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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
9047
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Then I will take back everything bad I have ever said about CCP and sing your praises on the forums.
Do not disappoint me humans.
Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
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Pvt Numnutz
R 0 N 1 N
1141
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tiercide would ruin the ground game. The vehicle game was pretty good besides the unbalance and now there is only a handful of fits, tiercide would really make the ground game dull, not improve it. |
A recent Recruit
Isuuaya Tactical
Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Tiercide would ruin the ground game. The vehicle game was pretty good besides the unbalance and now there is only a handful of fits, tiercide would really make the ground game dull, not improve it.
Dull for protostompers maybe, but fun for everyone else. |
Tweaksz
Jaded Clones
60
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
This...
Unicorn GalScout with TAR/BAR and IoP/BoltP.
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
9050
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Tiercide would ruin the ground game. The vehicle game was pretty good besides the unbalance and now there is only a handful of fits, tiercide would really make the ground game dull, not improve it.
On the contrary, having everyone run around in a "protosuit" instead of the wet tissue paper that is an STD suit would be interesting.
Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
3070
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
What will probably be revealed at fanfest:
-Graphics update like always
-Plans for more EVE connections (most likely how they will "fix" PC)
-Redesign of the way we play the game (better map design, revamped game modes, redefining the vehicle dimension)
-Another "great" idea of theirs for changing the NPE that won't actually do much at all.
What I want them to reveal at fanfest:
-New game modes and/or PVE alpha gameplay
-NPE being their MAIN priority and focus
-To tell us that they're going to shift their focus away from content
-A heavy weapon
What they won't reveal at fanfest:
-How they're scrapping everything so far and are going to do tiercide
-Dust on PS4, PC, or Xbone
-Tons of new content
Links:
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
I make logistics videos!
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medomai grey
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
634
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tiercide on suits would be a great boon to the game.
The power gap created by suits is large. Not only do you get more CPU/PG to fit better things, you get more slots to fit more things as well.
Medium frame EHP is not medium
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Rifter7
Ancient Exiles.
419
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Posted - 2014.04.27 13:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
can we just make it so everyone can afford proto suits from pub profits? like have the payout be 500k - 1mil. bam. farm if you want, but you have the choice to bring some proto ****.
Primus sucks.
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
648
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Posted - 2014.04.27 13:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Tiercide would ruin the ground game. The vehicle game was pretty good besides the unbalance and now there is only a handful of fits, tiercide would really make the ground game dull, not improve it.
Amen .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
648
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Posted - 2014.04.27 13:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rifter7 wrote:can we just make it so everyone can afford proto suits from pub profits? like have the payout be 500k - 1mil. bam. farm if you want, but you have the choice to bring some proto ****.
NO .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
648
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Posted - 2014.04.27 13:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Tiercide on suits would be a great boon to the game.
The power gap created by suits is large. Not only do you get more CPU/PG to fit better things, you get more slots to fit more things as well.
That's why you play and compete , this should not be easy and cater to those who just do not want to work for what is needed to succeed .
These people are trying to kill this game like they dummied down the vehicles .
Wonder how that's working with a large percentage of post about vehicles and how they are ruining the game .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
3032
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Posted - 2014.04.27 13:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm honestly not a big fan of tiercide, don't know why but I just don't.
Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
684
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 13:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Many people don't understand tiercide.
I'm not sure why.
Probably never seen it work in EVE - Probably think they need to be further rewarded for SP investment.
Having somethin do exactly the same thing as something else, but better =/= variety.
Especially without asymmetrical warfare.
Defining Tiers as 'variety/diversity' is the definition of dumbed down gameplay, that appeals to CoD players that weren't very good at CoD.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2024
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Posted - 2014.04.27 13:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tiericide: The forum's version of the nanny state. We're already halfway there with the passive in-match sp dole.
In the spirit of the OP's suggestion, CCP should also hand out bunny stickers and 'awards' for any merc who goes better than 0/0/25 in a match.
And don't forget a 'gold star commendation' for any merc who shows up with his gun, and two 'gold star commendations' if it's loaded. Maybe we should just make it a colorful/cartoony 'IWS/Cat Merc' sticker instead.
And CCP, any merc who makes it through an in-depth, hands on, performance-measuring tutorial/walkthrough with timed trials and several combat/recon/battlefield awareness modules, you can give those recruits a 'Vrain' sticker.
o7
I support SP rollover.
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
649
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 13:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Want players like myself to leave then keep listening to pollution like such and you will find out .
Players like my self play for the variety and the customization factor , you got away from that with the vehicles and the side arms that you just introduced , also ... don't think that there are some who aren't aware of what your doing CCP because your game isn't that dam addictive .. hell ****** and crack addict's can kick their prospective drugs so this game can not be that dam demanding .
Your slowly killing this game by listening to the poison of the community .
There are a mass of game's that have the same concept but yet people come and play dust because it's not those other games but it is slowly evolving into those other games so , why play this as well ???
You keep listening CCP and you will have what you ask for , time will tell .
You players who want easy mode go and play that other crap and let those who love to compete play dust .
You jerks are ruining this game for the rest of us .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
165
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:I'm honestly not a big fan of tiercide, don't know why but I just don't.
Probably because you, like everyone else who's against it, don't actually know what it is. |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2025
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Want players like myself to leave then keep listening to pollution like such and you will find out .
Players like my self play for the variety and the customization factor , you got away from that with the vehicles and the side arms that you just introduced , also ... don't think that there are some who aren't aware of what your doing CCP because your game isn't that dam addictive .. hell ****** and crack addict's can kick their prospective drugs so this game can not be that dam demanding .
Your slowly killing this game by listening to the poison of the community .
There are a mass of game's that have the same concept but yet people come and play dust because it's not those other games but it is slowly evolving into those other games so , why play this as well ???
You keep listening CCP and you will have what you ask for , time will tell .
You players who want easy mode go and play that other crap and let those who love to compete play dust .
You jerks are ruining this game for the rest of us .
F'kin A, bubba. You are a merc's merc. o7
I support SP rollover.
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
649
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:Many people don't understand tiercide.
You sound like one of those economist who spoke during the 80's about tying the world's economy into one world economy ," No let's not let people decide for themselves when we can do it for them , we know better than they do anyway ... what " they " want ."
Wonder how that's going now for those who had jobs and now don't because the company that they worked for took the plant that provided for their town or city and placed it somewhere else so they can turn a larger profit and flood the economy with crappy , cheep goods for less pay and more labor .
That's how Dust will be with tiericide .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
649
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Want players like myself to leave then keep listening to pollution like such and you will find out .
Players like my self play for the variety and the customization factor , you got away from that with the vehicles and the side arms that you just introduced , also ... don't think that there are some who aren't aware of what your doing CCP because your game isn't that dam addictive .. hell ****** and crack addict's can kick their prospective drugs so this game can not be that dam demanding .
Your slowly killing this game by listening to the poison of the community .
There are a mass of game's that have the same concept but yet people come and play dust because it's not those other games but it is slowly evolving into those other games so , why play this as well ???
You keep listening CCP and you will have what you ask for , time will tell .
You players who want easy mode go and play that other crap and let those who love to compete play dust .
You jerks are ruining this game for the rest of us . F'kin A, bubba. You are a merc's merc. o7
Thank you . 
I try  .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Jebus McKing
Sinister Souls
355
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
1) Tiericide =/= remove ADV and PRO and replace them with NOTHING.
2) Tiericide = transform ADV and PRO to fit different roles rather than them being plain better versions of the lower tier.
=> Tiericide increases variety
Noone in their right minds is asking CCP to just remove the upper tiers! We want them to be replaced by something that is more of a side-grade than a simple upgrade!
@JebusMcKing // TIERICIDE, just do it, CCP.
ò_Ô
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
690
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Yan Darn wrote:Many people don't understand tiercide.
You sound like one of those economist who spoke during the 80's about tying the world's economy into one world economy ," No let's not let people decide for themselves when we can do it for them , we know better than they do anyway ... what " they " want ." Wonder how that's going now for those who had jobs and now don't because the company that they worked for took the plant that provided for their town or city and placed it somewhere else so they can turn a larger profit and flood the economy with crappy , cheep goods for less pay and more labor . That's how Dust will be with tiericide .
No, I'm like a British/French person trying explain to a Saudi prince that democracy and egalitarian principles are the way forward.
You know, cause we know from experience (EVE) this path isn't sustainable.
The Ghost of Bravo
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Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
170
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is? |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2026
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:1) Tiericide =/= remove ADV and PRO and replace them with NOTHING.
2) Tiericide = transform ADV and PRO to fit different roles rather than them being plain better versions of the lower tier.
=> Tiericide increases variety
Noone in their right minds is asking CCP to just remove the upper tiers! We want them to be replaced by something that is more of a side-grade than a simple upgrade!
I understand what tiericide means, and there are some parts of the tiericide argument that have merit.
But when it gets invoked as a way to level the sp/gear/isk playing field, then it's absolute poison - for DUST and New Eden.
I support SP rollover.
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
I was a fan of tiericide before I started accumulating more skillpoints.
Once I learned to upgrade core skills before all else, I enjoyed significantly more survivability. Once I got those done and started leveling up my weapons I started enjoying more utility and damage.
Putting in the time and effort that I have has led me to appreciate where I've gotten.
I no longer wish for tiericide. Earn your stripes, and enjoy the benefits afterward. Tiericide will greatly hamper the high degree of customizability the game currently offers imho.
Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor
/
Do you even lift?
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2026
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gaelon Thrace wrote:Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is?
Open question for anyone who opposes a deeply unlevel playing field: why do you think it's bad?
I support SP rollover.
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gaelon Thrace wrote:Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is?
As I understand it (I googled it when I started hearing it thrown around a lot), it means the elimination of tiers (basic/enhance/complex, STD/ADV/PRO).
No thank you.
Imho, tiericide may improve the game experience in the short term, but it will damage it in the long term. If CCP can get its act together and introduce a new, revamped NPE, PvE, and a player market...the game will be very strongly positively impacted in both the short and long term.
Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor
/
Do you even lift?
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
9055
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
My version of tiercide involves the removal of STD/ADV suits (Weapons and modules stay as is), making Basic suits cost a lot less while making specialized suits cost a lot more.
You will still have progression with core skills, weapons, modules and suit bonuses.
The only thing that is removed is the power gap that suits create, which IMO is too much.
Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
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Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
171
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zaaeed Massani wrote: Tiericide will greatly hamper the high degree of customizability the game currently offers imho.
How? I've seen several people make this claim but not a single argument to support it. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
9055
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Gaelon Thrace wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote: Tiericide will greatly hamper the high degree of customizability the game currently offers imho. How? I've seen several people make this claim but not a single argument to support it.
Because it doesn't exist.
Having everyone in a "protosuit" INCREASES customization, as everyone has a lot of module slots.
STD and ADV suits are barely customizable in comparison to proto.
And no one in their right mind would remove the different module and weapon tiers, that exists in EVE for a good reason: CPU/PG, and it should exist in DUST too.
Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
1009
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:1) Tiericide =/= remove ADV and PRO and replace them with NOTHING.
2) Tiericide = transform ADV and PRO to fit different roles rather than them being plain better versions of the lower tier.
=> Tiericide increases variety
Noone in their right minds is asking CCP to just remove the upper tiers! We want them to be replaced by something that is more of a side-grade than a simple upgrade!
Or I could just fit a suit for the role I want to play. They defined logi roles based on the suit, now you don't see as many people running logi fits. It's no longer worth risking that much ISK when 2/rds of your equipment isn't going to get you worth while WP.
Your game f'ing sucks, but I'll still play it.... damn you!
Henchmen21: Infantry
Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Gaelon Thrace wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote: Tiericide will greatly hamper the high degree of customizability the game currently offers imho. How? I've seen several people make this claim but not a single argument to support it.
Simple. Removing suit options greatly reduces variety.
The power dynamic that comes with choosing your suit, choosing the modules to fit it with, how much the final product costs, how the cost impacts your wallet, how the costs of different loadouts affect the economy of the game (when it is finally introduced)...these things are what separate DUST 514 from just another lobby shooter. I would very much like to keeo it that way.
Like I said, just my opinion.
Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor
/
Do you even lift?
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
9055
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
Zaaeed Massani wrote:Gaelon Thrace wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote: Tiericide will greatly hamper the high degree of customizability the game currently offers imho. How? I've seen several people make this claim but not a single argument to support it. Simple. Removing suit options greatly reduces variety. The power dynamic that comes with choosing your suit, choosing the modules to fit it with, how much the final product costs, how the cost impacts your wallet, how the costs of different loadouts affect the economy of the game (when it is finally introduced)...these things are what separate DUST 514 from just another lobby shooter. I would very much like to keeo it that way. Like I said, just my opinion.
But you see, it also comes with the rebalancing of MLT, Basic frames and specialized suits.
The mechanic will still be there, just transformed.
Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote:Gaelon Thrace wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote: Tiericide will greatly hamper the high degree of customizability the game currently offers imho. How? I've seen several people make this claim but not a single argument to support it. Simple. Removing suit options greatly reduces variety. The power dynamic that comes with choosing your suit, choosing the modules to fit it with, how much the final product costs, how the cost impacts your wallet, how the costs of different loadouts affect the economy of the game (when it is finally introduced)...these things are what separate DUST 514 from just another lobby shooter. I would very much like to keeo it that way. Like I said, just my opinion. But you see, it also comes with the rebalancing of MLT, Basic frames and specialized suits. The mechanic will still be there, just transformed.
I suppose, but then I think the skill tree would have to be revamped to create larger bonuses for players that have invested tens of millions of SP into passively improving their suits.
Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor
/
Do you even lift?
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
9056
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Posted - 2014.04.27 14:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zaaeed Massani wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote:Gaelon Thrace wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote: Tiericide will greatly hamper the high degree of customizability the game currently offers imho. How? I've seen several people make this claim but not a single argument to support it. Simple. Removing suit options greatly reduces variety. The power dynamic that comes with choosing your suit, choosing the modules to fit it with, how much the final product costs, how the cost impacts your wallet, how the costs of different loadouts affect the economy of the game (when it is finally introduced)...these things are what separate DUST 514 from just another lobby shooter. I would very much like to keeo it that way. Like I said, just my opinion. But you see, it also comes with the rebalancing of MLT, Basic frames and specialized suits. The mechanic will still be there, just transformed. I suppose, but then I think the skill tree would have to be revamped to create larger bonuses for players that have invested tens of millions of SP into passively improving their suits.
No?
The skills will still be there, I have not suggested anything other than removing STD/ADV dropsuits and rebalancing MLT, Basic and Specialized suits.
Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2030
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Posted - 2014.04.27 15:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:My version of tiercide involves the removal of STD/ADV suits (Weapons and modules stay as is), making Basic suits cost a lot less while making specialized suits cost a lot more.
You will still have progression with core skills, weapons, modules and suit bonuses.
The only thing that is removed is the power gap that suits create, which IMO is too much.
This is the heart of the differences being expressed in this thread:
1) How big should the power gap be between noobs and vets?
With our current system, the power gap is geometric: (passive skill gap)*(module access gap)*(suit slot gap)*(battlefield knowledge gap)*(gungame gap).
Personally i think that's a beautiful thing, and many players have shown us that the first three factors can be compensated for by the last two factors, and that of those two the 'battlefield knowledge' factor is the more important of the two.
2) How does the size of that power gap affect the short and long term survivability/prosperity of DUST?
Here fear wants us to push DUST towards other mainstream shooters because we know that those games do well by setting the barrier for entry/viability very low. All of us here on the forums are sensitive to how low DUST's user numbers are, so the urge to get more peeps in here at any cost is hard to resist.
Many peeps make the assumption that what drives new players away from DUST is protostomping and hence they blame the powergap caused by passive skills, tiers, isk, etc...
I believe that what is driving new players away from the game is shabby core mechanics, especially the core FPS mechanics. Here's the thing: DUST is very much like Demon's Souls/Dark Souls in that it is brutally tough and is guaranteed to beat most new players into a bloody pulp. This is ok, it's a viable way to design a game, but there is a BIG necessary condition that comes with a game like this.
If a game designer wants to succeed with a brutally difficult game, especially a game that centers on skillful user-based input, the it is absolutely imperative that the designer provide flawless controls to the player. There is no way around this, and no other game content will compensate for poor/unreliable controls, ever.
Imo, this is the primary reason DUST is failing - it's a brutally hard FPS with poor controls.
I support SP rollover.
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
691
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 15:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Gaelon Thrace wrote:Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is? Open question for anyone who opposes a deeply unlevel playing field: why do you think it's bad? Edit: Had to add this quote from Kovinis Sparagas in another thread: "If you just download this game from store not knowing anything about it - you will delete it in10 minutes. Because this isn't your ordinary Call of Battlefield. New Eden will welcome him, and then kick directly in his nuts and spit on him with proto-stomping and HAV, and when after 10 deaths will show the bill, because you have to pay money (ISK) every time you die. And then he will be lying defenceless on the ground with his own fluids from his pants all around him, from fear - when the game will ask him: - Want to be like them? Then you have to work your way up son, because no one is helping you here. Your on your own kid. After this conversation 90% of them will delete this game as fast as they can. Other 10% are real men. In other words - only we can advertise this game to our friends, and help them to become real men, like we are."
Edit:'was unnecessarily tetchy.
If you believe Tiercide will remove the 'unfair/New Eden' element of Dust, I assume you must think EVE is just a montage of people cuddling pink fluffy bunnies, flying past each other in their spaceships tipping their hat and saying 'have a wonderful day!' to everyone on their way to a duall bouncy castle/teddy bear exhibit.
@Zaeed
Tiercide basically means basic/ADV/Complex modules and weapons would stay - but you have a STD Variation of suit that has slots/grid somewhere between current ADV/ Proto. However - then you would have more expensive 'Tech 2' Versions that are more specialised - like a scout suit that is faster, but cant fit cloaks or a Sentinel that can 'Hunker Down' for increased damage reduction/weapon range, but is even slower than normal Sentinels, or Logis etc.
I'm pulling ideas out my arse here of course - just go on the EVE site, have a look at the Caladri T1 frigates, then have a look at how the T2 specialisations (Assault, Interceptor, Cov-Ops, Stealth Bomber etc.) work.
Then come back and tell me like others here that Tiercide ruins variety, and you will know why I think they are ridulous, ignorant and shortsighted.
If they were right, we could just keep adding higher and higher tiers of suits that just have more slots and grid. That will make the game more diverse and varied, right?
More slots and grid =/= different suit. If it did we would just have an Amarr Heavy, Cal Assault, Min Logi and Gal Scout.
We could have super-proto Gal scouts, then mega proto Gal scouts, then Giga-proto Gal scouts. All functionally identical to each other, just each one having a steady increase of slots and grid. All the 'variety' you'd ever need.
So much choice!
The Ghost of Bravo
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Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
172
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Posted - 2014.04.27 15:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Zaaeed Massani wrote:Gaelon Thrace wrote:Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is? As I understand it (I googled it when I started hearing it thrown around a lot), it means the elimination of tiers (basic/enhance/complex, STD/ADV/PRO). No thank you. Imho, tiericide may improve the game experience in the short term, but it will damage it in the long term. If CCP can get its act together and introduce a new, revamped NPE, PvE, and a player market...the game will be very strongly positively impacted in both the short and long term.
It's a bit more involved than that. Based on how it worked in EVE, here's roughly how I see it working in DUST.
It should be noted that I personally only advocate for Dropsuit tiericide.
Instead of having basic frames and specialized frames each split up into a tiers you have "Rookie" Dropsuits, Faction Dropsuits, Tech I Dropsuits, and Tech II Dropsuits.
Rookie
Free newbie suits with racial or role specific bonuses
Has stats and layout of current Militia basic frames
Faction
Bought with LP
Gets racial bonus
Has stats and layout of current Standard basic frames
Tech I
Cheap basic Medium, Light, and Heavy suits
Gets racial bonuses, but no role bonuses
Stats and layout of current Advanced basic frames
Tech II
Specialized role suits (Assault, Logi, Scout, Pilot, Sentinel, Commando, whatever else they come up with in the future)
Gets racial bonuses as well as role bonuses
More expensive than Tech I, but not so much as to be prohibitive to newer players
Gets stats and layout of current Prototype specialized frames
That's the basic idea, anyway. I'm sure everything would get a balancing pass in the process as well like they did with the EVE ships.
This would actually make future additions easier as they wouldn't have to design and balance several different tiers for every new suit they decide to make, so in the long run it promotes more variety and customization. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
9056
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 15:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Gaelon Thrace wrote:Zaaeed Massani wrote:Gaelon Thrace wrote:Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is? As I understand it (I googled it when I started hearing it thrown around a lot), it means the elimination of tiers (basic/enhance/complex, STD/ADV/PRO). No thank you. Imho, tiericide may improve the game experience in the short term, but it will damage it in the long term. If CCP can get its act together and introduce a new, revamped NPE, PvE, and a player market...the game will be very strongly positively impacted in both the short and long term. It's a bit more involved than that. Based on how it worked in EVE, here's roughly how I see it working in DUST. It should be noted that I personally only advocate for Dropsuit tiericide. Instead of having basic frames and specialized frames each split up into a tiers you have "Rookie" Dropsuits, Faction Dropsuits, Tech I Dropsuits, and Tech II Dropsuits. RookieFree newbie suits with racial or role specific bonuses Has stats and layout of current Militia basic frames FactionBought with LP Gets racial bonus Has stats and layout of current Standard basic frames Tech ICheap basic Medium, Light, and Heavy suits Gets racial bonuses, but no role bonuses Stats and layout of current Advanced basic frames Tech IISpecialized role suits (Assault, Logi, Scout, Pilot, Sentinel, Commando, whatever else they come up with in the future) Gets racial bonuses as well as role bonuses More expensive than Tech I, but not so much as to be prohibitive to newer players Gets stats and layout of current Prototype specialized frames That's the basic idea, anyway. I'm sure everything would get a balancing pass in the process as well like they did with the EVE ships. This would actually make future additions easier as they wouldn't have to design and balance several different tiers for every new suit they decide to make, so in the long run it promotes more variety and customization.
Actually, Factional < T1
Factional Gear can often surpass T2 too.
Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
|
Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 15:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
Actually, Factional < T1
Factional Gear can often surpass T2 too.
Didn't know that. I got the impression Faction ships were somewhere between Rookie and T1, but I've never actually played EVE.
That's why I prefaced it as a rough idea of how it might work. |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2031
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 15:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:
...
If you believe Tiercide will remove the 'unfair/New Eden' element of Dust, I assume you must think EVE is just a montage of people cuddling pink fluffy bunnies, flying past each other in their spaceships tipping their hat and saying 'have a wonderful day!' to everyone on their way to a duall bouncy castle/teddy bear exhibit.
...
I dunno, I've been fighting in nullsec since 2005. I'm thinking i grok it.
I support SP rollover.
|
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
697
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 15:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Yan Darn wrote:
...
If you believe Tiercide will remove the 'unfair/New Eden' element of Dust, I assume you must think EVE is just a montage of people cuddling pink fluffy bunnies, flying past each other in their spaceships tipping their hat and saying 'have a wonderful day!' to everyone on their way to a duall bouncy castle/teddy bear exhibit.
...
I dunno, I've been fighting in nullsec since 2005. I'm thinking i grok it.
Were you against tiercide in EVE too?
Cause Ironically, with the ability to actually outnumber your opponents, having Tiers in EVE wouldn't cause half the amount it does in the 'tournament' set up that is DUST.
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2031
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 15:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Yan Darn wrote:
...
If you believe Tiercide will remove the 'unfair/New Eden' element of Dust, I assume you must think EVE is just a montage of people cuddling pink fluffy bunnies, flying past each other in their spaceships tipping their hat and saying 'have a wonderful day!' to everyone on their way to a duall bouncy castle/teddy bear exhibit.
...
I dunno, I've been fighting in nullsec since 2005. I'm thinking i grok it. Were you against tiercide in EVE too? Cause Ironically, with the ability to actually outnumber your opponents, having Tiers in EVE wouldn't cause half the amount it does in the 'tournament' set up that is DUST.
What you say is true re match structure.
It's your solution i disagree with: My preferred playing field is strongly imbalanced, although it seems that smart, tough new players can handle things just as they are and some even say DUST isn't hard at all.
Your solution is tilted more towards fairness.
I support SP rollover.
|
medomai grey
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
635
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 21:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:medomai grey wrote:Tiercide on suits would be a great boon to the game.
The power gap created by suits is large. Not only do you get more CPU/PG to fit better things, you get more slots to fit more things as well. That's why you play and compete , this should not be easy and cater to those who just do not want to work for what is needed to succeed . These people are trying to kill this game like they dummied down the vehicles . Wonder how that's working with a large percentage of post about vehicles and how they are ruining the game . This game should be fun and competitive, it should not be easy and cater to those who proto-stomp as an I win button against lower SP players.
EVE is a fairly complex game is it not? Guess what, they tiercided the foundations of all their fits, ships. The foundation of our fits in Dust514 are drop suits and vehicles. Tiercide would not dumb down the game.
Tiercide on suits would shrink a power gap much larger then intended, make balancing easier for CPP, and improve new player experience.
Higher tier gear was supposed to provide a slight advantage over lower tier gear. But higher tier suits provide a massive advantage by having more slots than their lower tier counterparts on top of having more CPU/PG. I can fit proto everything on my proto suit and have 2X the EHP of my std suit. Does 2X the EHP and fit with proto everything sound like a slight advantage to you?
Tiercide would drastically cut the suits available down to a third. This would make balancing a much easier task on CCP. And let's be honest, CCP needs all the help it can get when it comes to balancing.
With the overly large power gap caused by suit tiers gone, proto-stomping less effective resulting in higher player retention.
You think that the people supporting tiercide are trying to kill the game? LOL  I think we're done here.
Medium frame EHP is not medium
|
Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
5065
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 21:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Tiercide would ruin the ground game. The vehicle game was pretty good besides the unbalance and now there is only a handful of fits, tiercide would really make the ground game dull, not improve it.
How do you figure? The only thing the suit tiers do is make it so anyone that isn't running a Proto fit gets **** on by anyone who is, unless they pay AURUM to get the same gear which will still be inferior because they don't have the skill bonuses for it.
The point of eliminating suit tiers while keeping tiers with modules, equipment, and weapons is to put the focus on your fit and your skill as a player, not whether you have more SP and more ISK than anyone else. When everyone uses suits with the same slots regardless of skill level, the barrier isn't there, and you have to be -good- with your gear if you want to succeed, not just brick tank your innately better suit and use all the best gear and weapons because it also has more PG and CPU.
The thing is, this would allow for the suits to be given more skill bonuses to enhance them within their specialization, such as in EVE.
In EVE, a Tech I ship gives you two bonuses from the skill, and a Tech II ship gives you two from the Tech I ship skill and two from the Tech II ship skill, as well as Role Bonuses as necessary to allow the ship to perform its intended function.
This is the same level of balance we could have in Dust via Tiericide, which is why it was implemented in EVE in the first place.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
keno trader
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
176
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 21:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
In b4 someone asks for respec.
1.8 --- Still getting spawntrapped by boxes.
1.8 --- Smart deployment = letting a 2 year old handle spawns.
|
Omega Black Zero
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 21:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Yan Darn wrote:Many people don't understand tiercide.
You sound like one of those economist who spoke during the 80's about tying the world's economy into one world economy ," No let's not let people decide for themselves when we can do it for them , we know better than they do anyway ... what " they " want ." Wonder how that's going now for those who had jobs and now don't because the company that they worked for took the plant that provided for their town or city and placed it somewhere else so they can turn a larger profit and flood the economy with crappy , cheep goods for less pay and more labor . That's how Dust will be with tiericide .
You should actually get informed about NAFTA and how it affected not just the US economy but affected the economies south of our border detrimentally. People wonder where illegal immigrants come from, the answer was NAFTA. Free trade and an unregulated economy isn't good either, there has to be some regulation, or you end up like the Caldari. |
Mojo XXXIII
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
80
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 21:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
keno trader wrote:In b4 someone asks for respec.
I want a respe... damn!
Never mind |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
82
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 21:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
No. get rid of all STD and ADV suits, then new players can fit protosuits with basic mods that will still be pretty good. |
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
655
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 08:03:00 -
[49] - Quote
Omega Black Zero wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Yan Darn wrote:Many people don't understand tiercide.
You sound like one of those economist who spoke during the 80's about tying the world's economy into one world economy ," No let's not let people decide for themselves when we can do it for them , we know better than they do anyway ... what " they " want ." Wonder how that's going now for those who had jobs and now don't because the company that they worked for took the plant that provided for their town or city and placed it somewhere else so they can turn a larger profit and flood the economy with crappy , cheep goods for less pay and more labor . That's how Dust will be with tiericide . You should actually get informed about NAFTA and how it affected not just the US economy but affected the economies south of our border detrimentally. People wonder where illegal immigrants come from, the answer was NAFTA. Free trade and an unregulated economy isn't good either, there has to be some regulation, or you end up like the Caldari.
If you look at what I wrote it has anti-free trade comments in it seeing as how that is what led to most of the problems in what is going on .
I have relatives who were and are deeply effected by the changes in American and beyond so I'm well informed when people tell me the trouble and hardships that they have to go threw as a result .
I have personal experience , I don't just make broad stroked comments .
I'm against free-trade and NAFTA , was then and even more so now .
It's not all about America but it is the country that was effected the most , corporations have taken over the justice and internal government system , changed laws to favor their advancement and destroyed whole cities .... have you ever been to Detroit Michigan ??? This nation was the manufacturing hub and global producers , they went from the top to the near bottom of producing but have now become the global consumers but have no base to maintain consumption because they produce nothing but garbage and the large majority of the populace goes jobless and children go malnourished and taken from lack of a stable home life .
It's not about all America but being the ones who use to make to becoming the ones who take is hampering the progress of the planet . It's unsustainable .
You can't deny that during the 70's , 80's and before .. that made in America used to mean something , hell you wouldn't have the video games that you play now if it's wasn't for America .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
|
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
655
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 08:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
On a side note ... tiericide can not help the new player experience and I just get tired of players using fear and propaganda to drive the direction of the game .
NPE suffers because of the poor set up that currently is in the Academy and the lack of a true matchmaking system .
It's not the prototype gear , it's the lack of knowledge and experience that those who begin to play have and the fact that this game changes direction more than someone driving in a downtown of a major city for the first time .
Teach newer players what's important in the game , how to invest their SP's wisely , strategy and how to create a functional load out .
There are so many real reasons of and in why this game suffer and incorporation of tiericide has nothing to do with helping the new player experience , it only truly help those who play in EVE and don't like the flexibility that Dust has and the fact that it's part of the EVE universe , I.E. : the discussion of SP refunds even show that because most who are the most vocal play EVE and that's the first thing that they always bring up in their rebuttal .
I really believe that a lot of players who play in EVE and Dust , resent the fact that Dust is not totally like EVE and there's a greater reign of flexibility in Dust .
The game's should be similar but not the same .
Dust should have some traits but not be EVE in a since .
Two totally different games .
Similar but not the same , thank GOD .
You want EVE then go and play it and stop trying to make Dust , EVE .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Krixus Flux
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
206
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 08:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bro, I'm pretty sure you will find something because that's what you do best.
Saying what's on people's minds
|
Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
2453
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 08:57:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tiericide = Remove power creep from game = How can it be bad??
You are just a bunch of protostomping crybabies.
HTFU Gë£ Live with CCP´s mistakes.
"I tried so hard and got so far.... but in the end it doesnt even matter."
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
708
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 09:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Yan Darn wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Yan Darn wrote:
...
If you believe Tiercide will remove the 'unfair/New Eden' element of Dust, I assume you must think EVE is just a montage of people cuddling pink fluffy bunnies, flying past each other in their spaceships tipping their hat and saying 'have a wonderful day!' to everyone on their way to a duall bouncy castle/teddy bear exhibit.
...
I dunno, I've been fighting in nullsec since 2005. I'm thinking i grok it. Were you against tiercide in EVE too? Cause Ironically, with the ability to actually outnumber your opponents, having Tiers in EVE wouldn't cause half the amount it does in the 'tournament' set up that is DUST. What you say is true re match structure. It's your solution i disagree with: My preferred playing field is strongly imbalanced, although it seems that smart, tough new players can handle things just as they are and some even say DUST isn't hard at all. Your solution is tilted more towards fairness.
I realise I am the who brought up the 'Fairness' issue, however for me it really is more about the lack of diversity.
The role bonuses of 't2' frame plus the SP invested (and greater ISK cost) will always put some players at an advantage over others.
For someone like me with 250mil ISK (I dont even PC or anything) and full proto skills, I'm not seeing the 'variety/diversity' of suit options people are claiming tiers give.
If this was truly sandbox and part of waging battle was down to economics, then maybe I could see some use for the cheaper (read 'just plain worse') frames give.
Simply put, there is nothing close to something like the humble Rifter in EVE.
The Ghost of Bravo
|
Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
507
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 10:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:
2)
I believe that what is driving new players away from the game is shabby core mechanics, especially the core FPS mechanics. Here's the thing: DUST is very much like Demon's Souls/Dark Souls in that it is brutally tough and is guaranteed to beat most new players into a bloody pulp. This is ok, it's a viable way to design a game, but there is a BIG necessary condition that comes with a game like this.
If a game designer wants to succeed with a brutally difficult game, especially a game that centers on skillful user-based input, then it is absolutely imperative that the designer provide flawless controls to the player. There is no way around this, and no other game content will compensate for poor/unreliable controls, ever.
Imo, this is the primary reason DUST is failing - it's a brutally hard FPS with poor controls.
What?
Core FPS, mechanics includes balance. You are crazy is if you think having two guys, one of whom has better damage, twice the HP, shorter hack time, more accuracy, better sensors and higher speed, merely because he started his account earlier than the other guy, is a good thing.
You may think its beautiful but none of the rest of the FPS community does. You are dooming this game to oblivion if you don't address this. A brutally difficult game is not the same thing as blatantly unfair game and SP/tiers directly undermines the principle of a "skilful user based input".
If the vets don't want a fair game then they are the ones who should step off (if CCP has even an ounce of economic good sense).
People claim they "earned their advantage". Rubbish. I can start a new char tomorrow, let it afk-bake for 12 months then come back to a nice juicy advantage over a new starter, all for doing exactly zero. Besides proto-grinding newbies in red-line stomp matches doesn't really sound like "earning it" to me. |
Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
125
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 10:59:00 -
[55] - Quote
Yan Darn wrote:
If you believe Tiercide will remove the 'unfair/New Eden' element of Dust, I assume you must think EVE is just a montage of people cuddling pink fluffy bunnies, flying past each other in their spaceships tipping their hat and saying 'have a wonderful day!' to everyone on their way to a duall bouncy castle/teddy bear exhibit.
It isn't? :( |
NIETZCHES OVERMAN
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
Gaelon Thrace wrote:Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is?
**** Tiericide, just give us a suit at levels 2 and 4 and more slots. The difficulty gap is partialy because of the sp needed between levels 3 and 5, but my core skills matter more really, got nearly 20mil sp just in upgrades. |
Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
5076
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
NIETZCHES OVERMAN wrote:Gaelon Thrace wrote:Open question for anyone who opposes tiericide: What exactly do you think tiericide is? **** Tiericide, just give us a suit at levels 2 and 4 and more slots. The difficulty gap is partialy because of the sp needed between levels 3 and 5, but my core skills matter more really, got nearly 20mil sp just in upgrades.
What you aren't seeing here is that this doesn't do anything to address the fact that at level 1 of a suit skill you are inferior to someone with the skill to 3 or 5 in a way you can do nothing about, other than to have that skill at the same level.
It basically means that if you aren't at the top of each skill, you are rendered unable to compete with people at the highest level, or else made to feel that way.
This isn't a level-based MMO or a shooter with the kind of progression system many players from other shooters are used to. The goal here is horizontal progression, not vertical. You don't get "better", you branch into more roles and become more of a generalist.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
medomai grey
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
640
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:On a side note ... tiericide can not help the new player experience and I just get tired of players using fear and propaganda to drive the direction of the game , they do it with the process of nerfs and buffs and now they just want to flat out ruin the game .
NPE suffers because of the poor set up that currently is in the Academy and the lack of a true matchmaking system .
It's not the prototype gear , it's the lack of knowledge and experience that those who begin to play have and the fact that this game changes direction more than someone driving in a downtown of a major city for the first time .
Teach newer players what's important in the game , how to invest their SP's wisely , strategy and how to create a functional load out . Figure out a better and true matchmaking system . You do not make any actual explanation of why tiercide would not improve NPE. What you do mention is other issues surrounding NPE. And while you are not necessarily wrong regarding these other NPE issues, you have not supported the idea of tiercide not improving NPE.
And yes, I am using fear and propaganda to ruin this game. I even have the power to buff and nerf your imaginary toys at my discretion. This is made possible by anal probes secretly inserted into CCP's employees. Soil yourselves at the very sight of this troll propaganda which is 100% true! 
Quote:There are so many real reasons of and in why this game suffer and incorporation of tiericide has nothing to do with helping the new player experience , it only truly helps those who play in EVE and don't like the flexibility that Dust has and the fact that it's part of the EVE universe , I.E. : the discussion of SP refunds even show that because most who are the most vocal play EVE and that's the first thing that they always bring up in their rebuttal .
I really believe that a lot of players who play in EVE and Dust , resent the fact that Dust is not totally like EVE and there's a greater reign of flexibility in Dust .
The game's should be similar but not the same .
Dust should have some traits but not be EVE in a since .
Two totally different games .
Similar but not the same , thank GOD .
You want EVE then go and play it and stop trying to make Dust , EVE . So, two things I take issue with. The first is the baseless statement that EVE players are demanding respecs. You have provided no evidence or reasoning to support such a wild accusation. Second, the customization in EVE online is superior to the level of flexibility allowed in Dust514. EVE has been around substantially longer than Dust514 and as a result has more features and toys to play with. To claim that EVE players don't like the flexibility in Dust514 is a tad odd. If anything, EVE players would be upset about the lack of options and customization available in Dust514.
PS: Your tinfoil hat does not protect you from my mind control towers in your neighborhood. Nice try though. 
Medium frame EHP is not medium
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
755
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 12:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
itt a bunch of idiots who don't play eve and don't know what tiericide is or why it's needed.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Operative 2511 Dajli
True Companion Planetary Requisitions
65
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 12:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:What will probably be revealed at fanfest:
-Graphics update like always
-Plans for more EVE connections (most likely how they will "fix" PC)
-Redesign of the way we play the game (better map design, revamped game modes, redefining the vehicle dimension)
-Another "great" idea of theirs for changing the NPE that won't actually do much at all.
What I want them to reveal at fanfest:
-New game modes and/or PVE alpha gameplay
-NPE being their MAIN priority and focus
-To tell us that they're going to shift their focus away from content
-A heavy weapon
What they won't reveal at fanfest:
-How they're scrapping everything so far and are going to do tiercide
-Dust on PS4, PC, or Xbone
-Tons of new content
I want another promo movie and that all the people that screwed up development over these past two years have been sacked.
Lol, the ban hammer got me!
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Altus Nox
HELLRAIZERZ
41
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Posted - 2014.04.28 13:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
^ First, medomai grey, thank you for taking him apart so I didn't have to waste my time.
Second, with regards to those arguing against tiericide and to keep there protostomping abilities. Do you honestly believe that you should have absolute freedom to run top-level gear in any match you want? Is this balanced? Do you feel that new/casual players should not have a place that they can get away from you and just have a good time?
Many people in this thread mentioned the possibility of tiercide removing competition from DUST. If you are so worried about competition, why do many of you run proto gear in public matches where you KNOW most don't run their best stuff? I think I even saw a separate thread on the forums with someone complaining about people not running proto gear because they weren't getting the satisfaction from killing militia gear.
No matter how you try to justify it proto gear is an "I WIN" button in pubs. I have had multiple games (I don't run PRO, basic with the occasional ADV) where my squad gets beaten to the objective in a DOM. We have a good hard fight pushing the enemy out, take the point and the next thing we know is we have the same guys we just had a fun fight with show back up in PROTO. Match over... There is no way to win with a team of blueberries when the other team has proto cloaked scouts shooting you in the back with shotguns and bricked boundless sentinels with a proto logi mowing you down from 25m.
-Nox
-Omnes una manet Nox
(The same night awaits us all)
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1074
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 14:28:00 -
[62] - Quote
MLT/STD only mode.
Uprising 1.8 - Invisible War
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Teilka Darkmist
299
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 14:30:00 -
[63] - Quote
If done as it was in Eve, Teiricide will not kill variety, it will increase it. Mos of the ship in Eve, were barely used untill Tiericide happened, then the devs went through the whole lot and made it so that each ship was good at one or two roles, with the higher tier ships being better at more specialised roles, and not so good at others. To put it in Dust terms , it's making a logi suit great at logistics, repping, supply and such, whilst maybe reducing it's straight up combat capability. Or making a scout fast and hard to scan or see, but really squishy.
I can see how that may be seen as a bad thng to those KdR worshippers who think the should be able to fill more that one role with a high level suit, but we 're not one person armies, we're one person in a mercenary company, a cog in a machine. Part of a team.
Teiricide, done properly with that philosophy in mind, will add variety on the battlefield and increase the social side of the game, which is very limited right now .
In short, don't remove suits, specialise them.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2585
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 14:57:00 -
[64] - Quote
If you think tiericide is bad, you need to check out eve. Its actually quite well done in eve.
Just need to tiericide dropsuits really. Modules and weaponry would still have meta tiers because you trade increased power for increased fitting cost, that is balanced. Proto suits are just isk = power, that is the very definition of pay to win. You tiericide dropsuits and dropsuits alone. |
Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
624
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Posted - 2014.04.28 15:45:00 -
[65] - Quote
Just gonna leave some links on how EVE did it.
PS, if done correctly, it adds great variety AND viability ; severely lowers FotM spamming and suit doctrines.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74234
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/no-brakes-retribution-1.1-balancing/
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
659
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 16:48:00 -
[66] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Tiericide = Remove power creep from game = How can it be bad??
You are just a bunch of protostomping crybabies.
The only proto that I own are mods , weapons and vehicle mods also large turrets .
I don't own a single suit but you better believe that I'm trying to get some .
I just can't understand how players can play a game and hate the fact that you are rewarded for the effort and work that you place in the game , which gives one greater flex-ability and that same is hated by the same players .
Do you not wear prototype in PC ??? How can you complain then ??? PC games are suppose to be the best against the best and those who play in pubs , basically fight to earn the right , also practice and obtain ISK's and SP's and the attention of other corporations to eventually play in PC matches .
Never played in a PC , would love to but I just know that personally I'm not ready yet .
Don't own a prototype suit but believe me when I get some I will wear them in a pub because I'm going to try them out , that's just common sense ... stupid to try and use it in FW and I just don't play FW anyway .
Stop trying to hurt those who don't comply with your beliefs on how this game is suppose to be played . Roles get too much attention then the community asks for those same roles to become less of a factor , weapons get a lot of attention and the community does the same and the common factor is , not addressing the problem and changing that which gave that item a noticeable edge over the others that made that weapon or role OP . That way your not changing the game so much so that it kills the SP's and effort placed in that area by players and also stops the trend of buffs and nerfs .
Coming to an agreement about what makes an item OP , stating facts , finding a middle ground to come to a solution and not mass propagating to get something done that does more harm than good .
It's not the proto stomping that's killing the game ... it's the fact that in pubs , one can start a match with members of the same squad and play a bunch of random players and that squad is familiar with each other but the random players know nothing of each other unless they have the drive to work together and few do .
It's the fact that one can q-cink games at a certain time and play with buddies in pubs and slaughter random players at a whim .
In a public match that should not be the case , now in factional yes but in pubs no .
Factional is closer to PC's so that should be a given .
Pubs are a bigger problem and should host games with only random players on both teams .
You should not play a game with four to five players from the same corp in the same public match but now that is the case on a regular .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
633
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Posted - 2014.04.28 16:55:00 -
[67] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:
Stop trying to hurt those who don't comply with your beliefs on how this game is suppose to be played .
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
659
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 16:58:00 -
[68] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:[quote=Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui]On a side note ... tiericide can not help the new player experience and I just get tired of players using fear and propaganda to drive the direction of the game , they do it with the process of nerfs and buffs and now they just want to flat out ruin the game .
NPE suffers because of the poor set up that currently is in the Academy and the lack of a true matchmaking system .
It's not the prototype gear , it's the lack of knowledge and experience that those who begin to play have and the fact that this game changes direction more than someone driving in a downtown of a major city for the first time .
Teach newer players what's important in the game , how to invest their SP's wisely , strategy and how to create a functional load out . Figure out a better and true matchmaking system . You do not make any actual explanation of why tiercide would not improve NPE. What you do mention is other issues surrounding NPE. And while you are not necessarily wrong regarding these other NPE issues, you have not supported the idea of tiercide not improving NPE.
And yes, I am using fear and propaganda to ruin this game. I even have the power to buff and nerf your imaginary toys at my discretion. This is made possible by anal probes secretly inserted into CCP's employees. Soil yourselves at the very sight of this troll propaganda which is 100% true!
Quote:So, two things I take issue with. The first is the baseless statement that EVE players are demanding respecs. You have provided no evidence or reasoning to support such a wild accusation. Second, the customization in EVE online is superior to the level of flexibility allowed in Dust514. EVE has been around substantially longer than Dust514 and as a result has more features and toys to play with. To claim that EVE players don't like the flexibility in Dust514 is a tad odd. If anything, EVE players would be upset about the lack of options and customization available in Dust514. PS: Your tinfoil hat does not protect you from my mind control towers in your neighborhood. Nice try though.
Can you tell me where I say that EVE players were asking for a refund ???? If you look and see I say that they are the biggest opponents of a refund .
I'm glad that you can admit that you yourself and others like you are trying to ruin and kill this game and boastfully pound your chest about it .
As for correcting me like the player says in a few pieces away , that's also something that's debatable .
I'm not going to waste my time ,all I know that whatever happens will happen .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Void Echo
Total Extinction
2473
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Posted - 2014.04.28 17:02:00 -
[69] - Quote
I highly believe Teircide would do any good at the moment, there is still so very little content that there would still be no unique fits.
Teircide would only be a good thing if we have 2x the content we have now.
Youtube
Closed Beta Vet
CEO: Total Extinction
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
91
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:03:00 -
[70] - Quote
Heres how it would work, as I imagine it:
Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP.
Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example:
To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc.
Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi.
Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better.
Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando.
etc
TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety" |
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R F Gyro
Clones 4u
1333
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:24:00 -
[71] - Quote
I think we need to be a bit careful here. Tiercide worked in Eve because there were so many different ships of each category. Six different tech 1 frigates (smallest ship class) for each of the 4 races. Then tech 2 frigates. And faction frigates. Then destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, capitals and supercapitals.
Off the top of my head (and just with combat ships)...
6 x tech 1 frigates
2 x tech 1 destroyers
5 x tech 1 cruisers
3 x tech 1 battlecruisers
3 x tech 1 battleships
= 19 x 4 races = 76 tech 1 empire warships
Then add...
6 x tech 2 frigates
1 x tech 2 destroyer
6 x tech 2 cruisers
2 x tech 2 battlecruisers
1 x tech 2 battleship
= 16 x 4 races = 64 tech 2 empire warships
We're at 140 ships already. Now add tech 3 cruisers, pirate faction ships, navy faction ships, captials, super capitals and non-combat ships.
With all that variety and progression you really don't need five different tiers of tech 1 frigate. Tiercide works in Eve.
Dust has nothing like that.
In Eve, you go roaming in a (tiercided) tech 1 cruiser and (assuming you don't get ganked by a blob or a gate camp) you'll run into a tech 2 heavy assault cruiser which will murder you. Go roaming in that tech 2 cruiser and you'll get murdered by a tech 3 cruiser.
Why is this different to basic/advanced/prototype?
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9852
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:30:00 -
[72] - Quote
Thats a bloody dangerous concept Catmerc..... will either make the game better, or destroy all variation.
"Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!"
-Dagger Two
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
93
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:53:00 -
[73] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:I think we need to be a bit careful here. Tiercide worked in Eve because there were so many different ships of each category. Six different tech 1 frigates (smallest ship class) for each of the 4 races. Then tech 2 frigates. And faction frigates. Then destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, capitals and supercapitals.
Off the top of my head (and just with combat ships)...
6 x tech 1 frigates
2 x tech 1 destroyers
5 x tech 1 cruisers
3 x tech 1 battlecruisers
3 x tech 1 battleships
= 19 x 4 races = 76 tech 1 empire warships
Then add...
6 x tech 2 frigates
1 x tech 2 destroyer
6 x tech 2 cruisers
2 x tech 2 battlecruisers
1 x tech 2 battleship
= 16 x 4 races = 64 tech 2 empire warships
We're at 140 ships already. Now add tech 3 cruisers, pirate faction ships, navy faction ships, captials, super capitals and non-combat ships.
With all that variety and progression you really don't need five different tiers of tech 1 frigate. Tiercide works in Eve.
Dust has nothing like that.
In Eve, you go roaming in a (tiercided) tech 1 cruiser and (assuming you don't get ganked by a blob or a gate camp) you'll run into a tech 2 heavy assault cruiser which will murder you. Go roaming in that tech 2 cruiser and you'll get murdered by a tech 3 cruiser.
Why is this different to basic/advanced/prototype?
Having only 1 suit per role instead of 3 gives CCP time to create new suit roles or work on other things.
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Omega Black Zero
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
in this thread, Dust players pretending they know what EVE players think |
Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
512
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 22:33:00 -
[75] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Thats a bloody dangerous concept Catmerc..... will either make the game better, or destroy all variation.
"My suit is awesome and your suit sucks" is not variation, that's just bullying. If you are talking about high choice in different loadouts then how can everyone having the equivalent of a proto suit not improve variation? More players are now able to consider more slot layouts.
"Variation" is a strawman argument used by vested interests in keeping imbalance in the game. |
Rusty Shallows
Caldari State
1702
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:51:00 -
[76] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:
Stop trying to hurt those who don't comply with your beliefs on how this game is suppose to be played .
That's exactly what protostomping is doing.
Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting.
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
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Selinate deux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 22:51:00 -
[77] - Quote
Soooo much protobear QQ. |
Delanus Turgias
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
456
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 22:52:00 -
[78] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:What will probably be revealed at fanfest:
-Graphics update like always
-Plans for more EVE connections (most likely how they will "fix" PC)
-Redesign of the way we play the game (better map design, revamped game modes, redefining the vehicle dimension)
-Another "great" idea of theirs for changing the NPE that won't actually do much at all.
What I want them to reveal at fanfest:
-New game modes and/or PVE alpha gameplay
-NPE being their MAIN priority and focus
-To tell us that they're going to shift their focus away from content
-A heavy weapon
What they won't reveal at fanfest:
-How they're scrapping everything so far and are going to do tiercide
-Dust on PS4, PC, or Xbone
-Tons of new content
Just remember, kids. Dust will never be on Xboner or any M$ consoles, because M$ can't play nice with cross-platform integration.
Closed Beta Vet since May 2012
The Laser Rifle- Reach Out And Burn Slaves
Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
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Phazoid
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
296
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:34:00 -
[79] - Quote
ok i have a doubt, for example i use mostly a scout c1 with militia everything and costs 8k isk, if tiercide happens, there would be only 1 scout suit for every race? only one tier?, because isk price for the dropsuit would be somewhere between ADV and proto, can someone clarify that for me?
One body, two bodies, three and four. One more makes the dragon roar... We the players are what's wrong with dust.
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
5081
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
What, that's a solution?
Why not just have player skill be the biggest factor rather than how much ISK you can spend?
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2602
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Posted - 2014.04.29 00:23:00 -
[81] - Quote
Phazoid wrote:ok i have a doubt, for example i use mostly a scout c1 with militia everything and costs 8k isk, if tiercide happens, there would be only 1 scout suit for every race? only one tier?, because isk price for the dropsuit would be somewhere between ADV and proto, can someone clarify that for me?
Basic light would be pretty cheap while scout would be more expensive. The frames themselves would be relatively cheap while the modules front most of the cost.
Ideally you could run a Light frame suit with basic modules for around 10-15k isk or run a scout with full proto modules, weapon, equipment, etc and expect to pay around 200k for that fit.
power differential between those two fits would be significantly lower than a pro cal scout vs your MLT cal scout though. |
Doctor Day
EoN Minmatar
151
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:What will probably be revealed at fanfest:
-Graphics update like always
-Plans for more EVE connections (most likely how they will "fix" PC)
-Redesign of the way we play the game (better map design, revamped game modes, redefining the vehicle dimension)
-Another "great" idea of theirs for changing the NPE that won't actually do much at all.
What I want them to reveal at fanfest:
-New game modes and/or PVE alpha gameplay
-NPE being their MAIN priority and focus
-To tell us that they're going to shift their focus away from content
-A heavy weapon
What they won't reveal at fanfest:
-How they're scrapping everything so far and are going to do tiercide
-Dust on PS4, PC, or Xbone
-Tons of new content
Dumb ass,the reason it isnt going to be on xbone is becaue Microsoft wants them to run there **** on there server
They already asked to do it on Xbox 360 but Microsoft said no to letting them have there own server or something like that
And i guess they want to make Dust 514 a console exlusive
Obvious troll is Obvious
TROLOLOLOLOL HEAR MY MIGHTY TROLOLOLOL
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