DUST Search - [Request] Medium frame (basic/assault/logistics) changes

Aero Yassavi wrote:

When you look at new Sentinel, Commando, and Scout stats the Amarr actually have equalized module slots compared to other races. Just some food for thought.

Your proposal of Amarr assault/logi going from 2/2 at standard to 2/4 at advanced seems odd. In my opinion you should never gain multiple module slots as you increase tier, let alone multiple slots in the same category (high, low).

Regarding the Caldari Logi, I actually suggest it loses the extra module to have equalized module slots and gains a sidearm instead of equipment. This is mainly because of the racial bonus. Similar to the Amarr who have a bonus to an equipment you simply lay down and forget about, what makes you not want to use a different logi after those equipment are layed down? In Amarr's case its the sidearm, so a sidearm for Caldari Logi would be better than a 4th equipment in my opinion.

Also it sounds like STD Amarr logi and STD Amarr medium are the same thing? 1 Light, 1 sidearm, 2 equipment?

Lastly just want to add emphasis on your proposal for MLT changes. CCP please do not forget that MLT suits exist! Help the NPE and give these better slot layouts. 2H 0L for Amarr medium MLT? Who thought that one up?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 245	Posted - 2014.03.13 09:45:00 - [31] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever. I guess they now aren't as ******** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements. For the most part basic suits have always been bonus-less copies of specialized suits. I don't like it, and I think its a problem for reasons I explained in the OP. Up until now they were more expensive. So no, they weren't exact copies.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 9927	Posted - 2014.03.13 16:04:00 - [32] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever. I guess they now aren't as ****** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements. For the most part basic suits have always been bonus-less copies of specialized suits. I don't like it, and I think its a problem for reasons I explained in the OP. Up until now they were more expensive. So no, they weren't exact copies. They said nothing about lowering the prices. Saying they're copies or identical refers to the base stats and slots, not the price. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt** Gû¦Gû+
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 246	Posted - 2014.03.13 18:38:00 - [33] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: They said nothing about lowering the prices. Saying they're copies or identical refers to the base stats and slots, not the price. But the posted spreadsheets include prices. "Identical stats" in that context sounds like "The spreadsheet also applies to basic suits".
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 9928	Posted - 2014.03.13 19:11:00 - [34] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: They said nothing about lowering the prices. Saying they're copies or identical refers to the base stats and slots, not the price. But the posted spreadsheets include prices. "Identical stats" in that context sounds like "The spreadsheet also applies to basic suits". I really hope the prices are the same and that you are right, but I have serious doubts. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 247	Posted - 2014.03.13 21:16:00 - [35] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: They said nothing about lowering the prices. Saying they're copies or identical refers to the base stats and slots, not the price. But the posted spreadsheets include prices. "Identical stats" in that context sounds like "The spreadsheet also applies to basic suits". I really hope the prices are the same and that you are right, but I have serious doubts. Yeah, maybe I'm too optimistic. It wouldn't surprise me either way.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 9944	Posted - 2014.03.15 02:15:00 - [36] - Quote Any more thoughts? Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 9954	Posted - 2014.03.15 12:20:00 - [37] - Quote /me adds more comment slots in the tread Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 263	Posted - 2014.03.17 05:52:00 - [38] - Quote Bump. Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 460	Posted - 2014.03.17 07:42:00 - [39] - Quote Solution. Reverse advanced and proto logi layours with they're assault counter parts. So all proto assaults have most slots and advanced assaults are either equal or better. No reason for a logi to have more equipment slots and same slots as per your suggestion. Sidearm doesn't make up for the improved fitting capabilities of a logi. I'd rather gave an assault suit with no sidearm and the room to fit whatever I want. Which is what the logi does. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 9964	Posted - 2014.03.17 07:57:00 - [40] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Solution. Reverse advanced and proto logi layouts with their assault counter parts. So all proto assaults have most slots and advanced assaults are either equal or better. No reason for a logi to have more equipment slots and same slots as per your suggestion. Sidearm doesn't make up for the improved fitting capabilities of a logi. I'd rather gave an assault suit with no sidearm and the room to fit whatever I want. Which is what the logi does. Logis don't just have the lack of sidearm, they also have less base HP, less speed, less stamina. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

xAckie Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 419	Posted - 2014.03.17 09:28:00 - [41] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Make logis & assaults have the same number of module slots. Generally by raising assault slots, not nerfing logis. this makes sense. (not sure about medium frames getting an extra equipment slot). (Assaults should have faster shield recharge) The assault bonuses shouldnt have been racial weapons based but on what type of suit they were (shield / armour / speed etc) I think CCP are going to mess the dropsuit respec up by handing it out too early before the planned changes to module slots, which they have said wont happen in 1.8 so at least 3-6 months away. The module changes will change suit balance more than the bonus changes. CCP really are making a rod for their own back.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 119	Posted - 2014.03.17 11:07:00 - [42] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever. I guess they now aren't as ******** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements. The last sentence is quite true. The one thing for me is why would I want to use a basic suit with no bonus. Does anyone use them? I suppose CCP will have that data. If they are the step before proto why not give them watered down bonus from the proto suits they are meant to precede? Anyhow OP looks ok. CCP need to look at slot layout for medium frames, hopefully soon GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥ GÇò Frank Zappa
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 251	Posted - 2014.03.17 13:51:00 - [43] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: The last sentence is quite true. The one thing for me is why would I want to use a basic suit with no bonus. Does anyone use them? I suppose CCP will have that data. I used the basic medium when I didn't know that specializations get bonuses, are flat-out better and also cheaper. As a newbie, I was making loses with my 20k fits. When I finally got assault, I was suddenly running at half that price. The mechanic is completely broken. Specializations should be more expensive, not less and be better at their niche and worse at being allrounders. Just like the OP proposes, with additional equipment slots to make them semi-logis. However, how would a proper basic heavy work? How do you create a suit that sits between Heavy and Sentinel? For a basic light, I'd imagine only a single equipment slot, but generally less fragile than a scout.
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 1080	Posted - 2014.03.17 14:50:00 - [44] - Quote I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to add that the standard scouts now have one more module slot and the same number of equipment slots as the standard Cal Logi (in addition to having a sidearm). The Amarr logi's layout is equal in slot count (and identical in slot layout to the Minmatar scout). I find that quite odd.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 9971	Posted - 2014.03.17 16:07:00 - [45] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to add that the standard scouts now have one more module slot and the same number of equipment slots as the standard Cal Logi (in addition to having a sidearm). The Amarr logi's layout is equal in slot count (and identical in slot layout to the Minmatar scout). I find that quite odd. The numbers I suggest make the Amarr module slot counts the same as the other races instead of being less, and I proposed to make the Caldari logi start at 3 equipment slots instead of 2. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10011	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:09:00 - [46] - Quote Do it Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7607	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:44:00 - [47] - Quote When you look at new Sentinel, Commando, and Scout stats the Amarr actually have equalized module slots compared to other races. Just some food for thought. Your proposal of Amarr assault/logi going from 2/2 at standard to 2/4 at advanced seems odd. In my opinion you should never gain multiple module slots as you increase tier, let alone multiple slots in the same category (high, low). Regarding the Caldari Logi, I actually suggest it loses the extra module to have equalized module slots and gains a sidearm instead of equipment. This is mainly because of the racial bonus. Similar to the Amarr who have a bonus to an equipment you simply lay down and forget about, what makes you not want to use a different logi after those equipment are layed down? In Amarr's case its the sidearm, so a sidearm for Caldari Logi would be better than a 4th equipment in my opinion. Also it sounds like STD Amarr logi and STD Amarr medium are the same thing? 1 Light, 1 sidearm, 2 equipment? Lastly just want to add emphasis on your proposal for MLT changes. CCP please do not forget that MLT suits exist! Help the NPE and give these better slot layouts. 2H 0L for Amarr medium MLT? Who thought that one up? "You're not even Aero, you're just Aero's friend."
xAckie Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 420	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:48:00 - [48] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Regarding the Caldari Logi, I actually suggest it loses the extra module to have equalized module slots and gains a sidearm instead of equipment. This is mainly because of the racial bonus. Similar to the Amarr who have a bonus to an equipment you simply lay down and forget about, what makes you not want to use a different logi after those equipment are layed down? In Amarr's case its the sidearm, so a sidearm for Caldari Logi would be better than a 4th equipment in my opinion. your turning it into an assault we need differentiation
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10013	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:56:00 - [49] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: When you look at new Sentinel, Commando, and Scout stats the Amarr actually have equalized module slots compared to other races. Just some food for thought. Your proposal of Amarr assault/logi going from 2/2 at standard to 2/4 at advanced seems odd. In my opinion you should never gain multiple module slots as you increase tier, let alone multiple slots in the same category (high, low). Regarding the Caldari Logi, I actually suggest it loses the extra module to have equalized module slots and gains a sidearm instead of equipment. This is mainly because of the racial bonus. Similar to the Amarr who have a bonus to an equipment you simply lay down and forget about, what makes you not want to use a different logi after those equipment are layed down? In Amarr's case its the sidearm, so a sidearm for Caldari Logi would be better than a 4th equipment in my opinion. Also it sounds like STD Amarr logi and STD Amarr medium are the same thing? 1 Light, 1 sidearm, 2 equipment? Lastly just want to add emphasis on your proposal for MLT changes. CCP please do not forget that MLT suits exist! Help the NPE and give these better slot layouts. 2H 0L for Amarr medium MLT? Who thought that one up? You knew I was updating the slot thing to be a less steep progression, I told you on Skype, you could have just waited . Anyway the proposal is now that module slots increment by one per tier. New proposal: Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equipment for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equipment for logi) Min: 4/4 Basic medium MLT (high/low/equipment) Am: 2/2/2 Ga: 1/3/2 Ca: 3/1/2 Min: 2/1/2 Basic medium STD Am: 2/3/2 Ga: 2/3/2 Ca: 3/2/2 Min: 3/2/2 Basic medium ADV Am: 2/4/2 Ga: 2/4/2 Ca: 4/2/2 Min: 3/3/2 Basic medium PRO Am: 3/4/2 Ga: 2/5/2 Ca: 5/2/2 Min: 4/3/2 As for the sidearm proposal for the Caldari logi, I don't think its necessary. A for Amarr logi vs basic medium at standard tier: the modules are different, and logi gets a bonus to equipment. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7607	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:59:00 - [50] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You knew I was updating the slot thing to be a less steep progression, I told you on Skype, you could have just waited . But no one at CCP reads our Skype discussions. Just want to make sure I say it publicly: Don't increase slot counts by more than one per tier! "You're not even Aero, you're just Aero's friend."

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10013	Posted - 2014.03.18 16:02:00 - [51] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: You knew I was updating the slot thing to be a less steep progression, I told you on Skype, you could have just waited . But no one at CCP reads our Skype discussions. Just want to make sure I say it publicly: Don't increase slot counts by more than one per tier! But I was in the process of editing my post with the tier progression changes when you commented. Is typing on my phone now. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Meee One The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 569	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:58:00 - [52] - Quote FINALLY something besides "nerf da logees". As of the time of this posting +1!!!! I game over like a boss.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 2439	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:16:00 - [53] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever. I guess they now aren't as ****** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements. The last sentence is quite true. The one thing for me is why would I want to use a basic suit with no bonus. Does anyone use them? I suppose CCP will have that data. If they are the step before proto why not give them watered down bonus from the proto suits they are meant to precede? Anyhow OP looks ok. CCP need to look at slot layout for medium frames, hopefully soon The easy and logical (yes, I know.. CCP) answer is to make them 1/2 the price of the assault suit instead of double. I would totally use an ADV medium frame that only cost 3000 ISK for things like AV that no suits have great bonuses for. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics"** -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.2 Amarr victor!
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10125	Posted - 2014.03.25 14:58:00 - [54] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Sole Fenychs wrote: According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever. I guess they now aren't as ****** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements. The last sentence is quite true. The one thing for me is why would I want to use a basic suit with no bonus. Does anyone use them? I suppose CCP will have that data. If they are the step before proto why not give them watered down bonus from the proto suits they are meant to precede? Anyhow OP looks ok. CCP need to look at slot layout for medium frames, hopefully soon The easy and logical (yes, I know.. CCP) answer is to make them 1/2 the price of the assault suit instead of double. I would totally use an ADV medium frame that only cost 3000 ISK for things like AV that no suits have great bonuses for. I definitely want basics to be cheaper than specializations, though I didn't cover it in this thread because this one is just about slots. I did cover it in the thread I linked in the OP though. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt** Gû¦Gû+
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1250	Posted - 2014.03.28 15:28:00 - [55] - Quote currently assaults have higher base values but less hi/low slots compared to logi. beside the side arm the assault is alot less flexible due to that. imho this should be the other way around. assault should be the suit with alot of hi/low slots and all around decent base values while the logi should be the suit with high base HP, weaker other base values and less hi/low slots. that way the assault is the true flexible suit it is meant to be and the logi will be the support with good hp values carrying equipment.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10168	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:11:00 - [56] - Quote Updated OP. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 590	Posted - 2014.03.28 16:31:00 - [57] - Quote Assaults should be the hac's. Logistics should be logistics. Basics are any of the tech 1 hulls. Give assaults and logis 4 bonuses, 2 for medium skill and 2 for assault/logi skill. Basic get 2 weaker bonuses. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 7835	Posted - 2014.03.28 17:28:00 - [58] - Quote I approve of this. My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Boot Booter Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 335	Posted - 2014.03.28 22:00:00 - [59] - Quote I agree and I like the idea of making basic suits a viable option. Currently the slot number and layout makes no sense (ex. Min assault pro = 5/2, min logi pro = 4/4) what?? Fix assault and give them their intended role back. On a side note I see a lot of people saying assaults are supposed to be mediocre at everything. This makes zero sense given the "specific" role of every other specialized class. I think your idea with the basic medium frames fits more into the mediocre at everything role as a cross between assault and logi.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1355	Posted - 2014.03.28 23:56:00 - [60] - Quote I'm sure someone has already pointed this out but, just to make it more clear, med basic and assault frames would need a buff to CPU/PG inorder to make this increased slot layout plan viable. Besides that I feel like it is a decent solution. Fun > Realism



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