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Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 235	Posted - 2014.04.25 18:47:00 - [1] - Quote Here's another video about Cloaking done by Judge. Still no comment, but judge it for yourself. Also, I hope you don't mind me posting these videos on the forums Judge. I like posting these to get player feedback and bring up discussion which in my opinion is a great way to get multiple opinions and insights. The first Mover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj8vXTqgw1M
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8096	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:07:00 - [2] - Quote It's a very neutral perspective on Judge's part. It's really difficult to say with certainty now whether the cloak makes you hard to see or easy to see but we can definitely say with certainty that the glitch mentioned and demonstrated by Judge needs to be addressed. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
P14GU3 The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 594	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:13:00 - [3] - Quote I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
burning powers Algintal Core Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:19:00 - [4] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub This is a toupee fallacy. So this argument is completely invalid and does not provide any evidence to provide his claim.
P14GU3 The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 594	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:21:00 - [5] - Quote burning powers wrote: P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub This is a toupee fallacy. So this argument is completely invalid and does not provide any evidence to provide his claim. Right. Clearly no shots were being fired before he de-cloaked Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
Mary Overdrive Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:23:00 - [6] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Here's another video about Cloaking done by Judge. Still no comment, but judge it for yourself. Also, I hope you don't mind me posting these videos on the forums Judge. I like posting these to get player feedback and bring up discussion which in my opinion is a great way to get multiple opinions and insights. The First Mover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj8vXTqgw1M Recap for the previous video and discussion can be found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156109 totally op
burning powers Algintal Core Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:27:00 - [7] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: burning powers wrote: P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub This is a toupee fallacy. So this argument is completely invalid and does not provide any evidence to provide his claim. Right. Clearly no shots were being fired before he de-cloaked This guy. Do you know what toupee fallacy means?
Hecarim Van Hohen 1203	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:32:00 - [8] - Quote All toup+¬es look fake; I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake. "Now I am become Dev, the locker of threads." -CCP Logibro t¢«
burning powers Algintal Core Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:37:00 - [9] - Quote Hecarim Van Hohen wrote: All toup+¬es look fake; I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake. the arguer claims that they can always recongnize when something is present. So its likely a fallacy because the arguer is not aware of all of the times that he/she did not recognize it Which fits the Toupee fallacy.
Mary Overdrive Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:39:00 - [10] - Quote burning powers wrote: Hecarim Van Hohen wrote: All toup+¬es look fake; I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake. the arguer claims that they can always recongnize when something is present. So its likely a fallacy because the arguer is not aware of all of the times that he/she did not recognize it Which fits the Toupee fallacy. Well it is a Fallacy because he does not acknowledge it as a perception and give it argument as "perfect"... So the perception of perfect is silly. But who cares. The guy thinks he is hot ** and his ** don't stink. let it go boys. Edit: Talking bout P14GU3 P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen.

Burntface man112 Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 145	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:44:00 - [11] - Quote good video, totally disclaims cloaking being only a stealth tool only.
Burntface man112 Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 145	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:45:00 - [12] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub Scared because your cloaking is going to get nerf? you should be.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8989	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:46:00 - [13] - Quote Don't you just love it when a simple piece of a equipment gives you a 400 damage advantage over the enemy? Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER, it's a disgusting mechanic. Cloaking should be kept strictly for traversing the map and gathering intel, and maybe even getting to a good flank spot, but never give you an advantage on top of what a flank would give you. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8098	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:48:00 - [14] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub So you can always spot a shimmer when you can? This is another example of the Toupee Fallacy. The Toupee Fallacy can be summed up by the following phrase: "All toupees look fake; I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake". Source: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy So if you saw a convincing one you wouldn't be able to see that it's a fake toupee. The same applies to the cloak shimmer. The shimmer is only apparent to you as long as you catch it which implies there is also potentially equally many moments when you are unable to see a cloak shimmer especially given how the human eye functions. Believe it or not, your eyes and mind play tricks on you. I have studied quite a bit on human anatomy so I know a few things about this. The mind and eyes work together to filter out parts of the world you see that the mind thinks is irrelevant to you. Here is a little trick you can do to confirm this. You can do this at home on your free time. Look at your monitor and set it so that you have a white background. Cover one eye and make a pin-size hole with your index and your thumb to look through while facing the monitor's white background. Now shake that pin-size hole up and down. Notice anything odd emerging? Perhaps you're seeing black lines that look like veins or capillaries on the white background. Believe it or not, those really are your veins you're seeing. In the human eye, the veins cut in front of the light receptors of the retina of your eye (the cylinders and cones). As light passes through the veins it creates a shadow on the recepters. The mind knows this and considers the veins as irrelevant to what the eye is really trying to see. So the mind filters out the shadows produced by the veins by overlaying parts of the scenery that you see over those shadows to compensate. This also explains why you have a blind spot on both of your eyes which can cause you to miss things like the shimmer of a cloak. Think about it. For every moment you spot a shimmer, there is also an equal (if not greater) number of moments when you didn't see the shimmer. Thus the toupee fallacy comes to mind when someone says "I could see the shimmer just fine". Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Hecarim Van Hohen 1204	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:49:00 - [15] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub Guys, how did you miss this "Now I am become Dev, the locker of threads." -CCP Logibro t¢«
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 909	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:51:00 - [16] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub So you can always spot a shimmer when you can? This is another example of the Toupee Fallacy. The Toupee Fallacy can be summed up by the following phrase: "All toupees look fake; I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake". Source: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy So if you saw a convincing one you wouldn't be able to see that it's a fake toupee. The same applies to the cloak shimmer. The shimmer is only apparent to you as long as you catch it which implies there is also potentially equally many moments when you are unable to see a cloak shimmer especially given how the human eye functions. Believe it or not, your eyes and mind play tricks on you. I have studied quite a bit on human anatomy so I know a few things about this. The mind and eyes work together to filter out parts of the world you see that the mind thinks is irrelevant to you. Here is a little trick you can do to confirm this. You can do this at home on your free time. Look at your monitor and set it so that you have a white background. Cover one eye and make a pin-size hole with your index and your thumb to look through while facing the monitor's white background. Now shake that pin-size hole up and down. Notice anything odd emerging? Perhaps you're seeing black lines that look like veins or capillaries on the white background. Believe it or not, those really are your veins you're seeing. In the human eye, the veins cut in front of the light receptors of the retina of your eye (the cylinders and cones). As light passes through the veins it creates a shadow on the recepters. The mind knows this and considers the veins as irrelevant to what the eye is really trying to see. So the mind filters out the shadows produced by the veins by overlaying parts of the scenery that you see over those shadows to compensate. This also explains why you have a blind spot on both of your eyes which can cause you to miss things like the shimmer of a cloak. Think about it. For every moment you spot a shimmer, there is also an equal (if not greater) number of moments when you didn't see the shimmer. Thus the toupee fallacy comes to mind when someone says "I could see the shimmer just fine". +1 for a rarity on these forums, sound logical argument. Also, even though from time to time I disagree with Judge, I do appreciate the time/effort he makes in uncovering mechanics and their shortcomings. Seriously Judge, you have a vote from me for CSM should you want to run. Fixing swarms
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 236	Posted - 2014.04.25 19:53:00 - [17] - Quote Hecarim Van Hohen wrote: P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub Guys, how did you miss this I think your kinda digging yourself a hole buddy. You should stop.
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 629	Posted - 2014.04.25 20:33:00 - [18] - Quote Great. Now I can't NOT see my glasses. Thanks Judge, for making another good Youtube video. Medium frame EHP is not medium
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3644	Posted - 2014.04.25 20:46:00 - [19] - Quote I'd just like to thank Judge for making intelligent video breakdowns. Without him to think for you people, you'd all be saying incredibly stupid things right now and I'd have to look at it every day.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8100	Posted - 2014.04.25 20:48:00 - [20] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I'd just like to thank Judge for making intelligent video breakdowns. Without him to think for you people, you'd all be saying incredibly stupid things right now and I'd have to look at it every day. I remember when people trolled Judge for posting facts about the swarm launchers and redline rails. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8100	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:02:00 - [21] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: He was trolling you. You were trolled. And you gave the grandest, most time-wasting response possible. Christ man, seriously. If that was a troll, that was a ** poor job. He should lernz2trol. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor**
P14GU3 The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 596	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:07:00 - [22] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: He was trolling you. You were trolled. And you gave the grandest, most time-wasting response possible. Christ man, seriously. If that was a troll, that was a **** poor job. He should lernz2trol. Poor job.. that worked Edit: read my previous posts about cloaks... Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1261	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:19:00 - [23] - Quote Like my nose, I don't see the point of this video. Honestly, aside from "firing while cloaked is a thing and it is my opinion it should change" I don't see a reason to make this video. Every game ever that has some kind of stealth system give first attack/mover advantage; many even give 'backstab' bonuses. In my opinion, Judge is just stating the obvious here that no one should really be surprised to hear; "being able to get a 'flank'/surprise attack in most every situation is powerful." He might as well have said "only having 10 HP makes it difficult to survive in this game." Judge's videos are always entertaining and the level of dedication to the community is commendable but if I may ask Judge: "Why did you make this video if not for the 'Cloaked Fire' or to reiterate the Toupee Fallacy from the previous video?" "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2017	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:25:00 - [24] - Quote I made the video to show that even a frontal attack is hard to see, and to show the bug from cloaked. I wanted to give people reference material so discussion keeps on track and on the facts rather than neoplasm just making things up Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Autoaim Bot514 The Hetairoi 82	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:26:00 - [25] - Quote This is exactly what I told all the scrubs way back when it was introduced, and all my other accounts got banned for it.
Autoaim Bot514 The Hetairoi 82	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:27:00 - [26] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Like my nose, I don't see the point of this video. Honestly, aside from "firing while cloaked is a thing and it is my opinion it should change" I don't see a reason to make this video. Every game ever that has some kind of stealth system give first attack/mover advantage; many even give 'backstab' bonuses. In my opinion, Judge is just stating the obvious here that no one should really be surprised to hear; "being able to get a 'flank'/surprise attack in most every situation is powerful." He might as well have said "only having 10 HP makes it difficult to survive in this game." Judge's videos are always entertaining and the level of dedication to the community is commendable but if I may ask Judge: "Why did you make this video if not for the 'Cloaked Fire' or to reiterate the Toupee Fallacy from the previous video?" Cloak in this game makes it incredibly easy though. Add a shotgun and armor brick gko and its godmode.
MINA Longstrike 562	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:28:00 - [27] - Quote Stuff about eyes and how they aren't perfect... it's a crappy video but yeah Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Youknowutimsayin Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 205	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:33:00 - [28] - Quote I didn't know you were into that kind of thing, Judge.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8100	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:37:00 - [29] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: He was trolling you. You were trolled. And you gave the grandest, most time-wasting response possible. Christ man, seriously. If that was a troll, that was a ** poor job. He should lernz2trol. Poor job.. that worked Edit: read my previous posts about cloaks... Yup... definitely my batteries are dead. My troll radar didn't go off. I should have bought Duracell. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor**
NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 377	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:52:00 - [30] - Quote This video was OK, most of them I don't agree with any of your view points. You need to update your video with you watching people decloak and fire, and movement while cloaked. Your friends with some of the youtubers you can get two video feeds and add them to your video. Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!

Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 139	Posted - 2014.04.25 21:56:00 - [31] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: This video was OK, most of them I don't agree with any of your view points. You need to update your video with you watching people decloak and fire, and movement while cloaked. Your friends with some of the youtubers you can get two video feeds and add them to your video. That would be good to show GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥ GÇò Frank Zappa
Guiltless D667 21	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:04:00 - [32] - Quote I like Judges vids but he kinda hyperfocues too much on details and doesn't see everything else. A Strange Game.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 913	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:07:00 - [33] - Quote Guiltless D667 wrote: I like Judges vids but he kinda hyperfocues too much on details and doesn't see everything else. Let me tell you why this comment is wrong. You assert that judge is missing something, but you do not go over what it is and in doing so your entire statement is without merit and definitely doesn't promote any type of discussion. Fixing swarms
Guiltless D667 21	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:14:00 - [34] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Guiltless D667 wrote: I like Judges vids but he kinda hyperfocues too much on details and doesn't see everything else. Let me tell you why this comment is wrong. You assert that judge is missing something, but you do not go over what it is and in doing so your entire statement is without merit and definitely doesn't promote any type of discussion. when it comes to solutions he doesnt see everything else, i should have said that my mistake. A Strange Game.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 916	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:20:00 - [35] - Quote Guiltless D667 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Guiltless D667 wrote: I like Judges vids but he kinda hyperfocues too much on details and doesn't see everything else. Let me tell you why this comment is wrong. You assert that judge is missing something, but you do not go over what it is and in doing so your entire statement is without merit and definitely doesn't promote any type of discussion. when it comes to solutions he doesnt see everything else, i should have said that my mistake. Ok then do you mind me asking what solutions? In the video he does not propose any solutions, he merely shows the operation of the cloak, and how you can fire 2 shots from a shotgun before most humans can react with the first still under cloak. He also shows how the cloak allows you to easily assault from positions that would be unrealistic without it. I only see him pointing out HOW it operates, not suggesting outcomes of balancing or even saying whether it requires balancing. The only actual conclusion I find he does make is that when people say "Getgud" or "learn2see scrub" it sounds like a response from fear because that person knows it is OP. Fixing swarms
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 237	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:24:00 - [36] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Like my nose, I don't see the point of this video. Honestly, aside from "firing while cloaked is a thing and it is my opinion it should change" I don't see a reason to make this video. Every game ever that has some kind of stealth system give first attack/mover advantage; many even give 'backstab' bonuses. In my opinion, Judge is just stating the obvious here that no one should really be surprised to hear; "being able to get a 'flank'/surprise attack in most every situation is powerful." He might as well have said "only having 10 HP makes it difficult to survive in this game." Judge's videos are always entertaining and the level of dedication to the community is commendable but if I may ask Judge: "Why did you make this video if not for the 'Cloaked Fire' or to reiterate the Toupee Fallacy from the previous video?" I think the purpose of the video is not to condemn cloaking but to bring up the attention how people say people have poor awareness but in his video he shows how that not true at all. The whole section revolving around reaction time is to show how players cannot react to cloaking because of the brains reaction time. So it boils down to anticipation which is unreliable in battlefield situations given how there are too many variables in open combat to properly anticipated a cloaked scout (enemy firing at your position, being engaged by more than one enemy, friendly fire causing distortion, having a role for a different counter such as anti vehicle fits, ect.) So Judge's purpose in the video is to understand why a large player bases in Dust have voiced so much concerns revolving around the topic of "is cloaking easy to see" and "is it only a stealth tool" in the video he clearly shows how its not easy to see because the brains reaction time cannot react to a cloak in close quarters combat. Also proving that cloak fields are effective as a aggressive assault tool as well as sneaking. So I hope this helps you understand what judge's purpose for creating such a video. And note that the video is not to decide if its balanced or not; but to understand if the valid argument of whether cloaking is either of these things which is yes to both.
Sarus Rambo Direct Action Resources 145	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:12:00 - [37] - Quote Lets break down what scouts have that other suits don't (particularly medium suits): Best scanning precision Best scan profile Best speed Best use of Cloak Best hitbox *Honorable mentions: Second highest number of Equipment slots Some of the highest PG and CPU What scouts give up for this: Less HP Is this really balanced? For real? This sums up 75% of the forum posts.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3645	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:12:00 - [38] - Quote Guiltless D667 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Guiltless D667 wrote: I like Judges vids but he kinda hyperfocues too much on details and doesn't see everything else. Let me tell you why this comment is wrong. You assert that judge is missing something, but you do not go over what it is and in doing so your entire statement is without merit and definitely doesn't promote any type of discussion. when it comes to solutions he doesnt see everything else, i should have said that my mistake. He shows the situation as it is, and explains why it is the way it is. It is done in this way so as to encourage the viewer to actually use their own brain and reach the correct conclusion. Then again, some people reject the very concept of thinking. If I might say so, your thoughts surrounding Judge seem to more accurately reflex Pyrex.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 238	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:22:00 - [39] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Guiltless D667 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Guiltless D667 wrote: I like Judges vids but he kinda hyperfocues too much on details and doesn't see everything else. Let me tell you why this comment is wrong. You assert that judge is missing something, but you do not go over what it is and in doing so your entire statement is without merit and definitely doesn't promote any type of discussion. when it comes to solutions he doesnt see everything else, i should have said that my mistake. He shows the situation as it is, and explains why it is the way it is. It is done in this way so as to encourage the viewer to actually use their own brain and reach the correct conclusion. Then again, some people reject the very concept of thinking. If I might say so, your thoughts surrounding Judge seem to more accurately reflect Pyrex who is much more well known for saying "this is broken, flip a table screw you all". Well I think he show the situation as it is, and explains it because observing is more powerful a tool than coming up with solutions. One solution could mean another break in game balance. We have had this repeat in Dusts history were something is re-balanced to fit the needs of one play styles needs but accidentally broke something else. So solutions are tricky, which is better to simply make an observation video and have player who observe come up with their own decision wither it needs to be re-balanced again and come up with their own solutions. Think of it more as it community awareness to help bring other people to bring in there own ideas and arguments wither something should be addressed or not.
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4034	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:25:00 - [40] - Quote LOL so Judge is still making some merc's panties wet by his accent eh? OK, other side of the coin, you are to check your surroundings and know that when hacking an objective, ANYBODY can sneak up on you unseen cloak or not and get damage points in before you have a time to react. That is the risk you take when hacking a supply depot or a NULL cannon. So that's a very poor example for the "getting a shot off before decloaked" problem. Another side of the coin, its the mechanics of war. Fairness is pretty much the last bullet point on the list, if not at all. If the mercenary was moving around, as he should have been, while hacking, his chance of survival are increased by small percentage. That's still worth it compared to just standing there and hacking, allowing any enemy to get a decent amount of damage on you before you react. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?

Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 238	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:29:00 - [41] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: LOL so Judge is still making some merc's panties wet by his accent eh? OK, other side of the coin, you are to check your surroundings and know that when hacking an objective, ANYBODY can sneak up on you unseen cloak or not and get damage points in before you have a time to react. That is the risk you take when hacking a supply depot or a NULL cannon. So that's a very poor example for the "getting a shot off before decloaked" problem. Another side of the coin, its the mechanics of war. Fairness is pretty much the last bullet point on the list, if not at all. If the mercenary was moving around, as he should have been, while hacking, his chance of survival are increased by small percentage. That's still worth it compared to just standing there and hacking, allowing any enemy to get a decent amount of damage on you before you react. Well first off the first test, the shooting a guy while he hack a supply depot was to test one thing. Do you de-cloak on the first fire or after the first fire? and secondly you are right about one things. if he had been moving around his chances may have increased but would that save him? hard to say because no data was collect in those events. So that doesn't help at all. In the end his video provided many points that are solid. Edit: oh it the matter of fairness was never what the topic was about. The topic was focused on can players react to close quarters engagements to cloaked scouts? and Can they be seen easily? Both of which he provided a pretty compelling amount of evidence. But does that make it balance? that for you to decide.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 919	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:38:00 - [42] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: LOL so Judge is still making some merc's panties wet by his accent eh? OK, other side of the coin, you are to check your surroundings and know that when hacking an objective, ANYBODY can sneak up on you unseen cloak or not and get damage points in before you have a time to react. That is the risk you take when hacking a supply depot or a NULL cannon. So that's a very poor example for the "getting a shot off before decloaked" problem. Another side of the coin, its the mechanics of war. Fairness is pretty much the last bullet point on the list, if not at all. If the mercenary was moving around, as he should have been, while hacking, his chance of survival are increased by small percentage. That's still worth it compared to just standing there and hacking, allowing any enemy to get a decent amount of damage on you before you react. At no point in this response did you address any point raised by Judge. He admits that the dude was hacking, but uses the example to show that he can get 1.5 shots of before he even uncloaks (as also observed by someone watching). This means he used the example as a measure of how long someone has to react after getting cloak-shotgunned (which was 0.25 seconds) So it is an AWESOME example. So you try to dismiss his video, and all of the points he brings up with your faulty reasoning? Ok, just don't try to spread this manure all over the forums like it is a legitimate line of reasoning. Fixing swarms
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4034	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:50:00 - [43] - Quote I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
P14GU3 The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 599	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:59:00 - [44] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. Out of that whole video, you chose to make a point about the ONE guy standing still hacking a depot. What about the others? What about the guys who "saw" him before he attacked and still got beat? Bad gun-game? That would be plausible if they were actually shooting near him in the first place, but they didnt know where he was, even after they "saw" him Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
Seymor Krelborn L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 2154	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:59:00 - [45] - Quote Sarus Rambo wrote: Lets break down what scouts have that other suits don't (particularly medium suits): Best scanning precision Best scan profile Best speed Best use of Cloak Best hitbox *Honorable mentions: Second highest number of Equipment slots Some of the highest PG and CPU What scouts give up for this: Less HP Is this really balanced? For real? I agree scouts right now have way to much advantage....I would however question how much of a disadvantage less hp is give some scouts have upwards of 600 hp. while that may be less than some suits it certainly is a lot more than many including what I run in my minmitar dren logi suit... this game makes me sad....
Tectonic Fusion 1575	Posted - 2014.04.26 00:12:00 - [46] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: P14GU3 wrote: I could see you shimmering perfectly on your screen. Lerntueizscrub So you can always spot a shimmer when you can? This is another example of the Toupee Fallacy. The Toupee Fallacy can be summed up by the following phrase: "All toupees look fake; I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake". Source: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy So if you saw a convincing one you wouldn't be able to see that it's a fake toupee. The same applies to the cloak shimmer. The shimmer is only apparent to you as long as you catch it which implies there is also potentially equally many moments when you are unable to see a cloak shimmer especially given how the human eye functions. Believe it or not, your eyes and mind play tricks on you. I have studied quite a bit on human anatomy so I know a few things about this. The mind and eyes work together to filter out parts of the world you see that the mind thinks is irrelevant to you. Here is a little trick you can do to confirm this. You can do this at home on your free time. Look at your monitor and set it so that you have a white background. Cover one eye and make a pin-size hole with your index and your thumb to look through while facing the monitor's white background. Now shake that pin-size hole up and down. Notice anything odd emerging? Perhaps you're seeing black lines that look like veins or capillaries on the white background. Believe it or not, those really are your veins you're seeing. In the human eye, the veins cut in front of the light receptors of the retina of your eye (the cylinders and cones). As light passes through the veins it creates a shadow on the recepters. The mind knows this and considers the veins as irrelevant to what the eye is really trying to see. So the mind filters out the shadows produced by the veins by overlaying parts of the scenery that you see over those shadows to compensate. This also explains why you have a blind spot on both of your eyes which can cause you to miss things like the shimmer of a cloak. Think about it. For every moment you spot a shimmer, there is also an equal (if not greater) number of moments when you didn't see the shimmer. Thus the toupee fallacy comes to mind when someone says "I could see the shimmer just fine". I can always spot a shimmer on the screen. I even react to the smoke that randomly appears and I aim at it just in case it's a cloaked scout. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4034	Posted - 2014.04.26 00:14:00 - [47] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: Michael Arck wrote: I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. Out of that whole video, you chose to make a point about the ONE guy standing still hacking a depot. What about the others? What about the guys who "saw" him before he attacked and still got beat? Bad gun-game? That would be plausible if they were actually shooting near him in the first place, but they didnt know where he was, even after they "saw" him Yes I did. I question the validity of the test which also drives me to question the validity of the points he's making since he used such an "open ended" test to drive some of his cloak points home. There are too many variables that are involved. The truth is, anybody else made that video with the same test, you guys would question the validity of the entire video because of variables I mentioned. But because it's Judge, nothing is said. You're really not making any sense and its quite easy to understand why I feel the way I feel. Anyone with an open mind, would understand what I'm saying here. Alas, when it comes to Judge video threads, if you're not on the cheerleading bandwagon folks get bent out of shape about your opinions. That's just the plain, uncut truth. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
P14GU3 The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 599	Posted - 2014.04.26 00:23:00 - [48] - Quote Validity of the test? Are you saying he paid the opposition to act as if they couldn't see him? Did he doctor the footage to show shots being fired before he decloaked? Are you guys that hell bent on keeping your cloak as is, that you would accuse a well known video maker of doctoring his footage to get his point across? I wouldnt even accuse pyrex of that.. Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
Archer Yorcot S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2014.04.26 00:35:00 - [49] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: LOL so Judge is still making some merc's panties wet by his accent eh? OK, other side of the coin, you are to check your surroundings and know that when hacking an objective, ANYBODY can sneak up on you unseen cloak or not and get damage points in before you have a time to react. That is the risk you take when hacking a supply depot or a NULL cannon. So that's a very poor example for the "getting a shot off before decloaked" problem. Another side of the coin, its the mechanics of war. Fairness is pretty much the last bullet point on the list, if not at all. If the mercenary was moving around, as he should have been, while hacking, his chance of survival are increased by small percentage. That's still worth it compared to just standing there and hacking, allowing any enemy to get a decent amount of damage on you before you react. 1. The purpose of that clip was to demonstrate that you can still fire while cloaked. Period. The fact that his opponent was occupied with hacking a supply depot does nothing to disprove the existence of this broken game mechanic. Judge would have been able to fire his weapon while invisible regardless of what his opponent was doing. 2. The reason people side with Judge is because he provides concrete evidence for his views. He supports his statements with math, frame by frame video analysis, and goes to great lengths to examine the issue from multiple sides. You do none of the above. Therefore, people don't side with you. They recognize your comments for what they are GÇô willfully ignorant diatribes. This forum signature is OP.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 924	Posted - 2014.04.26 01:40:00 - [50] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. So you didn't actually read what I said did you? Just admit it. *The hacker example is purely about amount of shots while cloaked.* Read that like 50 times until you understand it. It has nothing to do with the sneaking aspect, or the stealth while moving, or frontal assault, or anything else. Get it through your head. Fixing swarms

Bormir1r Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 398	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:08:00 - [51] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Here's another video about Cloaking done by Judge. Still no comment, but judge it for yourself. Also, I hope you don't mind me posting these videos on the forums Judge. I like posting these to get player feedback and bring up discussion which in my opinion is a great way to get multiple opinions and insights. The First Mover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj8vXTqgw1M Recap for the previous video and discussion can be found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156109 This is IMO a much better video that explicitly explains the problem. However once CCP fixes the bug, people should not complain about the "first move" after decloaking, because by then, it has become a proper advantage to the scout. "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. Oh wait, mk.0 Scouts do it... Oops.
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4035	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:18:00 - [52] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Michael Arck wrote: I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. So you didn't actually read what I said did you? Just admit it. *The hacker example is purely about amount of shots while cloaked.* Read that like 50 times until you understand it. It has nothing to do with the sneaking aspect, or the stealth while moving, or frontal assault, or anything else. Get it through your head. Are you that narrow minded? The hacker could not see the scout period because he was hacking a suppy depot. Duh! Cloak or uncloaked, the scout getting a shot before he decloaks doesn't make a difference!! The same thing would happen if I blasted him with my HMG. It is implied that the scout who gets a shot off before decloaking puts the scout at a advantage and the mercenary at a disadvantage BUUUUUT....(wait for it!) If the mercenary has seen the scout cloaked, moving with a shimmer, then IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF THE SCOUT GOT THE SHOT OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING OR NOT!!!!!!! If you don't see ANYBODY, you will be at a disadvantage!!!! So what is the point of the argument??? Show me somebody who is AWARE of the scout's presence. Show me that video and make your test from there. NO YOU CAN"T BECAUSE IT WOULD PROVE HIS TEST TO BE INADEQUATE SINCE THE MERC IS AWARE WHICH WOULD NEGATE HIS ARGUMENT ABOUT THE SHOT BEING LET OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING BECAUSE THAT MERC WOULD BE FIRING UPON THE SCOUT BEFORE HE EVEN SHOOTS!! If you are aware it wouldn't even matter!!!! WOW! Smh. You are not thinking. You just listen to what he says and what he shows and you automatically agree without considering the variables. The test proves nothing and is highly inadequate as a point of discussion. I have provided another side of the coin that you and many others ignore. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
ugg reset Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 574	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:19:00 - [53] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER, it's a disgusting mechanic. Cloaking should be kept strictly for traversing the map and gathering intel, and maybe even getting to a good flank spot, but never to give you an advantage on top of what a flank would give you. Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had. this post makes me want to skill into the laser rifle just so I can watch you chase it around the map. "Cloaks should never be used for assaults..." says you. I see "real" assaults, logis and even commandos use cloaks. what's their role? "Cloaking should be kept strictly for bla bla bla..."this makes me cringe when i read this, you're just telling people how to play the "right way" while CCP gives tons of creative freedom (the most in any online fps ive ever played) to play how we want. "Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had" OK, you're not wrong on this point but I will say that you're forgetting the most powerful tool in Dust. teamwork. not even trolling here. a Passive scanning fit Cal scout or active Gal logi can easily see through most cloaks. And the best part: All the information is shared between squad mates. Thr33 is the magic number.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 240	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:32:00 - [54] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. Well first off you understand its a test. But do you understand what the test is about? when the opponent was hacking the supply depot, it was not about wither the opponent could survive but if you de-cloak before you fire your first shot or after. And the facts remain this... You de-cloak after you shot not before which was not how it was designed as was posted in dev blog that de-cloaking occurs when the weapons swap occurs not firing the weapon. Cloaking works as follows: The cloak field is a piece of equipment. When the cloak field is selected, the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. Once activated, the cortex remains on-screen. Switching to any other equipment, weapon or throwing a grenade will deactivate the cloak. The amount of cloak "shimmer" is increased as you move. When standing still you will be invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. While cloaked, you will have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. When in use, the cloak fieldGÇÖs energy depletes slowly over time. Cloak can be manually deactivated by pressing fire or switching to a different piece of equipment or a weapon. Once deactivated or the cloak field runs out of energy it will start to recharge. You cannot reactivate the cloak field unless you have at least 50% charge. You can only fit one cloak field at a time. You do not decloak when hacking an objective or vehicle. You do not decloak when jumping or falling. If shot while cloaked, hit VFX will still be displayed. When cloaking and decloaking noticeable VFX are played. source http://dust514.com/news/2014/03/equipment-uprising-1.8/ secondly. it is not a poor test because you misinterpreted what the test was about.
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4035	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:44:00 - [55] - Quote You're not listening to me man and its right there for you to re-read. I know what the test is about. It's obvious that I know in the post I have up there prior to this one. Why my story doesn't change. If you see the scout...repeat this with me now...if you see the scout, a scout shooting first before de-cloaking doesn't even matter. You see the scout!!!! LOL I don't know how else to say that to you. Awareness is key. Awareness nullifies the fact that the scout can shoot before decloaking One more time...say this with me now... Awareness nullfiies the fact that the scout can shoot before decloaking. It won't matter since you would have the drop on the scout instead of the scout having the drop on you. Do you understand that? Seriously I don't you think you do. All you hear is Michael Arck doesn't like Judge's video. Michael Arck doesn't know what he's talking about. That's all you reading in my posts and that's all you hear. Its like talking to a brick wall here. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 240	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:46:00 - [56] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER, it's a disgusting mechanic. Cloaking should be kept strictly for traversing the map and gathering intel, and maybe even getting to a good flank spot, but never to give you an advantage on top of what a flank would give you. Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had. this post makes me want to skill into the laser rifle just so I can watch you chase it around the map. "Cloaks should never be used for assaults..." says you. I see "real" assaults, logis and even commandos use cloaks. what's their role? "Cloaking should be kept strictly for bla bla bla..."this makes me cringe when i read this, you're just telling people how to play the "right way" while CCP gives tons of creative freedom (the most in any online fps ive ever played) to play how we want. "Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had" OK, you're not wrong on this point but I will say that you're forgetting the most powerful tool in Dust. teamwork. not even trolling here. a Passive scanning fit Cal scout or active Gal logi can easily see through most cloaks. And the best part: All the information is shared between squad mates. on the contrary dampening trumps passive scanners every time if you put the same level of modules, number of modules on each fitting. Scouts already have 35 dB and passive scanner at 40 dB (this is universal for all scouts) . Dampening modules also have 5% more dB than passive Scanners do. So Dampening will always trump scanners unless your not running gallente scout. Problem is that people have effectively created a hybrid assault class out of the scout class with increase speed, high number of module slots, cloaking which can be used in stealth and assault style combat, and can tank hp. This suit has become a hybrid assault cloaking devastator on the battlefield. It can no only operate as Intel gather and assassin but it can become a cloaking assault with the benefits of intel gathering, cloaking, and speed. Gal logi cannot active scan cloaks in the game due to already high profile dampening and the cloak give bonus to scan profile by 25%. No Scanner can find them, not even the strongest passive scanner or active scanner if fitted by Gal scouts.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 240	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:49:00 - [57] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: You're not listening to me man and its right there for you to re-read. I know what the test is about. It's obvious that I know in the post I have up there prior to this one. Why my story doesn't change. If you see the scout...repeat this with me now...if you see the scout, a scout shooting first before de-cloaking doesn't even matter. You see the scout!!!! LOL I don't know how else to say that to you. Awareness is key. Awareness nullifies the fact that the scout can shoot before decloaking One more time...say this with me now... Awareness nullfiies the fact that the scout can shoot before decloaking. It won't matter since you would have the drop on the scout instead of the scout having the drop on you. Do you understand that? Seriously I don't you think you do. All you hear is Michael Arck doesn't like Judge's video. Michael Arck doesn't know what he's talking about. That's all you reading in my posts and that's all you hear. Its like talking to a brick wall here. Okay, than you did not understand the test.... that statement you made just proves it. Its not about seeing them on the first test it about if you decloak after your first shot with a weapon. You do not decloak after your first shot with a weapon which was proven in the video. You can have the greatest awareness in the world but you dont decloak after you fire your weapon. (at least not after the first few rounds)
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4035	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:53:00 - [58] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Okay, than you did not understand the test.... that statement you made just proves it. Its not about seeing them on the first test it about if you decloak after your first shot with a weapon. You do not decloak after your first shot with a weapon which was proven in the video. You can have the greatest awareness in the world but you dont decloak after you fire your weapon. (at least not after the first few rounds) arguing with you is like arguing with a woman....just all over the place. You got it man. I had enough of this. You just don't get it. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 240	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:55:00 - [59] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Okay, than you did not understand the test.... that statement you made just proves it. Its not about seeing them on the first test it about if you decloak after your first shot with a weapon. You do not decloak after your first shot with a weapon which was proven in the video. You can have the greatest awareness in the world but you dont decloak after you fire your weapon. (at least not after the first few rounds) arguing with you is like arguing with a woman....just all over the place. You got it man. I had enough of this. You just don't get it. clearly you dont get it. Look we are not discussing the same topic. Your argument is about situational awareness, judge is talking about if you de cloak on the first shot which you dont. Do you see how this is not even the same topic? Your talking about something else entirely.
burning powers Algintal Core Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:58:00 - [60] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Okay, than you did not understand the test.... that statement you made just proves it. Its not about seeing them on the first test it about if you decloak after your first shot with a weapon. You do not decloak after your first shot with a weapon which was proven in the video. You can have the greatest awareness in the world but you dont decloak after you fire your weapon. (at least not after the first few rounds) arguing with you is like arguing with a woman....just all over the place. You got it man. I had enough of this. You just don't get it. Michael Arck your a fuc-king Idiot.

Mary Overdrive Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2014.04.26 02:59:00 - [61] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Okay, than you did not understand the test.... that statement you made just proves it. Its not about seeing them on the first test it about if you decloak after your first shot with a weapon. You do not decloak after your first shot with a weapon which was proven in the video. You can have the greatest awareness in the world but you dont decloak after you fire your weapon. (at least not after the first few rounds) arguing with you is like arguing with a woman....just all over the place. You got it man. I had enough of this. You just don't get it. Excuse me? did you make it sound like woman are just all over the place? what the hell is that suppose to mean? Your clearly never gonna find a girl with that attitude and your lucky I can stick my foot up your ass
Burntface man112 Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 147	Posted - 2014.04.26 03:04:00 - [62] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: LOL so Judge is still making some merc's panties wet by his accent eh? OK, other side of the coin, you are to check your surroundings and know that when hacking an objective, ANYBODY can sneak up on you unseen cloak or not and get damage points in before you have a time to react. That is the risk you take when hacking a supply depot or a NULL cannon. So that's a very poor example for the "getting a shot off before decloaked" problem. Another side of the coin, its the mechanics of war. Fairness is pretty much the last bullet point on the list, if not at all. If the mercenary was moving around, as he should have been, while hacking, his chance of survival are increased by small percentage. That's still worth it compared to just standing there and hacking, allowing any enemy to get a decent amount of damage on you before you react. You did not understand what the video was about. Even with someone Narrating it your clearly to stupid to listen, watch, and learn from anything. Judge stated in the beginning how it was about if you decloak after the first round. And than he did several different test of how long it took players to notice him sprinting towards them while cloaked and he still killed them because the reaction time for their brain to understand what they saw. Go back to school kiddo.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 928	Posted - 2014.04.26 03:59:00 - [63] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Michael Arck wrote: I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. So you didn't actually read what I said did you? Just admit it. *The hacker example is purely about amount of shots while cloaked.* Read that like 50 times until you understand it. It has nothing to do with the sneaking aspect, or the stealth while moving, or frontal assault, or anything else. Get it through your head. Are you that narrow minded? The hacker could not see the scout period because he was hacking a suppy depot. Duh! Cloak or uncloaked, the scout getting a shot before he decloaks doesn't make a difference!! The same thing would happen if I blasted him with my HMG. It is implied that the scout who gets a shot off before decloaking puts the scout at a advantage and the mercenary at a disadvantage BUUUUUT....(wait for it!) If the mercenary has seen the scout cloaked, moving with a shimmer, then IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF THE SCOUT GOT THE SHOT OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING OR NOT!!!!!!! If you don't see ANYBODY, you will be at a disadvantage!!!! So what is the point of the argument??? Show me somebody who is AWARE of the scout's presence. Show me that video and make your test from there. NO YOU CAN"T BECAUSE IT WOULD PROVE HIS TEST TO BE INADEQUATE SINCE THE MERC IS AWARE WHICH WOULD NEGATE HIS ARGUMENT ABOUT THE SHOT BEING LET OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING BECAUSE THAT MERC WOULD BE FIRING UPON THE SCOUT BEFORE HE EVEN SHOOTS!! If you are aware it wouldn't even matter!!!! WOW! Smh. You are not thinking. You just listen to what he says and what he shows and you automatically agree without considering the variables. The test proves nothing and is highly inadequate as a point of discussion. I have provided another side of the coin that you and many others ignore. OMG you are just about as smart as a box of dirt aren't you? First test: shows that you can just about fire two shots while cloaked (one shot then the next 0.25 seconds later) That is it, that is the end of the statement. There is nothing to add or qualify that with, you can almost fire two shots from a shotgun while cloaked, the end. The other stuff you talk about is just more absolute B.S. coming out of your lie hole. Judge has shown how you can do frontal assaults, he has shown how as a scout AT FULL SPRINT you can still be INVISIBLE. He has given proof. You offer nothing of any value, and should just leave this thread. Any chance of a graceful exit with some type of dignity has no passed, you have made yourself look completely thick. Also, judge is only backing up a lot of what I have said before on the forums, prior to his video. Fixing swarms
Archer Yorcot S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 25	Posted - 2014.04.26 04:00:00 - [64] - Quote "if the mercenary has seen the scout cloaked, moving with a shimmer, then IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF THE SCOUT GOT THE SHOT OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING OR NOT!!!!!" Judge has repeatedly demonstrated that relying on the shimmer effect to detect scouts is often flat out impossible. In fact, he devoted an entire video to it. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBICx2yyZo Furthermore, in his GÇ£First MoverGÇ¥ video, he engages several opponents who become aware of his presence head on. The results of those engagements speak for themselves. This forum signature is OP.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 240	Posted - 2014.04.26 04:06:00 - [65] - Quote Archer Yorcot wrote: "if the mercenary has seen the scout cloaked, moving with a shimmer, then IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF THE SCOUT GOT THE SHOT OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING OR NOT!!!!!" Judge has repeatedly demonstrated that relying on the shimmer effect to detect scouts is often flat out impossible. In fact, he devoted an entire video to it. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBICx2yyZo Furthermore, in his GÇ£First MoverGÇ¥ video, he engages several opponents who become aware of his presence head on. The results of those engagements speak for themselves. And those engagements probably would have different results if the decloak occurred before the shots were fired. That additional shimmer does not give all accurate detail of what your hitting due to the lack of visual data you brain can comprehend. so just before cloaking you do a possible 240 damage to hp before decloaking which the enemy chances of hitting you is decreased due to slight lack of visual context of what your actually shooting at as was shown in the video "unseen"
Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 201	Posted - 2014.04.26 04:41:00 - [66] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER. That's true. I was scouting area 'B' on some map I forgot the name of and saw a gal assault running around the complex cloak. By him/herself. I shook my head in dismay and shot the merc in the back with a love tap on my shotgun. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8996	Posted - 2014.04.26 04:50:00 - [67] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER, it's a disgusting mechanic. Cloaking should be kept strictly for traversing the map and gathering intel, and maybe even getting to a good flank spot, but never to give you an advantage on top of what a flank would give you. Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had. this post makes me want to skill into the laser rifle just so I can watch you chase it around the map. "Cloaks should never be used for assaults..." says you. I see "real" assaults, logis and even commandos use cloaks. what's their role? "Cloaking should be kept strictly for bla bla bla..."this makes me cringe when i read this, you're just telling people how to play the "right way" while CCP gives tons of creative freedom (the most in any online fps ive ever played) to play how we want. "Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had" OK, you're not wrong on this point but I will say that you're forgetting the most powerful tool in Dust. teamwork. not even trolling here. a Passive scanning fit Cal scout or active Gal logi can easily see through most cloaks. And the best part: All the information is shared between squad mates. The commandos, assaults and logis who use cloaks are easily detectable by passive scanning and are sacrificing much to fit them on their suits. CCP gives creative freedom, but TO A POINT, cloaks are an incredibly powerful tool, and just like a weapon that is overpowered, it can get absurd and need tweaking. A single enhanced damp on a Gallente scout who is cloaked and no matter what you do, you will never detect that scout. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Enji Elric Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 246	Posted - 2014.04.26 04:57:00 - [68] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER, it's a disgusting mechanic. Cloaking should be kept strictly for traversing the map and gathering intel, and maybe even getting to a good flank spot, but never to give you an advantage on top of what a flank would give you. Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had. regardless of how people think they should be played ( stealth- intel o_o actually scouting an area) the majority of the time you know of cloaks being used is cloaked shotgunner. and i have seen this with 1 to as many 15 cloaked shotgunners on one team.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 540	Posted - 2014.04.26 05:24:00 - [69] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here. Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points. OR Dismiss it all together. I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks. Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned? Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade. He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test. So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright. Because, that's why.
Seeth Mensch Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 226	Posted - 2014.04.26 06:40:00 - [70] - Quote Speaking as a gal scout, it really isn't fair that I can get s spot in while still cloaked. The reasonable thing to do is fix that first... While it's possible that there are other elements of the cloak that need fixing, that one does seem like an obvious flaw. I've used the hell out of it, and been blasted by it too. /fades away

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8107	Posted - 2014.04.26 07:44:00 - [71] - Quote Despite the disagreements we all have with each other on anything regarding cloaks, it seems we are in unanimous agreement that the shooting-while-cloaked glitch needs to be addressed immediately. Especially since CCP clearly stated that you need to decloak first before shooting. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Deep Shallowness Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2014.04.26 08:45:00 - [72] - Quote I thought it was a really good video. BUT why didn't he give an opinion on if he thinks the cloak is OP or not? is he scared?
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 242	Posted - 2014.04.26 09:39:00 - [73] - Quote Deep Shallowness wrote: I thought it was a really good video. BUT why didn't he give an opinion on if he thinks the cloak is OP or not? is he scared? Because he is not the person to decide if its over powered. Its a community and developer decision.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 541	Posted - 2014.04.26 09:54:00 - [74] - Quote I don't think we really can test it until the bug is fixed. How much of the advantage is simply caused by this? I don' t know but cloaked scouts are not gamebreakers. I see plenty of them still dying a lot. Clearly scouts have favorable stats right now, but they aren't a whole class dominating everyone else. Because, that's why.
Deep Shallowness Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2014.04.26 11:00:00 - [75] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Deep Shallowness wrote: I thought it was a really good video. BUT why didn't he give an opinion on if he thinks the cloak is OP or not? is he scared? Because he is not the person to decide if its over powered. Its a community and developer decision. Good point. It's more that people seem to really respect this dude, so I was waiting to see what he thought... then it ended.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 242	Posted - 2014.04.26 16:23:00 - [76] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: I don't think we really can test it until the bug is fixed. How much of the advantage is simply caused by this? I don' t know but cloaked scouts are not gamebreakers. I see plenty of them still dying a lot. Clearly scouts have favorable stats right now, but they aren't a whole class dominating everyone else. I think most people can agree that cloaking is not game breaking but they are some issue with it that should be addressed. Now does it need a nerf? Or does it need a simply adjustment (like deactivation only on manual press)? Its tough to say, but you are right on one thing. And we have seen how much advantage cloaks get with this current "bug" if it is one. Most players who are witnessing this "bug" suffer from visual data not being comprehended due to the brains lack of reaction time. cloaked scouts are not game breaking in anyway and Judge does not judge it over powered. The issue at hand with cloaks are really two things 1) Getting rounds into the enemy before decloaking 2) Cloaks can be used as both assault and stealth situations. (this point is my opinion, some may feel it should be assault based but I believe that kinda makes the scout a hybrid assault class which makes the assault suits have no point on the battlefield)
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 46	Posted - 2014.04.26 16:45:00 - [77] - Quote I fully support Judge video. What he is doing is shining the bug that exist in the moment. You should not be able to fire while being cloak Amarr Victor
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2045	Posted - 2014.04.26 16:53:00 - [78] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Here's another video about Cloaking done by Judge. Still no comment, but judge it for yourself. Also, I hope you don't mind me posting these videos on the forums Judge. I like posting these to get player feedback and bring up discussion which in my opinion is a great way to get multiple opinions and insights. The First Mover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj8vXTqgw1M Recap for the previous video and discussion can be found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156109 Looks like Judge has a lot of brown nosers. God help us when he's a CPM for a year. Because it unfortunately will happen. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Deep Shallowness Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2014.04.26 17:44:00 - [79] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Looks like Judge has a lot of brown nosers. God help us when he's a CPM for a year. Because it unfortunately will happen. I just went to the council chamber and he's not on any of the candidate lists and there is no candidate thread from him at all. So looks like he's not even running, so why do you think he is?
Black SlaverX Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 172	Posted - 2014.04.26 17:55:00 - [80] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Here's another video about Cloaking done by Judge. Still no comment, but judge it for yourself. Also, I hope you don't mind me posting these videos on the forums Judge. I like posting these to get player feedback and bring up discussion which in my opinion is a great way to get multiple opinions and insights. The First Mover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj8vXTqgw1M Recap for the previous video and discussion can be found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156109 Looks like Judge has a lot of brown nosers. God help us when he's a CPM for a year. Because it unfortunately will happen. Now pay attention class, here is a perfect example of someone who is afraid. He is afraid of loosing his crutches (both vehicle and cloak). He is so afraid that he results to insults to try and sway people to his side. Pity this man. Watch your back because I might be there.

NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 377	Posted - 2014.04.26 18:03:00 - [81] - Quote Just going to point out two things here, 1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage. 2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.) Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways. Just saying, Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 242	Posted - 2014.04.26 18:07:00 - [82] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: Just going to point out two things here, 1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage. 2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.) Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways. Just saying, Do you got evidence to back up this claim? because on the dev blog it clearly states once you swap to weapon you immediately decloak. Here is the dev blog and list of detailed cloak functions. Cloaking works as follows: The cloak field is a piece of equipment. When the cloak field is selected, the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. Once activated, the cortex remains on-screen. Switching to any other equipment, weapon or throwing a grenade will deactivate the cloak. The amount of cloak "shimmer" is increased as you move. When standing still you will be invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. While cloaked, you will have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. When in use, the cloak fieldGÇÖs energy depletes slowly over time. Cloak can be manually deactivated by pressing fire or switching to a different piece of equipment or a weapon. Once deactivated or the cloak field runs out of energy it will start to recharge. You cannot reactivate the cloak field unless you have at least 50% charge. You can only fit one cloak field at a time. You do not decloak when hacking an objective or vehicle. You do not decloak when jumping or falling. If shot while cloaked, hit VFX will still be displayed. When cloaking and decloaking noticeable VFX are played. Here are some examples of the cloak in action: Source http://dust514.com/news/2014/03/equipment-uprising-1.8/
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 83	Posted - 2014.04.26 18:57:00 - [83] - Quote Once again Judge draws a load of conclusions that are barely indicated by the evidence presented, with a load of missing details and reasoning errors, and calls them "facts". Sadly I don't have time to critically analyse every point he makes here. Though I will say that in the example with his friend waiting for him, Judge approached from outside his field of view meaning the cloak had not effect. Also he failed to realise or comment on the fact that approaching an enemy, whilst cloaked, head on is extremely dangerous. Yes if you attack before being noticed the cloak will assist with the element of surprise giving an advantage. However, if your opponents sees you first he will be the first mover and have the advantage as you will not have a weapon equipped. Also I find it somewhat disingenuous to claim he's not saying cloaks or scouts are op when it seems pretty clear this is exactly what he is inferring. That said I broadly agree that cloaks in their current form can too easily be used as an assault tool. If you had to spend a second to decloak before switching weapons maybe scouts could no longer overshadow assaults and people would regain some of the respect they had pre 1.8 for the skill and strategic awareness it takes to be a successful scout. Can I also say, despite my criticism, I greatly respect Judge's commitment to improving the game and community. Also the way he shows, in detail, the mechanics of the game for us to discuss is excellent.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2028	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:21:00 - [84] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Once again Judge draws a load of conclusions that are barely indicated by the evidence presented, with a load of missing details and reasoning errors, and calls them "facts". Sadly I don't have time to critically analyse every point he makes here. Though I will say that in the example with his friend waiting for him, Judge approached from outside his field of view meaning the cloak had not effect. Also he failed to realise or comment on the fact that approaching an enemy, whilst cloaked, head on is extremely dangerous. Yes if you attack before being noticed the cloak will assist with the element of surprise giving an advantage. However, if your opponents sees you first he will be the first mover and have the advantage as you will not have a weapon equipped. Also I find it somewhat disingenuous to claim he's not saying cloaks or scouts are op when it seems pretty clear this is exactly what he is inferring. That said I broadly agree that cloaks in their current form can too easily be used as an assault tool. If you had to spend a second to decloak before switching weapons maybe scouts could no longer overshadow assaults and people would regain some of the respect they had pre 1.8 for the skill and strategic awareness it takes to be a successful scout. Can I also say, despite my criticism, I greatly respect Judge's commitment to improving the game and community. Also the way he shows, in detail, the mechanics of the game for us to discuss is excellent. I just thought I would pop in to say that this is what we need in this community. Even though you disagree, quite strongly - You even went so far to call me disingenuous and also that I made factual errors; you have expressed them without being abusive. Strongly worded, sure but disagreement is fine, but it needs to be qualified, which you did. I don't agree with you, but that is what a discussion is for. I have presented my thoughts and experience. It is there for the community to discuss. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video and for recognizing that one differing opinion is not reason to dismiss a person or all of that persons ideas. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8114	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:29:00 - [85] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: Just going to point out two things here, 1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage. 2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.) Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways. Just saying, On your first point, CCP did originally intend to allow firing the first shot while cloaked. However the community responded as making the cloak OP due to shotgun users. CCP later on, as noted on their dev blogs, withdrew that idea and instead restricted it to having the cortex active at all times in order to maintain cloak. Clearly the cloak-shotgun issue somehow reared its ugly head in this update when it shouldn't have. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Yan Darn Science For Death 674	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:38:00 - [86] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: NextDark Knight wrote: Just going to point out two things here, 1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage. 2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.) Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways. Just saying, Do you got evidence to back up this claim? because on the dev blog it clearly states once you swap to weapon you immediately decloak. Here is the dev blog and list of detailed cloak functions. Cloaking works as follows: The cloak field is a piece of equipment. When the cloak field is selected, the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. Once activated, the cortex remains on-screen. Switching to any other equipment, weapon or throwing a grenade will deactivate the cloak. The amount of cloak "shimmer" is increased as you move. When standing still you will be invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. While cloaked, you will have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. When in use, the cloak fieldGÇÖs energy depletes slowly over time. Cloak can be manually deactivated by pressing fire or switching to a different piece of equipment or a weapon. Once deactivated or the cloak field runs out of energy it will start to recharge. You cannot reactivate the cloak field unless you have at least 50% charge. You can only fit one cloak field at a time. You do not decloak when hacking an objective or vehicle. You do not decloak when jumping or falling. If shot while cloaked, hit VFX will still be displayed. When cloaking and decloaking noticeable VFX are played. Here are some examples of the cloak in action: Source http://dust514.com/news/2014/03/equipment-uprising-1.8/ Sorry for not cutting this down, but I'm on a phone. Basically - while the original idea was to fire from cloak, the CPM/Players argues that the very principal would harm the game. At least that was my interpretation of the debate back then. In the dev blog, I haven't noticed anything about immediate deactivation - that is the ability to instantly to decloak and fire (like stealth bombers in eve) just 'deactivation'. They mention pressing fire to deactivate and that is basically the only time there is a delay before you can fire. That is why no one presses R1 - you switch weapon instead. It makes no sense to me that one method would have a delay and another doesn't, which makes me think the animation is supposed to play out even when switching weapons. It's not improbable that CCP would let that kind of obvious glitch pass them by. Look at all the crap that happenend with the STD gal scouts... The Ghost of Bravo
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 84	Posted - 2014.04.26 21:01:00 - [87] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I just thought I would pop in to say that this is what we need in this community. Even though you disagree, quite strongly - You even went so far to call me disingenuous and also that I made factual errors; you have expressed them without being abusive. Strongly worded, sure but disagreement is fine, but it needs to be qualified, which you did. I don't agree with you, but that is what a discussion is for. I have presented my thoughts and experience. It is there for the community to discuss. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video and for recognizing that one differing opinion is not reason to dismiss a person or all of that persons ideas. Thanks Judge. Sorry to be a bit rude, I just felt I had to say how I feel about your video and the issue at hand. I know you put a lot of effort into your videos and they are great, particularly the detailed insight into how things work. I just wish you would be a little more careful when drawing conclusions. Also I think you shouldn't be afraid to express an opinion. I would hope people would be able to listen without dismissing the rest as bias.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 244	Posted - 2014.04.26 21:25:00 - [88] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: NextDark Knight wrote: Just going to point out two things here, 1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage. 2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.) Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways. Just saying, On your first point, CCP did originally intend to allow firing the first shot while cloaked. However the community responded as making the cloak OP due to shotgun users. CCP later on, as noted on their dev blogs, withdrew that idea and instead restricted it to having the cortex active at all times in order to maintain cloak. Clearly the cloak-shotgun issue somehow reared its ugly head in this update when it shouldn't have. I have been hearing people say this but I have never seen a post or detailed information by CCP about shooting while cloaked. Can you submit a link to help prove this? I am quite curious to see if this was stated by CCP or if its just rumors.
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 244	Posted - 2014.04.26 21:32:00 - [89] - Quote Yan Darn wrote: Minor Treat wrote: NextDark Knight wrote: Just going to point out two things here, 1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage. 2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.) Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways. Just saying, Do you got evidence to back up this claim? because on the dev blog it clearly states once you swap to weapon you immediately decloak. Here is the dev blog and list of detailed cloak functions. Cloaking works as follows: The cloak field is a piece of equipment. When the cloak field is selected, the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. Once activated, the cortex remains on-screen. Switching to any other equipment, weapon or throwing a grenade will deactivate the cloak. The amount of cloak "shimmer" is increased as you move. When standing still you will be invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. While cloaked, you will have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. When in use, the cloak fieldGÇÖs energy depletes slowly over time. Cloak can be manually deactivated by pressing fire or switching to a different piece of equipment or a weapon. Once deactivated or the cloak field runs out of energy it will start to recharge. You cannot reactivate the cloak field unless you have at least 50% charge. You can only fit one cloak field at a time. You do not decloak when hacking an objective or vehicle. You do not decloak when jumping or falling. If shot while cloaked, hit VFX will still be displayed. When cloaking and decloaking noticeable VFX are played. Here are some examples of the cloak in action: Source http://dust514.com/news/2014/03/equipment-uprising-1.8/ Sorry for not cutting this down, but I'm on a phone. Basically - while the original idea was to fire from cloak, the CPM/Players argues that the very principal would harm the game. At least that was my interpretation of the debate back then. In the dev blog, I haven't noticed anything about immediate deactivation - that is the ability to instantly to decloak and fire (like stealth bombers in eve) just 'deactivation'. They mention pressing fire to deactivate and that is basically the only time there is a delay before you can fire. That is why no one presses R1 - you switch weapon instead. It makes no sense to me that one method would have a delay and another doesn't, which makes me think the animation is supposed to play out even when switching weapons. It's not improbable that CCP would let that kind of obvious glitch pass them by. Look at all the crap that happenend with the STD gal scouts... My response is... No problem for not cutting it down. But I've never seen a single bit of information that CCP was intending to implement free firing with cloaking. I'm hoping you can supply a source to verify your information. As for the Devs blog. It does not say immediate deactivation- but it does say " Once activated, the cortex remains on-screen. Switching to any other equipment, weapon or throwing a grenade will deactivate the cloak." So we know that the cortex will remain on-screen until you switch weapons which will deactivate cloak. So in that part its acknowledge you deactivate your cloak and you only remain cloaked with the cortex on screen. I hope that help illuminate any confusion. Keep in mind CCP does not need to use the word immediate deactivation when they say you deactivate once you do these responses. I think your kinda reading into the details of the post a little to much and not acknowledging what was posted by them (And I mean that respectfully).
Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1229	Posted - 2014.04.26 21:37:00 - [90] - Quote I feel that Judge's video doesn't accurately portray the situation. This is no fault of Judge's, but of the visual quality of his videos. Those frames he shows do make it hard to see. But notice how much better quality the actual game is than his videos. Of course the shimmer will be hard to notice in thst video, it's been compressed to fit on the Youtube player and reduced in quality. In game, shimmer is much easier to see. As well, the people claiming it's easy to see cloak shimmer are probably under the toupee fallacy to some degree. But a lot of those players talk about seeing the shimmer whenever they are not engaged in a firefight, or aren't actively hunting a vehicle, or in some way are distracted from looking for the shimmer. I spot scouts with cloaks thinking they can run straight at me to place remotes on my tanks, and they get popped rather easily. Also, you can spot a cloak standing still by noticing how the environment bends in the shape of a dropsuit. I notice this many times, and I'm sure there are times I've missed it. But I was probably focusing on something else when I missed it. This is the point of the cloak. It makes it easier to move around a heated firefight and get to a flanking position, because the enemy is busy with the ones shooting at them. That's the entire point of it. Cloaks are working as intended here. I will grant that I've seen a bug where cloakers pop in and out of rendering (He disappears completely from view, and reappears as I get closer.) This needs to be fixed ASAP, but as far as the shimmer goes, if you aren't fighting someone and you don't spot it, you are either not paying attention, or he's behind you and not in your field of view to begin with. That's what you get!! - DA Rick

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2029	Posted - 2014.04.26 21:48:00 - [91] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel that Judge's video doesn't accurately portray the situation. This is no fault of Judge's, but of the visual quality of his videos. Those frames he shows do make it hard to see. But notice how much better quality the actual game is than his videos.. Did you change the video your 720p in the youtube settings (it always defauts to a lower quality than that). I record in the EXACT same quality as the game. I have done a pixel count test. Its EXACTLY the same. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Emo Skellington The Neutral Zone 34	Posted - 2014.04.26 21:53:00 - [92] - Quote Hey alena, good to see you on forums, now if only you did this for nzone lol. I completely agree with judge on how the cloak is more of a frontal assault right now then stealth NZONE
Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1230	Posted - 2014.04.26 21:57:00 - [93] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel that Judge's video doesn't accurately portray the situation. This is no fault of Judge's, but of the visual quality of his videos. Those frames he shows do make it hard to see. But notice how much better quality the actual game is than his videos.. Did you change the video your 720p in the youtube settings (it always defauts to a lower quality than that). I record in the EXACT same quality as the game. I have done a pixel count test. Its EXACTLY the same. And when you increase the screen size , such as going fullscreen even in 720p, the quality lowers. Again, this isn't your fault, it's the video quality. As I said, I've spotted plenty of scouts trying to sneak around me, and I'm in a tank. There are surely plenty I haven't noticed, but this is because I was busy chasing another tank, or in a fight with some AV, or in some way focused elsewhere and not on my surroundings. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 2258	Posted - 2014.04.26 22:15:00 - [94] - Quote burning powers wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Okay, than you did not understand the test.... that statement you made just proves it. Its not about seeing them on the first test it about if you decloak after your first shot with a weapon. You do not decloak after your first shot with a weapon which was proven in the video. You can have the greatest awareness in the world but you dont decloak after you fire your weapon. (at least not after the first few rounds) arguing with you is like arguing with a woman....just all over the place. You got it man. I had enough of this. You just don't get it. Michael Arck your a fuc-king Idiot. FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1233	Posted - 2014.04.27 00:51:00 - [95] - Quote Emo Skellington wrote: Hey alena, good to see you on forums, now if only you did this for nzone lol. I completely agree with judge on how the cloak is more of a frontal assault right now then stealth Neutral Zone is in my heart no matter the ticker under my name bro. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 380	Posted - 2014.04.27 01:20:00 - [96] - Quote Minor Treat, The original bonuses on the scouts that where pulled from the test server. I don't like your attitude so you can do the leg work to find the screenshots. Caldari Scout Bonus: 5% reduction to firing cloak cost per level. Also there talks from the devs that all but the Sniper Rifle could fire under cloak. The original design allowed you to aim with your gun, I don't remember if they mentioned the ADS working. The community had a @#$@ fit about it.. And the design was scrapped because the amount of people that assumed the gameplay would be horrible. Honestly, I would of liked to play that version of the game to see what they where testing. If it was for the better we will never know now, yet most people don't hear the decloak sound or can understand the shimmer effect. So all you cloak haters, the cloak was delivered pre-nerfed. You give this community a inch, they will take a mile and beat your mom and spit in your face... Just saying. QQ is the most powerful weapon in this game, hands down. Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4061	Posted - 2014.04.27 01:27:00 - [97] - Quote I'm glad some people with common sense with the ability to think for themselves, answered this thread. Seriously. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Minor Treat RisingSuns Dark Taboo 245	Posted - 2014.04.27 01:58:00 - [98] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: Minor Treat, The original bonuses on the scouts that where pulled from the test server. I don't like your attitude so you can do the leg work to find the screenshots. Caldari Scout Bonus: 5% reduction to firing cloak cost per level. Also there talks from the devs that all but the Sniper Rifle could fire under cloak. The original design allowed you to aim with your gun, I don't remember if they mentioned the ADS working. The community had a @#$@ fit about it.. And the design was scrapped because the amount of people that assumed the gameplay would be horrible. Honestly, I would of liked to play that version of the game to see what they where testing. If it was for the better we will never know now, yet most people don't hear the decloak sound or can understand the shimmer effect. So all you cloak haters, the cloak was delivered pre-nerfed. You give this community a inch, they will take a mile and beat your mom and spit in your face... Just saying. QQ is the most powerful weapon in this game, hands down. Well I am sorry you feel that way about my attitude, I meant no disrespect or to make you feel uncomfortable. But I stand by what I said. If you can't provide source material to back this up than for all I know you could be making it up. Its not meant to be offensive but simply a request for where you got your information. Also I hope to clear this up with you, that I don't hate on the cloak at all. If anything its a great addition to the game but there are some issue that occur with its functional compared to the notes posted by CCP blog on how it should work. So again I ask you to post up a link to the information of your sources if your claiming these things. PS: This kind of attitude you just posted does no one any good. "You give this community a inch, they will take a mile and beat your mom and spit in your face... Just saying. "
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4066	Posted - 2014.04.27 02:01:00 - [99] - Quote He didn't post an attitude. He's describing how badly you guys will nerf and dismantle mechanics within the game. It's analogy. Stop being a softy and go outside. Play some football. Like this cloak issue that is nothing more than a like generation mechanic. Coming from the same guy who wanted swarms ranges nerfed but gets mad when rail tanks are camping redline, blasting him outta the sky. If the swarm range wasn't nerfed, his headache of tanks on the redline would be minimal because the range of the swarms would have decreased the redline camping. Why are people searching for things to change in the game that needs no adjustments? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8117	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:09:00 - [100] - Quote Minor Treat wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: NextDark Knight wrote: Just going to point out two things here, 1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage. 2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.) Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways. Just saying, On your first point, CCP did originally intend to allow firing the first shot while cloaked. However the community responded as making the cloak OP due to shotgun users. CCP later on, as noted on their dev blogs, withdrew that idea and instead restricted it to having the cortex active at all times in order to maintain cloak. Clearly the cloak-shotgun issue somehow reared its ugly head in this update when it shouldn't have. I have been hearing people say this but I have never seen a post or detailed information by CCP about shooting while cloaked. Can you submit a link to help prove this? I am quite curious to see if this was stated by CCP or if its just rumors. I can't find the link anymore, but it was posted on the forums that CCP was originally thinking about letting people shoot while cloaked and I was there at the time when I saw it. It wasn't just shotgunners like you see today that had people concerned. Snipers were also a factor as well as other high-alpha weapons like Ishukone Nova Knives. The idea that somehow some invisible force would blap you in one second from a cloaked form really scared a lot of people. Hell, it even scared me and I'm a stealth guy. The dev blog that you linked was the result of the community's reaction to CCP's original idea. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8117	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:11:00 - [101] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: He didn't post an attitude. He's describing how badly you guys will nerf and dismantle mechanics within the game. It's analogy. Stop being a softy and go outside. Play some football. Like this cloak issue that is nothing more than a like generation mechanic. Coming from the same guy who wanted swarms ranges nerfed but gets mad when rail tanks are camping redline, blasting him outta the sky. If the swarm range wasn't nerfed, his headache of tanks on the redline would be minimal because the range of the swarms would have decreased the redline camping. Why are people searching for things to change in the game that needs no adjustments? Last time I checked, redline rails got nerfed and now they are a thing of the past. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Tek Hound Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 258	Posted - 2014.04.27 18:50:00 - [102] - Quote Let's have some fun 1)seen you the whole time 2)it's called cloak for a reason 3)not everybody has the same reaction time 4)bad situational awareness = can't see cloak 5)don't try to make point playing against scrubs then say your playing against scrubs 6)comments like there should be assault cloak and stealth cloak show you have no understanding of what a cloak is 7)every engaged target was preoccupied 8)what was there gear like vs yours ,we're they on organized squads or lone-wolfs 9)laser must be op the way you we're kill them without cloak 10)I just going to stop to much to rip apart Ps. L2p
syzygiet Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2014.04.27 19:04:00 - [103] - Quote Tek Hound wrote: Let's have some fun 1)seen you the whole time 2)it's called cloak for a reason 3)not everybody has the same reaction time 4)bad situational awareness = can't see cloak 5)don't try to make point playing against scrubs then say your playing against scrubs 6)comments like there should be assault cloak and stealth cloak show you have no understanding of what a cloak is 7)every engaged target was preoccupied 8)what was there gear like vs yours ,we're they on organized squads or lone-wolfs 9)laser must be op the way you we're kill them without cloak 10)I just going to stop to much to rip apart Ps. L2p What the hell is this? That list made no sense at all. I think he is trying to put to the rest the point of contention that you can't shoot when cloaked . This video shows that is clearly not the case you are able to see you can switch weapons without decloaking and then being able to unload ~1 rounds from the SG or 9 bullets from an automatic before being fully decloaked.
Tek Hound Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 258	Posted - 2014.04.27 19:13:00 - [104] - Quote syzygiet wrote: Tek Hound wrote: Let's have some fun 1)seen you the whole time 2)it's called cloak for a reason 3)not everybody has the same reaction time 4)bad situational awareness = can't see cloak 5)don't try to make point playing against scrubs then say your playing against scrubs 6)comments like there should be assault cloak and stealth cloak show you have no understanding of what a cloak is 7)every engaged target was preoccupied 8)what was there gear like vs yours ,we're they on organized squads or lone-wolfs 9)laser must be op the way you we're kill them without cloak 10)I just going to stop to much to rip apart Ps. L2p What the hell is this? That list made no sense at all. I think he is trying to put to the rest the point of contention that you can't shoot when cloaked . This video shows that is clearly not the case you are able to see you can switch weapons without decloaking and then being able to unload ~1 rounds from the SG or 9 bullets from an automatic before being fully decloaked. 1)no the was one point and a know bug 2)he stated you can't see them 3) want to talk about reaction time 4)cloak or no cloak you can easily fire into preoccupied targets(reaction time diff between people/lag) 5)it's a pure biased video (listen to his comments)
Kane Fyea 2635	Posted - 2014.04.27 19:20:00 - [105] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel that Judge's video doesn't accurately portray the situation. This is no fault of Judge's, but of the visual quality of his videos. Those frames he shows do make it hard to see. But notice how much better quality the actual game is than his videos.. Did you change the video your 720p in the youtube settings (it always defauts to a lower quality than that). I record in the EXACT same quality as the game. I have done a pixel count test. Its EXACTLY the same. The resolution maybe the same but youtube butchers video quality when you upload. This is not your fault but it is true.


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