DUST Search - [Request] Swarm Launcher Damage Progression

DUST Fiend wrote:

Malkai Inos wrote:

DUST Fiend wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

4 across all tiers

As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now.

Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you.

I would actually agree that this change will prompt risk assessment issues. However, it's not like this would be unique to swarm launchers. In fact, I don't know of any weapon, AV or AI, other than the SL that makes its tier and thus power visually apparent through its firing behavior.

So I'd say we either consider this is a problem, but then it's clearly systemic that needs a global solution, or it's not which means the swarm launcher is merely getting in line with virtually every other weapons system in the game.

To be fair, every other weapon requires you to aim and to track your target. No other weapon is fire and forget.

You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1530	Posted - 2014.07.16 02:39:00 - [1] - Quote Agreed. The current progression makes the SL a prototypical noob trap. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1536	Posted - 2014.07.16 21:20:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels Do you mean reducing the number of missiles per swarm per tier (then boosting per-missile damage considerably) or just normalizing missiles per swarm across tiers and focusing on per missile damage for progression instead? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1538	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:58:00 - [3] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. I would actually agree that this change will prompt risk assessment issues. However, it's not like this would be unique to swarm launchers. In fact, I don't know of any weapon, AV or AI, other than the SL that makes its tier and thus power visually apparent through its firing behavior. So I'd say we either consider this is a problem, but then it's clearly systemic that needs a global solution, or it's not which means the swarm launcher is merely getting in line with virtually every other weapons system in the game. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1538	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:19:00 - [4] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 4 across all tiers As a pilot I greatly dislike this change. We already have virtually no information to go off of when coming under fire, now you're removing the only indicator that tells me whether I can tank that second shot or if I have to run away because swarms just effortlessly destroy armor now. Having no indicator other than waiting to get owned by a ton of damage is a serious minus, as well as being a hell of a lot less cool than 6 missiles flying at you. I would actually agree that this change will prompt risk assessment issues. However, it's not like this would be unique to swarm launchers. In fact, I don't know of any weapon, AV or AI, other than the SL that makes its tier and thus power visually apparent through its firing behavior. So I'd say we either consider this is a problem, but then it's clearly systemic that needs a global solution, or it's not which means the swarm launcher is merely getting in line with virtually every other weapons system in the game. To be fair, every other weapon requires you to aim and to track your target. No other weapon is fire and forget. How exactly does therefore follow that swarms need this distinct behavior while other weapons don't? The range of RE's are the only weapons that don't require you to have LoS, or any physical connection for that matter, to the target. Should they too therefore have a unique mechanic to make their damage potential more easily assessable? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1538	Posted - 2014.07.17 01:37:00 - [5] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels I'd rather you made each missile do less damage, and have the basic shoot ten missiles, the advanced shoot eleven, and the proto shoot twelve, this would not only keep in line with the normal light weapon scales of +5% damage per teir but also look hella cool That could prevent the missiles from breaking shield recharge though I don't know where these thresholds actually are. Also client performance would be a concern even though it would be awesome to look at. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1541	Posted - 2014.07.17 03:03:00 - [6] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: REs are going to 1HKO you no matter what, so you're kind of just grasping at straws here. Not if you're in a tank. The tier can make a difference there since hotfix beta. DUST Fiend wrote: All I'm saying is swarm launchers are don't require you to aim in order to apply their damage, which is now quite significant, so they really don't need even more mechanics helping them apply their already significant, effortless damage. Generally speaking you're going to get hit by the first two volleys of swarms as a dropship pilot, particularly Incubus, even when you're bugging out to get away. Not having any way to know what kind of damage is coming towards you basically just assures that all we can do is fly in circles all match while some idiot spams missiles whenever we get to close. First of all. It's not a mechanic that makes damage application easier, it makes predicting the incoming damage harder. The a priori projected damage remains the same. Only your ability to premeditate the optimal response is impeded. Then again, and this is my second, it wouldn't be a mechanic helping them in the first place. To the contrary, swarms currently have a unique mechanic that works to their disadvantage by giving their target certain clues unlike every other weapon. Thirdly and probably most importantly. It seems your reasoning rests on the unspoken assumption that knowing the tier of the swarms used would continue to be a uniquely useful bit of information after the proposed scaling changes if the missile counts were to be left unchanged. If Rattati follows through with flattening the damage progression of SL, the damage difference between the STD SL and a PRO variant will go from 64% to somewhere between 10.25% and 21% regardless of missile count scaling. You will have to change the way you approach (or avoid) swarms in any case so I'd ask how important this mechanic really is under these conditions. Edit: Ninja'd. Atiim pretty much covered 1,2 and parts of the third point already. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1544	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:29:00 - [7] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: you are null so stfu. There is no counter to swarms therefor no buffs needed. Why is it that you only support stuff you skilled into??? Am I null? My ideas may not always be the best, but at least I present them in an organized and orderly fashion. As for counter to the Swarm Launcher, there are always: Shield Extenders Shield Hardeners Shield Boosters Afterburners Fuel Injectors Anyone with an AP Weapon Making a quick turn around a corner Taking cover etc, etc, etc... This wouldn't be a buff to the Swarm Class as a whole, as all it does is make STD and ADV Swarms effective, whilist leaving the Absolute Swarm Launcher Damage unchanged, so that is yet another null point. Does anyone here have an argument as to why this shouldn't happen besides not wanting players who can't or don't use PRO Swarm Launchers to be effective? PS: How could I not "only support what I'm skilled into" when I've invested SP into quite literally every item in the game? At the risk of having Atiim disagree with me here, let me just add that I see no reason why nerfing swarms overall with the new scaling in mind should be out of question IFF this change ends up causing a real balance problem. The current swarm progression is out of line with every other primary weapon in the game and it causes an obvious issue. Where in the damage spectrum the family of swarms should generally fall is a seperate matter that we could be discussing right now instead of arguing about preserving a clear game design flaw that has no reason to exist besides maybe, incidentally masking a more fundamental problem that has always existed regardless. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...