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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3305
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Posted - 2014.04.14 15:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3305
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Posted - 2014.04.14 15:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:While this is an interesting concept, let play it out a few months.
1 st question after you take a district could you sell the clones off it and abandon the district?
It would seem to encourage more corps to just no show battles why put the effort into holding it if you know you might loose.
Only fight against corps you know you could beat and not take on the tougher corps, would kinda be like the corp battles of old
Many many no shows and people ducking fights.
No passive means selling clones gets you nothing. Essentially the clone sale value gets turned to 0 or 1 ISK and biomass gets ramped up to 200k from 100k.
Beers, no, not turning PC into an ISK sink because the biomass value would be increased. So for example killing off a 450 clone cargo hub would net each player involved at least 5.625 million ISK.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3306
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Posted - 2014.04.14 15:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Free Beers wrote: Sorry kane the idea is dead and you need to let it go. You dont have to save ccp from themselves because they designed a ******* **** game mode not you.
As long as I have the CPM tag and even after I'm still going to do what I can to make the game better for the community. I may be crazy or naive, but at this point I'm following it through to the end.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3306
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 15:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Kain Spero wrote:If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing. All of this sounds great. It would keep PC from being an ISK printing press. It would be possible to lose ISK on PC... ... ... But the phrasing of that second paragraph tells me that you don't actually support this idea. That this post is a front and your vested interests are to keep PC making millions of ISK for AE without having to do very much of anything.
Just identifying the realities that will result. If the change gets more people playing PC then I see it as a positive change, but if eliminating passive ISK turns PC into a ghost town because no one wants to actually hold land then it would be a mistake.
I've alway hated passive ISK and you can look through my posting history to validate that.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3307
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Posted - 2014.04.14 16:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:
Funny that the CPM comes up with that after some well known Corps have exploited PC like hell.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1036443#post1036443
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1130521#post1130521
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1207023#post1207023
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1412859#post1412859
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3307
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Outlaw OneZero wrote:Kain Spero wrote:I've heard lots of different views on the issue, but I would like to hear as many opinions as possible. If there was no passive ISK and you only got ISK from fighting would you want to hold land?
This would also be in light of increasing clone pack sizes back to their original 150 at the current 300k per clone cost. Fighting getting you double what you receive now but no passive ISK to prop up payroll, vehicle reimbursement, or the hiring of ringers. The only issue is you only collect the payment when you win your fights and if you can't win your fights you end up with nothing. Honestly, if you want more fights you need to lower the cost of clone packs not raise it. If you increase payouts, remove passive ISK generation and reduce clone pack costs then you'll see a lot more people fighting in PC.
You can't have the per clone cost in a clone pack be less than the payout for biomass. If you do you end up with people clone pack attacking in order to kill the clone pack and make ISK.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3307
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 16:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:
oh ok.. simple then.
pay mercs who win in clones. they generate clone packs to the owning corp. these clone packs should then be allowed to be traded with other mercs. this way no passive isk however isk already in game is being transferred about.
no passive isk but supply of clones would generate income and also allow others to attack the suppliers.
everyone wins.
Problem is that changes like this are not so simple. Changes numbers from 110,000 to 1 is simple as is 120 to 150. With the resources available right now to address PC we'll be lucky to even get those kinds of changes.
The question is simple. If you only got money from biomass would you fight to hold land?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3310
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Posted - 2014.04.14 16:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Denn Maell wrote:
But, yes. No passive isk generation would mean I would still be interested in PC (provided PC Lag were addressed and other incentives were in place).
The only incentive that would come out of this situation would be the ISK paid to those in match from biomass on the victory screen and the loot that each side gets.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3310
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Posted - 2014.04.14 16:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Maybe for a while the reward should just be having your corp's name on the deed until something better is worked out. Let the ownership just be bragging rights or some other thing that doesn't discourage players from playing. I will think more about it but it is a very difficult situation.
The potential problem I see is this change goes in and then we end up with no one wanting land. I'm not sure if prestige is enough.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3312
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Posted - 2014.04.14 18:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Guys, just to be clear again we are likely looking on only being able to get simple number changes to what we currently have. Right now the current potential numbers floating are as follows:
Plan One: Passive Reduction
*Greatly reduce clone sale price (passive ISK) and increase Biomass price: something like 40-60k clone sale and 160-180k biomass
Plan Two: Passive Elimination
*Reduce clone sale price (passive ISK) to effectively 0 and double biomass price to 200-210k
Paired with both these plans would be a clone pack size increase to 150 clones at a cost of 300k per clone to prevent self-attacks for locking or ISK farming by killing the clone pack.
*******
While I hate passive ISK, my concern is still that eliminating it may lead to negative effects on participation in PC.
The side benefit of turning off passive ISK all together is that it could allow a new region to be opened up without the concern of passive ISK bleeding into the Dust economy from the PC system on an even larger scale.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3315
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Posted - 2014.04.14 22:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:
The negative affects of these options is welcome because to the community, the coalition your involved in has negatively affected everyone else by denying them a chance to fight. So according to the community, anything that will remove DNS & N-F form PC will be greatly welcomed by all. (If you want to know where I though of this, look through the forums and see how much complaining small corps are doing).
The current land holders will adapt and overcome as they always have, so these changes wouldn't remove them from participating in PC. My concern is that this could reduce or eliminate corps, especially new ones, working towards getting involved in Planetary Conquest since the promise of wealth from passive ISK would be gone. Now what we are looking at is the incentive being that players work towards forming strong organizations to fight others in order to get ISK and that could very well be a positive direction.
You have to understand that having land has the inherent negative of the game basically saying, "You will play at X time if someone chooses to attack you or you will loose this land." That negative is offset by the passive ISK and the corp programs like payroll and vehicle replacement that it can fund. As a result when you remove passive ISK entirely is could lead many corps not even trying to enter the PC arena because there is no way to set off the entry costs.
I guess it comes down to whether or not the negatives of turning off passive are outweighed by it's benefits.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3321
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Posted - 2014.04.15 17:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:I don't think anyone would fight with PC 1.0 mechanics if passive ISK was taken away. Why would someone spend 100 or so million taking a district if there was no return on investment?
Now if clone packs were 5 or 10 million ISK AND passive ISK was taken away, I'd say hell yeah people would fight. But this would be glorified corp battles solely on the basis of wanting to play in a team deploy setting. It would take away any and all conquest strategy out of PC (of which there was little anyway).
Even if there was no passive you still have to put the per clone price in a pack over the cost of biomass and I doubt anyone would enjoy that being reduced from 100k to 25 or 60k.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3321
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Posted - 2014.04.15 19:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Have a go? where it costs 50mil per attack?
It means only the rich can wage war while the peasents are left to pubs
I said that on page 1 and we have gone around in a full circle now If you'd read my other posts you'd know I'm also for drastically reducing clone pack price. In fact I stated as much in the part of my post that you didn't quote.
The issue there is if you make clone packs even cheaper than the are now we are going to be right back where we were with 1.7 with 90% of Molden Heath locked under self -attacks except this time you'll have players running the mock battles to extract ISK. Unfortunately this enumerates one of the core problems which is clones being both the thing you use to fight AND your source of income.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3321
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 19:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote: But if there is no passive ISK from the districts why would you lock them?
If you are looking at 5 mil a lock but a match pays out 16 to 32 mil or more per mock battle then you could easily manage to lock everything down or just enough to easily prevent any kind of timer stacking while providing content to your members and ISK. Heck even with 36 million ISK clone packs Enternal Beings and KEQ did just this running battles on their district on Oddelulf and letting the district pass back and forth.
Better still, or worse, you lock half or more of your districts and then let the others come under attack from a mass wave of cheap clone packs and you just sit back and farm the battles in easily managed chunks.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3321
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Posted - 2014.04.15 20:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote: But if there is no passive ISK from the districts why would you lock them? If you are looking at 5 mil a lock but a match pays out 16 to 32 mil or more per mock battle then you could easily manage to lock everything down or just enough to easily prevent any kind of timer stacking while providing content to your members and ISK. Heck even with 36 million ISK clone packs Enternal Beings and KEQ did just this running battles on their district on Oddelulf and letting the district pass back and forth. Better still, or worse, you lock half or more of your districts and then let the others come under attack from a mass wave of cheap clone packs and you just sit back and farm the battles in easily managed chunks. If I had to guess KEQ and Eternal Beings just don't want to give you 100% of MH.
Maybe so, but what it proves is that given the proper motivation (whether that is ISK or denying an enemy an asset) the player behavior will occur.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
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Kain Spero
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3340
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Posted - 2014.04.16 14:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
The meeting with CCP went very well.
I think CCP understands that there are complex issues regarding Planetary Conquest with some potentially straight forward changes that could improve the situation. The most important of these issues being passive ISK and clone pack size.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
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