arguing with you is like arguing with a woman....just all over the place. You got it man. I had enough of this. You just don't get it.

LOL so Judge is still making some merc's panties wet by his accent eh?

OK, other side of the coin, you are to check your surroundings and know that when hacking an objective, ANYBODY can sneak up on you unseen cloak or not and get damage points in before you have a time to react. That is the risk you take when hacking a supply depot or a NULL cannon.

So that's a very poor example for the "getting a shot off before decloaked" problem.

Another side of the coin, its the mechanics of war. Fairness is pretty much the last bullet point on the list, if not at all.

If the mercenary was moving around, as he should have been, while hacking, his chance of survival are increased by small percentage. That's still worth it compared to just standing there and hacking, allowing any enemy to get a decent amount of damage on you before you react.

Are you that narrow minded? The hacker could not see the scout period because he was hacking a suppy depot. Duh!

Cloak or uncloaked, the scout getting a shot before he decloaks doesn't make a difference!! The same thing would happen if I blasted him with my HMG.

It is implied that the scout who gets a shot off before decloaking puts the scout at a advantage and the mercenary at a disadvantage

BUUUUUT....(wait for it!)

If the mercenary has seen the scout cloaked, moving with a shimmer, then IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF THE SCOUT GOT THE SHOT OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING OR NOT!!!!!!!

If you don't see ANYBODY, you will be at a disadvantage!!!!

So what is the point of the argument???

Show me somebody who is AWARE of the scout's presence. Show me that video and make your test from there. NO YOU CAN"T BECAUSE IT WOULD PROVE HIS TEST TO BE INADEQUATE SINCE THE MERC IS AWARE WHICH WOULD NEGATE HIS ARGUMENT ABOUT THE SHOT BEING LET OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING BECAUSE THAT MERC WOULD BE FIRING UPON THE SCOUT BEFORE HE EVEN SHOOTS!!

If you are aware it wouldn't even matter!!!! WOW!

Smh. You are not thinking. You just listen to what he says and what he shows and you automatically agree without considering the variables.

The test proves nothing and is highly inadequate as a point of discussion. I have provided another side of the coin that you and many others ignore.

"if the mercenary has seen the scout cloaked, moving with a shimmer, then IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF THE SCOUT GOT THE SHOT OFF BEFORE DECLOAKING OR NOT!!!!!"


Judge has repeatedly demonstrated that relying on the shimmer effect to detect scouts is often flat out impossible.

In fact, he devoted an entire video to it. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBICx2yyZo

Furthermore, in his GÇ£First MoverGÇ¥ video, he engages several opponents who become aware of his presence head on. The results of those engagements speak for themselves.

Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER.

this post makes me want to skill into the laser rifle just so I can watch you chase it around the map.

"Cloaks should never be used for assaults..." says you. I see "real" assaults, logis and even commandos use cloaks. what's their role?

"Cloaking should be kept strictly for bla bla bla..."this makes me cringe when i read this, you're just telling people how to play the "right way" while CCP gives tons of creative freedom (the most in any online fps ive ever played) to play how we want.


"Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had"

OK, you're not wrong on this point but I will say that you're forgetting the most powerful tool in Dust. teamwork. not even trolling here. a Passive scanning fit Cal scout or active Gal logi can easily see through most cloaks. And the best part: All the information is shared between squad mates.

Cloaks should never be used for assaults, EVER, it's a disgusting mechanic.
Cloaking should be kept strictly for traversing the map and gathering intel, and maybe even getting to a good flank spot, but never to give you an advantage on top of what a flank would give you.


Scouts have incredibly strong EWAR and speed, they should pay for that with combat effectiveness vs assaults, but the cloak takes away whatever advantage the enemy had.

I say this with no ill will. I'm just stating the truth here.

Nothing can be said to you guys because whatever Judge says, you guys go with it. And if someone disagrees, you guys either attack the difference of opinion without understanding it, just equating it to mudslinging instead of valid points.

OR

Dismiss it all together.

I'm smart enough to understand its a test. But its a poor test. The fact remains, when someone is hacking the supply depot, you're vulnerable to many things, not just a cloaked scout who can get a shot off before he decloaks.

Seeing that as his first example just doesn't make sense to me. How can we have a valid discussion on the matter when his first "test" shows a mercenary who just stands out a supply depot with his back turned?

Not only that, but the mercenary sat with his back towards the open field. THE OPEN FIELD! LOL! That's asking for trouble. He could have been FG'd. Sniped from the tower. Blasted from a HMG. Bombarded by a dropship. Blown apart by a well tossed grenade.

He didn't even need to cloak to get to that CalAss player. So again, its a poor example for a test.

So until you guys are able to accept differences opinions, then you guys will no longer get a broader scope to the picture. Judge makes a video and its final with you guys. No one else can say anything else to it. Unless of course, that person is praising then its alright.

I thought it was a really good video. BUT why didn't he give an opinion on if he thinks the cloak is OP or not? is he scared?

Because he is not the person to decide if its over powered. Its a community and developer decision.

I don't think we really can test it until the bug is fixed. How much of the advantage is simply caused by this? I don'
t know but cloaked scouts are not gamebreakers. I see plenty of them still dying a lot. Clearly scouts have favorable stats right now, but they aren't a whole class dominating everyone else.

Here's another video about Cloaking done by Judge. Still no comment, but judge it for yourself.

Also, I hope you don't mind me posting these videos on the forums Judge. I like posting these to get player feedback and bring up discussion which in my opinion is a great way to get multiple opinions and insights.

The First Mover
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj8vXTqgw1M


Recap for the previous video and discussion can be found here

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156109

Looks like Judge has a lot of brown nosers. God help us when he's a CPM for a year. Because it unfortunately will happen.

Looks like Judge has a lot of brown nosers. God help us when he's a CPM for a year. Because it unfortunately will happen.

Just going to point out two things here,

1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage.

2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.)

Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways.

Just saying,

Once again Judge draws a load of conclusions that are barely indicated by the evidence presented, with a load of missing details and reasoning errors, and calls them "facts". Sadly I don't have time to critically analyse every point he makes here.

Though I will say that in the example with his friend waiting for him, Judge approached from outside his field of view meaning the cloak had not effect. Also he failed to realise or comment on the fact that approaching an enemy, whilst cloaked, head on is extremely dangerous. Yes if you attack before being noticed the cloak will assist with the element of surprise giving an advantage. However, if your opponents sees you first he will be the first mover and have the advantage as you will not have a weapon equipped.

Also I find it somewhat disingenuous to claim he's not saying cloaks or scouts are op when it seems pretty clear this is exactly what he is inferring.

That said I broadly agree that cloaks in their current form can too easily be used as an assault tool. If you had to spend a second to decloak before switching weapons maybe scouts could no longer overshadow assaults and people would regain some of the respect they had pre 1.8 for the skill and strategic awareness it takes to be a successful scout.

Can I also say, despite my criticism, I greatly respect Judge's commitment to improving the game and community. Also the way he shows, in detail, the mechanics of the game for us to discuss is excellent.

Just going to point out two things here,

1.) CCP was going to release the cloak with the ability to fire cloaked without decloaking. In my eyes the cloakers should keep a first mover advantage.

2.) The video does not show him being attacked by cloakers, or the shimmer effects from a victums perspective, or a frame by frame breakdown of the damage received to him on a scout decloaking. The video is incompletely, yet even if it did come out in favor of the cloaker (Which I believe it will) see option 1.)

Mosty people don't know, the cloak was designed to be fired cloaked.. To eat up the cloak meter in turn preventing the cloaker the ability to recloak again. Then leaving the cloaker at a disadvange if he is spotted or cannot find cover. We never was given the option to experience this gameplay and if we did most of the forum posters are so one dimensional they wouldn't understand it anyways.

Just saying,

Do you got evidence to back up this claim?

because on the dev blog it clearly states once you swap to weapon you immediately decloak.

Here is the dev blog and list of detailed cloak functions.
Cloaking works as follows:

The cloak field is a piece of equipment.
When the cloak field is selected, the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it.
Once activated, the cortex remains on-screen. Switching to any other equipment, weapon or throwing a grenade will deactivate the cloak.
The amount of cloak "shimmer" is increased as you move. When standing still you will be invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. While cloaked, you will have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it.
When in use, the cloak fieldGÇÖs energy depletes slowly over time.
Cloak can be manually deactivated by pressing fire or switching to a different piece of equipment or a weapon.
Once deactivated or the cloak field runs out of energy it will start to recharge.
You cannot reactivate the cloak field unless you have at least 50% charge.
You can only fit one cloak field at a time.
You do not decloak when hacking an objective or vehicle.
You do not decloak when jumping or falling.
If shot while cloaked, hit VFX will still be displayed.
When cloaking and decloaking noticeable VFX are played.
Here are some examples of the cloak in action:

Source
http://dust514.com/news/2014/03/equipment-uprising-1.8/

I just thought I would pop in to say that this is what we need in this community. Even though you disagree, quite strongly - You even went so far to call me disingenuous and also that I made factual errors; you have expressed them without being abusive. Strongly worded, sure but disagreement is fine, but it needs to be qualified, which you did.

I don't agree with you, but that is what a discussion is for. I have presented my thoughts and experience. It is there for the community to discuss. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video and for recognizing that one differing opinion is not reason to dismiss a person or all of that persons ideas.

On your first point, CCP did originally intend to allow firing the first shot while cloaked. However the community responded as making the cloak OP due to shotgun users. CCP later on, as noted on their dev blogs, withdrew that idea and instead restricted it to having the cortex active at all times in order to maintain cloak.

Clearly the cloak-shotgun issue somehow reared its ugly head in this update when it shouldn't have.

Sorry for not cutting this down, but I'm on a phone.

Basically - while the original idea was to fire from cloak, the CPM/Players argues that the very principal would harm the game. At least that was my interpretation of the debate back then.

In the dev blog, I haven't noticed anything about immediate deactivation - that is the ability to instantly to decloak and fire (like stealth bombers in eve) just 'deactivation'.

They mention pressing fire to deactivate and that is basically the only time there is a delay before you can fire. That is why no one presses R1 - you switch weapon instead. It makes no sense to me that one method would have a delay and another doesn't, which makes me think the animation is supposed to play out even when switching weapons.

It's not improbable that CCP would let that kind of obvious glitch pass them by. Look at all the crap that happenend with the STD gal scouts...