Swarms is also carcinogenic to the new player experience. Though even if the weapon itself is good, it's up to the player to make good use of it. If the Pilot is truly skilled, then they'll have no problem defeating the AVer. Investment Gëá Victory DUST Fiend wrote: Especially considering that the weapon requires no aim. Swarm Launchers already make sacrifices for their guidance capabilities, so this is yet again, null. If there was any way to avoid swarms other than running away, I would be inclined to agree with you. Giving every single player on the field access to effortless AV that is threatening at all tiers (low tier swarms ARE threatening when not solo, wow, who knew) ensures that all we ever do is run away with the occasional fly by to steal a kill. And, of course, it further reduces the desire to fit blasters or rails since sitting still in an incubus on a field full of AV is certain death, especially with your asinine suggestion of adding a couple hundred shield HP at the expense of my armor tank and an AB. Your wisdom pours down upon me like a waterfall from the heavens. I truly feel that an additional high slot to the Incubus and an additional low for the Python (coinciding with a suitable pg/cpu bump) would help with this. Armor ADS's could toss on a shield booster to give themselves their small amount of shields back to buffer them v swarms or toss on an extender to give them a buffer before their armor is breached without loosing their afterburner slot, and Pythons would have an additional low for an armor rep or an extra pg/cpu upgrade. I'm not sure the buff for the Python is 100% called for, but I truly feel that the Incubus should have at least 2 highs. It's fitting options are far too limited without it. Side-note: If it were possible, I would have preferred the after burner to be built-in and a module option made available that increases it's effectiveness instead of having the current system. The afterburner is far too vital to an ADS's functionality as things currently stand. To do that, we need about 50-60% more pg and cpu, with that extra slot. Currently, everything just barely fits... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1968	Posted - 2014.07.18 04:14:00 - [70] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: To do that, we need about 50-60% more pg and cpu, with that extra slot. Currently, everything just barely fits... Things are supposed to just barely fit. That's the idea, sacrificing some things to fit others. It's the same for everything else in the game with only a few exceptions. No way on earth ADS pilots would get a 50-60% PG/CPU bump, that's an inane request. Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0

DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14624	Posted - 2014.07.18 07:04:00 - [71] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Things are supposed to just barely fit. Finding women who share that philosophy is always a pain, no pun intended The Future
virgindestroyer7 Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2014.07.18 07:16:00 - [72] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Things are supposed to just barely fit. Finding women who share that philosophy is always a pain in the ass, no pun intended everyone knows forum warriors are virgins so they have no idea what this means. whether pun intended or not, no one will get it. :P
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14625	Posted - 2014.07.18 07:17:00 - [73] - Quote virgindestroyer7 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Things are supposed to just barely fit. Finding women who share that philosophy is always a pain in the ass, no pun intended everyone knows forum warriors are virgins so they have no idea what this means. whether pun intended or not, no one will get it. :P I'm a virgin, I don't get it The Future
virgindestroyer7 Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2014.07.18 07:19:00 - [74] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: virgindestroyer7 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Things are supposed to just barely fit. Finding women who share that philosophy is always a pain in the ass, no pun intended everyone knows forum warriors are virgins so they have no idea what this means. whether pun intended or not, no one will get it. :P I'm a virgin, I don't get it hook a sister up? i didn't get this name for nothing. though i am partial to the 7 at the end of my name by now...
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14628	Posted - 2014.07.18 07:20:00 - [75] - Quote virgindestroyer7 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: virgindestroyer7 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Things are supposed to just barely fit. Finding women who share that philosophy is always a pain in the ass, no pun intended everyone knows forum warriors are virgins so they have no idea what this means. whether pun intended or not, no one will get it. :P I'm a virgin, I don't get it hook a sister up? i didn't get this name for nothing. though i am partial to the 7 at the end of my name by now... You can destroy me any day of the week. I heard that kinky is good, but I don't really know what that is? Is it like, when you touch their bum? The Future
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 124	Posted - 2014.07.18 07:46:00 - [76] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: To do that, we need about 50-60% more pg and cpu, with that extra slot. Currently, everything just barely fits... Things are supposed to just barely fit. That's the idea, sacrificing some things to fit others. It's the same for everything else in the game with only a few exceptions. No way on earth ADS pilots would get a 50-60% PG/CPU bump, that's an inane request. Having another slot would be useless when you literally could not fit anything else in it. By the way, the 50-60% CPU/PG increase are just estimates, but without more cpu/pg you could not fit a booster as you stated previously... not even with a complex pg extender. The Incubus use to have 2high and 4Low, which was marvelous and balanced (not OP) when you could fit what you wanted and needed with the old module cpu/pg values, you would still get eaten alive by AV thought, but ever since they did the vehicle overhaul in 1.7 and "buffed" the ADS, they have been terrible ever since. I'm serious though... you could not fit anything in that extra slot without more cpu and pg that is not provided through the respective modules. You can not sacrifice module slots with an ADS. Doing so is butchering your thin line of life and death as a pilot. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1970	Posted - 2014.07.18 07:53:00 - [77] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: To do that, we need about 50-60% more pg and cpu, with that extra slot. Currently, everything just barely fits... Things are supposed to just barely fit. That's the idea, sacrificing some things to fit others. It's the same for everything else in the game with only a few exceptions. No way on earth ADS pilots would get a 50-60% PG/CPU bump, that's an inane request. Having another slot would be useless when you literally could not fit anything else in it. By the way, the 50-60% CPU/PG increase are just estimates, but without more cpu/pg you could not fit a booster as you stated previously... not even with a complex pg extender. The Incubus use to have 2high and 4Low, which was marvelous and balanced (not OP) when you could fit what you wanted and needed with the old module cpu/pg values, you would still get eaten alive by AV thought, but ever since they did the vehicle overhaul in 1.7 and "buffed" the ADS, they have been terrible ever since. I'm serious though... you could not fit anything in that extra slot without more cpu and pg that is not provided through the respective modules. You can not sacrifice module slots with an ADS. Doing so is butchering your thin line of life and death as a pilot. I.... DID sorta specifically say "with a suitable pg/cpu bump" in that post.... Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 124	Posted - 2014.07.18 08:07:00 - [78] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: To do that, we need about 50-60% more pg and cpu, with that extra slot. Currently, everything just barely fits... Things are supposed to just barely fit. That's the idea, sacrificing some things to fit others. It's the same for everything else in the game with only a few exceptions. No way on earth ADS pilots would get a 50-60% PG/CPU bump, that's an inane request. Having another slot would be useless when you literally could not fit anything else in it. By the way, the 50-60% CPU/PG increase are just estimates, but without more cpu/pg you could not fit a booster as you stated previously... not even with a complex pg extender. The Incubus use to have 2high and 4Low, which was marvelous and balanced (not OP) when you could fit what you wanted and needed with the old module cpu/pg values, you would still get eaten alive by AV thought, but ever since they did the vehicle overhaul in 1.7 and "buffed" the ADS, they have been terrible ever since. I'm serious though... you could not fit anything in that extra slot without more cpu and pg that is not provided through the respective modules. You can not sacrifice module slots with an ADS. Doing so is butchering your thin line of life and death as a pilot. I.... DID sorta specifically say "with a suitable pg/cpu bump" in that post.... That 'suitable pg/cpu bump' will need to be a value of 40-60% increase if you want to stay alive from getting hit by AV with a decent fit... as I said before, you can not simply sacrifice modules with an ADS if you want to keep it. I mean no disrespect. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1036	Posted - 2014.07.21 02:01:00 - [79] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: you are null so stfu. There is no counter to swarms therefor no buffs needed. Why is it that you only support stuff you skilled into??? Am I null? My ideas may not always be the best, but at least I present them in an organized and orderly fashion. As for counter to the Swarm Launcher, there are always: Shield Extenders Shield Hardeners Shield Boosters Afterburners Fuel Injectors Anyone with an AP Weapon Making a quick turn around a corner Taking cover etc, etc, etc... This wouldn't be a buff to the Swarm Class as a whole, as all it does is make STD and ADV Swarms effective, whilist leaving the Absolute Swarm Launcher Damage unchanged, so that is yet another null point. Does anyone here have an argument as to why this shouldn't happen besides not wanting players who can't or don't use PRO Swarm Launchers to be effective? PS: How could I not "only support what I'm skilled into" when I've invested SP into quite literally every item in the game? to dodge bullets you strafe... to dodge swarms in the sky is like impossible unless you hide behind a building the whole match and you cant even fight back since you cannot hit anything beyond 50m without luck. Also a swarmer to an ADS pilot from 80m is like a grain of sand on a 50 inch TV. Oh btw, swarm users are more than capable of fighting back, ScP and SMG are one of the best guns in the game. The assault ScP is literally one of the best weapons in the game, but OHH WAIT, that takes too much skill to use since it doesn't lock on to targets therefore we are defenseless. Edit- tanks are fine.
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10768	Posted - 2014.07.21 02:18:00 - [80] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: to dodge bullets you strafe... to dodge swarms in the sky is like impossible unless you hide behind a building the whole match and you cant even fight back since you cannot hit anything beyond 50m without luck. Also a swarmer to an ADS pilot from 80m is like a grain of sand on a 50 inch TV. And this is an argument against making STD & ADV Swarm Launchers effective, how? Sir Dukey wrote: Oh btw, swarm users are more than capable of fighting back, ScP and SMG are one of the best guns in the game. The assault ScP is literally one of the best weapons in the game, but OHH WAIT, that takes too much skill to use since it doesn't lock on to targets therefore we are defenseless. The moment you begin using a ScP or SMG, is the moment that you become a ScP or SMG user, not a Swarm user. That's be like me saying Large Missile users can easily rack-up kills because they can use 20GJ Railguns. Assuming equal skill, the rifle user will always win, due to the superior stats of their sidearm equivalent. In terms of how "great" weapons are, the best would have to go to the Combat Rifle, and HMG. Assault SCPs would have a spot up there, but the RoF nerf removed that status. Do you have an actual argument, or are you just going to stand on a soap box screaming at people because you don't want new players to stand a chance against you? Sir Dukey wrote: Edit- tanks are fine. In a PRO vs PRO engagement, yes. In a STD/ADV vs STD/ADV/PRO engagement, far from (at least where SLs are concerned). Once a ScRub, always a sCRub. -HAND

Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1036	Posted - 2014.07.21 03:51:00 - [81] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: to dodge bullets you strafe... to dodge swarms in the sky is like impossible unless you hide behind a building the whole match and you cant even fight back since you cannot hit anything beyond 50m without luck. Also a swarmer to an ADS pilot from 80m is like a grain of sand on a 50 inch TV. And this is an argument against making STD & ADV Swarm Launchers effective, how? Sir Dukey wrote: Oh btw, swarm users are more than capable of fighting back, ScP and SMG are one of the best guns in the game. The assault ScP is literally one of the best weapons in the game, but OHH WAIT, that takes too much skill to use since it doesn't lock on to targets therefore we are defenseless. The moment you begin using a ScP or SMG, is the moment that you become a ScP or SMG user, not a Swarm user. That's be like me saying Large Missile users can easily rack-up kills because they can use 20GJ Railguns. Assuming equal skill, the rifle user will always win, due to the superior stats of their sidearm equivalent. In terms of how "great" weapons are, the best would have to go to the Combat Rifle, and HMG. Assault SCPs would have a spot up there, but the RoF nerf removed that status. Do you have an actual argument, or are you just going to stand on a soap box screaming at people because you don't want new players to stand a chance against you? Sir Dukey wrote: Edit- tanks are fine. In a PRO vs PRO engagement, yes. In a STD/ADV vs STD/ADV/PRO engagement, far from (at least where SLs are concerned). Since when did new players every have a chance? There is no reason to skull into something If it's already effective at std/adv levels unless your overkill. Thus is what Happen with std cloaks before the nerfa. They were just as effective as proto and much much much easier to fit. What is your reason to buff std/adv swarms.. is it because poor basterds cant one clip my proto fitted tank/ dropship worth over 500k isk. One volley of militia swams makes my python run. Stfu and adapt.
Atiim Commando Perkone Caldari State 10771	Posted - 2014.07.21 04:55:00 - [82] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Since when did new players every have a chance? There is no reason to skull into something If it's already effective at std/adv levels unless your overkill. Thus is what Happen with std cloaks before the nerfa. Since always? Put any skilled player in a MLT/STD and they'll still perform well. Null point. There's also no reason skill into something if you'd only be remotely effective at PRO, especially when other items with the same role allow you to be effective at all tiers. Sir Dukey wrote: They were just as effective as proto and much much much easier to fit. What is your reason to buff std/adv swarms.. is it because poor basterds cant one clip my proto fitted tank/ dropship worth over 500k isk. This is also null, because while the STD/ADV SLs (with these new changes) will be effective, they still won't be as effective as PRO (especially compared to the efficiency of STD/ADV vs. PRO tiers found in other items). I've already explained my reasoning through this thread, though I'd like to see your reasoning as to why they shouldn't be buffed, as so far you've presented none. Sir Dukey wrote: One volley of militia swams makes my python run. Your Python is threatened by MLT SLs? You should probably start fitting Shield Hardners. Though I highly doubt that only 704 HP (422HP w//Hardener) forces you to take evasive action. If you find yourself doing anything but laughing at that, you have a serious problem. Sir Dukey wrote: Stfu and adapt Adapt to what? I already have PRO Swarms and enough ISK to lose 1000s of my AV suits and still not have to worry about ISK financially. This change won't benefit me. Once a ScRub, always a sCRub. -HAND
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1036	Posted - 2014.07.21 05:01:00 - [83] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Since when did new players every have a chance? There is no reason to skull into something If it's already effective at std/adv levels unless your overkill. Thus is what Happen with std cloaks before the nerfa. Since always? Put any skilled player in a MLT/STD and they'll still perform well. Null point. There's also no reason skill into something if you'd only be remotely effective at PRO, especially when other items with the same role allow you to be effective at all tiers. Sir Dukey wrote: They were just as effective as proto and much much much easier to fit. What is your reason to buff std/adv swarms.. is it because poor basterds cant one clip my proto fitted tank/ dropship worth over 500k isk. This is also null, because while the STD/ADV SLs (with these new changes) will be effective, they still won't be as effective as PRO (especially compared to the efficiency of STD/ADV vs. PRO tiers found in other items). I've already explained my reasoning through this thread, though I'd like to see your reasoning as to why they shouldn't be buffed, as so far you've presented none. Sir Dukey wrote: One volley of militia swams makes my python run. Your Python is threatened by MLT SLs? You should probably start fitting Shield Hardners. Though I highly doubt that only 704 HP (422HP w//Hardener) forces you to take evasive action. If you find yourself doing anything but laughing at that, you have a serious problem. Sir Dukey wrote: Stfu and adapt Adapt to what? I already have PRO Swarms and enough ISK to lose 1000s of my AV suits and still not have to worry about ISK financially. This change won't benefit me. reason not to buff: because they are balanced.
Atiim Commando Perkone Caldari State 10771	Posted - 2014.07.21 05:06:00 - [84] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: because they are balanced. Having a 25% increase per tier while not being able to kill anything is in no way balanced. Is that really the best you've got? Once a ScRub, always a sCRub. -HAND
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1036	Posted - 2014.07.21 15:09:00 - [85] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: because they are balanced. Having a 25% increase per tier while not being able to kill anything is in no way balanced. Is that really the best you've got? But it does kill and I do it all the time with my adv swarms. Also, chasing away something is just as good as killing it. Also, swarms are not great at killing shield so stop being a dumbass and pulling out on a vehicle with 5300 shields and a hardener. 25% means nothing as long as the weapon is viable which it is. Av does not need to be more ease mode than it already is. Use av/flux nades if you have too... res are also good and swarms are too. Stop being a sore loser. Swams give up firepower so it can be fitted on a light/medium suit.


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