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True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10895	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:17:00 - [61] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I had the exact opposite Dom experience yesterday, anecdotal of course, but still. Broke through a 4 tank line, turned the tables completely, claimed the point, lost it, won it again and held on. This is why I love this game like no other, every action I took meant something, from switching to dedicated AV in the beginning, to establishing a footholdhold with armor hives and uplinks, to breaching with my Duvolle AR and finally to stand and defend in a Sentinel. You must have a lot of SP. A logi suit with hives and uplinks A heavy sentinel suit, a duvolle I would be happy to have a heavy suit and an advanced forge, I guess in a few months I can at least do one roll you have. Seems legit unless you have millions of sp invested you can't do much in the game except die. OK I get it now. Hmm maybe this game is not for me after all. I will keep trying but if the sentiment from the dev team is get good on 2.5 million SP I just don't know what to say to that. He's a Dust Dev. He haz all teh Dev Hax " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 90	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:25:00 - [62] - Quote The one thing I do not understand about this community is that a good majority assume that vehicle users have either no gun play, or are simply bad at FPS games. I wonder if people ever considered the thought that some (or most) vehicle users were once mainly infantry in terms of playstyle, and decided to swtich it up a bit to keep things fresh. I also do not understand why people assume that AV is still a complete joke. I do just fine with any ADV tier forge gun, and have no real reason to pull out proto varients... I do not mean to be rude, but I wonder how much effort people actually bother to put into destroying vehicles. It's not meant to be strenuously difficult, but not especially easy either. There are still issues regarding swarm launchers and dropship resistances, which are unintended, but surely isn't the end of the world and needlessly needs to be complained about. I'm a scout, sentinel, commando, part time logi, and Incubus pilot. I tend to favor well and usually place in the top 6, usually amongst other squad members and close friends, who also endeavor in both vehicles and infantry, and are exceptional in both departments.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10896	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:29:00 - [63] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: The one thing I do not understand about this community is that a good majority assume that vehicle users have either no gun play, or are simply bad at FPS games. I wonder if people ever considered the thought that some (or most) vehicle users were once mainly infantry in terms of playstyle, and decided to swtich it up a bit to keep things fresh. I also do not understand why people assume that AV is still a complete joke. I do just fine with any ADV tier forge gun, and have no real reason to pull out proto varients... I do not mean to be rude, but I wonder how much effort people actually bother to put into destroying vehicles. It's not meant to be strenuously difficult, but not especially easy either. There are still issues regarding swarm launchers and dropship resistances, which are unintended, but surely isn't the end of the world and needlessly needs to be complained about. I'm a scout, sentinel, commando, part time logi, and Incubus pilot. I tend to favor well and usually place in the top 6, usually amongst other squad members and close friends, who also endeavor in both vehicles and infantry, and are exceptional in both departments. Started Dust as a Logi, then went Assault, then went into HAV, during the time between 1.3 and 1.8 I had more SP in Dropsuit Command than HAV Command, Picked up the Commando a couple of builds ago, now I main Commando and Assault. I'm still better in my HAV, but on foot I'm still reasonably decent with a Scrambler Rifle, only thing I can't do it fly a dropship to save my life. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
DEAD-EYE-KILLER Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 8	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:32:00 - [64] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: The one thing I do not understand about this community is that a good majority assume that vehicle users have either no gun play, or are simply bad at FPS games. I wonder if people ever considered the thought that some (or most) vehicle users were once mainly infantry in terms of playstyle, and decided to swtich it up a bit to keep things fresh. I also do not understand why people assume that AV is still a complete joke. I do just fine with any ADV tier forge gun, and have no real reason to pull out proto varients... I do not mean to be rude, but I wonder how much effort people actually bother to put into destroying vehicles. It's not meant to be strenuously difficult, but not especially easy either. There are still issues regarding swarm launchers and dropship resistances, which are unintended, but surely isn't the end of the world and needlessly needs to be complained about. I'm a scout, sentinel, commando, part time logi, and Incubus pilot. I tend to favor well and usually place in the top 6, usually amongst other squad members and close friends, who also endeavor in both vehicles and infantry, and are exceptional in both departments. Started Dust as a Logi, then went Assault, then went into HAV, during the time between 1.3 and 1.8 I had more SP in Dropsuit Command than HAV Command, Picked up the Commando a couple of builds ago, now I main Commando and Assault. I'm still better in my HAV, but on foot I'm still reasonably decent with a Scrambler Rifle, only thing I can't do it fly a dropship to save my life. First world problems
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10896	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:35:00 - [65] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: True Adamance wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: The one thing I do not understand about this community is that a good majority assume that vehicle users have either no gun play, or are simply bad at FPS games. I wonder if people ever considered the thought that some (or most) vehicle users were once mainly infantry in terms of playstyle, and decided to swtich it up a bit to keep things fresh. I also do not understand why people assume that AV is still a complete joke. I do just fine with any ADV tier forge gun, and have no real reason to pull out proto varients... I do not mean to be rude, but I wonder how much effort people actually bother to put into destroying vehicles. It's not meant to be strenuously difficult, but not especially easy either. There are still issues regarding swarm launchers and dropship resistances, which are unintended, but surely isn't the end of the world and needlessly needs to be complained about. I'm a scout, sentinel, commando, part time logi, and Incubus pilot. I tend to favor well and usually place in the top 6, usually amongst other squad members and close friends, who also endeavor in both vehicles and infantry, and are exceptional in both departments. Started Dust as a Logi, then went Assault, then went into HAV, during the time between 1.3 and 1.8 I had more SP in Dropsuit Command than HAV Command, Picked up the Commando a couple of builds ago, now I main Commando and Assault. I'm still better in my HAV, but on foot I'm still reasonably decent with a Scrambler Rifle, only thing I can't do it fly a dropship to save my life. First world problems Yeah man I can only dream of those second world problems........ " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
SLENDER M4N Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 38	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:37:00 - [66] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: SLENDER M4N wrote: I remember when my ass was given to me back in beta. Suryas and sagaris were fine. Seriously though, if they were implemented now then they'd only survive 1 or two extra hits. Nothing op there lol. Tanks to me were not a problem it was the fact that i would go 0/15,but i never quit playing because i was a noob. I never complained about anything being OP and thats how its always gonna go for me. Thats why diversity wins the game. To jump higher in any game,just press the button harder.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1895	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:44:00 - [67] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: The one thing I do not understand about this community is that a good majority assume that vehicle users have either no gun play, or are simply bad at FPS games. I wonder if people ever considered the thought that some (or most) vehicle users were once mainly infantry in terms of playstyle, and decided to swtich it up a bit to keep things fresh. I also do not understand why people assume that AV is still a complete joke. I do just fine with any ADV tier forge gun, and have no real reason to pull out proto varients... I do not mean to be rude, but I wonder how much effort people actually bother to put into destroying vehicles. It's not meant to be strenuously difficult, but not especially easy either. There are still issues regarding swarm launchers and dropship resistances, which are unintended, but surely isn't the end of the world and needlessly needs to be complained about. I'm a scout, sentinel, commando, part time logi, and Incubus pilot. I tend to favor well and usually place in the top 6, usually amongst other squad members and close friends, who also endeavor in both vehicles and infantry, and are exceptional in both departments. I came into Dust with several years of CoD and about a year of BF3 under my belt. When I first played Dust in closed beta, I only ran on foot for quite some time, as I didn't know much about the game. My first experience with tanking was around the time when missiles were incredibly powerful and were nerfed straight into the ground with near complete uselessness. Then shortly before the switch to TQ I began casually tanking, and I pursued Caldari HAVs after the switch to TQ. Since then this character has been all about vehicles (Caldari vehicles). It was all about doing something different than running on foot in CoD for over three years and I enjoyed the vehicle warfare in BF3. I also have a 12 (?) million SP alt which runs Amarr assault with laser rifle. My gun game is on the constant up and down cycle, but I almost always end up with a positive KD and ISK efficiency. Just yesterday I got a personal best with most kills in one match when I went 43/4. "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32 -- "Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2946	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:46:00 - [68] - Quote Yes, I have 27M SP on my main, but my playstyle has not changed at all over time, only the amount of ISK I lose every battle . The best way to learn this game is actually to be a logi, stay in the second wave with a laser/tar, pick off stragglers and throw down useful equipment for the team. I began as a 500k SP character just like everyone else. My actual CCP Rattati dev character, I never play him actually, maybe I will go out and get killed a few times tonight. He is terrible though, only starter fits and zero isk. I will be easy prey. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

DEAD-EYE-KILLER Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 8	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:48:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, I have 27M SP on my main, but my playstyle has not changed at all over time, only the amount of ISK I lose every battle . The best way to learn this game is actually to be a logi, stay in the second wave with a laser/tar, pick off stragglers and throw down useful equipment for the team. I began as a 500k SP character just like everyone else. My actual CCP Rattati dev character, I never play him actually, maybe I will go out and get killed a few times tonight. He is terrible though, only starter fits and zero isk. I will be easy prey. Welcome to the new player experience!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 71	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:52:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, I have 27M SP on my main, but my playstyle has not changed at all over time, only the amount of ISK I lose every battle . The best way to learn this game is actually to be a logi, stay in the second wave with a laser/tar, pick off stragglers and throw down useful equipment for the team. I began as a 500k SP character just like everyone else. My actual CCP Rattati dev character, I never play him actually, maybe I will go out and get killed a few times tonight. He is terrible though, only starter fits and zero isk. I will be easy prey. Use devhax for some isk. Choo Choo


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2947	Posted - 2014.06.20 04:55:00 - [71] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, I have 27M SP on my main, but my playstyle has not changed at all over time, only the amount of ISK I lose every battle . The best way to learn this game is actually to be a logi, stay in the second wave with a laser/tar, pick off stragglers and throw down useful equipment for the team. I began as a 500k SP character just like everyone else. My actual CCP Rattati dev character, I never play him actually, maybe I will go out and get killed a few times tonight. He is terrible though, only starter fits and zero isk. I will be easy prey. Welcome to the new player experience! due to my name.... "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 71	Posted - 2014.06.20 05:00:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, I have 27M SP on my main, but my playstyle has not changed at all over time, only the amount of ISK I lose every battle . The best way to learn this game is actually to be a logi, stay in the second wave with a laser/tar, pick off stragglers and throw down useful equipment for the team. I began as a 500k SP character just like everyone else. My actual CCP Rattati dev character, I never play him actually, maybe I will go out and get killed a few times tonight. He is terrible though, only starter fits and zero isk. I will be easy prey. Welcome to the new player experience! due to my name.... I will find you, and... Choo Choo
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 365	Posted - 2014.06.20 05:09:00 - [73] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I had the exact opposite Dom experience yesterday, anecdotal of course, but still. Broke through a 4 tank line, turned the tables completely, claimed the point, lost it, won it again and held on. This is why I love this game like no other, every action I took meant something, from switching to dedicated AV in the beginning, to establishing a footholdhold with armor hives and uplinks, to breaching with my Duvolle AR and finally to stand and defend in a Sentinel. You must have a lot of SP. A logi suit with hives and uplinks A heavy sentinel suit, a duvolle I would be happy to have a heavy suit and an advanced forge, I guess in a few months I can at least do one roll you have. Seems legit unless you have millions of sp invested you can't do much in the game except die. OK I get it now. Hmm maybe this game is not for me after all. I will keep trying but if the sentiment from the dev team is get good on 2.5 million SP I just don't know what to say to that. when i started, i died alot. i had some choices about what to do about it. A) i could quit. B) i could keep playing knowing that the SP would come eventually, where i could get better skills and gear. C) i could make an alt, and spec in to one role as quick as possible by not wasting sp. i chose option C
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2077	Posted - 2014.06.20 05:21:00 - [74] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ... zero isk. I got isk. You got buffs. Let's trade. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2958	Posted - 2014.06.20 05:38:00 - [75] - Quote Jumped into a battle as CCP Rattati, needed to see if I remembered my CCP psn password. Squaded up with some players, got in a couple of long range kills with my mil PLC, and recognized a few, Atiim and PepelePew . All good. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 368	Posted - 2014.06.20 05:44:00 - [76] - Quote Egorf Nug Saying what's on people's minds
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3638	Posted - 2014.06.20 06:08:00 - [77] - Quote You are wrong, and foolish. Like True, I have a lot of SP invested in both HAVs and infantry. I spend most of my time avoiding the tanks on foot these days. It's not hard. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6106	Posted - 2014.06.20 06:31:00 - [78] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I had the exact opposite Dom experience yesterday, anecdotal of course, but still. Broke through a 4 tank line, turned the tables completely, claimed the point, lost it, won it again and held on. This is why I love this game like no other, every action I took meant something, from switching to dedicated AV in the beginning, to establishing a footholdhold with armor hives and uplinks, to breaching with my Duvolle AR and finally to stand and defend in a Sentinel. Anecdotal indeed, here's my anecdotal evidence from Hotfix Alpha. I plan on recording another video for Hotfix Bravo but as this video indicates, don't have to worry so much about "helping cap objectives" when you control the majority of them in the first place. EDIT: Bear in mind, I went negative about 100,000 ISK while the enemy team probably made a profit due to the pricing of vehicles versus AV infantry. The fact that our entire squad was dedicated AV that match and still had extreme difficulty just because of the -amount- of tanks we were facing, accompanied by infantry, made it nigh impossible to actually turn that match around. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 488	Posted - 2014.06.20 06:40:00 - [79] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Atiim wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: David Mustane wrote: AV is still joke. Mlt gear does nothing to deter any AV. So until AV is balanced to match the AV output, AV just isn't an option for anyone but those in proto gear. And tankers will QQ once AV is balanced. Vehicles (save for LLAVS which are now gone) were pretty much pointless to even field from most of beta up until 1.6 and pilots never went as far as demanding their own game mode. No, I know who's taking the QQ crown. Infantry & AV QQ still has not come close to the level of Pilot QQ, and most likely never will. Good attempt at trolling though. You may actually manage to fool the people who weren't here for that era.. Again, pilots haven't essentially told Infantry to go play somewhere else, now have they? This is what happened here: "** your playstyle, ** you personally. This is my sandbox now and you'll only use the toys i'm okay with." No amount of forum QQ does even compare to this level disregard for other members of the community. This is a completely new level. Out of curiosity, how many of the ambush playing tankers do you think would play a vehicle-only mode?
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1408	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:19:00 - [80] - Quote castba wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Again, pilots haven't essentially told Infantry to go play somewhere else, now have they? This is what happened here: "** your playstyle, ** you personally. This is my sandbox now and you'll only use the toys i'm okay with." No amount of forum QQ does even compare to this level disregard for other members of the community. This is a completely new level. Out of curiosity, how many of the ambush playing tankers do you think would play a vehicle-only mode? Of just the tankers? Probably not a huge amount seeing as their current design pretty much consists of infantry denial and killing other tanks, the former of which wouldn't be possible, the latter of which would be unsustainable for just about everyone. I know what you're getting at and you have a point. But let me just say that the same dynamics apply to AV focused roles in ambush right now. They too no longer fill any sensible purpose there because they're dependant on vehicles as targets. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2040	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:28:00 - [81] - Quote castba wrote: Out of curiosity, how many of the ambush playing tankers do you think would play a vehicle-only mode? Before the vehicle overhaul, there was a major push for a "Vehicle only" request for HAV enthusiasts, never happened though, and I doubt it ever will. It would be a pain to even enforce, given how we have to call vehicles in and don't spawn in them. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 875	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:28:00 - [82] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I had the exact opposite Dom experience yesterday, anecdotal of course, but still. Broke through a 4 tank line, turned the tables completely, claimed the point, lost it, won it again and held on. This is why I love this game like no other, every action I took meant something, from switching to dedicated AV in the beginning, to establishing a footholdhold with armor hives and uplinks, to breaching with my Duvolle AR and finally to stand and defend in a Sentinel. I just played the funnest Ambush game I've ever played. Lots of tanks were called in, lots went boom, it went back and forth and we won with 2 clones, we were up 10 but the last couple of guys were kicking it and it was touch and go. I like OMS because I hate tanks.I played a lot of skirmish today and I would say tanks are not dominating the game anymore. They are still strong, but killable, and now more people actually try so we have a cascade effect and this is the type of dynamic you can't predict through graphs easily, it is psychological. Because, that's why.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:36:00 - [83] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: Tankers have now moved from ambush to skirm and domination. I guess there is more open space to mount a counter attack. However 5 tanks on one side in a match is still dumb. do you know whats even dumber? a team pulls out 5 tanks, and the other team doesn't pull out AV, tanks, ADS and jihad jeeps... that's the dumbest...
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 875	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:36:00 - [84] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I had the exact opposite Dom experience yesterday, anecdotal of course, but still. Broke through a 4 tank line, turned the tables completely, claimed the point, lost it, won it again and held on. This is why I love this game like no other, every action I took meant something, from switching to dedicated AV in the beginning, to establishing a footholdhold with armor hives and uplinks, to breaching with my Duvolle AR and finally to stand and defend in a Sentinel. You must have a lot of SP. A logi suit with hives and uplinks A heavy sentinel suit, a duvolle I would be happy to have a heavy suit and an advanced forge, I guess in a few months I can at least do one roll you have. Seems legit unless you have millions of sp invested you can't do much in the game except die. OK I get it now. Hmm maybe this game is not for me after all. I will keep trying but if the sentiment from the dev team is get good on 2.5 million SP I just don't know what to say to that. What is your suggestion? How can you make it both rewarding and challenging for both new players and vets? The only solution I can see is to separate them. In the meantime, pick one role and concentrate on that. You can't do it all at this point so don't try. I f you want to drop uplinks, just do that, don't try to take on the tanks, eliminate the heavies, rep and revive everyone or kill every red dot. Just pick one role and do it well, it takes discipline, then later pick another role if you want until you can do all those things. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 875	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:38:00 - [85] - Quote And yeah, anyone newish has shared your frustration and I still feel it even though I am not on the receiving end anymore. Because, that's why.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:39:00 - [86] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I had the exact opposite Dom experience yesterday, anecdotal of course, but still. Broke through a 4 tank line, turned the tables completely, claimed the point, lost it, won it again and held on. This is why I love this game like no other, every action I took meant something, from switching to dedicated AV in the beginning, to establishing a footholdhold with armor hives and uplinks, to breaching with my Duvolle AR and finally to stand and defend in a Sentinel. You must have a lot of SP. A logi suit with hives and uplinks A heavy sentinel suit, a duvolle I would be happy to have a heavy suit and an advanced forge, I guess in a few months I can at least do one roll you have. Seems legit unless you have millions of sp invested you can't do much in the game except die. OK I get it now. Hmm maybe this game is not for me after all. I will keep trying but if the sentiment from the dev team is get good on 2.5 million SP I just don't know what to say to that. this game is all about investment... if you want a quick fix then no this game isn't for you.... time and effort brings reward... and even more important, creating a social network... in new eden, without friends, you lose... just don't ever trust them with your isk
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1408	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:41:00 - [87] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: castba wrote: Out of curiosity, how many of the ambush playing tankers do you think would play a vehicle-only mode? Before the vehicle overhaul, there was a major push for a "Vehicle only" request for HAV enthusiasts, never happened though, and I doubt it ever will. It would be a pain to even enforce, given how we have to call vehicles in and don't spawn in them. Searching for vehicle only turn up this gem. CB though, and it doesn't seem to bee meant very seriously. Beyond that. I trust O'Dell (oh look, she's one of two likes in that thread) to support such a thing but that person was notorious for being pretty extreme in that regard. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 489	Posted - 2014.06.20 07:47:00 - [88] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: castba wrote: Out of curiosity, how many of the ambush playing tankers do you think would play a vehicle-only mode? Before the vehicle overhaul, there was a major push for a "Vehicle only" request for HAV enthusiasts, never happened though, and I doubt it ever will. It would be a pain to even enforce, given how we have to call vehicles in and don't spawn in them. Easy done. MLT or STD infantry equipment/suits only. No limit on vehicle types nor amount per side. Would also make for a "gauntlet" as such for hardcore AVers.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 949	Posted - 2014.06.20 10:01:00 - [89] - Quote DEAD-EYE-KILLER wrote: Tankers have now moved from ambush to skirm and domination. I guess there is more open space to mount a counter attack. However 5 tanks on one side in a match is still dumb. All the good tankers were already there by the way. The Amarr scout bonus is like the old Amarr sentinel bonus. No one needed 25% reduction to overheat damage on a heavy;_;
Schecter 666 71	Posted - 2014.06.20 11:29:00 - [90] - Quote I've noticed this too,gg to storm fighters for spamming 5 tanks in a skirmish last night, I guess it's too embarrassing to have no skill whatsoever and instead chicken out when there's competition on the other side!! The Struggle...is tolerating DUST for even 1 match without flushing your own foot down the toilet in a fit of rage.



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