DUST Search - [Request] Medium frame (basic/assault/logistics) changes

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

[TL;DR]

The problems:

All other frame sizes increment in module slots by 1 per tier while the mediums have an unnecessarily high slot gap between tiers which makes lower tier mediums especially bad.

The Amarr medium suits have less slots than the others of the same tier without any justification unlike the Amarr suits in the other frame sizes, The Amarr suits also are too high-slot oriented despite Amarr being armor tanking (the militia Amarr medium frame only has high slots).

Logis completely suck compared to assaults in STD tier because of lack of slots.

Logis are comparatively too strong at PRO tier compared to assaults because they have more slots at proto, giving them a higher HP ceiling.

Basic medium frames are basically just assaults without bonuses, and they lose all purpose once you unlock the assault specialization. Furthermore, basic mediums let players test the assault role, yet unfairly do not let players test the logi role.

Solutions:

Make assaults and logis BOTH have 6 module slots at STD, 7 at ADV, and 8 at PRO tiers (most logis currently have at least 8 at PRO right now). My proposed numbers makes mod slot progression less steep between tiers, and solves the issue of logis being underpowered at STD tier.

Make assaults and logis BOTH have the same basic racial stats. This keeps support play viable while never allowing support frames to eclipse assault frames for 'slayer' roles.

Improve the racial and role skill buffs on assault frames with a particular eye to increasing their 'gank' in general. And pinning it specifically to their racially relevant weapons as much as possible while maintaining racial balance in game. (details)

In addition to logis & assaults having the same number of module slots, make them also have same slot layout.

Make all medium frames (basic/asault/logi) have generally more racially consistent slot layouts. For example, Amarr medium suits more low slots.

Make Amarr mediums have the same number of module slots as all other other mediums of the same tier and type (basic/assault/logi).

Make Cal logi have 3 equipment slots at STD, & 4 at PRO in exchange for losing 9th mod slot at PRO tier. This is to not screw them over in reducing their modules at PRO to 8 instead of 9.

Make basic medium frames gain an equipment slot, but have 1 less module slot than their logi & assault counterpart. This will give the basic mediums a generalist purpose so players can try both slayer and support playstyles before deciding if they want to me assault or logi. This would make the assaults truly specialized by comparison instead of being a basic frame with a bonus.

These changes would make assault vs logistics balanced at all tiers, making the assault's higher base HP actually matter, give basic mediums a purpose of being a good way to try both an assault & logi playstyles (instead of just assault playstyles), & solves the issue with Amarr slot layouts at MLT & STD tier. The increased number of slots at lower tiers, and higher tier (for assaults) will make medium frames competative with scouts.

Attention

Obviously PG/CPU should be tweaked Attention

Added edit

Obviously Equipment stats and fittings costs should be tweaked Attention

Both assaults & logis have the same mod slot counts: 6 STD, 7 ADV, 8 PRO. Most logis did not get a mod slot nerf in this plan Attention

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1452	Posted - 2014.06.06 01:53:00 - [151] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The TL;DR being - Bring logi base stats up to assault levels as assaults gain slots to match logi, then give assaults bonuses that add more 'gank' to their options as a counterbalance to the logi equipment slots. This keeps both Med specializations combat viable while making the assault always be the better slayer when comparing mirrored fits/specs. Thanks for the response and looking forward to your further thoughts here Do we have a contingency plan in case of "too much" Logi? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2263	Posted - 2014.06.06 02:19:00 - [152] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cross Atu wrote: The TL;DR being - Bring logi base stats up to assault levels as assaults gain slots to match logi, then give assaults bonuses that add more 'gank' to their options as a counterbalance to the logi equipment slots. This keeps both Med specializations combat viable while making the assault always be the better slayer when comparing mirrored fits/specs. Thanks for the response and looking forward to your further thoughts here Do we have a contingency plan in case of "too much" Logi? Well that would depend I suppose on what too much Logi means. If we're talking about too much Repair tool use, high alpha and/or AoE damage can fix that right up. If we're talking revives, well, first they'd have to work properly, but presuming we've gotten them fixed then adding a nominal WP award for killing a downed clone so they can't be revived seems a good option. If we're talking Uplinks... well, that doesn't take too much Logi as Logi aren't super common now and Uplinks are still quite prevalent. If we're talking scanners, that's a matter of proper eWar balance more than Logistics suits, if the scanner is balanced then things should be solid. If we're talking Proxy - They'd have to be more useful first If we're talking REs... well, our Scout friends can't have all the fun right If we're talking Hives, that could be a major spam problem especially considering the current state of hives. On this last count the best two things I have to offer are A) Fluxes and B) (since our nades keep getting nerfs) Add the ability to use Codebreakers of equal or higher level to hack deployed equipment and take control of it. These counter measures may or may not cover everything depending on the concern, but they seem like a good place to start. o7 Cross EDIT: The TL;DR is basically my final point about hives with the note that non-deploy equipment needs to have it's own proper balance and that's less about the frame than about the equipment itself. Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2129	Posted - 2014.06.06 03:15:00 - [153] - Quote This is something I've been harping about for quite some time now and I'm glad to see a similar idea. Frame Suits should be, in general, better than the specialized suits. The specialized suits are however significantly better than the frame within that specialization. The progression should feel like you have to give something up in order to gain something within that specialty, rather than simply gaining bonuses as you do now. This prevents specialization from being a direct upgrade in nearly every way, which is what we have now. I think even going as far as giving frame suits their own unique bonus would further make them non-obsolete. Perhaps a bonus to fitting to allow certain fits to only work on Frame suits, as well as make it a little easier for newer players to fit what they want without training the expensive PG/CPU skills right away. Very good to see your work, as always Kagehoshi. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 112	Posted - 2014.06.06 15:33:00 - [154] - Quote +1 to bad the drop suits weren't made that way from the beginning. Its a shame the dev's thought they could re-invent the races of new Eden and think that it would work out. If I told the devs to make a FPS of a space ship mmo I wouldn't give them the role playing racial descriptions I would of given them game play descriptions and stats of ships that are applicable to the game. I would write out game play descriptions of the races but the dev's have me on ignore I think or I should of chosen a different name. edit: ive been telling the dev's pretty much the same thing for months now but they think they know what their players want and yet they keep loosing them...... I don't even know why I bother.
Yoma Carrim Last VenDetta. Dark Taboo 563	Posted - 2014.06.06 21:14:00 - [155] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Spreadsheet here I hate to be the one too point this out KAGEHOSHI but your Caldari MLT Basic Frame is Running 3 lows not 1 to make it the opposite of the Gallente MLT Oh Heck
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1590	Posted - 2014.06.08 11:10:00 - [156] - Quote Haven't read the thread, just wanted to give you a 40th like for your thread since Imet you in game =) Still really tipsy, but off to read your thred. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1590	Posted - 2014.06.08 11:22:00 - [157] - Quote Ok, have read the thread and it is a masterpiece. One of the best yet. I would only like to mention a couple of things, all pertaining to the the basic frames. As you said, they cost more than specialized suits. I feel they should cost less than specialized suits. I t makes no sense for a middle-ground suit with no bonuses whatsoever to cost MORE than a suit with bonuses. A problem I see though is the basic heavy & light. How would you fit them? Would you give the basic heavy an equipment slot to make up for it's lack of damage resistances and lack of 2 (edit) light weapon slots? Would you be opposed to making scouts only have 2 sidearm slots and the basic light frames having 1 light and 1 sidearm to help with make up for the scout bonuses? PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11034	Posted - 2014.06.08 11:35:00 - [158] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Ok, have read the thread and it is a masterpiece. One of the best yet. I would only like to mention a couple of things, all pertaining to the the basic frames. As you said, they cost more than specialized suits. I feel they should cost less than specialized suits. I t makes no sense for a middle-ground suit with no bonuses whatsoever to cost MORE than a suit with bonuses. A problem I see though is the basic heavy & light. How would you fit them? Would you give the basic heavy an equipment slot to make up for it's lack of damage resistances and lack of 2 (edit) light weapon slots? Would you be opposed to making scouts only have 2 sidearm slots and the basic light frames having 1 light and 1 sidearm to help with make up for the scout bonuses? I actually would like for basic frames to have bonuses, I have a thread on it but kind of forgot until now: here it is. I want the basic frame bonus to stack with the specializations as well (so an assault would have the assault bonuses AND the basic medium bonus), so there would be incentive to skill past basic level 3. I have some ideas on how to make all basics frames from all sizes distinct from the specialization, I discuss them here; probably not perfect, but I think its a start. Basic heavy for example, I suggested removing sidearm and grenade, but add an equipment. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1591	Posted - 2014.06.08 11:39:00 - [159] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Ok, have read the thread and it is a masterpiece. One of the best yet. I would only like to mention a couple of things, all pertaining to the the basic frames. As you said, they cost more than specialized suits. I feel they should cost less than specialized suits. I t makes no sense for a middle-ground suit with no bonuses whatsoever to cost MORE than a suit with bonuses. A problem I see though is the basic heavy & light. How would you fit them? Would you give the basic heavy an equipment slot to make up for it's lack of damage resistances and lack of 2 (edit) light weapon slots? Would you be opposed to making scouts only have 2 sidearm slots and the basic light frames having 1 light and 1 sidearm to help with make up for the scout bonuses? I actually would like for basic frames to have bonuses, I have a thread on it but kind of forgot until now: here it is. I want the basic frame bonus to stack with the specializations as well (so an assault would have the assault bonuses AND the basic medium bonus), so there would be incentive to skill past basic level 3. I have some ideas on how to make all basics frames from all sizes distinct from the specialization, I discuss them here; probably not perfect, but I think its a start. Basic heavy for example, I suggested removing sidearm and grenade, but add an equipment. Will definately look into these once sobered up. Give me some time, I'll be back on this soon. Or SoonGäó at the absolute latest. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11036	Posted - 2014.06.08 11:39:00 - [160] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Ok, have read the thread and it is a masterpiece. One of the best yet. I would only like to mention a couple of things, all pertaining to the the basic frames. As you said, they cost more than specialized suits. I feel they should cost less than specialized suits. I t makes no sense for a middle-ground suit with no bonuses whatsoever to cost MORE than a suit with bonuses. A problem I see though is the basic heavy & light. How would you fit them? Would you give the basic heavy an equipment slot to make up for it's lack of damage resistances and lack of 2 (edit) light weapon slots? Would you be opposed to making scouts only have 2 sidearm slots and the basic light frames having 1 light and 1 sidearm to help with make up for the scout bonuses? I actually would like for basic frames to have bonuses, I have a thread on it but kind of forgot until now: here it is. I want the basic frame bonus to stack with the specializations as well (so an assault would have the assault bonuses AND the basic medium bonus), so there would be incentive to skill past basic level 3. I have some ideas on how to make all basics frames from all sizes distinct from the specialization, I discuss them here; probably not perfect, but I think its a start. Basic heavy for example, I suggested removing sidearm and grenade, but add an equipment. Will definately look into these once sobered up. Give me some time, I'll be back on this soon. Or SoonGäó at the absolute latest. Alright, and I really appreciate the kind words Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2304	Posted - 2014.06.08 15:03:00 - [161] - Quote Putting this here for those who skip the opening of the thread (you know who you are ). Also, adding a couple minor edits in light of conversations on these last few pages. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [TL;DR] The problems: All other frame sizes increment in module slots by 1 per tier while the mediums have an unnecessarily high slot gap between tiers which makes lower tier mediums especially bad. The Amarr medium suits have less slots than the others of the same tier without any justification unlike the Amarr suits in the other frame sizes, The Amarr suits also are too high-slot oriented despite Amarr being armor tanking (the militia Amarr medium frame only has high slots). Logis completely suck compared to assaults in STD tier because of lack of slots. Logis are comparatively too strong at PRO tier compared to assaults because they have more slots at proto, giving them a higher HP ceiling. Basic medium frames are basically just assaults without bonuses, and they lose all purpose once you unlock the assault specialization. Furthermore, basic mediums let players test the assault role, yet unfairly do not let players test the logi role. Solutions: Make assaults and logis BOTH have 6 module slots at STD, 7 at ADV, and 8 at PRO tiers (most logis currently have at least 8 at PRO right now). My proposed numbers makes mod slot progression less steep between tiers, and solves the issue of logis being underpowered at STD tier. Make assaults and logis BOTH have the same basic racial stats. This keeps support play viable while never allowing support frames to eclipse assault frames for 'slayer' roles. Improve the racial and role skill buffs on assault frames with a particular eye to increasing their 'gank' in general. And pinning it specifically to their racially relevant weapons as much as possible while maintaining racial balance in game. (details) In addition to logis & assaults having the same number of module slots, make them also have same slot layout. Make all medium frames (basic/asault/logi) have generally more racially consistent slot layouts. For example, Amarr medium suits more low slots. Make Amarr mediums have the same number of module slots as all other other mediums of the same tier and type (basic/assault/logi). Make Cal logi have 3 equipment slots at STD, & 4 at PRO in exchange for losing 9th mod slot at PRO tier. This is to not screw them over in reducing their modules at PRO to 8 instead of 9. Make basic medium frames gain an equipment slot, but have 1 less module slot than their logi & assault counterpart. This will give the basic mediums a generalist purpose so players can try both slayer and support playstyles before deciding if they want to me assault or logi. This would make the assaults truly specialized by comparison instead of being a basic frame with a bonus. These changes would make assault vs logistics balanced at all tiers, making the assault's higher base HP actually matter, give basic mediums a purpose of being a good way to try both an assault & logi playstyles (instead of just assault playstyles), & solves the issue with Amarr slot layouts at MLT & STD tier. The increased number of slots at lower tiers, and higher tier (for assaults) will make medium frames competative with scouts. Obviously PG/CPU should be tweaked Added edit Obviously Equipment stats and fittings costs should be tweaked Both assaults & logis have the same mod slot counts: 6 STD, 7 ADV, 8 PRO. Most logis did not get a mod slot nerf in this plan Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 547	Posted - 2014.06.08 15:55:00 - [162] - Quote Really nice work on this. As a frustrated assault diehard this really needs to happen. The best part is it is so easy to implement for ccp. With 4 high and 4 low on my min assault, assuming I have similar fitting limits as I do currently, (420 CPU and 84 PG currently, guessing around 462 and 92 respectively) my fit would be something like... 3x Com shield extenders 1x damage mod 1x Com plate 1x enh repair 1x Com ferroscale 1x profile damp 400 shield, 400 armor at 6 hp/s Would this be OP? SMG Specialist
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 338	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:36:00 - [163] - Quote what about a slot layout for amarr that gives them more low slots than the gallente? high/low std 1/4 adv 1/5 pro 1/6 id then buff the gallente native armor repair by just a bit. but the thought is that the amarr should be capable of the highest possible armor hp and prefer brick tanking vs gallente use of armor repair i dont think amarr and gallente should have equal slot layouts or have the same slot layout. from a lore standpoint they have different doctrines.
Khemlar Maktaar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 35	Posted - 2014.06.15 03:43:00 - [164] - Quote amazing post kagehoshi i was wondering if you would maybe be up to playing with me as i would love to chat to you about how you think suit bonuses and other numbers and stuff should be changed and shoot some people too^^
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 251	Posted - 2014.06.15 05:17:00 - [165] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Really nice work on this. As a frustrated assault diehard this really needs to happen. The best part is it is so easy to implement for ccp. With 4 high and 4 low on my min assault, assuming I have similar fitting limits as I do currently, (420 CPU and 84 PG currently, guessing around 462 and 92 respectively) my fit would be something like... 3x Com shield extenders 1x damage mod 1x Com plate 1x enh repair 1x Com ferroscale 1x profile damp 400 shield, 400 armor at 6 hp/s Would this be OP? Powerful suit in the right hands then it would be fantastic. Now in the terms of overpowered then no. Honestly this is balanced. You have 400 shields but with a 7% increase in shield depleted recharge delay per complex extender but you made up for it with the repair modules and plates coming in at 400 armor 800 total health. You just need to figure out what your sprint speed would be. Other than that I hope we get this in the upcoming hot fix because this would be awesome and your suit is also awesome. why ccp?
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 769	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:44:00 - [166] - Quote At PRO medium basic frames, you have the Amarr and Gallente slot layout swapped. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
The Eristic Dust 90210 479	Posted - 2014.06.17 08:51:00 - [167] - Quote 8 slots at Pro is just too many, imo (and a big part of the problem with Slayer Logis in the first place). Not enough real choices have to be made. 5 for Heavies (Commandos too, please!), 6 for Lights, 7 for Mediums. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3691	Posted - 2014.06.17 10:48:00 - [168] - Quote Assaults shouldn't have the same number of slots that logistics do :/ But I do agree that slot count should be much more balanced in terms of progression. Going up the tiers in terms of number of slots: Commandos should have 2/3/4 Sentinels should have 3/4/5 Scouts should have 4/5/6 Assaults should have 5/6/7 Logistics should have 6/7/8 Then obviously make them racially diverse...but the way Dust does it instead of EVE -Caldari has the most high slots -Gallente has the most low slots -Amarr is balanced, with preference towards low slots -Minmatar is balanced with preference towards high slots I understand that Amarr makes more sense to have 5 low slots at proto, but that would make the medium suits stand out compared to the rest of the game's suits. I'd rather keep the idea that caldari and gallente suits are mirror reflections, rather than Caldari and Amarr...even if it goes against EVE. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!


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