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[Request] Swarm Launcher Damage Progression

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10530	Posted - 2014.07.16 02:30:00 - [1] - Quote The Problem Swarm Launchers have a damage increase of 25% per tier. Not only is this ridiculously higher than any other item in the game, but it makes lower tiered Swarm Launchers effectively useless as well (880 HP per volley is pathetic). The Solution My proposition, would be to make them fire the same amount of Missiles per Volley, but with 10% increments in Missile Damage per tier, which will bring it's progression in-line with other items, while making STD Swarm Launchers viable. I made a spreadsheet with the proposed changes here. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10560	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:16:00 - [2] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: The Assault Variant could then fire more missiles with reduced damage, how does that sound? :D That would make it even worse than it already is. Each missile of the Swarm hits individually, so having reduced Missile Damage would result in SLs being unable to break the Shield Recharge Delay, which was one of the SL's main problems in 1.7. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10560	Posted - 2014.07.16 20:20:00 - [3] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: o/ Atiim Logibro mentioned in the NK thread that he'd like to squeeze Swarm changes into Charlie. Any idea what he has in mind? I'm not too sure, but the only things I can really think of atm would be damage progression, ammunition, Swarm AI, and Air Speed improvements. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10562	Posted - 2014.07.16 21:07:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just looked at some swarm changes in line with this, I think reducing number of missiles per swarm and increasing swarm damage, bringing STD and ADV considerably up to PRO dmg levels Thanks. This should also help improve the NPE. Also, I edited the spreadsheet to reflect those changes. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10573	Posted - 2014.07.17 02:44:00 - [5] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: REs are going to 1HKO you no matter what, so you're kind of just grasping at straws here. STD ones won't OHK a fitted HAV, and Proximities of all tiers won't even kill you (assuming your competent). However, there are also the AV Grenades, DUST Fiend wrote: All I'm saying is swarm launchers are don't require you to aim in order to apply their damage, which is now quite significant, It's also significantly less than it's other counterpart, the Forge Gun. I'm not sure what game you've been playing for the past 2 years, but in DUST 514 ONE sacrifice comes with ONE gain. Swarms already sacrifice damage for guidance, so any sacrifice afterwards is unnecessary. Though one could also say that they sacrifice projectile speed as well, so that's actually 2 sacrifices. DUST Fiend wrote: so they really don't need even more mechanics helping them apply their already significant, effortless damage. This point is null, as their damage would be applied regardless of the amount of Swarms. DUST Fiend wrote: Generally speaking you're going to get hit by the first two volleys of swarms as a dropship pilot, particularly Incubus, even when you're bugging out to get away. Not if you use your Afterburner the moment you hear the Swarms. DUST Fiend wrote: Not having any way to know what kind of damage is coming towards you basically just assures that all we can do is fly in circles all match while some idiot spams missiles whenever we get to close. Actually, it ensures that you'll have to be prepared for anything. The AVer doesn't have the privilege of knowing what turret (or tier) the ADS' turret is until the engagement has started, so you shouldn't either. Though this is another null point, as the damage would be the same regardless of total Swarms, meaning you'd have to evade either way. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10580	Posted - 2014.07.17 04:23:00 - [6] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Yes. 10% damage progessio. Std swarms at 800. Swarms are balanced for a fire amd forget skill-less weapon. no further buffs needed.. Swarms already make a sacrifice for it's guidance capabilities, so this is point is null. However, a weapon being useless at every tier below PRO is in no way balanced. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10583	Posted - 2014.07.17 05:22:00 - [7] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Except they aren't useless. 880HP/swarm is about as useful as a MLT 20GJ Blaster on a Gorgon. DUST Fiend wrote: Giving every single player on the field access to highly potent, zero skill AV is just horrible for balance and removes the incentive to actually invest. 1056HP isn't really potent, especially compared to current PRO Swarms. These changes wouldn't remove the incentive to invest into Swarm Launchers, as you'll still need the higher tiers and proficiency to deal with the "better" Pilots. Though the current model removes the incentive for actually using it over FGs (where the "go PRO or go home" model doesn't exist), which is even worse for balance. DUST Fiend wrote: Swarms can already put out more damage than forge guns more reliably in a faster frame of Time at no personal skill if the pilot does anything but burn away at Max speed with the afterburners he is FORCED to.fit if he wishes to to survive against an. auto aim weapon. SL's damage output isn't nearly as reliable as FGs, as the damage from a FG can't be outrun, and aiming with a FG isn't really difficult either. Considering how Incubi travel at 50m/s, you still have a reasonable amount of time to escape (3.5s) without an Afterburner. If SLs are giving you that much trouble however, you should either fit an extender (thus negating the 1st Swarm, making the 2nd & 3rd significantly softer); or run a Python instead. DUST Fiend wrote: You guys.really wont stop until vehicles are just removed.from the game When vehicles are no longer a carcinogen to the NPE, when Pand when we don't have to "Go PRO or Go Home", we'll be happy to stop. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10624	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:03:00 - [8] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: you are null so stfu. There is no counter to swarms therefor no buffs needed. Why is it that you only support stuff you skilled into??? Am I null? My ideas may not always be the best, but at least I present them in an organized and orderly fashion. As for counter to the Swarm Launcher, there are always: Shield Extenders Shield Hardeners Shield Boosters Afterburners Fuel Injectors Anyone with an AP Weapon Making a quick turn around a corner Taking cover etc, etc, etc... This wouldn't be a buff to the Swarm Class as a whole, as all it does is make STD and ADV Swarms effective, whilist leaving the Absolute Swarm Launcher Damage unchanged, so that is yet another null point. Does anyone here have an argument as to why this shouldn't happen besides not wanting players who can't or don't use PRO Swarm Launchers to be effective? PS: How could I not "only support what I'm skilled into" when I've invested SP into quite literally every item in the game? The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10625	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:26:00 - [9] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Yup, and Atiim seems to believe that infantry are the only ones who have to skill into proto. Who knew. Hmm... Basic 120mm Plates Basic 60mm Plates Basic Heavy Armor Repairer Basic Armor Hardener* Basic Light Shield Extender Basic Light Shield Booster Basic Heavy Shield Extender Basic Heavy Shield Booster Basic Shield Hardener* Basic Fuel Injector* Basic Afterburner* Basic Damage Amplifier ST-1 Missile Launcher 20GJ Railgun All of these items are perfectly viable, and some (marked with an asterisk) are equally viable through all tiers. DUST Fiend wrote: This also applies to Incubus, which is already owned to death by swarms if you do anything other than punch your AB and keep flying away. Perhaps you should fit a Shield Extender. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10625	Posted - 2014.07.18 02:34:00 - [10] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Why should a single player who refuses to skill into AV be a persistent threat all by himself to a vehicle player who is very likely fully skilled into vehicles? Why can't he bring one other player who refuses to skill into AV to compensate for his decision to not skill into AV? At no point in time should any weapon of any tier be ineffective within it's niche that equipping it does more harm than good. Making vehicles "near-immune" to lower tiered Swarms is also carcinogenic to the new player experience. Though even if the weapon itself is good, it's up to the player to make good use of it. If the Pilot is truly skilled, then they'll have no problem defeating the AVer. Investment Gëá Victory DUST Fiend wrote: Especially considering that the weapon requires no aim. Swarm Launchers already make sacrifices for their guidance capabilities, so this is yet again, null. The Snack That Smiles Back, Tankers! -HAND

Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10768	Posted - 2014.07.21 02:18:00 - [11] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: to dodge bullets you strafe... to dodge swarms in the sky is like impossible unless you hide behind a building the whole match and you cant even fight back since you cannot hit anything beyond 50m without luck. Also a swarmer to an ADS pilot from 80m is like a grain of sand on a 50 inch TV. And this is an argument against making STD & ADV Swarm Launchers effective, how? Sir Dukey wrote: Oh btw, swarm users are more than capable of fighting back, ScP and SMG are one of the best guns in the game. The assault ScP is literally one of the best weapons in the game, but OHH WAIT, that takes too much skill to use since it doesn't lock on to targets therefore we are defenseless. The moment you begin using a ScP or SMG, is the moment that you become a ScP or SMG user, not a Swarm user. That's be like me saying Large Missile users can easily rack-up kills because they can use 20GJ Railguns. Assuming equal skill, the rifle user will always win, due to the superior stats of their sidearm equivalent. In terms of how "great" weapons are, the best would have to go to the Combat Rifle, and HMG. Assault SCPs would have a spot up there, but the RoF nerf removed that status. Do you have an actual argument, or are you just going to stand on a soap box screaming at people because you don't want new players to stand a chance against you? Sir Dukey wrote: Edit- tanks are fine. In a PRO vs PRO engagement, yes. In a STD/ADV vs STD/ADV/PRO engagement, far from (at least where SLs are concerned). Once a ScRub, always a sCRub. -HAND
Atiim Commando Perkone Caldari State 10771	Posted - 2014.07.21 04:55:00 - [12] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Since when did new players every have a chance? There is no reason to skull into something If it's already effective at std/adv levels unless your overkill. Thus is what Happen with std cloaks before the nerfa. Since always? Put any skilled player in a MLT/STD and they'll still perform well. Null point. There's also no reason skill into something if you'd only be remotely effective at PRO, especially when other items with the same role allow you to be effective at all tiers. Sir Dukey wrote: They were just as effective as proto and much much much easier to fit. What is your reason to buff std/adv swarms.. is it because poor basterds cant one clip my proto fitted tank/ dropship worth over 500k isk. This is also null, because while the STD/ADV SLs (with these new changes) will be effective, they still won't be as effective as PRO (especially compared to the efficiency of STD/ADV vs. PRO tiers found in other items). I've already explained my reasoning through this thread, though I'd like to see your reasoning as to why they shouldn't be buffed, as so far you've presented none. Sir Dukey wrote: One volley of militia swams makes my python run. Your Python is threatened by MLT SLs? You should probably start fitting Shield Hardners. Though I highly doubt that only 704 HP (422HP w//Hardener) forces you to take evasive action. If you find yourself doing anything but laughing at that, you have a serious problem. Sir Dukey wrote: Stfu and adapt Adapt to what? I already have PRO Swarms and enough ISK to lose 1000s of my AV suits and still not have to worry about ISK financially. This change won't benefit me. Once a ScRub, always a sCRub. -HAND
Atiim Commando Perkone Caldari State 10771	Posted - 2014.07.21 05:06:00 - [13] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: because they are balanced. Having a 25% increase per tier while not being able to kill anything is in no way balanced. Is that really the best you've got? Once a ScRub, always a sCRub. -HAND

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