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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
79
   |
Posted - 2014.06.26 21:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits.
Solution:Inconclusive, there are many ways to remedy said situation. The main remedy that scouts are banking on is that assaults become buffed to a point that it would be impractical for a scout to act as an assault. (Or that assaults become buffed to a point so that assault users are happy enough to forget that scouts can still perform the same role.)
Suggestion: As a gallente scout, assault, heavy, and logistics player, I believe that scouts should have their innate shield regeneration switched with that of the assaults. And that possibly lengthen the recharge delay of scout suits. (Generally the regeneration of health being so quick is the main issue I find with scout suits maybe add a delay to armor repair as well)
Why? Because I believe scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, if said shield changes are made it would deter scouts from attacking enemies in quick succession.
Ex: With the current hp regeneration a scout is able to Attack---->Cloak and hide for short amount of time-------Return attack again
With proposed change scouts will be more along the lines of Attack----->Cloak and hide for enough time to replenish------>return and attack. Assaults will use the latter method and fulfill their role at "assaulting. "
Also with said changes Caldari Scouts will be less tempted to just stack shields because the recharge time would not allow them to do so effectively. Gallente Scouts will also be less likely to become a brick tank because of the time it will take considerably longer to get shield back and armor repairers will become more attractive to run . (I thinks there should be another penalty to regeneration with the gallente scout, but it might even out because their innate armor repair is only 3hp/s not sure though)
Issue with this: Amarr and Minmatar scout will be gimped even more now that their shields(especially minmatar scout) will not replenish at the higher rate. (probably leave the recharge rates the same with these two suits so they have a better role on the battlefield, but conflicts with the whole "Caldari have the best regeneration of all suits" )
Hopefully better ideas will be given in the replies to this post, rather than just rage about not fixing scouts.
If there is anything I missed please point it out for me...
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
79
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 23:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
TL;DR : Scout can go into battle step out for a little and come back because of regen so assaults and scouts regen should be switched...
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1943
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Honestly, scouts were complaining before that they had NO regen, mainly on Armor, requiring a logi.
The 3/s i feel is fine, but the assault needs a buff, maybe to 4 or 5/s, keeping it as 'slightly more regenerative' than a Scout.
Make shield delays 1s longer than the assault, eg 3/4 Seconds on Caldari Assault, 4/5 on Scout.
IMO, Assaults need better regen than Scouts/basic meds, but needs to not be monstrous.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
New Age Empire.
1565
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits.
Solution:Inconclusive, there are many ways to remedy said situation. The main remedy that scouts are banking on is that assaults become buffed to a point that it would be impractical for a scout to act as an assault. (Or that assaults become buffed to a point so that assault users are happy enough to forget that scouts can still perform the same role.)
Suggestion: As a gallente scout, assault, heavy, and logistics player, I believe that scouts should have their innate shield regeneration switched with that of the assaults. And that possibly lengthen the recharge delay of scout suits. (Generally the regeneration of health being so quick is the main issue I find with scout suits maybe add a delay to armor repair as well)
Why? Because I believe scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, if said shield changes are made it would deter scouts from attacking enemies in quick succession.
Ex: With the current hp regeneration a scout is able to Attack---->Cloak and hide for short amount of time-------Return attack again
With proposed change scouts will be more along the lines of Attack----->Cloak and hide for enough time to replenish------>return and attack. Assaults will use the latter method and fulfill their role at "assaulting. "
Also with said changes Caldari Scouts will be less tempted to just stack shields because the recharge time would not allow them to do so effectively. Gallente Scouts will also be less likely to become a brick tank because of the time it will take considerably longer to get shield back and armor repairers will become more attractive to run . (I thinks there should be another penalty to regeneration with the gallente scout, but it might even out because their innate armor repair is only 3hp/s not sure though)
Issue with this: Amarr and Minmatar scout will be gimped even more now that their shields(especially minmatar scout) will not replenish at the higher rate. (probably leave the recharge rates the same with these two suits so they have a better role on the battlefield, but conflicts with the whole "Caldari have the best regeneration of all suits" )
Hopefully better ideas will be given in the replies to this post, rather than just rage about not fixing scouts.
If there is anything I missed please point it out for me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
Closed beta vet.
If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
New Age Empire.
1566
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Honestly, scouts were complaining before that they had NO regen, mainly on Armor, requiring a logi.
The 3/s i feel is fine, but the assault needs a buff, maybe to 4 or 5/s, keeping it as 'slightly more regenerative' than a Scout.
Make shield delays 1s longer than the assault, eg 3/4 Seconds on Caldari Assault, 4/5 on Scout.
IMO, Assaults need better regen than Scouts/basic meds, but needs to not be monstrous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
Anything higher than 3s is too much
Lower assault delay.
Closed beta vet.
If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
81
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Honestly, scouts were complaining before that they had NO regen, mainly on Armor, requiring a logi.
The 3/s i feel is fine, but the assault needs a buff, maybe to 4 or 5/s, keeping it as 'slightly more regenerative' than a Scout.
Make shield delays 1s longer than the assault, eg 3/4 Seconds on Caldari Assault, 4/5 on Scout.
IMO, Assaults need better regen than Scouts/basic meds, but needs to not be monstrous.
The only issue I have is that the line between what a scout should be able to do, and an assault should be able to do would still be very skewed if we do nothing, and when they do buff assaults it would have to be something pretty drastic in order for players to consider scouts to be impractical for doing the assault role.
However this is a relatively small change.
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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shady merc
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
46
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't think the issue with assault is the fact that scouts regen to fast(the assault do need faster regen just not scout level). The problem lies within how much HP the scouts has and how easy a scout can equip 1 of the 4 Racial Rifles,
I am working on a post now. I believe the best way to make a role for the assault player is to make them the RifleMen of Dust. They would give up the least amount of thing in order to fit one of the 4 rifles we have. Hopefully I will have my post done tonight. I believe we can balance the assault by changing the CPU/PG of a couple of modules along with smaller tweaks to the suits. If we limit the HP potential of the scout better then we can ensure the assault carves a niche between scouts and commandos.
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BLOOD Ruler
The Lionheart Coalition
395
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
No
Feel the pain of my knives and the piercing pain your skull has felt to my pistol.I am the Assassin.
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1943
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Again, there's not really any TRUE way to fix this without givig scouts Debuff abilities and removing almost all of their slots in favor of higher base scoutly stats, but even that holds troublesome.
Making the Scout be self sufficient(I.E. Have at least SOME regen) they are fine as Scouts. Also necessary is scan/damp equality. Yes Caldari is a scanner suit and Gallente is a Dampener suit, but Amarr/Min are pretty muh **** out of luck trying to do anything other than assault, and many Gallente Scouts used to rely entirely on the cloak's innate % and as such didn't skill damps.
Now we're stuck with the general idea being 'tank ur scout, you won't hide anyways' and Caldari's going 'gotta find that 1% that DARE try to hide!'
And thus, unless the Calscout is a moron, he will be set up to scan ANY Min/Amarr scout, while having enough shield simultaneously to defend against those poor few Galscouts do manage to hide.
The Assault just needs to be better than a Scout in attacking, yes a Scout can run in, shotgun somebody and run out, that kinda IS the scout's current role.
Also, medframes don't gain any worthwhile amount of HP on Scouts, but lose lots.
Regeneration, all scan attributes, speed, recharge delays, etc.
This is the same delimma Pre-1.8 of Minmatar Assault just being a bad Caldari Assault.
Scouts need to give up SOMETHING to be able to hide, currently they sacrifice only 100 or so attainable HP, and gain smaller hitboxes as well, sorta countering that loss.
Tl:Dr, make Assaults slightly better at Regeneration than a Scout, along with being slightly more HP, and having a RoF or Dmg bonus, as this allows Assaults to counter those moron scouts whom believe they are invincible.
Example stats: caldari Assault, 40/s Shield Recharge, 3/4 second delays, +2% RoF or Dmg per level
Caldari Scout: 30/s Shield Regen, 4/5 Second Shield Regen, +5% to scoutly duties per level
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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shady merc
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
46
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
I agree Lynn the trick is to ensure the scouts are using items like the shotgun not cloaking up and then attacking like an assault would do to hitpoints and hitbox size. As for the scanning thing I can think of 2 things to help that out but it wont resolve it fully. |
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
82
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Posted - 2014.06.27 00:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
shady merc wrote:I don't think the issue with assault is the fact that scouts regen to fast(the assault do need faster regen just not scout level). The problem lies within how much HP the scouts has and how easy a scout can equip 1 of the 4 Racial Rifles,
I am working on a post now. I believe the best way to make a role for the assault player is to make them the RifleMen of Dust. They would give up the least amount of thing in order to fit one of the 4 rifles we have. Hopefully I will have my post done tonight. I believe we can balance the assault by changing the CPU/PG of a couple of modules along with smaller tweaks to the suits. If we limit the HP potential of the scout better then we can ensure the assault carves a niche between scouts and commandos.
Not sure why assaults shouldn't have the best regen, they're assaults they need to be able to go into battle and take cover long enough so they can attack again.
The reason tanked scouts exist is not because they are able to do so, but because it is practical to do so. It is practical for a cal scout to tank shield extenders because their innate regen will bring it back in just a few seconds. Also this change would make a lot of sense because CCP generally makes changes to suits in order to make running a role impractical, such as with the logi-assault issue CCP incentivized logis to do the logi role by giving them logi-role bonuses, as well as removing their innate armor reps, thus making logi-assault less practical.
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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shady merc
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
46
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 00:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yes they are tanking because it works. I am suggesting we limit their stacking of hit points not reduce their regen. Even with my vision the Assault still needs a boost to regen just not become better then scouts. A scout needs to pop in hit you with a high alpha weapon and disappear. they need the high regen to fight like this. They do not need the 400-600 hit points. |
Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1946
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rather than arbitrarily remove their ability to do something, why not just make the suit that it's outshining do it better?
They did it with heavies.
Assaults/logis used to do the same HP as a Sentinel, and had better bonuses.
Currently the problem is that a Scout tanks marginally less, and regens better.
Let's just make the Assault the better role for frontline offense.
Sure, we'll still have people like Jolly R0ger(Rip) who tank their scout and still do good, but that's their preference.
Back in 1.7 i ran a 3 damp Hmg Fatty, which hid from Adv scans.
Wanna put an arbitrary 'nodampsonheavies' rule because i hide better than an assault? I lose all Armor regen, and any possible extra armor, just to be a HMG Assault.
What if we put an arbitrary 'No more than 2 Precision Enhancers on a Caldari scout.'
Now THAT fixes Calscouts finding my Minja, but he now is FORCED to tank it.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1946
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Also, scouts have the ability to hide.
Scouts shouldn't be taking sufficient enough damage to necessitate a 50/s Shield regen anyways.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
shady merc wrote:Yes they are tanking because it works. I am suggesting we limit their stacking of hit points not reduce their regen. Even with my vision the Assault still needs a boost to regen just not become better then scouts. A scout needs to pop in hit you with a high alpha weapon and disappear. they need the high regen to fight like this. They do not need the 400-600 hit points.
The issue is that it is rare that CCP changes a suit so you can only have x armor and x shields, in fact i've never seen them limit a suits' capabilities not even the Logi-assault. This means that, yes even after the changes made to assaults and scouts, there will still be scouts that stack armor and shields, but it should be impractical to do so. CCP doesn't do the whole "you can't do THIS with THIS suit," in fact they encourage the innovation in suits. However, issues arise when suits begin to outperform suits outside their intended role.
In other words, you can still run a logi-assault suit but it should never outperform a real assault suit in terms of capabilities...
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1404
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Assaults need the 2% damage per level that commandos have. Commandos are changed to 20% increased magazine and max ammo capacity per level.
Assaults need a bonus that benefits their weapon, and a bonus that benefits their racial tank.
These examples are to illustrate a point.
Assault skill: 2% light/sidearm damage per level.
Amarr: 5% laser weaponry heat buildup and 5% armor plate efficiency per level
Caldari: 5% decreased reload of hybrid - rail weaponry and 5% efficiency to shield extenders per level
Gallente: 5% decreased hybrid - blaster weaponry kick and 5% efficiency to armor repairers per level
Minmatar: 10% increased projectile/explosive weapon magazine size and 10% efficiency to shield rechargers per level
This makes assaults a general purpose slayer suit, good at dealing damage with some staying power, but not near as much as heavies. Change bonuses as needed (personally I'd make minmatar have increased damage mod efficiency instead of recharger) to balance, but the idea remains. One racial weapon bonus, and one racial tank bonus.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Assaults need the 2% damage per level that commandos have. Commandos are changed to 20% increased magazine and max ammo capacity per level.
Assaults need a bonus that benefits their weapon, and a bonus that benefits their racial tank.
These examples are to illustrate a point.
Assault skill: 2% light/sidearm damage per level.
Amarr: 5% laser weaponry heat buildup and 5% armor plate efficiency per level
Caldari: 5% decreased reload of hybrid - rail weaponry and 5% efficiency to shield extenders per level
Gallente: 5% decreased hybrid - blaster weaponry kick and 5% efficiency to armor repairers per level
Minmatar: 10% increased projectile/explosive weapon magazine size and 10% efficiency to shield rechargers per level
This makes assaults a general purpose slayer suit, good at dealing damage with some staying power, but not near as much as heavies. Change bonuses as needed (personally I'd make minmatar have increased damage mod efficiency instead of recharger) to balance, but the idea remains. One racial weapon bonus, and one racial tank bonus.
I like the idea, but without some change to the scout suit, this change won't be enough to render the scout impractical for assault use. This is a good incentive for assaults to be assault suits(as if they can do anything else), however it would not in any way hinder scouts from being the assault suits they are at the moment.
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1404
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Assaults need the 2% damage per level that commandos have. Commandos are changed to 20% increased magazine and max ammo capacity per level.
Assaults need a bonus that benefits their weapon, and a bonus that benefits their racial tank.
These examples are to illustrate a point.
Assault skill: 2% light/sidearm damage per level.
Amarr: 5% laser weaponry heat buildup and 5% armor plate efficiency per level
Caldari: 5% decreased reload of hybrid - rail weaponry and 5% efficiency to shield extenders per level
Gallente: 5% decreased hybrid - blaster weaponry kick and 5% efficiency to armor repairers per level
Minmatar: 10% increased projectile/explosive weapon magazine size and 10% efficiency to shield rechargers per level
This makes assaults a general purpose slayer suit, good at dealing damage with some staying power, but not near as much as heavies. Change bonuses as needed (personally I'd make minmatar have increased damage mod efficiency instead of recharger) to balance, but the idea remains. One racial weapon bonus, and one racial tank bonus. I like the idea, but without some change to the scout suit, this change won't be enough to render the scout impractical for assault use. This is a good incentive for assaults to be assault suits(as if they can do anything else), however it would not in any way hinder scouts from being the assault suits they are at the moment.
My idea is to limit scout to 2 sidearms. Their job isn't to kill, its to scout and relay Intel. The sidearms allow it to defend itself long enough to break contact and escape.
Now assaults deal more damage, and scouts can't play as slayers.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
[/quote]
My idea is to limit scout to 2 sidearms. Their job isn't to kill, its to scout and relay Intel. The sidearms allow it to defend itself long enough to break contact and escape.
Now assaults deal more damage, and scouts can't play as slayers.[/quote]
I don't like the idea of a scout not being able to use a light weapon because two of the scout suits are already ridiculously gimped in terms of being a suit. It is also a very over-simplified way to deal with the issue...
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1404
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 01:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
My idea is to limit scout to 2 sidearms. Their job isn't to kill, its to scout and relay Intel. The sidearms allow it to defend itself long enough to break contact and escape.
Now assaults deal more damage, and scouts can't play as slayers.[/quote]
I don't like the idea of a scout not being able to use a light weapon because two of the scout suits are already ridiculously gimped in terms of being a suit. It is also a very over-simplified way to deal with the issue...[/quote]
What makes slayer suits is there ability to deal damage. Limiting them to 2 sidearms gives them plenty of options. The other 2 scout suits are gimped regardless of whether or not they can for light weapons or not, and need to be addressed separately.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 02:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:My idea is to limit scout to 2 sidearms. Their job isn't to kill, its to scout and relay Intel. The sidearms allow it to defend itself long enough to break contact and escape. Now assaults deal more damage, and scouts can't play as slayers.
I don't like the idea of a scout not being able to use a light weapon because two of the scout suits are already ridiculously gimped in terms of being a suit. It is also a very over-simplified way to deal with the issue...[/quote]
What makes slayer suits is there ability to deal damage. Limiting them to 2 sidearms gives them plenty of options. The other 2 scout suits are gimped regardless of whether or not they can for light weapons or not, and need to be addressed separately.[/quote]
The issue i have is that it limits the capabilities of a scout to use speed and stealth attacks, as well as propagates the idea that scouts should not be killing at all...
also we should stop quoting i really messed that part up...
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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Seymour KrelbornX
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
215
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Posted - 2014.06.27 02:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
I don't think regen on a scout should matter...
they should be dead in a few hits.
scouts should not have any shield or armor tank.... they are speed tankers (or should be).
a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. an unseen scout however should be a deadly scout...
I was against making cloaks less "cloaky" I think they should be invisible to all but scans. and I think they should move much quicker.
but a proto scout should die from a few shots from an std rifle, and 1/4 of a shotgun blast.
right now scouts do the assaults job better than the assault should be able to do it. |
gustavo acosta
Tharumec
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 02:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:I don't think regen on a scout should matter...
they should be dead in a few hits.
scouts should not have any shield or armor tank.... they are speed tankers (or should be).
a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. an unseen scout however should be a deadly scout...
I was against making cloaks less "cloaky" I think they should be invisible to all but scans. and I think they should move much quicker.
but a proto scout should die from a few shots from an std rifle, and 1/4 of a shotgun blast.
right now scouts do the assaults job better than the assault should be able to do it.
The role of a scout is that of either speed or stealth or a combination of the two, and stamina for the Amarr, however regen is a big part of why scouts do a better job of being assaults. When scouts do an invisible attack, as in cloak, attack ,re-cloak, leave, they only take a few seconds to replenish their health and come back to attack the enemy. If you change the regen it will make assaults better at continuously "assaulting" the enemy, it will also deter scouts from doing the job of the assault because it will take longer for them to be in the condition to do so...
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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Anmol Singh
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
741
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 02:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits.
Solution:Inconclusive, there are many ways to remedy said situation. The main remedy that scouts are banking on is that assaults become buffed to a point that it would be impractical for a scout to act as an assault. (Or that assaults become buffed to a point so that assault users are happy enough to forget that scouts can still perform the same role.)
Suggestion: As a gallente scout, assault, heavy, and logistics player, I believe that scouts should have their innate shield regeneration switched with that of the assaults. And that possibly lengthen the recharge delay of scout suits. (Generally the regeneration of health being so quick is the main issue I find with scout suits maybe add a delay to armor repair as well)
Why? Because I believe scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, if said shield changes are made it would deter scouts from attacking enemies in quick succession.
Ex: With the current hp regeneration a scout is able to Attack---->Cloak and hide for short amount of time-------Return attack again
With proposed change scouts will be more along the lines of Attack----->Cloak and hide for enough time to replenish------>return and attack. Assaults will use the latter method and fulfill their role at "assaulting. "
Also with said changes Caldari Scouts will be less tempted to just stack shields because the recharge time would not allow them to do so effectively. Gallente Scouts will also be less likely to become a brick tank because of the time it will take considerably longer to get shield back and armor repairers will become more attractive to run . (I thinks there should be another penalty to regeneration with the gallente scout, but it might even out because their innate armor repair is only 3hp/s not sure though)
Issue with this: Amarr and Minmatar scout will be gimped even more now that their shields(especially minmatar scout) will not replenish at the higher rate. (probably leave the recharge rates the same with these two suits so they have a better role on the battlefield, but conflicts with the whole "Caldari have the best regeneration of all suits" )
Hopefully better ideas will be given in the replies to this post, rather than just rage about not fixing scouts.
If there is anything I missed please point it out for me...
****** idea beyond sh*t.
Sagaris lover!!!
Commando <3
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
84
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 02:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anmol Singh wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits.
Solution:Inconclusive, there are many ways to remedy said situation. The main remedy that scouts are banking on is that assaults become buffed to a point that it would be impractical for a scout to act as an assault. (Or that assaults become buffed to a point so that assault users are happy enough to forget that scouts can still perform the same role.)
Suggestion: As a gallente scout, assault, heavy, and logistics player, I believe that scouts should have their innate shield regeneration switched with that of the assaults. And that possibly lengthen the recharge delay of scout suits. (Generally the regeneration of health being so quick is the main issue I find with scout suits maybe add a delay to armor repair as well)
Why? Because I believe scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, if said shield changes are made it would deter scouts from attacking enemies in quick succession.
Ex: With the current hp regeneration a scout is able to Attack---->Cloak and hide for short amount of time-------Return attack again
With proposed change scouts will be more along the lines of Attack----->Cloak and hide for enough time to replenish------>return and attack. Assaults will use the latter method and fulfill their role at "assaulting. "
Also with said changes Caldari Scouts will be less tempted to just stack shields because the recharge time would not allow them to do so effectively. Gallente Scouts will also be less likely to become a brick tank because of the time it will take considerably longer to get shield back and armor repairers will become more attractive to run . (I thinks there should be another penalty to regeneration with the gallente scout, but it might even out because their innate armor repair is only 3hp/s not sure though)
Issue with this: Amarr and Minmatar scout will be gimped even more now that their shields(especially minmatar scout) will not replenish at the higher rate. (probably leave the recharge rates the same with these two suits so they have a better role on the battlefield, but conflicts with the whole "Caldari have the best regeneration of all suits" )
Hopefully better ideas will be given in the replies to this post, rather than just rage about not fixing scouts.
If there is anything I missed please point it out for me... ****** idea beyond sh*t.
How so?
I specced level 5 in flaylock after the nerf if that doesn't make me God I don't know what will...
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Skullmizer Vulcansu
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 02:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
I am a scout who uses very little armor and shields, and lots of electronic warfare. I have never run out of PG, because I mostly use the suits' CPU.
I think that a fine change that would limit tanking as scouts would be to lessen the suits' PG until it is lower than Amarr Logistics suits' pg. This way it would not be impossible to stack plates as scouts, but it would be less practical.
This game makes me suicidal.
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shady merc
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
47
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Posted - 2014.06.27 03:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
Changing the Recharge rate or delay of the scout will only cause Caldari Scouts to become Gallenete brick tank scouts. Who can still scan down your assault suit or make the scout suit disappear from the battle field. Lets look at some examples I see playing out.
Scout 1 has high regen and low hit points.
He does his job and sneak behind your team and shotguns someone in the back. You hear the shot turn and hit him a few times. The scout breaks combat and tries to escape. His high recharge allow him to gain back some of that life back so he can take another hit from you before finding cover or disappearing.
Scout 2 has lower then assault regen and low hit points(he attempting to be a scout)
He does his job and sneak behind your team and shotguns someone in the back and hits you with a couple of smg bullets. You hear the shot turn and hit him a few times. Now he can try to break combat and run away, but you regen faster then he does so it benefits you if combat is broken, He could stay an fight and attempt to out last you with inferior hit points but will most likely die. If he runs you can pursue him and put the last bullet in him before he finds cover.
Scout 3 has lower then assault regen and high hit points(Scout 2 learned to not be a scout)
He does his job and sneak up behind your team. Guns down you squad mate with his CR and starts hitting you. You return fire. Now Scout 3 already knows it more beneficial to you if combat breaks so he in it for the long haul and is fully plated up. Due to the plates their is a marginal difference between your Hit points and scout got the drop on you. Your losing the hit point war so you try to break combat to make use of your high regen but the scout is faster then you and it not going to let you escape. You die.
Example 1
Scout 1 was rewarded for playing his role and feels good about the choices he made. And in this case even if he didn't find cover he probably blames himself for dying.
Example 2
Scout 2 receive no reward for doing playing his role. Yes he killed a guy but he can't escape from you.
Example 3
Scout 3 was able to gun down 2 people because it was better for him to play like an assault and tank up due to not having high regen. He also learned the using niche weapon that require position are not worth the effort and instead sticks solely to the Rifles. Scout 3 wants to fight like scout 1 but if he tries he ends up being like scout 2. So Scout 3 become an assault scout so he can still enjoy the game.
The biggest issue that we have balancing suits is the CPU and PG cost of modules. Look at the scout, it is easier to fit armor plates and shield regulators in a low slot then it is to fit Kin Cats and Code breakers. Its cheaper to fit Combat rifles then shotguns. Why regulate yourself to an intended role when you can equip more stuff by acting like an assault.
(I would like to thank everyone this has been a good discussion on the matter) |
gustavo acosta
Tharumec
85
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 04:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
shady merc wrote:Changing the Recharge rate or delay of the scout will only cause Caldari Scouts to become Gallenete brick tank scouts. Who can still scan down your assault suit or make the scout suit disappear from the battle field. Lets look at some examples I see playing out.
Scout 1 has high regen and low hit points.
He does his job and sneak behind your team and shotguns someone in the back. You hear the shot turn and hit him a few times. The scout breaks combat and tries to escape. His high recharge allow him to gain back some of that life back so he can take another hit from you before finding cover or disappearing.
Scout 2 has lower then assault regen and low hit points(he attempting to be a scout)
He does his job and sneak behind your team and shotguns someone in the back and hits you with a couple of smg bullets. You hear the shot turn and hit him a few times. Now he can try to break combat and run away, but you regen faster then he does so it benefits you if combat is broken, He could stay an fight and attempt to out last you with inferior hit points but will most likely die. If he runs you can pursue him and put the last bullet in him before he finds cover.
Scout 3 has lower then assault regen and high hit points(Scout 2 learned to not be a scout)
He does his job and sneak up behind your team. Guns down you squad mate with his CR and starts hitting you. You return fire. Now Scout 3 already knows it more beneficial to you if combat breaks so he in it for the long haul and is fully plated up. Due to the plates their is a marginal difference between your Hit points and scout got the drop on you. Your losing the hit point war so you try to break combat to make use of your high regen but the scout is faster then you and it not going to let you escape. You die.
Example 1
Scout 1 was rewarded for playing his role and feels good about the choices he made. And in this case even if he didn't find cover he probably blames himself for dying.
Example 2
Scout 2 receive no reward for doing playing his role. Yes he killed a guy but he can't escape from you.
Example 3
Scout 3 was able to gun down 2 people because it was better for him to play like an assault and tank up due to not having high regen. He also learned the using niche weapon that require position are not worth the effort and instead sticks solely to the Rifles. Scout 3 wants to fight like scout 1 but if he tries he ends up being like scout 2. So Scout 3 become an assault scout so he can still enjoy the game.
The biggest issue that we have balancing suits is the CPU and PG cost of modules. Look at the scout, it is easier to fit armor plates and shield regulators in a low slot then it is to fit Kin Cats and Code breakers. Its cheaper to fit Combat rifles then shotguns. Why regulate yourself to an intended role when you can equip more stuff by acting like an assault.
(I would like to thank everyone this has been a good discussion on the matter)
The obvious answer would be to either increase the recharge delay and allow the same amount of regen, because then scouts would be able to still regen, or to allow the same recharge delay and lower the amount of regen. This would also incentivize scout to do more than just stack shield or armor plates.
Low regeneration rate would incentivize scouts to use shield rechargers or energizers, as well as armor repairs, and shield regulators. It is because of the high regeneration of health that scouts have they do not worry about stacking too much armor/ shield, because they will quickly come back.
Higher regeneration rate on assault will allow for assault suits to return to the battlefield and fulfill their role of assault.
Also a bricked tank caldari scout would not be as good as you would think mainly because it has to use one slot for reps and the other slot for plates. Also if said changes to shield regen as well then caldari scouts would take longer to get thier shield back when they are injured even with the stacked shields....
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
145
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 12:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
I feel scout regen should be reduced and assault regen increased so they both reach a common middle ground, possibly with assault regen slightly higher. As a scout player I agree scouts need good regen so I'm not advocating a large nerf.
It's worth noting that fitting a dampener to your assault suit will even the EWAR odds between assault scouts and your assault suit.
Unless the scout is using precision mods (losing tank) or is Caldari. However, reducing scout shield regen is more a nerf to Caldari scouts than others so should be balanced.
I wouldn't reduce min scout regen as much as cal.
I don't agree that assaults should have damage or hp bonuses or more slots, regen changes should be sufficient. Small steps are best.
If people are worried that commandos are overshadowing assaults, remove the commando damage bonuses to rifles. Assaults should be the best with rifles, commandos should just get bonuses to special weapons, i.e. Sniper rifles, laser rifles, mass drivers, swarm launchers, plasma cannons and shotguns. Maybe give Amarr a plasma cannon bonus and Caldari a swarmlauncher bonus so they all get an AV bonus and an AI bonus. |
Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
625
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 15:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
The reason any scout brick tanks is because they have ridiculous regen capabilities. People who say scouts need this, well that's what modules are for. The base scout suit without modules should be about speed and eWar. The ability of current scout to regen faster than assaults means you can stack mostly HP modules and achieve similar HP as assaults who are trying to reach a reasonable regen. (while still having better eWar, speed, hitbox, 2 equipment, etc)
In my opinion the biggest offender of scouts out shining assaults is the Caldari scout. This suit can regen 450 HP in just over 14 seconds, without placing any regen modules. it would literally take my minmatar assault double the time to do the same thing.
+1 Gustavo. Regen should be the assault role.
SMG Specialist
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Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1953
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Posted - 2014.06.27 20:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Limiting scouts to sidearm only will simply homogenize every fitting into using Smg/ScramPistol, as tey're the only 2 generally viable sidearms.
I think, rather than arbitrarily removing customization, we should just make Assaults better at slaying.
Yes, a scout can still slay, but an Assaut is better for all but Geurilla(aka Hit n Run) tactics.
Best way to do this is to make scouts the super fast, sneaky class(they already are) and make Assaults take Scouts' regeneration capabilities(in terms of repping 3/s and various Shield Scout factors) in favor of using their mobility and stealth to stay out of harm's way.
A scout doesn't need a 3/4 second shield delay if he's actually scouting or assassinating, honestly even a 10 second delay wouldn't gimp true scouts.
However, baby steps, i do not wish to make scouts have 10/12 sefond delays, or anythin near.
Just make assault's regen better, then scouts will already fall into line.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
148
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 22:09:00 -
[32] - Quote
Please CCP, this is a far more elegant, simple and balanced solution than all the others I have seen. If it doesn't do enough you can further improve assaults.
Buffing regen mods was a great move (still undecided whether the regulator buff was enough but I only have level 1 so cant effectively test) but no ones going to equip shield regen if you get it free on a scout.
There are so many misconceptions about scouts on the forums, it would be a great shame if scouts were over nerfed or assaults over buffed just because people don't understand the suit. |
Lynn Beck
NoGameNoLife
1957
|
Posted - 2014.06.27 23:50:00 -
[33] - Quote
I'm a lv4 Minmatar Scout, while being a Lv5 Minmatar Commando, and a lv3 Minmatar Assault.
My assault is outshined by my scout in every way, but my scout is outshined completely by a Caldari Scout, alongside outclassing my Assault.
Assault currently can hit 560 shield with 25/s recharge, and 10 second Regular delay.
My scout hits 343 with 5/6 second delays.
A calscout can get 453, with 4/5 second delays(assuming 4 extenders only does 1 second extra, not mathing it.
If my Min Assault wants better regen, i can hit 478 with 35/s recharge, but that's still worse than a Calscout simply stacking extenders. Scouts are generally just better, and the loss in HP is negligible when you consider strafe speed and hitbox.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3912
|
Posted - 2014.06.28 01:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
Suggestion: As a gallente scout, assault, heavy, and logistics player, I believe that scouts should have their innate shield regeneration switched with that of the assaults. And that possibly lengthen the recharge delay of scout suits. (Generally the regeneration of health being so quick is the main issue I find with scout suits maybe add a delay to armor repair as well)
Why? Because I believe scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, if said shield changes are made it would deter scouts from attacking enemies in quick succession.
Ex: With the current hp regeneration a scout is able to Attack---->Cloak and hide for short amount of time-------Return attack again
I'm sorry but I'm confused.
First you state that scouts should have slow shield regen. But then you say scouts are about speed? Then you give an example of scouts executing speedy recovery, hit & run.
I've been a scout since Chromosome Post TQ and the banter coming at scouts was hit & run.
Now let me drop my philosophy.
Scouts in my opinion are about stealth and speed. How is this different from yours? It's not, you just interpreted completely differently. When I say speed I'm not talking movement. I'm talking about a broad subject. Gallente Scouts should be the fastest to repair armor to full, Caldari the fastest to regen shields, Minmatar the fastest to run, and the Amarr fastest to recover stamina. The theme amongst 3/4 suits is the ability to regen with the minmatar being the general speedy one. Scout defenses should lie in how stealthy they are, in how well they can detect others, in how fast they can run, and how fast they can regenerate. Scouts need to have the best regeneration stats because we are supposed to have the least HP.
I can't propose a solution to assaults but I can propose a solution to scouts. Scouts need to get bonuses to regenerative modules + kin cat and need to suffer a little heavier penalty on tank modules. For example a Caldari scout who stacks shields too high would have suffer heavier regen penalties than an assault. A galscout who stacks too much armor should feel the sting of losing X% of armor reps. Amarr scout kind of needs to tank so they should be able to and Minmatar is kind of lagging as well so.....
But in the end I have to disagree entirely. Assaults need to be a diverse suit capable of dabbling in tank and regen. Strictly tank should belong to the heavies and strictly regen should belong to the scouts while the assaults should not be penalized for taking one path or the other.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
92
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Posted - 2014.06.28 01:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Look Bojo, right now is not the time for semantics, if I have to be absolutely clear, I'll correct my statement. "I believe that scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, in terms of movement."
If the health of a scout is supposed to be very low, which theoretically it should be, it wouldn't need such a high regeneration rate because it would little have hp to restore and would still take a short time to regen, though slightly longer than it does now.
I understand your scout proposal would be very applicable, however CCP does things in a certain manner, a manner which your proposal would contradict. If a penalty were to be added to tanking modules all suits would be affected by it. In other words, the form in which CCP balances this game is that of all or nothing, no "one," suit is affected by a penalty of a specific module. Cloaks for instance, high cpu/pg suits are able to use them, however it is not practical to do so because they do not get the bonus, or the dampening benefit, that scouts do, however there is nothing hindering anyone from using said cloak on anything other than scouts. This theory is also applied to logistics-assaults, and scout logistic suits.
If any change to scout suit it would dishearten scouts to tank, however it would hinder not them in anyway to attempt to tank. As assaults need a buff in order to better the suit in the role of continuous attack, or as I believe an Assault should behave, I thought would be appropriate...
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Seymour KrelbornX
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
230
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Posted - 2014.06.28 02:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:I don't think regen on a scout should matter...
they should be dead in a few hits.
scouts should not have any shield or armor tank.... they are speed tankers (or should be).
a scout who is seen should be a dead scout. an unseen scout however should be a deadly scout...
I was against making cloaks less "cloaky" I think they should be invisible to all but scans. and I think they should move much quicker.
but a proto scout should die from a few shots from an std rifle, and 1/4 of a shotgun blast.
right now scouts do the assaults job better than the assault should be able to do it. The role of a scout is that of either speed or stealth or a combination of the two, and stamina for the Amarr, however regen is a big part of why scouts do a better job of being assaults. When scouts do an invisible attack, as in cloak, attack ,re-cloak, leave, they only take a few seconds to replenish their health and come back to attack the enemy. If you change the regen it will make assaults better at continuously "assaulting" the enemy, it will also deter scouts from doing the job of the assault because it will take longer for them to be in the condition to do so...
I'm not opposed to giving assaults better regen... my comment was more about scouts needing to either be quick or stealthed and dead when they fail at either... |
Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3913
|
Posted - 2014.06.28 03:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Look Bojo, right now is not the time for semantics, if I have to be absolutely clear, I'll correct my statement. "I believe that scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, in terms of movement."
If the health of a scout is supposed to be very low, which theoretically it should be, it wouldn't need such a high regeneration rate because it would little have hp to restore and would still take a short time to regen, though slightly longer than it does now.
I understand your scout proposal would be very applicable, however CCP does things in a certain manner, a manner which your proposal would contradict. If a penalty were to be added to tanking modules all suits would be affected by it. In other words, the form in which CCP balances this game is that of all or nothing, no "one," suit is affected by a penalty of a specific module. Cloaks for instance, high cpu/pg suits are able to use them, however it is not practical to do so because they do not get the bonus, or the dampening benefit, that scouts do, however there is nothing hindering anyone from using said cloak on anything other than scouts. This theory is also applied to logistics-assaults, and scout logistic suits.
If any change to scout suit it would dishearten scouts to tank, however it would hinder not them in anyway to attempt to tank. As assaults need a buff in order to better the suit in the role of continuous attack, or as I believe an Assault should behave, I thought would be appropriate...
Always time for semantics!
I think you are looking at this in a wrong angle. Scout tanking isn't as bad because of high regen stats. A shield tanked proto caldari scout can have hundreds of shield HP and be invisible.
It's not quite as bad that all this HP is hitting you at a fast speed other wise a Minmatar Medium should be just as well as a scout if the terms were so black & white. But the key variable to it all is the huge profile gap between a Minmatar Medium and a Scout. Minmatar Mediums are fairly close to scouts in stats except for eWar numbers.
The problem everyone's having is 600-700 HP mercs avoiding detection; try asking an Assault to hide from Tacnet with such high profile and tank at the same time. 600-700 HP being invisible on the radar. That's like asking to hide a wall.
Shields because they do not hinder mobility should hinder profile in my opinion.
Standard variation armor plates need to hinder light frame mobility heavier.
Bam. That way the true scouts who have been playing their role intended more or less are not punished by another braod swipe. You need to hit the heart of the problem we can't go around nerfing suits because then no one is happy. We have to address the key issue and that is the relationship between HP tank modules and scouts not regen tanking scouts.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
92
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Posted - 2014.06.28 03:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
Scout tanks work BECAUSE they can regenerate so quickly. In terms of E-war, I do believe that one of the medium frames should be able to counter the use of invisibility, however this is not the topic of my proposal. This addresses how to deter scout from tanking health by making it unattractive. What's more unattractive than knowing that if you tank your suit the health will take too long to come back after an engagement?
With the proposed change scout will have to choose between doing their role, or making an attempt at finding a good combination of regeneration and tank modules in order to survive a battle, and act as an assault.
As I said if a scout is doing their job they shouldn't need such a high regeneration rate in order to regain all their health...
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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I do SUCK
Hired Logi's
106
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Posted - 2014.06.28 04:29:00 -
[39] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits.
Solution:Inconclusive, there are many ways to remedy said situation. The main remedy that scouts are banking on is that assaults become buffed to a point that it would be impractical for a scout to act as an assault. (Or that assaults become buffed to a point so that assault users are happy enough to forget that scouts can still perform the same role.)
Suggestion: As a gallente scout, assault, heavy, and logistics player, I believe that scouts should have their innate shield regeneration switched with that of the assaults. And that possibly lengthen the recharge delay of scout suits. (Generally the regeneration of health being so quick is the main issue I find with scout suits maybe add a delay to armor repair as well)
Why? Because I believe scouts should play the role of stealth and speed, if said shield changes are made it would deter scouts from attacking enemies in quick succession.
Ex: With the current hp regeneration a scout is able to Attack---->Cloak and hide for short amount of time-------Return attack again
With proposed change scouts will be more along the lines of Attack----->Cloak and hide for enough time to replenish------>return and attack. Assaults will use the latter method and fulfill their role at "assaulting. "
Also with said changes Caldari Scouts will be less tempted to just stack shields because the recharge time would not allow them to do so effectively. Gallente Scouts will also be less likely to become a brick tank because of the time it will take considerably longer to get shield back and armor repairers will become more attractive to run . (I thinks there should be another penalty to regeneration with the gallente scout, but it might even out because their innate armor repair is only 3hp/s not sure though)
Issue with this: Amarr and Minmatar scout will be gimped even more now that their shields(especially minmatar scout) will not replenish at the higher rate. (probably leave the recharge rates the same with these two suits so they have a better role on the battlefield, but conflicts with the whole "Caldari have the best regeneration of all suits" )
Hopefully better ideas will be given in the replies to this post, rather than just rage about not fixing scouts.
If there is anything I missed please point it out for me...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eBPqksG9nbA
I trash talk
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I do SUCK
Hired Logi's
106
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Posted - 2014.06.28 04:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:My idea is to limit scout to 2 sidearms. Their job isn't to kill, its to scout and relay Intel. The sidearms allow it to defend itself long enough to break contact and escape. Now assaults deal more damage, and scouts can't play as slayers. I don't like the idea of a scout not being able to use a light weapon because two of the scout suits are already ridiculously gimped in terms of being a suit. It is also a very over-simplified way to deal with the issue...
What makes slayer suits is there ability to deal damage. Limiting them to 2 sidearms gives them plenty of options. The other 2 scout suits are gimped regardless of whether or not they can for light weapons or not, and need to be addressed separately.[/quote]
The issue i have is that it limits the capabilities of a scout to use speed and stealth attacks, as well as propagates the idea that scouts should not be killing at all...
also we should stop quoting i really messed that part up...[/quote]
Do u here yourself right now then y do us yes us SCOUTS can't "be stealthy" with a scrambler my god (face palms) retards in dust these days
I trash talk
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I do SUCK
Hired Logi's
106
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Posted - 2014.06.28 04:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
I do SUCK wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:My idea is to limit scout to 2 sidearms. Their job isn't to kill, its to scout and relay Intel. The sidearms allow it to defend itself long enough to break contact and escape. Now assaults deal more damage, and scouts can't play as slayers. I don't like the idea of a scout not being able to use a light weapon because two of the scout suits are already ridiculously gimped in terms of being a suit. It is also a very over-simplified way to deal with the issue... What makes slayer suits is there ability to deal damage. Limiting them to 2 sidearms gives them plenty of options. The other 2 scout suits are gimped regardless of whether or not they can for light weapons or not, and need to be addressed separately.
The issue i have is that it limits the capabilities of a scout to use speed and stealth attacks, as well as propagates the idea that scouts should not be killing at all...
also we should stop quoting i really messed that part up...[/quote]
Do u here yourself right now then y do us yes us SCOUTS can't "be stealthy" with a scrambler my god (face palms) retards in dust these days[/quote]
Snap failed quote lol
I trash talk
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
92
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Posted - 2014.06.28 04:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
I do SUCK, as a scout I sympathize with your unyielding desire to keep scouts in their current position in the game. However I find your lack of constructive criticism detrimental. If you're gonna trash talk please do so in a more coherent, and or, constructive manner.
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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I do SUCK
Hired Logi's
106
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Posted - 2014.06.28 05:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:I do SUCK, as a scout I sympathize with your unyielding desire to keep scouts in their current position in the game. However I find your lack of constructive criticism detrimental. If you're gonna trash talk please do so in a more coherent, and or, constructive manner.
Meh I'm not the best critic for god but I'll troll all day let's let bojo explain it he's a better explainer thingy p.S he's better then me
I trash talk
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
93
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Posted - 2014.06.28 05:03:00 -
[44] - Quote
I do SUCK wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:I do SUCK, as a scout I sympathize with your unyielding desire to keep scouts in their current position in the game. However I find your lack of constructive criticism detrimental. If you're gonna trash talk please do so in a more coherent, and or, constructive manner. Meh I'm not the best critic for god but I'll troll all day let's let bojo explain it he's a better explainer thingy p.S he's better then me
You could at least try...
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2488
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Posted - 2014.06.28 06:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits.
This is why (among other reasons) the Assault role needs to be defined by it's gank not it's tank. Give Assault suits a damage push that's native to the suit.
Nerfing scouts will no more make the Assault viable than nerfing Logi will make the assault viable. Even nerfting both will just mean that the heavy suits become the only worth while option.
Assault suits need both love and uniqueness, Without making them excel within a niche (LW dps output) they will remain in contention with too many other suits because of their current status as 'mid-range generalists'.
Revisiting balance after the assault suits get the touch ups they require will, in my view, be more effective than altering the scouts (or logis) before we know what changes will ultimately come to the assault suits.
Cheers,
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
93
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Posted - 2014.06.28 07:48:00 -
[46] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits. This is why (among other reasons) the Assault role needs to be defined by it's gank not it's tank. Give Assault suits a damage push that's native to the suit. Nerfing scouts will no more make the Assault viable than nerfing Logi will make the assault viable. Even nerfting both will just mean that the heavy suits become the only worth while option. Assault suits need both love and uniqueness, Without making them excel within a niche (LW dps output) they will remain in contention with too many other suits because of their current status as 'mid-range generalists'. Revisiting balance after the assault suits get the touch ups they require will, in my view, be more effective than altering the scouts (or logis) before we know what changes will ultimately come to the assault suits. Cheers, Cross
Unfortunately, if you had done more than just skim through this thread, you would have read my proposal that assaults should take the role of high regeneration rate and this would in fact help in their role of "continuous attack." This is would not be a nerf, it is re-balancing.
To suggest that Scouts are currently in a good spot for their would be an understatement, they are in fact excelling in all roles. Heavies only take the role of damage and hp tanking, I mean they do have regenerative but currently they equal the assault. Preventing Scouts from excelling at said assault role is also important, because it perpetuates balance.
Honestly I have not seen any good idea put together on how to stop scouts from doing the assault role beyond limiting the suit's capabilities to certain weapons, or certain amounts of hp. Though this is a simple way of prevention of said abuse it is unlikely to occur considering CCP's pattern of re-balancing the game. I understand candidates tend to say things in order to keep the majority happy, in this case scouts, however I do not approve of you brushing off my idea as a simple "Nurf da scout," thread, as this is how you answered.
I should know I'm a scout...
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3913
|
Posted - 2014.06.28 07:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Scout tanks work BECAUSE they can regenerate so quickly. In terms of E-war, I do believe that one of the medium frames should be able to counter the use of invisibility, however this is not the topic of my proposal. This addresses how to deter scout from tanking health by making it unattractive. What's more unattractive than knowing that if you tank your suit the health will take too long to come back after an engagement?
With the proposed change scout will have to choose between doing their role, or making an attempt at finding a good combination of regeneration and tank modules in order to survive a battle, and act as an assault.
As I said if a scout is doing their job they shouldn't need such a high regeneration rate in order to regain all their health...
You're not bridging the connection between low HP and fast recovery.
You can't make a light suit be the medium. Here is how things work:
Heavy - High HP - Slow Speeds - Heavy Weapons or 2 Light
Medium - Medium HP - Medium Speed - Most Slots
Light - Low HP - High Speeds - eWar
This is how things work because it's on a balance scale. Every suit has a frame weight pro, con, and specialty. Your suggestion would balance as so:
Medium - Medium HP - High Regen Speed/Medium Movement - Most Slots
Light - Low HP - Medium Regen/Fast Movement- Ewar
You end up with an imbalance. The notion of trying to suggest a method of dissuading scouts from tanking is noble however as you say you have many suits and you stand less to lose from such a suggestion. CCP has already castrated scouts by nerfing eWar instead of tanking. You want to further it and castrate our regen all in the name of nerfing tank?
If you want to nerf tank then nerf tank! Why must people suggest building a 70 mile road around the problem? Scouts should not be HP tanking so why nerf regen and eWar? If you take away regen and eWar what else is left to do but tank?
Also to end on a note of lemon zest I would agree with Cross as a good direction for the Assault to take.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
93
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Posted - 2014.06.28 08:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Scout tanks work BECAUSE they can regenerate so quickly. In terms of E-war, I do believe that one of the medium frames should be able to counter the use of invisibility, however this is not the topic of my proposal. This addresses how to deter scout from tanking health by making it unattractive. What's more unattractive than knowing that if you tank your suit the health will take too long to come back after an engagement?
With the proposed change scout will have to choose between doing their role, or making an attempt at finding a good combination of regeneration and tank modules in order to survive a battle, and act as an assault.
As I said if a scout is doing their job they shouldn't need such a high regeneration rate in order to regain all their health... You're not bridging the connection between low HP and fast recovery. You can't make a light suit be the medium. Here is how things work: Heavy - High HP - Slow Speeds - Heavy Weapons or 2 Light Medium - Medium HP - Medium Speed - Most Slots Light - Low HP - High Speeds - eWar This is how things work because it's on a balance scale. Every suit has a frame weight pro, con, and specialty. Your suggestion would balance as so: Medium - Medium HP - High Regen Speed/Medium Movement - Most Slots Light - Low HP - Medium Regen/Fast Movement- Ewar You end up with an imbalance. The notion of trying to suggest a method of dissuading scouts from tanking is noble however as you say you have many suits and you stand less to lose from such a suggestion. CCP has already castrated scouts by nerfing eWar instead of tanking. You want to further it and castrate our regen all in the name of nerfing tank? If you want to nerf tank then nerf tank! Why must people suggest building a 70 mile road around the problem? Scouts should not be HP tanking so why nerf regen and eWar? If you take away regen and eWar what else is left to do but tank? Also to end on a note of lemon zest I would agree with Cross as a good direction for the Assault to take.
The issue with your balance scale is that it entails that Scouts are able to do everything fast, however this in turn causes imbalance. Because Scouts can do everything fast, and tank, the assault suit loses its role. Just because something makes sense when you write it out doesn't make it right.
Any direct nerf tank modules would affect all suits and in no way give scouts any form of advantage, other than lowering TTK so that this game becomes more like COD. Also, the E-War changes were also necessary because no suit should be completely invisible to every form of E-War, this includes scanners. Unless you want to do the cloak method of making armor and shield modules 300 cpu/ 39pg with assaults getting the bonus allowing them to tank, but then this leaves out logis, medium frames, and heavies, so I doubt it.
This game has always been about being able to innovate the inventory to your playstyle, this means suits outside of their intended role should be able to function, however, to allow a suit to excel outside of their intended role and surpass the suit meant for it, was always discouraged.
If you're a scout and you want to tank, be my guest tank, but as I've said it should have never been able to take over the assault's role.
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
93
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Posted - 2014.06.28 08:24:00 -
[49] - Quote
Also, Bojo, when you think about it, a real scout with say 15 h/s is still techinically fast regn...
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2495
|
Posted - 2014.06.28 16:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Cross Atu wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits. This is why (among other reasons) the Assault role needs to be defined by it's gank not it's tank. Give Assault suits a damage push that's native to the suit. Nerfing scouts will no more make the Assault viable than nerfing Logi will make the assault viable. Even nerfting both will just mean that the heavy suits become the only worth while option. Assault suits need both love and uniqueness, Without making them excel within a niche (LW dps output) they will remain in contention with too many other suits because of their current status as 'mid-range generalists'. Revisiting balance after the assault suits get the touch ups they require will, in my view, be more effective than altering the scouts (or logis) before we know what changes will ultimately come to the assault suits. Cheers, Cross Unfortunately, if you had done more than just skim through this thread, you would have read my proposal that assaults should take the role of high regeneration rate and this would in fact help in their role of "continuous attack." This is would not be a nerf, it is re-balancing.
I honestly have not read the whole thread, I read the OP, quoted it and responded to it.
That being said I deeply disagree with the premise that the niche of the assault should be a high eHP one, regeneration based or otherwise. Assault eHP should be mid range, for more details on this premise check out the thread by Fox Gaden.
gustavo acosta wrote:To suggest that Scouts are currently in a good spot for their would be an understatement, they are in fact excelling in all roles. Heavies only take the role of damage and hp tanking, I mean they do have regenerative but currently they equal the assault. Preventing Scouts from excelling at said assault role is also important, because it perpetuates balance.
Honestly I have not seen any good idea put together on how to stop scouts from doing the assault role beyond limiting the suit's capabilities to certain weapons, or certain amounts of hp. Though this is a simple way of prevention of said abuse it is unlikely to occur considering CCP's pattern of re-balancing the game. I understand candidates tend to say things in order to keep the majority happy, in this case scouts, however I do not approve of you brushing off my idea as a simple "Nurf da scout," thread, as this is how you answered.
I should know I'm a scout...
I brushed nothing off nor am I attempting to pander in any way, you may check my posting history all the back to closed beta if you would like, the point I made - which quite frankly you have not directly addressed - is that both of the medium frames will need balancing regardless. That being the case further changes to the scout (or the heavy honestly) prior to the first polish pass on both the Logi and the Assault is in fact bad practice; to wit, what is balanced now will not be balanced then, and what is balanced then will not be known until we have more information about what "then" is actually comprised of.
There is no amount of scout (or heavy) nerfing that will give the assault a proper niche or role in its current state. Yes nerfing other suits could make the assault more prominent but one suit being the most prominent (regardless of what suit that is) does not indicate high quality balance, in fact it definitively indicates a lack of balance parity unless each niche/role has been defined meaningfully as an incomparable. Right now in Dust that is unfortunately not the case, we have for the most part one niche/role which composes most of the actual game play, the role of "slayer".
No suit can be the best slayer as long as slayer is the best role, otherwise we're just creating something new for the FotM crowd to chase (something I'm deeply opposed to, again feel free to check my posting history all the way back to closed beta, I'm am not a fan of FotM).
If you'd care to discuss the concepts herein directly I remain, as usual, completely open to that 
Let us, however, be clear; at no time did I suggest "scouts are in a good place" as a blanket catch all stance.
Such a stance is far too simplistic to be accurate, for one thing the scout racial types are not equivalent and should not be painted with the same brush (much like happened during the logi witch hunt days of the broken CalLogi Extender bonus).
The Minja and Amarr both need a more functional level of role definition/performance, just like essentially all 8 racial medium frames do.
In fact I think changes to the scout line are most certainly called for (look here) but they require other changes first.
Continued in part 2
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2495
|
Posted - 2014.06.28 16:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
part 2
Cross Atu wrote:EDIT: Point of clarity; My responses are made in light of the impending balance pass to Assaults and Logistics.
My assumed results of those passes in summery are as follows;
- Normalization, or near normalization of medium frame high and low slots by meta level and race
- Normalization, or near normalization of medium frame native attributes by meta and race.
- Addition of proper LW fittings and damage bonuses (by race) to the Assault frame
- Enhancement of the Logi bonus to equipment fittings
- Addition of the requirement for Logi suits to fill all equipment slots to make a valid fitting
With these changes, which are already needed in the current game state, in place the proposed changes to scouts seem to have no clearly problematic role/balance implications.
This is an general/simple example of what could serve as a first pass on the medium racial frames. With this done we can then let some testing and data collection happen on the live servers. After that we can assess the state of each racial heavy, scout, and medium to make the further adjustments which will almost certainly be necessary.
But until then we won't really know what those adjustments are. Not acknowledging that effect, the implications of connected changes, has been a glaring shortfall in CCPs balance method up until CCP Rattati took point.
I very much do not want to see balance methodology backslide into its prior, deeply flawed, form.
Hence, by extension, I am opposed to this proposal at this time (and even if it weren't at this time I'd likely still find the idea of seeking assault suit balance by focusing on making them higher eHP a dubious method from a conceptual standpoint I think it violates their niche making them overlap with everything else too much for a medium dps frame).
0.02 ISK
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
95
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Posted - 2014.06.28 17:26:00 -
[52] - Quote
I never suggested that assaults should have high eHP, I suggested that the mid-range of the assault's eHP should regenerate quicker because it will outline their role. As I have stated this is not a nerf this is a change. Nerf=something is OP make it weaker, buff=something is UP make it better, change=there is an inconsistency in the game that needs addressing. The inconsistency in scouts is that they are apparently "not supposed to be able to tank effectively" however their innate regeneration rewards them to do so. If assaults, and probably medium frames considering they share identical stats, were able to do this they could fulfill their role on the battlefield.
This is only one idea, but I have yet to see any other more applicable ideas that would work for the manner in which CCP balances this game. This includes the whole "force logi to fill equipment," which I am against because it limits innovation of the logi suit. I believe that the role of suits should be made obvious, however I do not believe we should baby the players of this game by forcing them to run their suit in a way that coincides with their role rather than their choice. That being said if a player does attempt to do a role outside of intended the attempt should not out-perform the suit to which said role is intended.
I also never suggested this should be the only change made to the scout suit it is only the inconsistency that I had noticed one day when trying to tank scout, well succeeding. If scouts are supposed to have low Hp then why does their regeneration rate have to be so high? But back to assault, I believe assault suits should get better bonuses that would define their role deeper, however this thread is not for that. This thread is a suggestion for said adjustments, and would in fact give the assault a niche for use, though said niche has not even been defined by you. I have also acknowledged in this thread that the Amarr and Minmatar scouts' role would have to be more defined, or subjected to different less drastic changes, in order for said change to work. (Cross Atu,no offense but you still seem fairly ignorant when it comes to what I am actually proposing, and yoursolutionsseemlikeobviousthingsandreallyprovidenothingconcrete)
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3914
|
Posted - 2014.06.28 18:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
I can't make you see your folly you are hell bent that the role of the Assaults is to regen. However I am not threatened by your suggestion because it will never come true. Just like 99/100 of all suggestions.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
95
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Posted - 2014.06.28 18:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I can't make you see your folly you are hell bent that the role of the Assaults is to regen. However I am not threatened by your suggestion because it will never come true. Just like 99/100 of all suggestions.
You have not provided good enough evidence other than some chart you made up based on the word "fast"...
Also it seems that you have no better idea on how to improve assault/medium suits, honestly I'm fine if said changes don't occur, all I can do is hope that CCP does SOMETHING, but if they don't oh well I still have my assault, scout, logi and sentinal to have fun with, I could care less...
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
636
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Posted - 2014.06.28 19:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I can't make you see your folly you are hell bent that the role of the Assaults is to regen. However I am not threatened by your suggestion because it will never come true. Just like 99/100 of all suggestions.
Dude, its not just him that is suggesting this. A great number of players are suggesting that regen should be the assault role.
It does not make sense for scouts to have higher base regen;
1. They are supposed to have lower eHP meaning that ridiculously high regen is not needed. (changing to assault level would not gimp them, just force them to give thought to regen modules and prevent tanking)
2. They are not supposed to engage openly against enemies, meaning they shouldnt be taking much damage and do not need high regen.
3. Every other class is forced to fit expensive regen modules to even get close to scouts base regen.
4. They have superior eWar which allows them to avoid contact while they regen.
5. They have superior speed which allows them to escape and regen.
There are 6 primary attributes in dust infantry.
eHP, Regen, Speed, eWar, damage, equipment
Why should the scout get regen, speed, eWar while having similar eHP and damage?
Solution, give regen to the assaults.
Everyone knows you like your crutch, its cool.
SMG Specialist
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2500
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Posted - 2014.06.28 20:08:00 -
[56] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:I never suggested that assaults should have high eHP, I suggested that the mid-range of the assault's eHP should regenerate quicker because it will outline their role. As I have stated this is not a nerf this is a change. Nerf=something is OP make it weaker, buff=something is UP make it better, change=there is an inconsistency in the game that needs addressing. The inconsistency in scouts is that they are apparently "not supposed to be able to tank effectively" however their innate regeneration rewards them to do so. If assaults, and probably medium frames considering they share identical stats, were able to do this they could fulfill their role on the battlefield.
As stated in my prior post I don't conceptually support the method of raising Assault eHP as a way to define/improve their role at this time. As per this thread I think there are other aspects which should be touched on prior to any look at altering the eHP of the Assault line.
gustavo acosta wrote:This is only one idea, but I have yet to see any other more applicable ideas that would work for the manner in which CCP balances this game. This includes the whole "force logi to fill equipment," which I am against because it limits innovation of the logi suit. I believe that the role of suits should be made obvious, however I do not believe we should baby the players of this game by forcing them to run their suit in a way that coincides with their role rather than their choice. That being said if a player does attempt to do a role outside of intended the attempt should not out-perform the suit to which said role is intended. See the above linked thread for not only more applicable ideas but the reasons why they are more applicable even if some aspects of them are functionally less than ideal.
gustavo acosta wrote:I also never suggested this should be the only change made to the scout suit it is only the inconsistency that I had noticed one day when trying to tank scout, well succeeding. If scouts are supposed to have low Hp then why does their regeneration rate have to be so high? But back to assault, I believe assault suits should get better bonuses that would define their role deeper, however this thread is not for that. This thread is a suggestion for said adjustments, and would in fact give the assault a niche for use, though said niche has not even been defined by you. I have also acknowledged in this thread that the Amarr and Minmatar scouts' role would have to be more defined, or subjected to different less drastic changes, in order for said change to work. (Cross Atu,no offense but you still seem fairly ignorant when it comes to what I am actually proposing, and yoursolutionsseemlikeobviousthingsandreallyprovidenothingconcrete)
I did not mean to imply that you were stating this was a stand alone or magic bullet fix. If such implication was given by my posts please allow me to clarify that now. I do not at this time, nor any prior time, mean to imply that you were stating the OP was the only fix needed.
Having cleared that up allow me to reiterate, I do not believe altering Assault eHP balance should be the first step to improving the class. They are the Light Weapon masters and should, within their racial specificity, be able to get the highest optimum use out of their related Light Weapons. Giving the Assault role a focus on 'gank' rather than 'tank' and aspecting that role within racial tones creates a role wide balance philosophy while maintaining internal racial diversity.
Further it is important to define terms;
- HP - Hit Points, Brick Tank, Buffer Tank; this is the raw total suit life.
- eHP - Effective Hit Points; this is more complex and comprises nuanced things such as visibility, speed, damage reduction, repair rate, et al.
Scouts should indeed be low HP, but that does not mean they have to be the lowest on each aspect of eHP.
Assaults should be mid range on eHP, but that does not mean they must be 100% middle of the road on HP (indeed at present they have better native HP than both Scouts and Logi).
All of that debate is beside the point however, at least when it comes to what statements I am making so I will reiterate the fundamental to be certain I am making stance clear (because there seems to, perhaps, be some confusion here).
TL;DR - Do not change the HP or eHP of Assaults in any way until after their gank (i.e. optimal damage output and potential) has been given the overhaul which (in my understanding) it so desperately needs.
The Assault role should be an attacking one, and it's niche benefits should aid in bringing the pain, not surviving the pain. Revisit the situation visa vie Assault/Scout eHP after we've seen the effects of assault damage buffs.
0.02 ISK
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
97
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Posted - 2014.06.28 20:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
Thanks for clarifying Cross Atu, though I do not agree that assaults should be focused on damage output, because of the TTK issue it might bring I understand where you're coming from. I would also make it a point to remind that the assault suit is not the best in any form of eHP, because it is the second most visible, weakest (because lolscouttank), has no damage reduction. Also, I believe if scouts are able to perform the role of invisibility, and speed, and heavies HP tank, and devastating attacks, logistics medic, and intel(which needs to be somwhat buffed I believe but that's a different topic). The assault should play a role beyond just 25% more damage "IF" you use your racial weapon, in this case durability/regeneration.(assumption made from past changes to the game)
I believe that medium frames in general should be the second best in terms of durability, heavies being first, because they are unable to do their respective roles without durabilty(i.e. attack and logistics) , buffing their regeneration rate alone would help a great deal. I added that scouts should also be affected by this change because currently they are abusing the ability to regen their health quickly by tanking suits.
Unless the damage output given to assaults is monstrous, then scouts will still be rewarded more for running assaults than the actual assault suit for doing so.
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2500
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Posted - 2014.06.28 21:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Thanks for clarifying Cross Atu, though I do not agree that assaults should be focused on damage output, because of the TTK issue it might bring I understand where you're coming from. I would also make it a point to remind that the assault suit is not the best in any form of eHP, because it is the second most visible, weakest (because lolscouttank), has no damage reduction. Also, I believe if scouts are able to perform the role of invisibility, and speed, and heavies HP tank, and devastating attacks, logistics medic, and intel(which needs to be somwhat buffed I believe but that's a different topic). The assault should play a role beyond just 25% more damage "IF" you use your racial weapon, in this case durability/regeneration.(assumption made from past changes to the game)
It seems we differ conceptually somewhat here, but that's legitimate and I'm totally open to discussing the various pros and cons of differing conceptual stances. That's the best way, in my experience, to hone in on quality balance.
I'm not going to dispute your concerns regarding TTK, in fact I'm of the school at present that leans towards TTK game wide getting something of an increase. Honestly this is part of why I want the Assault to gain a damage bonus first, so that game wide balance could be scaled with such a bonus in mind rather than polished and then re-broken.
gustavo acosta wrote:I believe that medium frames in general should be the second best in terms of durability, heavies being first, because they are unable to do their respective roles without durabilty(i.e. attack and logistics) , buffing their regeneration rate alone would help a great deal. I added that scouts should also be affected by this change because currently they are abusing the ability to regen their health quickly by tanking suits.
I tend to agree regarding the place of medium frames on the durability spectrum. Upon reflection I should likely elaborate a bit more on one key point. When I say give the assaults their gank bonuses first, that is very much what I mean.
I am not dismissive of the idea that further changes with regards to eHP may be called for before we find high quality balance, however since I do believe the assaults require a means of making themselves the Light Weapon specialists and that over all role power will have to include both gank and tank, I'm firmly in favor of doing the damage buffs upfront and then assessing the situation. What and how much change will or will not be required for the assault et al at that stage will be something I don't see how we can answer until the other changes go through. So while I am saying that I don't think we should touch this now, I am not saying "no never, this way is perfect".
gustavo acosta wrote:Unless the damage output given to assaults is monstrous, then scouts will still be rewarded more for running assaults than the actual assault suit for doing so.
There's a scout related proposal which also has some possible bearing on this question, the quick upshot is that it moves passive buffs into being model buffs such that for scouts to use their main role niche they cannot be stacking all their high/lows with tank.
Looking forward to the continuing conversation.
Cheers,
Cross
P.S. ~ Held this till the post script to avoid pulling the thread too far off topic, but I agree with you generally speaking that having forced fittings is very bad policy. Sadly it's the only way I've seen thus far to give the support logi the wiggle room it needs to actually become viable. At present a "slayer" logi can out do an assault while at the same time that very same racial logi suit spec'ed for support is sluggish squishy and even more expensive (both SP and ISK) than the assault suits it's going to consistently lose against. I don't like required fittings, but something needs to be done so that the support logi can be buffed properly to have a chance at ISK viability and proper SP risk vs reward scaling without at the same time turning it into a better slayer suit than the assault.
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
151
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Posted - 2014.06.28 23:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
The things is, I fundamentally disagree with increasing assault suit damage. The TTK benchmark should be set by assaults.
That is what is so clever about the current assault suit bonuses, they increase the effectiveness of the rifles without directly increasing damage. Giving assault suits a base damage increase seems to me a very ugly and messy way of improving them. Too many bonuses feel like a patchwork of fixes rather than a coherent set of suit perks.
The key to buffing assaults is in their base stats, there isn't room to change things with bonuses or slots without opening a can of worms and making a mess.
Surely it would be wise to buff assault regen to near scout levels first (maybe with a minor scout regen nerf as well ), to address the clear problem with regen mods (i.e. why fit them on assaults when they are free with scouts?) and see how it goes before jumping straight in with massive overhauls and potentially throwing things way out of balance again.
Hasn't everyone been saying over and over again, to achieve balance, small steps at a time are best? |
The-Errorist
SVER True Blood
773
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Posted - 2014.06.29 16:55:00 -
[60] - Quote
There are a few good solutions out there, but these are the ones I believe are the best ones:
Make assaults have a total of 8 high & low slots at proto and standardize slot layouts for races:
Caldari - Most high slots.
Minmatar - 1 more high slot than low for odd number of slots and equal high & lows when theirs an even total number slots.
Gallente - More low slots than high.
Amarr - Most number of low slots.
More details in KAGEHOSHI's thread on [Feedbk/Req] (Spreadsheet inside) medium suit slot changes.
Give non-specialized suits a purpose, ([Feedback/Request] Basic frames & specializations: differentation & cost)
Differentiating the Assault and Commando specializations by Aero Yassavi and KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Assault Class: 2% increased damage to light weapons and sidearms per level
Amarr Assault: 5% decreased heat build up to laser weaponry per level
Caldari Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - rail weaponry per level
Gallente Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - blaster weaponry per level
Minmatar Assault: 5% increased magazine size to projectile weaponry per level
Commando Class: 20% increased ammo capacity of light weapons and sidearms per level
Amarr Commando: 5% increased reload speed of laser weaponry per level
Caldari Commando: 5% increased reload speed of hybrid - rail weaponry per level
Gallente Commando: 5% increased reload speed of hybrid - blaster weaponry per level
Minmatar Commando: 5% increased reload speed of projectile and explosive weaponry per level
For more info, check the thread linked above.
And lastly, standardize recharge rates, delays, and repair rates for the races:
Caldari - Higher shield HP and recharge.
Shield recharge rate: 30 HP/s
Armor repair rate: 0 HP/s
Shield recharge delay: 5s
Shield recharge delay: 6s
Minmatar - Lower shield HP and better shield recharge delays.
Shield recharge rate: 25 HP/s
Armor repair rate: 0 HP/s
Shield recharge delay: 4s
Shield recharge delay: 5s
Gallente - Lower armor HP and decent base armor repair.
Shield recharge rate: 20 HP/s
Armor repair rate: 2 HP/s
Shield recharge delay: 7s
Shield recharge delay: 10s
Amarr - High armor HP.
Shield recharge rate: 20 HP/s
Armor repair rate: 0 HP/s
Shield recharge delay: 7s
Shield recharge delay: 10s
I don't like how right now heavies get lower recharge rates and delays (exception of Cal HVY) while lights get better recharge/repair rates and delays. Lights don't need to have better regen rates because they have lower HP, they'll repair/regen faster than heavier frames. Also, giving a suit with more HP, a lower recharge rate and delay doesn't make sense, since they'll take more time to fully recover anyway, if they had the same rates & delays.
MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2518
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Posted - 2014.07.01 15:43:00 -
[61] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:The things is, I fundamentally disagree with increasing assault suit damage. The TTK benchmark should be set by assaults. I agree with this stance generally speaking and have outlined above both why I agree and what this is an important motive to give Assaults a "gank" bonus as part of their role, and do so prior to making other changes to the line.
Varoth Drac wrote:That is what is so clever about the current assault suit bonuses, they increase the effectiveness of the rifles without directly increasing damage. Giving assault suits a base damage increase seems to me a very ugly and messy way of improving them. Too many bonuses feel like a patchwork of fixes rather than a coherent set of suit perks.
Things like the racially valuable Amarr Assault bonus are great for flavor and honestly if the other suits could be a little more deeply in that vein I'd really support that.
The above having been said it seems unlikely that the current bonuses, even with a touch up, are enough on their own.
If they were we'd see the Assault line performing much more effectively on the field and we'd see far more Amarr Assaults deployed (due to their more specific bonus).
Seemingly the facts point to there being a need for further Assault love beyond where we are at present, hence this thread
I conceptually disagree with the notion that giving the Assault Dropsuit a role defined by optimized damage potential is either ugly or messy. Their niche is assaulting, and clearly their role is not tank based as that's covered by the Heavy frames (both Sent and Manndo). They are also clearly Light Weapon specialists, and CCP has stated they won't be getting the 2x LW the Commando has. This leaves us with bringing up their potential optimum dps with (at least their racial) LWs. How we go about doing this can be discussed further of course (and whether or not the medium frame line as a whole needs a more confirmed survivability base line, which it likely does), but I honestly see little room in the current inter-frame balance of Dust to define the assault role niche without use of damage optimizing skill buffs. (After all even the current buffs are there to optimize damage, regardless of how well they're doing that).
Varoth Drac wrote:The key to buffing assaults is in their base stats, there isn't room to change things with bonuses or slots without opening a can of worms and making a mess.
Simply alter the base stats on the assault suits directly opens a can of worms and makes quite a mess, especially when it comes to altering their eHP in the present state of the game.
A few highlights of that, Scouts need internal balance polish, roughly half of them aren't really viable for high level play.
Support logistics need major love, when looking at ISK and risk vs reward scaling their rarely viable outside the hands of a few seasoned vets and they certainly offer a vanishingly small window for new players to enter the role, main the role, and do so while not running at a loss (esp for long enough to grind the millions of SP needed to run effective gear, or the proto suits required to make some gear worth running in a competitive context).
To make matters worse, at present the "slayer logi" can still run a better slayer build than the assault most of the time, but the support logi is currently in fittings which will usually perish vs an equivalent assault.
Buffing the assault base stats such as regen, prior to addressing other issues, creates a bigger mess to clean up with regards to medium frame balance, as well as racial scout balance.
Something not derived from the base stats needs to be looked into as a method of closing the power gap prior to altering base stats (and any alteration of base stats cannot happen to the Assault alone, the entire medium frame line needs to be looked at because the entire line is weak at it's role right now).
Varoth Drac wrote:Surely it would be wise to buff assault regen to near scout levels first (maybe with a minor scout regen nerf as well ), to address the clear problem with regen mods (i.e. why fit them on assaults when they are free with scouts?) and see how it goes before jumping straight in with massive overhauls and potentially throwing things way out of balance again.
As I have outlined above, it is specifically conceptually unwise to buff assault regen in the current state of things.
As was highlighted in my conversation with gustavo acosta it is an idea which could do with a look once other steps are taken but for many reasons isn't optimal as a first wave solution to the current situation.
Using eHP as the vanguard method for bringing the assault role into it's proper place creates a deeper imbalance within the medium frame line, forces the assault and commando roles to overlap even more than they already do, muddies the waters of the already imperfect internal balance of scouts and even (albeit slightly) brings the assault closer to playing the type of breaching and defense roles as the Sent (and in a somewhat similar manner with the assault dropping back from the fight to regen, while the heavy would be dropping back to reload).
As I've been detailing above and in my prior posts there are specific reasons why altering assault eHP balance at this stage, prior to addressing other aspects in need of a rework, would have the potential to feed imbalance. It's worth looking at again later, but it's the wrong solution currently, there's simply too much indirect harm it could do.
Varoth Drac wrote:Hasn't everyone been saying over and over again, to achieve balance, small steps at a time are best?
Yes, small steps are the best method, however that being said not all steps are equal and not all easy changes are conceptually small steps when it comes to balance.
0.02 ISK
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Ralden Caster
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
62
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Posted - 2014.07.03 18:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kinda random, but give the assault a buff to weapon range.
Team Fortress 2
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wiseguy12
Ancient Legion
32
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Posted - 2014.07.03 18:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
Simply take away the scouts ability to stack armor and shield modules. The problem is that scouts can stack good guns, armor modules, and shield at the same time. I my scout has all scout modules, (profile dampener, precision enhancer, and complex shield extender), a cheap magsec and uplinks and a cloak. Reduce CPU and PG to prevent strong guns on strong suits force the player to pick between those. Good equipment or Good modules or Good guns.
W.I.D.O.S. when in doubt orbital strike
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