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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3305
   |
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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commando biffle
Shadow Company HQ
Lokun Listamenn
59
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing.
I not don't like you but this is a good post
514MB!!! its a joke right?
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Free Beers
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2300
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
so turn pc back into an isk sink? Sorry man, i have lost money on half the pc matches i played in (we won them too) but my 250k suits or ADS will run me 2-3-4 mill and I hate to think what tankers make.
Lastly, if you take away the isk what you have is a bunch of players with tons of isk and no chance for newer groups (or vets coming back like WTF did) to compete.
lets face it PC 1.0 is trash and ccp foxfour should feel bad. You're on CPM tell ccp to get this **** **** design out of the game.
Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
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VALCORE72
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
138
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
same . im voten for suger lol like her voice and her ideas |
HowDidThatTaste
Ancient Exiles.
Dirt Nap Squad.
4568
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
While this is an interesting concept, let play it out a few months.
1 st question after you take a district could you sell the clones off it and abandon the district?
It would seem to encourage more corps to just no show battles why put the effort into holding it if you know you might loose.
Only fight against corps you know you could beat and not take on the tougher corps, would kinda be like the corp battles of old
Many many no shows and people ducking fights. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
3330
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
So only the rich can go to war and the peasents are left to pubs
Looks like kain is just a PR man for DNS and wants to keep the donut as it is with this idea |
Free Beers
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2300
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:While this is an interesting concept, let play it out a few months.
1 st question after you take a district could you sell the clones off it and abandon the district?
It would seem to encourage more corps to just no show battles why put the effort into holding it if you know you might loose.
Only fight against corps you know you could beat and not take on the tougher corps, would kinda be like the corp battles of old
Many many no shows and people ducking fights.
Taste I advocated for passive is to be gone months ago until i realized it doesn't make the game better it just punishes corps and players. I tried many of time to come up with different ways to make it better but gave up. PC 1.0 is a piece of **** and needs to go.
What you said is right if you cant win or could lose why fight you just lose isk. So we go back to grinding isk in pubs to fight in PC like we did back in open beta remember?
Sorry kane the idea is dead and you need to let it go. You dont have to save ccp from themselves because they designed a ******* **** game mode not you.
Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3305
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:While this is an interesting concept, let play it out a few months.
1 st question after you take a district could you sell the clones off it and abandon the district?
It would seem to encourage more corps to just no show battles why put the effort into holding it if you know you might loose.
Only fight against corps you know you could beat and not take on the tougher corps, would kinda be like the corp battles of old
Many many no shows and people ducking fights.
No passive means selling clones gets you nothing. Essentially the clone sale value gets turned to 0 or 1 ISK and biomass gets ramped up to 200k from 100k.
Beers, no, not turning PC into an ISK sink because the biomass value would be increased. So for example killing off a 450 clone cargo hub would net each player involved at least 5.625 million ISK.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
1721
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing.
All of this sounds great. It would keep PC from being an ISK printing press. It would be possible to lose ISK on PC... ... ... But the phrasing of that second paragraph tells me that you don't actually support this idea. That this post is a front and your vested interests are to keep PC making millions of ISK for AE without having to do very much of anything.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3306
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Free Beers wrote: Sorry kane the idea is dead and you need to let it go. You dont have to save ccp from themselves because they designed a ******* **** game mode not you.
As long as I have the CPM tag and even after I'm still going to do what I can to make the game better for the community. I may be crazy or naive, but at this point I'm following it through to the end.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1238
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
as it stands pc generated isk is going to die anyway once eve pilots are able to claim the land and start paying us to take it for them. i think its best to get that ball rolling now so when it does happen we dont have a huge change and a lot of rage.
what ccp needs to do is take all of M.H districts back and create a contract system with actual isk rewards in it for a win.
it should be made by dummy corps until eve players can take over and the contracts put at different values so mercs can choose which ones to fight. obviously different sides of the contracts would be different values so as to get players fighting for the best ones.
this needs to be done as it will bring a bit off balance and put all of the reward in the battles won and not in the passive isk gained.
give us a new stats on the leaderboard for contracts won and loss
when eve pilots finally put contracts out for us they can see who is the better bet for them
I will logi the s* out of you
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3306
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Kain Spero wrote:If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing. All of this sounds great. It would keep PC from being an ISK printing press. It would be possible to lose ISK on PC... ... ... But the phrasing of that second paragraph tells me that you don't actually support this idea. That this post is a front and your vested interests are to keep PC making millions of ISK for AE without having to do very much of anything.
Just identifying the realities that will result. If the change gets more people playing PC then I see it as a positive change, but if eliminating passive ISK turns PC into a ghost town because no one wants to actually hold land then it would be a mistake.
I've alway hated passive ISK and you can look through my posting history to validate that.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
|
VALCORE72
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
138
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
sure as long as eve can move clones for pc and a isk wipe befor market hits lol 1 will never happen |
SteelDark Knight
Ancient Exiles.
Dirt Nap Squad.
352
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Kain Spero wrote:If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing. All of this sounds great. It would keep PC from being an ISK printing press. It would be possible to lose ISK on PC... ... ... But the phrasing of that second paragraph tells me that you don't actually support this idea. That this post is a front and your vested interests are to keep PC making millions of ISK for AE without having to do very much of anything.
You do know that DNS the majority landholders in PC is much more than AE, right? |
Thumb Green
THE STAR BORN
892
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:HowDidThatTaste wrote:While this is an interesting concept, let play it out a few months.
1 st question after you take a district could you sell the clones off it and abandon the district?
It would seem to encourage more corps to just no show battles why put the effort into holding it if you know you might loose.
Only fight against corps you know you could beat and not take on the tougher corps, would kinda be like the corp battles of old
Many many no shows and people ducking fights. No passive means selling clones gets you nothing. Essentially the clone sale value gets turned to 0 or 1 ISK and biomass gets ramped up to 200k from 100k. Beers, no, not turning PC into an ISK sink because the biomass value would be increased. So for example killing off a 450 clone cargo hub would net each player involved at least 5.625 million ISK.
But only if they win.
Support Orbital Spawns
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Leonid Tybalt
Inner.Hell
456
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
No? What incentive is there if you can't make isk of it?
New Eden = capitalism. If there's no capital to be made of an endavour, then there's no reason doing it.
That said "holding" districts should be a matter of actual FIGHTING. Not district locking bullshit as it is now... |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
912
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing.
Funny that the CPM comes up with that after some well known Corps have exploited PC like hell. So in all honesty PC is dead and no matter what CCP will do it will stay so. The Corps currently holding the majority of Molden Heath are by now so rich they could deny anyone access to PC no matter what CCP will do or change.
Sadly any change made will hurt new corps more than the ones currently farming ISK. With CCP's quite tolerant stance towards exploiters they have killed their most anticipated gamemode and CCP should feel bad. The sadest part they knew about the possible exploits from day one  .
But back to the topic what would be the alternative to passive ISK? Fighting just to hold some land for prestige? Don't get me wrong IMHO the current implemetation is awfull but without connection to the EVE market I see no point in grabbing land without passive ISK. I would love to have a reason other than ISK but I don't think CCP can come up with a solution to the fiasko they let happen... |
Leonid Tybalt
Inner.Hell
456
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing.
It's funny how the figurehead of the most notorious district locking group in Molden Heath starts talking about having to "fight" for your land.  |
VALCORE72
NECROM0NGERS
Caps and Mercs
138
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
just feels like personal gain and i dont think thats what hes trying to say . bad rep goes a long way even when they are spot on right |
Free Beers
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2301
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:as it stands pc generated isk is going to die anyway once eve pilots are able to claim the land and start paying us to take it for them. i think its best to get that ball rolling now so when it does happen we dont have a huge change and a lot of rage.
what ccp needs to do is take all of M.H districts back and create a contract system with actual isk rewards in it for a win.
it should be made by dummy corps until eve players can take over and the contracts put at different values so mercs can choose which ones to fight. obviously different sides of the contracts would be different values so as to get players fighting for the best ones.
this needs to be done as it will bring a bit off balance and put all of the reward in the battles won and not in the passive isk gained.
give us a new stats on the leaderboard for contracts won and loss
when eve pilots finally put contracts out for us they can see who is the better bet for them
Adam thats to many assumptions CCP has only said the idea of PC 2.0 is completely different than the existing design, but thats all (per ccp lockingbro)
I have always advocated for mercs working for and with eve groups to do good stuff in new eden. Kane it just trying to find something to improve pc 1.0 till pc 2.0 comes. To me him trying to improve pc no means there is no pc 2.0 coming anytime soon.
Still no passive isk is worse than passive isk. We had that in open beta and you had to grind pub isk to play in PC. Most poeple just burnt out and stopped
Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3307
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:
Funny that the CPM comes up with that after some well known Corps have exploited PC like hell.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1036443#post1036443
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1130521#post1130521
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1207023#post1207023
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1412859#post1412859
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Outlaw OneZero
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1441
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing.
Honestly, if you want more fights you need to lower the cost of clone packs not raise it. If you increase payouts, remove passive ISK generation and reduce clone pack costs then you'll see a lot more people fighting in PC. |
Mortishai Belmont
G.L.O.R.Y
RISE of LEGION
112
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well, your problem there are these super corps (dirtnap) who are holding lots of districts already and have generated mass amounts of isk. So they would still have the advantage and make it close to impossible for smaller corps to have a fighting chance.
Besides, bringing in ringers is kind of what Dust is about right? It's all about us being mercs, what does a merc do, if not fight others battle for money?
Though, I think having the defenders pay for installations for defence would be a nice touch.
On a side note, installations should have plate shielding for the lower parts, lest they just be tank fodder for every match.
To answer the question though, yes, I would die for my land because it is mine without pay. Though if there is no benefit to actually holding the land, most people would see no purpose in it.
G.L.O.R.Y solider,
Master of the Gallente Heavy
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Free Beers
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2301
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing. It's funny how the figurehead of the most notorious district locking group in Molden Heath starts talking about having to "fight" for your land.
You do realize that kane runs ERA right? Not NS or AE or the other BIG corps at the time. The only corp that was actually attacking districts during the lock out? ERA history
You kids really believe whatever you make up in your head?
Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
|
ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1238
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Free Beers wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:as it stands pc generated isk is going to die anyway once eve pilots are able to claim the land and start paying us to take it for them. i think its best to get that ball rolling now so when it does happen we dont have a huge change and a lot of rage.
what ccp needs to do is take all of M.H districts back and create a contract system with actual isk rewards in it for a win.
it should be made by dummy corps until eve players can take over and the contracts put at different values so mercs can choose which ones to fight. obviously different sides of the contracts would be different values so as to get players fighting for the best ones.
this needs to be done as it will bring a bit off balance and put all of the reward in the battles won and not in the passive isk gained.
give us a new stats on the leaderboard for contracts won and loss
when eve pilots finally put contracts out for us they can see who is the better bet for them Adam thats to many assumptions CCP has only said the idea of PC 2.0 is completely different than the existing design, but thats all (per ccp lockingbro) I have always advocated for mercs working for and with eve groups to do good stuff in new eden. Kane it just trying to find something to improve pc 1.0 till pc 2.0 comes. To me him trying to improve pc no means there is no pc 2.0 coming anytime soon. Still no passive isk is worse than passive isk. We had that in open beta and you had to grind pub isk to play in PC. Most poeple just burnt out and stopped
oh ok.. simple then.
pay mercs who win in clones. they generate clone packs to the owning corp. these clone packs should then be allowed to be traded with other mercs. this way no passive isk however isk already in game is being transferred about.
no passive isk but supply of clones would generate income and also allow others to attack the suppliers.
everyone wins.
I will logi the s* out of you
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3307
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Outlaw OneZero wrote:Kain Spero wrote:I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing. Honestly, if you want more fights you need to lower the cost of clone packs not raise it. If you increase payouts, remove passive ISK generation and reduce clone pack costs then you'll see a lot more people fighting in PC.
You can't have the per clone cost in a clone pack be less than the payout for biomass. If you do you end up with people clone pack attacking in order to kill the clone pack and make ISK.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
1660
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
The problem with PC is that it's trying to simplify a game mode that should be complex. Things take place in New Eden but geography and the market have no bearing on anything? They should just bring back corp battles, and scrap PC until there is some meaningful connection to EVE, because right now one alliance is trying to make themselves the only ones people can fight and quite frankly the rest of us get really tired of fighting the exact same people. The most fun my corp has had in a long time has been switching a districts back and forth with Eternal beings. It's not about making money or avoiding fights, it about having a place to have fun, and anyone who thinks they can give us more fun by taking all the districts is an ass.
So take away the ISK incentive and I could still see it being fun for people who play DUST for fights and not for farmville. In the end what is 3 billion ISK if you can't have fun?
Supporter of tiericide, EVE interaction, and a proper NPE SoonGäó514
"No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3307
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:
oh ok.. simple then.
pay mercs who win in clones. they generate clone packs to the owning corp. these clone packs should then be allowed to be traded with other mercs. this way no passive isk however isk already in game is being transferred about.
no passive isk but supply of clones would generate income and also allow others to attack the suppliers.
everyone wins.
Problem is that changes like this are not so simple. Changes numbers from 110,000 to 1 is simple as is 120 to 150. With the resources available right now to address PC we'll be lucky to even get those kinds of changes.
The question is simple. If you only got money from biomass would you fight to hold land?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Outlaw OneZero
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1443
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Outlaw OneZero wrote:Kain Spero wrote:I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing. Honestly, if you want more fights you need to lower the cost of clone packs not raise it. If you increase payouts, remove passive ISK generation and reduce clone pack costs then you'll see a lot more people fighting in PC. You can't have the per clone cost in a clone pack be less than the payout for biomass. If you do you end up with people clone pack attacking in order to kill the clone pack and make ISK.
So remove biomass as the payout basis, link it to salvage and the total cost of gear spent on the match. Winner gets XX% of total expenditure on match. |
Free Beers
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2303
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:Free Beers wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:as it stands pc generated isk is going to die anyway once eve pilots are able to claim the land and start paying us to take it for them. i think its best to get that ball rolling now so when it does happen we dont have a huge change and a lot of rage.
what ccp needs to do is take all of M.H districts back and create a contract system with actual isk rewards in it for a win.
it should be made by dummy corps until eve players can take over and the contracts put at different values so mercs can choose which ones to fight. obviously different sides of the contracts would be different values so as to get players fighting for the best ones.
this needs to be done as it will bring a bit off balance and put all of the reward in the battles won and not in the passive isk gained.
give us a new stats on the leaderboard for contracts won and loss
when eve pilots finally put contracts out for us they can see who is the better bet for them Adam thats to many assumptions CCP has only said the idea of PC 2.0 is completely different than the existing design, but thats all (per ccp lockingbro) I have always advocated for mercs working for and with eve groups to do good stuff in new eden. Kane it just trying to find something to improve pc 1.0 till pc 2.0 comes. To me him trying to improve pc no means there is no pc 2.0 coming anytime soon. Still no passive isk is worse than passive isk. We had that in open beta and you had to grind pub isk to play in PC. Most poeple just burnt out and stopped oh ok.. simple then. pay mercs who win in clones. they generate clone packs to the owning corp. these clone packs should then be allowed to be traded with other mercs. this way no passive isk however isk already in game is being transferred about. no passive isk but supply of clones would generate income and also allow others to attack the suppliers. everyone wins.
CCP put in clones because there was an old rule that dust couldn't use any existing eve resources (dust can't negatively effect eve economy) with intention of dust of selling them to eve. It was terrible because what you fight with is your only income. So CCP built in fight OR make isk. I can't begin to tell you how many times i want to punch ccp foxfour (Not literally I love foxy its just a figure of speech MR Banhammer) It was just a terrible idea to begin with.
That said, I highly doubt there will be dust mercs selling clones going forward. The clone production and use for fighting works okay right now. CCP needs to come up with another way to bring isk into PC for mercs. Trying to do both with 1 thing is terrible idea.
/rant
Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
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