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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9859
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Posted - 2014.03.09 20:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I believe there are great problems with the slot layouts of the medium frames that need to be addressed which 1.8 failed to handle. "Tool long; didn't read" (TL;DR) version on bottom.
[Assault & logistics issues]
The slayer logi issue originates from the logis to tank more HP than their assault counterparts, allowing them to be more survivable killing platforms. This problem won't truly go away until the slots are handled correctly.
Logis sacrifice sidearms, a bit of mobility, & base shields in exchange for for 2 or 3 more equipment slots than their assault counterparts. That seems like a fair deal, but on top of the 2 or 3 more equipment slots, there is some crazy weirdness with the slot layouts that leads to imbalance.
- At standard (STD) tier all logistics (with the odd exception of the Amarr (Am) one) have inferior module slot layouts compared to the STD assault counterparts.
- At advanced (ADV) tier logis either get equal or superior module slot layouts compared to their ADV assault counterparts.
- At prototype (PRO) tier logis all gain an extra low slot than their PRO assault counterpart, the caldari one also gains an extra high slot also.
To sum up the above, logis are underpowered (UP) at STD tier, balanced or overpowered (OP) at ADV tier, & all OP at PRO.
There is no actual reason for the Caldari (Cal) one only having 2 equipment at STD instead of 3; it isn't gaining anything extra compared to other STD logis or its assault counterpart for that sacrifice. The STD Cal logi is UP, even compared to the other UP STD logis.
There is also the issue of the Am medium slot layouts. 1.8 has Am mediums shifting from hybrid tanking (equal shields & armor) to predominantly having armor; this requires a slot layout change of more low slots for effective armor tanking. Right now the progression of Am mediums is odd, they start with more high slots (2 at militia (MLT) & STD).
[Basic medium frame issues]
I would like to give basic frames a purpose, in 1.8 there is 36 STD-PRO basic frames; way too many suits in the game to have be completely useless. I say they are useless because for the most part they are inferior versions of the specialized suits (like assaults, logis, sentinels, etc), & they can't even be used as a way to save money since they're oddly more expensive (reversed for vehicles, specialized vehicles like assault dropsips cost more than the basic ones); there is just no reason to use a basic frame when you have unlock the specialization. We should never have 36 items that are worthless. For more on the basic frame issue go here.
The basic medium frames should be generalized middle-ground between the assault & logi, it would make the assault truly specialized by comparison instead of just being basic frames with bonuses slapped on. It would also give players the ability to test-drive both assault & logi roles before specializing; right now you can test out the assault role with a basic medium, but you can't test a logi role with their parent basic frame. The current set up is bad for testing roles.
[Solution]
Part 1: assault & logi
Give the Cal logistics 3 equipment slots at STD. Also 4 equipment at PRO (remove the extra high slot it gets over the assault, in addition to the extra low).
Undo the Am logi less equipment for a sidearm tradeoff. Remove the sidearm, give it 3 equipment slots at STD. Also 4 equipment at PRO (since it will no longer have the sidearm).
Equalize the module slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier:
Assault & logi STD (high/low)
Am: 2/2 (+1 equipment for logi)
Ga: 1/3
Ca: 3/1 (+1 equipment for logi)
Min: 2/2
Assault & logi ADV
Am: 2/4
Ga: 2/4
Ca: 4/2
Min: 3/3
Assault & logi PRO
Am: 3/5 (+1 equipment for logi)
Ga: 2/6
Ca: 5/3 (+1 equipment for logi)
Min: 4/4
Part 2: basic medium frames
To fix the aforementioned issue, I think basic medium frames should have:
One more equipment for a total of 2; this is why the Cal & Am STD logis should have at least 3 to start out with, it is to differentiate them from my proposed basic mediums.
1 less module slot than their assault & logi counterparts. This is a tradeoff for more module slots.
Basic medium MLT (high/low/equipment)
Am: 1/1/2
Ga: 0/2/2
Ca: 2/0/2
Min: 1/1/2
Basic medium STD
Am: 1/2/2
Ga: 0/3/2
Ca: 3/0/2
Min: 2/1/2
Basic medium ADV
Am: 2/3/2
Ga: 2/3/2
Ca: 3/2/2
Min: 3/2/2
Basic medium PRO
Am: 3/4/2
Ga: 2/5/2
Ca: 5/3/2
Min: 4/3/2
[TL;DR]
1.8 Am mediums still have more high slots than low slots at MLT & STD tier, despite being primarily armor tankers in 1.8. Give Am suits more low slots at MLT & STD tier.
Make logis & assaults have the same number of module slots.
Make medium frames gain an equipment slot, but have 1 less module slot than logis & assaults. This will give it purpose, & make the assaults truly specialized by comparison instead of being a basic frame with a bonus.
Make all logis have 3 equipment slots at STD to differentiate from scouts & the proposed new basic frames, & 4 at PRO; Am loses sidearm, and Cal loses crazy high PRO slots in exchange.
These changes would make assault vs logistics balanced at all tiers, making the assault's higher base HP actually matter, give basic mediums a purpose of being a good way to try both an assault & logi playstyles (instead of just assault playstyles), & solves the issue with Amarr slot layouts at MLT & STD tier.
*Likely requires Am logi & sideam respec*
Related dropsuit thread: Basic frames & specializations differentiation
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9859
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Posted - 2014.03.09 20:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9859
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Posted - 2014.03.09 21:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
General12912 wrote:you mentioned giving all logi's 3 equipment slots at the standard tier. i would agree if the minmatar logistics suit got 4 equipment slots instead of 3 (similar to how the amarr logistics got their sidearm slot at standard in one of the previous builds). Minmatar is supposed to have one slot more than the other logistics suits. if we are going to push the 3 equipment slots up to standard on the caldari and amarr logistics, you may as well push the 4th equipment slot in the minmatar logistics up to standard so it can keep up with them.
There is no standard of giving Minmatar more total slots than others of the same tier. The Gallente and Minmatar only had more slots than the Amarr and Caldari one because the Amarr one has a sidearm, and the Caldari one gets 9 module slots at proto; if the Amarr logis lose the sidearm, and the Caldari module slot count are normalized, then there is no reason to keep the Minmatar or Gallente ones having more.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9869
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Posted - 2014.03.10 03:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:I agree.
This is a perpetuating issue that needs fixing.
Low level logi's are ****, whereas high level proto logis are amaze-balls.
Fex et sesep!
Agreed
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9874
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Posted - 2014.03.10 07:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Any objections?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9882
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Posted - 2014.03.10 18:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
virgindestroyer7 wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:I think the only thing that is really out of balance between logis and assaults is the CPU/PG rating. Sure Logis need that CPU/PG for their equipment the problem come when you have o logi that don't care for equipment. Even though I think the problem is far less than most people want to make it.
The funny part is CCP already knows how to solve this, they did this with cloaks and scouts. So my solution would be be give logis the same CPU/PG like assaults and give them a bonus to equipment similar to the scouts cloak bonus. That way true logis would not be gimped but slayers logis could not tank much better than assaults. (They still can tank slightly better due to one additional slot but that seems balanced to me due to their other drawbacks) THIS. My problem with adding extra equipment slots then removing low slots is that I'm ALWAYS sacrificing something on my suit. I mean, if i have everything spec'd out IE shields, armor, eng, elec, fitting optimization, ETC ETC and i can't fit all proto equipment on my suit, I need that extra slot for a PG or CPU upgrade.
Both assaults and logis have 8 slots at prototype in my plan. I did not reduce the total module slot of any logi besides the Caldari one. I just raised the assault's to be matched.
Only the Caldari and Amarr one got extra equpment.
You should be aware that 1.8 is bringing similar fitting bonuses to equipment for logis.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9882
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:virgindestroyer7 wrote:
THIS.
My problem with adding extra equipment slots then removing low slots is that I'm ALWAYS sacrificing something on my suit.
I mean, if i have everything spec'd out IE shields, armor, eng, elec, fitting optimization, ETC ETC and i can't fit all proto equipment on my suit, I need that extra slot for a PG or CPU upgrade.
On top of this Amarr suits, which have slightly more fitting capabilities with reduced slots. I still have a hard time fitting what I need and can't sacrifice my only tanking slots on fitting modules. I often times have 50-80 CPU and 0 PG. There are a lot of issues with suits and fittings.
The Amarr logis have the same module slot counts in my plan as all other logis, 8 and prototype.
1.8 is bringing equipment fitting bonuses for all lofis.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9883
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Gotta disagree on you on this one Kagehoshi.
Stay away from my sidearm! If I want another suit with 2 equipment slots I'll use a scout.
Medium frames get no equipment bonuses (fitting OR efficacy). I would never use that suit.
Alright, I think I'll change the plan for the Amarr logi slot thing. Reduce module slot to 2 on standard, 5 on advanced, and 7 at proto, but give it a sidearm back.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9900
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gave Amarr logis back their sidearms in exchange for the current equipment numbers.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9900
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Posted - 2014.03.11 20:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Any more concerns?
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9919
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Posted - 2014.03.12 19:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
ShalaShasta 666 wrote:why give the standard caldari suit 3 equips and remove a low slot? how do you propose the pg or cpu handle that kind of equipment load? you would have to rebalance the cpu and pg. the advanced teir is already difficult with max pg and cpu skills to fit and the suit is already squishy ( for a logi) if you arent filling the lows with armour. the real balance problem for the assaults and logis is the fitting cost of basic armour plates, fix that then try to balance the suits.
There is no reason why the Caldari logi doesn't have a 3rd equipment slot at standard, its pretty crappy compared to the other underpowered standard suits.
Its Caldari, and Caldari are primarily shield tankers with many high lots and few low slots. There never really was a good reason for logis to have so many low slots compared to the assaults.
I'm not an expert on PG/CPU costs, but CCP can handle it. I state in the OP that "Obviously PG/CPU should be tweaked".
If the logis and assaults have the same amount of high and low slots, and assaults still have more base HP, then logis would never be able to stack more plates than assaults.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9919
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Posted - 2014.03.12 19:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Villanor Aquarius wrote:I am all for this. This really should have been the start.
My ideas had included nerfing light weapons/sidearms further and giving assault suits a built in light weapon damage.
A further 10% nerf to weapon damage and 2% bonus to assault suits light weapon damage and scout suits sidearm damage and an additional 2% on the commando bonus would further separate classes into their designed purposes.
Caldari 2% to hybrids (blasters and rails)
Gallente 2% to hybrids (blasters and rails)
Amarr 2% to lasers
Minmatar 2% to projectiles
These would be in addition to all the current bonuses.
In principle I agree with you, but there are problems with that bonuses should make assaults superior at handling light weapons.
1) the commandos are already getting these bonuses in 1.8 (though the Caldari one only has a bonus to only hybrid-railgun, and Gallente one only to hybrid-plasma/baster). If assaults had that, it would pretty much steal the commandos' thunder.
2) Assaults having 3 bonuses while everything only has 2 would be a problem.
CCP is indeed making an attempt to make assaults good light weapon handlers with bonuses also.
"Role Bonus: 5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of light/sidearm weapons
Caldari Assault: +5% to reload speed of hybrid railgun light/sidearm weapons per level. (lame)
Gallente Assault: 5% reduction to hybrid - blaster light/sidearm hip-fire dispersion and kick per level. (lame)
Minmatar Assault: +5% to projectile light/sidearm clip size per level. (great)
Amarr Assault: 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up per level. (great)"
Check out the new devblog if you haven't already.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9923
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Posted - 2014.03.12 22:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever.
I guess they now aren't as ******** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements.
For the most part basic suits have always been bonus-less copies of specialized suits. I don't like it, and I think its a problem for reasons I explained in the OP.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9927
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Posted - 2014.03.13 16:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Sole Fenychs wrote:According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever.
I guess they now aren't as ******** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements. For the most part basic suits have always been bonus-less copies of specialized suits. I don't like it, and I think its a problem for reasons I explained in the OP. Up until now they were more expensive. So no, they weren't exact copies.
They said nothing about lowering the prices. Saying they're copies or identical refers to the base stats and slots, not the price.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9928
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Posted - 2014.03.13 19:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:They said nothing about lowering the prices. Saying they're copies or identical refers to the base stats and slots, not the price. But the posted spreadsheets include prices. "Identical stats" in that context sounds like "The spreadsheet also applies to basic suits".
I really hope the prices are the same and that you are right, but I have serious doubts.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9944
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Posted - 2014.03.15 02:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Any more thoughts?
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9954
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Posted - 2014.03.15 12:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
/me adds more comment slots in the tread
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9964
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Posted - 2014.03.17 07:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Solution. Reverse advanced and proto logi layouts with their assault counter parts.
So all proto assaults have most slots and advanced assaults are either equal or better.
No reason for a logi to have more equipment slots and same slots as per your suggestion.
Sidearm doesn't make up for the improved fitting capabilities of a logi.
I'd rather gave an assault suit with no sidearm and the room to fit whatever I want. Which is what the logi does.
Logis don't just have the lack of sidearm, they also have less base HP, less speed, less stamina.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9971
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Posted - 2014.03.17 16:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to add that the standard scouts now have one more module slot and the same number of equipment slots as the standard Cal Logi (in addition to having a sidearm). The Amarr logi's layout is equal in slot count (and identical in slot layout to the Minmatar scout). I find that quite odd.
The numbers I suggest make the Amarr module slot counts the same as the other races instead of being less, and I proposed to make the Caldari logi start at 3 equipment slots instead of 2.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10011
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Posted - 2014.03.18 14:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Do it
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10013
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Posted - 2014.03.18 15:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:When you look at new Sentinel, Commando, and Scout stats the Amarr actually have equalized module slots compared to other races. Just some food for thought.
Your proposal of Amarr assault/logi going from 2/2 at standard to 2/4 at advanced seems odd. In my opinion you should never gain multiple module slots as you increase tier, let alone multiple slots in the same category (high, low).
Regarding the Caldari Logi, I actually suggest it loses the extra module to have equalized module slots and gains a sidearm instead of equipment. This is mainly because of the racial bonus. Similar to the Amarr who have a bonus to an equipment you simply lay down and forget about, what makes you not want to use a different logi after those equipment are layed down? In Amarr's case its the sidearm, so a sidearm for Caldari Logi would be better than a 4th equipment in my opinion.
Also it sounds like STD Amarr logi and STD Amarr medium are the same thing? 1 Light, 1 sidearm, 2 equipment?
Lastly just want to add emphasis on your proposal for MLT changes. CCP please do not forget that MLT suits exist! Help the NPE and give these better slot layouts. 2H 0L for Amarr medium MLT? Who thought that one up?
You knew I was updating the slot thing to be a less steep progression, I told you on Skype, you could have just waited  . Anyway the proposal is now that module slots increment by one per tier.
New proposal:
Assault & logi STD (high/low)
Am: 2/4
Ga: 2/4
Ca: 4/2 (+1 equipment for logi)
Min: 3/3
Assault & logi ADV
Am: 2/5
Ga: 3/4
Ca: 5/2
Min: 4/3
Assault & logi PRO
Am: 3/5
Ga: 3/5
Ca: 5/3 (+1 equipment for logi)
Min: 4/4
Basic medium MLT (high/low/equipment)
Am: 2/2/2
Ga: 1/3/2
Ca: 3/1/2
Min: 2/1/2
Basic medium STD
Am: 2/3/2
Ga: 2/3/2
Ca: 3/2/2
Min: 3/2/2
Basic medium ADV
Am: 2/4/2
Ga: 2/4/2
Ca: 4/2/2
Min: 3/3/2
Basic medium PRO
Am: 3/4/2
Ga: 2/5/2
Ca: 5/2/2
Min: 4/3/2
As for the sidearm proposal for the Caldari logi, I don't think its necessary.
A for Amarr logi vs basic medium at standard tier: the modules are different, and logi gets a bonus to equipment.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10013
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Posted - 2014.03.18 16:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:You knew I was updating the slot thing to be a less steep progression, I told you on Skype, you could have just waited . But no one at CCP reads our Skype discussions. Just want to make sure I say it publicly: Don't increase slot counts by more than one per tier!
But I was in the process of editing my post with the tier progression changes when you commented. Is typing on my phone now.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10125
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Posted - 2014.03.25 14:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Hawkings Greenback wrote:Sole Fenychs wrote:According to the new dev blog, basic suits are now identical to their iconic variant (Assault for medium, scout for light, sentinel for heavy), except for requiring less skills and having no bonuses whatsoever.
I guess they now aren't as ******** anymore. They are basically militia suits with skill requirements. The last sentence is quite true. The one thing for me is why would I want to use a basic suit with no bonus. Does anyone use them? I suppose CCP will have that data. If they are the step before proto why not give them watered down bonus from the proto suits they are meant to precede? Anyhow OP looks ok. CCP need to look at slot layout for medium frames, hopefully soon The easy and logical (yes, I know.. CCP) answer is to make them 1/2 the price of the assault suit instead of double. I would totally use an ADV medium frame that only cost 3000 ISK for things like AV that no suits have great bonuses for.
I definitely want basics to be cheaper than specializations, though I didn't cover it in this thread because this one is just about slots. I did cover it in the thread I linked in the OP though.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10168
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Posted - 2014.03.28 16:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Updated OP.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10183
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Posted - 2014.03.29 22:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:I'm sure someone has already pointed this out but, just to make it more clear, med basic and assault frames would need a buff to CPU/PG inorder to make this increased slot layout plan viable. Besides that I feel like it is a decent solution.
Yes, PG/CPU would need adjustments.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10183
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Posted - 2014.03.29 23:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:Personally, I think you're just looking for trouble when adding more modules to the assault/Basic class.
Well its what they did to scouts, and now they're usurping the role of the assault. My proposal doesn't increase the upper limit of the module slot count at proto (only by one for most assaults), so they won't be able to usurp the role of heavies any more than a logi at proto currently can. I don't think its too radical.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10187
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Posted - 2014.03.30 11:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
More input welcomed
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10204
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Posted - 2014.03.31 18:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ninjas also welcomed
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10214
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Posted - 2014.04.01 14:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Assaults need a bonus to reduced fitting cost of tanking mods as well.
Shield extender/recharger/regulator fitting cost reduction for minmatar and caldari.
Armor plate/repper fitting cost reduction for amarr and gallente.
I rather not go overboard.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10317
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Posted - 2014.04.06 09:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
More feedback welcomed
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10324
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Not even comments about why it would be horrible?
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10347
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Posted - 2014.04.08 06:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Any suggestions or issues?
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10349
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Posted - 2014.04.08 19:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:You do know the Devs are going to update all the medium suits, at some future point in time, right? I haven't skilled back into medium frame suits because they have not announced what the changes are. They got the basic racial changes finished and pushed the mediums out with the rest. Your basic ideas are well thought out, except for shorting the Minmatar Logi, and it will be interesting to compare the Devs plan with your proposal. Of course we can't, theirs is super secret. 
I know they're going to update them, but I don't know exactly how. They could somehow make things worse, so I think having my feedback out there is important so I don't feel like I did nothing to try to steer them in the right direction if their solutions aren't ideal.
As for the Minmatar logi, it has the same number of module slots as all the other logis, I don't see how I am shorting it. Care to explain? Your feedback is welcomed.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10350
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Posted - 2014.04.08 20:09:00 -
[34] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:Scouts have "2" equipment slots. I think the Logi class should receive 1 extra equipment slot as compensation.
We are the class that specializes in equipment, no? This would make us really stand out.
In my plan all logis would start at 3 equipment slots, and have 4 at prototype; all except for the Amarr one since it doesn't lose a sidearm like the others.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10392
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Posted - 2014.04.09 00:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I know they're going to update them, but I don't know exactly how. They could somehow make things worse, so I think having my feedback out there is important so I don't feel like I did nothing to try to steer them in the right direction if their solutions aren't ideal.
As for the Minmatar logi, it has the same number of module slots as all the other logis, I don't see how I am shorting it. Care to explain? Your feedback is welcomed. I really wish that you were joking about them making it worse, but with their track record I wouldn't bet on anything else. Oh well, I will keep my SP for the heavy and medium until they announce release the changes for both suits. The Minmatar Logi always had an advantage for two things that I cared about. First was my lamented hacking bonus and that it had an extra equip slot one level earlier than the other logistic suits. Their STD had 3 equip, etc. but stopping 4/4/4 at PRO. Although 4/5/4 would be sweet I seriously doubt if I could fill the sucker up. Of course, I might be out of step as I have quit looking at them, knowing they are going to change so there is no need to get exited only to get Nerf Hammered after I spent the SP. Here is hoping your cooler thinking will show the Devs that yanking the tiller back and forth is not the best way to cross the river.
I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what you mean, but I will do my best to reply.
The Minmatar logi has a built-in 20% faster hacking bonus in 1.8, pretty close to the 25% hacking bonus. That should be some consolation. Source.
The Minmatar logi currently has the same number of equipment per tier as the Gallente one: 3 at standard, 3 at advanced, 4 at prototype, the Minmatar logi was never special in this aspect since the Gallente logi also has this equipment progression.
The equipment slots will stay the same for the Minmatar logi in my plan, the only difference is that the Caldari logi will also join the 3 STD/ 3 ADV/ 4 PRO equipment club at the cost of losing a module slot at proto (it will have 8 total module slots like the Minmatar logi, instead of 9). The Minmatar logi won't have any net disadvantages over the other logis; same module slot counts, still keeps the 3 STD/ 3 ADV/ 4 PRO equipment progression, and the Caldari logi is only allowed to match the equipment slot progression at the cost of its 9th equipment slot. The Minmatar logi would still have more equipment slots than the Amarr one at standard and proto.
I'm not sure what you mean by the 4/5/4 thing, I didn't suggest this. In my proposal I kept the current 4/4/4 plan for the Minmatar logi at proto (8 module slots total). In my plan all assaults and logis will have 6 module slots at standard, 7 at advanced, and 8 at prototype like logis generally have now (though the Amarr one has too little at proto, and the Caldari has too much at proto). The difference between the 2 specializations would be that:
Assaults would have a sidearm higher HP ceiling because of the higher base HP
The logis have 3/3/4 equipment slots (the exception being the Amarr logi as a tradeoff for the sidearm).
The result would be that assaults won't be comparatively UP at proto against logis, and both assaults and logis are improved significantly at lower tiers.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10393
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Posted - 2014.04.10 02:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:I agree that the non-specialized suits are not in a good place and I think it has to do with how suit bonuses are applied. There is no bonus on a non-specialized suit and I think there should be. I made this progression picture to show how I feel the suits should be tiered and the names reflect how the suit is bonused. The bonus should be defined by the suit and applied with the level of the skill needed to use the suit. Lets just use the medium frames because this is what this thread is about.Standard Entrencher - One defensive bonus applied per level of assault. Assault - One offensive bonus applied per level of assault. Field Medic - One logi bonus applied per level of logi. Advanced Weapons Specialist - Two bonuses per level of assault, one for weapon DPS and the other for racial defensive tank. Close Support - Two bonuses per level of assault and both would be for the racial defensive tank. Engineer - Two bonuses per level of logi, one for the equipment used by the race and the other for a racial defensive tank. Prototype Anti-Vehicle - Three bonuses, one static racial and two per level bonuses geared toward anti-vehicle. The static would be racial defensive tank, one per level to DPS and one per level to racial tank. Alpha Strike - Three bonuses, one static racial and two per level bonuses geared toward DPS. The static would be a racial DPS, one per level would be to range and one to DPS Ranged support-Three bonuses, one static racial and two per level bonuses geared toward range. The static would be a range bonus, one per level would be to speed and one per level to DPS. Medical Support - One static and two to per level bonuses geared towards providing team HP support. The static would be an equipment bonus, one per level of equipment effectiveness and one per level to racial defensive tank. Logistical Support - One static and two per level bonuses geared towards providing team logistical support. The static would be to racial defensive tank, one per level to racial equipment effectiveness and one to racial equipment fitting. Anti-Vehicle - Three bonuses, one static racial and two per level bonuses geared toward anti-vehicle. The static would be to racial DPS, one per level would be to AV effectiveness and one per level would be geared towards racial DPS. I understand that not all of these suits would fit into the racial lore of each race, that is something for CCP to figure out and I don't know what bonus should be applied to what area. These suits would also have different slot layouts from one another and between the tiers. Each suit slot layout would compliment the bonuses the suit has. The lower tier suits may have more slots but they would have fewer bonuses that improved the modules equipped and weapons used. As the merc moved up through the tiers the suits would lose slots here and there but the loss of a slot would be made up by the bonus received by the suit. The idea would be to make the suit better by having more bonuses that buff the modules used better as the merc levels the skills up. Stats would also change, no suit would have the same HP, speed, regen, CPU/PG resources and this would make each suit unique and give all suits a role to play. The way suits are now upper tier suits are just the same thing with more resources and it doesn't make any sense to use a lower tier suit because they are clearly inferior to the upper tiers. In the progression I propose the suits are better as you move up through the tier but they are clearly different and do not just have more slots. In fact the upper tier will have less because they are specialized and highly bonused instead of generic and lightly bonused. This just my Idea but it think it would encourage the use of lower tier suits more often because the higher tiers would be expensive and highly specialized and not do as well in every situation as a lower tier suit would.
I like the general idea, you may want to go support Zeylon Rho's idea.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10409
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Posted - 2014.04.10 21:38:00 -
[37] - Quote
More thoughts welcomed
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10415
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Posted - 2014.04.11 23:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
137H4RGIC wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Any objections? Then you can out tank and out strafe heavies making them I've again on the bottom of the food chain. Assaults ate dinner with their hp right now. But they need a bonus to their suit that fits their role. What you're suggesting is that assaults be the end all to scouts, the speed demons of the game. So you want to maintain your mobility, but increase your tank. No good. Leaves heavies obsolete. You would balance this by increasing the base hp of the heavy to be on par with the update. And then scouts are useless for their frailty. Assaults aren't meant to be slayers as I understand it. You use assaults for suppressive fire so sounds can go in abd flank, and give the heavies time to push up the front line. You hold up or flank so our logis won't get chewed up by flanking fire. This isn't Call of Dust, Future Warfare. This is dust. Your role is not to flank or go in to an enemy infested building. Yours is to establish a beach head abd keep them from leaving. This is assault. You're more mobile than a heavy abd have more zeroing damage potential than scouts. Scouts are working as intended: hit and run. Pick you off one by one.
Wow
Ok, you realize I'm not asking for a base HP raise right? just slots, that means I'll have to deal with the penalties of those modules I use. Example, if I use the slots to put more armor plates and gain more HP, I will still be effected by the armor plate speed penalty. So how is that asking for both HP and speed if HP from plates comes at a tradeoff with speed?
As for your fears about assaults becoming the new heavies. In my plan assaults would only gain ONE more module slot at prototype, meaning they won't be that much stronger than they currently are in prototype. One more slot is certainly not enough to gain 1,500+ HP like sentinels can, and that's not even accounting for the damage resistances from the sentinel bonus.
I don't know where you're getting your info from, but the assaults are meant to be the general frontline combat soldier of Dust; so yes, they are supposed to be slayers. Source.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10416
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Posted - 2014.04.12 04:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
137H4RGIC wrote:In eve an assault class is a Jack off all trades and a master of none. That's what makes the assault suit so great is its ability to adapt with its weapon selection and equipment slot.
Scouts have the same selection of weapons, and 2 equipment slots while assaults only have one. So your point about assault's versatility from weapons and equipment is null, scouts have the clear advantage there.
The slots scouts have allow them to get medium frame level HP while being faster, stealthier, better at scanning. HP-wise, the gap between the light and medium families have become too close, too much in the benefit of scouts. Earlier you mentioned "Scouts are working as intended: hit and run. Pick you off one by one", what you failed to acknowledge is that they do far more than that now, they're now superior assaults as frontline combat suits because of the combination of slots for tanking HP and their E-war and speed. I can fit my skinweave militia Gallente light frame to have over 600 HP, and you think that's working as intended? That militia light fit has more HP than my standard Amarr assault.
Why would anyone use an assault? the minor weapon bonuses are nothing compared the advantges of a scout.
If you really think one more module slot at proto will make an assault's HP on par with the heavies, you are seriously underestimating how much HP a sentinel can tank. Logis already have 8 or mode module slots at proto with only a tiny difference in base HP, yet they're not comparatively OP against scouts and sentinels; your fear is unfounded.
Also a frontline combat suit is by necessity a slayer, that is what you do in the frontlines; you advance, slay, and keep pushing forward.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10419
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Posted - 2014.04.12 05:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:KAGEHOSHI wrote: The assaults are meant to be the general frontline combat soldier of Dust; so yes, they are supposed to be slayers. Source. Agreed, but at the same time they make the un-bonused medium frame pointless. If there needs to be slots added to suits it should be to the frames with no role specific bonus. The suits don't seem to have a purpose and with a little extra SP they are pretty much invalidated by specialized suits. I think that specialized suits should lose a slot and the then give that slot to the medium frames that don't have a bonus. That would give them more versatility and more appeal to players. Specialized suits should be better at the role they are specializing in and not just better in every way. Give the non specialized suits the extra resources so they can appeal to people who don't want to spend or have the SP to spend in a role specific suit, I think that the role specific suits should stay the way they are and the un-bonused should get the extra resources because what is the point of the suit if an assault is clearly better in every way? If CCP ever gets smart and puts the bonuses on the suit per level then yes they need to be looked at but as it is now the medium frames need to get the love and that would allow them to be good but generic instead of totally inferior to a specialized with the exact same resources but with a few bonuses. Basic M-1, Assault M-1 and the Logi M-1 are exactly the same in every way except that they last two have bonuses and cost an extra 374k SP to get into. Barring the the merc not having the extra SP there is absolutely no reason to use the basic suit, all the stats are the same and they even cost the same. Make the basic suit have a resource advantage so that they are useful and keep the specialized as they are. I am not saying they don't need to be looked at but something needs to be done to make the basic suits better and more appealing. SP shouldn't be the only reason a merc uses the basic suit. Again, what is the point of the basic if the assault is the jack of all trades and the the logi is the master of being a medic? Give the basic an extra slot or two and tweak the stats to make the better at general purpose use. Here is a quick example of what I mean. Give the basic M-1 a speed boost and an extra equipment slot that makes it better at doing everything but not superior or inferior to the assault M-1 or logi M-1. The Caldari would gain an extra high slot and a shield regen buff, the Amarr would get an extra low and an extra high and the Gallante would get an extra low and scan buff. These are just examples but you should get my point and of course the buff should reflect the race's technology or scheme.
I am aware of the issues with basic frames being identical to one of their specializations with the exception of the bonus, I covered it in the OP (specifically for basic mediums), and I linked a more in-depth thread specifically about fixing all basic frames at the end of the OP. Basically I want basic frames to be not only cheaper, bu also a middle-ground between specializations. For example, I would like basic mediums to have 5 module slots standard, 6 advanced, and 7 at prototype (1 less than my proposed assaults and logis), but in exchange they should have a second equipment slot, and a lesser price. This would allow players to use basic mediums as a sort of generalist hybrid between assault and logi, allows players get a feel for which role they like better before specializing (since you can essentially lightly test-drive both the assault and logi roles), and also be a cheap alternative to specialized suits.
While we have different approaches to deal with the basic frames, I think they accomplish the same goal of giving them a purpose.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10419
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Posted - 2014.04.12 06:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Yes, I know you covered it and I think I was just crying more than anything. I would love to see the prices dropped and the stats tweak just to give us more choices but when it gets boiled down to the real problem it is how the bonuses are applied to specialized and the lack of bonuses on basic. Giving every suit - including basics - a per level bonus on the suit would fix many of the problems we have with these suits.
I am also just trying to keep this topic at the top. CCP notices threads with good discussions that have many pages and I want them to notice this thread and think about what they are doing with the bonuses. DUST514 has two major problems that is holding it back in my opinion and it is the suit bonus system and no market. I think the market is close but we need to stay vigilant about theses bonuses.
Thanks, I really appreciate that  .
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10426
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Posted - 2014.04.13 18:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Anyone else have input for me to address?
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10441
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:40:00 -
[43] - Quote
Prime example of one of the reasons why this change is needed (source)
Jack McReady wrote:my to go assault before 1.8 was minmatar because I like its speed but I converted to my new toy, the gallente scout. I just got it to lvl 5 and this suit is facking amazing. here is my gk.0 fit:
Hi & Low Slots:
2 Complex Shield Extender
4 Basic Armor Plates
Weapons:
Six Kin Assault Combat Rifle
Six Kin Sub Machine Gun
Core Locus Grenade
Equipment:
Ishukone Cloak Field
Wyirkomi Nanite Injector or Ishukone Nanohive
yes, I can fit a 770 HP tank, proto cloak, proto weapons plus another proto equipment piece on that thing and the gist is I am about as fast as I am with the minmatar assault with around the same total hp. I just traded that weaksauce clipsize bonus for an awesome cloak, a second piece of equipment, lower hitbox, lower scanprofile & higher scan precision plus the ability to evade alot of scanners. I can now cross the battlefield faster with my cloak without being caught because I do not have to waste my time trying to abuse terrain.
RIP minmatar assault
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10445
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Posted - 2014.04.18 08:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
Do these things!
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10460
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Posted - 2014.04.20 03:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
More input welcome
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10463
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Posted - 2014.04.20 17:51:00 -
[46] - Quote
Denn Maell wrote:One of the things that really shocked me when I realized it was the price difference for frames/their role-specialized counterparts. If the frames received no skills, no really defining features whatsoever why have they always cost more?
The previous Amarr Heavy frame (prior to 1.8) was the only exception I could find to justify a price difference as it possessed additional high slots making it an attractive fit for a forge gunner to stack damage mods or shield extenders.
If Frames are to be more customizable bonus less suits, wouldn't they need a price reduction to make them more attractive than their brethren (who also have skill-bonuses)?
Thankfully now, basic frames aren't more expensive anymore. I think they're the same price as specialized ones now.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10584
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Posted - 2014.04.23 18:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:I am almost full time logi and I already point this out in the closed beta but no one bothered because logis werent that popular.
imho logis should have low amounts of slots but hight base HP similar to commandos. basically a specialized suit with not much flexibility (less HP than commandos obviously). point is, they get equipment flexibility, no reason to give them more slot flexibility from hi and low slots. they only need HP to support at the front under fire and equipment slots, nothing else.
assault should have high amounts of hi and low slots giving them flexibility (aka jack of all trades) in fittings but no flexibility in equipment, contrary to the logis.
this would fix all issues imho. if you want high amounts of HP as assault you can tank them out to the max, if you want a profile damped shield tanked suit nothing will stop you. you will always be better with the specific fit than a logi due to the amounts of slots.
and for logis, will still be tough and you get some utility low and hi slow to improve one or two aspects marginally but you wont be able to overshadow a specialized assault fit.
I don't think logis should be less flexible, just the HP ceiling thing is a problem.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10634
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Posted - 2014.04.25 21:28:00 -
[48] - Quote
More thoughts welcomed
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10638
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Posted - 2014.04.26 17:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dunce Masterson wrote:+1
Well done! I agree with every you have written on this post.
I would like to see the bonuses moved to the suits like the bonuses are on the ships in EVE online and have a 3rd bonus added for example:
Basic suit bonus: X% per level
Assault suit bonus:Y% per level
Assault suit bonus:Z% per level
This would also make it easier to define the roles of drop suits, the basic suit bonus could be a small bonus to something beneficial to the suit like reload speed of heavy weapons on the heavies and a smaller cross bonus between assault and commando suits like a 5% damage bonus to racial weapons for the assault suits and 1% less weapon buff to the use of racial weapons the Amarr commando would get a 4% reduction to leaser weapon heat build up per level.
You may very much like Zeylon Rho's idea
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10656
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:
That guys post makes no sense.
Current system:
Skill: Amarr Assault - unlocks suit, 5% reduction to laser heat build-up, and 5% bonus to shield recharge rate per level of skill.
Suit: Amarr Assault - .... you get the above skill bonus if and only if you are wearing this suit (STD, ADV, PRO).
Suggested Change:
Skill: Amarr Assault - unlocks suits.
Suit: Amarr Assault - (STD, ADV, or PRO) - Grants 5% reduction to laser heat build-up, and 5% bonus to shield recharge rate per rank of Amarr Assault skill.
Was current system introduced in 1.8? It's never been this before and I've never heard of this before lol. He's insane.
It's always been the second.
Not to mention they're the exact same thing.
There's only one assault suit. Lol
What he's saying that at present, if you have Amarr assault skilled up to level 5, that equates to a 25% heat reduction bonus. On ANY Amarr assault. So, if you use: A-1: 25% A/1: 25% ak.0: 25% What he is proposing is that instead, the bonus is locked to the SUIT, not the skill. So, if you use: A-1: 5% A/1: 15% ak.0: 25% I don't support this idea for 3 reasons. One, it only encourages protostomping and makes the disparity between rich and poor corps even bigger. Two, it brings back useless skills, namely level 2 and 4, which would give you nothing in return. Three, this isn't EvE and people need to get over that. FPS's are different animals.
NO NO NO
I misunderstood the idea at first also. it is functionally the same as how bonuses and skill levels work. I will provide examples of how Zeylon's idea works.
Example:
Amarr assault skill: level 5
Amarr assault dropsuit bonus: 5% reduction of laser weaponry heat buildup.
result: 25% (5% x lv 5) reduction of laser weapon heat buildup reduction per level.
It is the same as the status quo in this regard, but the advantage the idea is that you can have new special dropsuits of the same specialization (assault, logi, sentinel, commando, etc) but have different bonuses. Those different bonuses would be leveled up by the same skill as the normal dropsuits.
Example:
Amarr assault skill: level 3
"Guardian" Amarr assault (new special dropsuit) dropsuit bonus: 2% damage increase against Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits.
Result: 6% (2% x lv 3) increase to Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits.
Amarr scout skill: level 4
"Blood Raider" Amarr scout (new special dropsuit) dropsuit bonus: 2% weapon damage increase when hitting enemies from the back.
Result: 8% (2% x lv 4) weapon damage increase to enemies hit from the back.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10656
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:
That guys post makes no sense.
Current system:
Skill: Amarr Assault - unlocks suit, 5% reduction to laser heat build-up, and 5% bonus to shield recharge rate per level of skill.
Suit: Amarr Assault - .... you get the above skill bonus if and only if you are wearing this suit (STD, ADV, PRO).
Suggested Change:
Skill: Amarr Assault - unlocks suits.
Suit: Amarr Assault - (STD, ADV, or PRO) - Grants 5% reduction to laser heat build-up, and 5% bonus to shield recharge rate per rank of Amarr Assault skill.
Was current system introduced in 1.8? It's never been this before and I've never heard of this before lol. He's insane.
It's always been the second.
Not to mention they're the exact same thing.
There's only one assault suit. Lol
What he's saying that at present, if you have Amarr assault skilled up to level 5, that equates to a 25% heat reduction bonus. On ANY Amarr assault. So, if you use: A-1: 25% A/1: 25% ak.0: 25% What he is proposing is that instead, the bonus is locked to the SUIT, not the skill. So, if you use: A-1: 5% A/1: 15% ak.0: 25% I don't support this idea for 3 reasons. One, it only encourages protostomping and makes the disparity between rich and poor corps even bigger. Two, it brings back useless skills, namely level 2 and 4, which would give you nothing in return. Three, this isn't EvE and people need to get over that. FPS's are different animals. NO NO NO I misunderstood the idea at first also. it is functionally the same as how bonuses and skill levels work. I will provide examples of how Zeylon's idea works. Example: Amarr assault skill: level 5 Amarr assault dropsuit bonus: 5% reduction of laser weaponry heat buildup. result: 25% (5% x lv 5) reduction of laser weapon heat buildup reduction per level. It is the same as the status quo in this regard, but the advantage the idea is that you can have new special dropsuits of the same specialization (assault, logi, sentinel, commando, etc) but have different bonuses. Those different bonuses would be leveled up by the same skill as the normal dropsuits. Example: Amarr assault skill: level 3 "Guardian" Amarr assault (new special dropsuit) dropsuit bonus: 2% damage increase against Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits. Result: 6% (2% x lv 3) increase to Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits. Amarr scout skill: level 4 "Blood Raider" Amarr scout (new special dropsuit) dropsuit bonus: 2% weapon damage increase when hitting enemies from the back. Result: 8% (2% x lv 4) weapon damage increase to enemies hit from the back. I edited my post, but I still don't get it. Without tiericide what is the change? Even with it, would you not just introduce another branch off the Amarr assault tree and the bonuses apply "downstream"? What does he mean by tying it to the suit if not that the suit itself determines the bonus?
If your Amarr assault skill is level 5, you will get the maximum bonus, even if wearing only standard. The bonus will be different however depending on what variant of the Amarr assault you're wearing.
The suit decides the bonus, but the level of the skill acts as a multiplier.
Example:
Current Amarr assault skill level: 5 (multiply 5 times whatever the bonus attached to the suit is)
Bonus attached to Amarr assault bonus: -5% laser weapon heat buildup per level.
Bonus attached to Khanid Amarr assault bonus (new special variant, not a new tier): +5% laser weapon headshot damage per level.
Regular Amarr assault result: (level 5 x -5%) = -25% laser weapon heat buildup. NO MATTER WHAT TIER YOU ARE WEARING.
Khanid Amarr assault result: (level 5 x -5%) = +25% laser weapon headshot damage. NO MATTER WHAT TIER YOU ARE WEARING.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10656
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:35:00 -
[52] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:
That guys post makes no sense.
Current system:
Skill: Amarr Assault - unlocks suit, 5% reduction to laser heat build-up, and 5% bonus to shield recharge rate per level of skill.
Suit: Amarr Assault - .... you get the above skill bonus if and only if you are wearing this suit (STD, ADV, PRO).
Suggested Change:
Skill: Amarr Assault - unlocks suits.
Suit: Amarr Assault - (STD, ADV, or PRO) - Grants 5% reduction to laser heat build-up, and 5% bonus to shield recharge rate per rank of Amarr Assault skill.
Was current system introduced in 1.8? It's never been this before and I've never heard of this before lol. He's insane.
It's always been the second.
Not to mention they're the exact same thing.
There's only one assault suit. Lol
What he's saying that at present, if you have Amarr assault skilled up to level 5, that equates to a 25% heat reduction bonus. On ANY Amarr assault. So, if you use: A-1: 25% A/1: 25% ak.0: 25% What he is proposing is that instead, the bonus is locked to the SUIT, not the skill. So, if you use: A-1: 5% A/1: 15% ak.0: 25% I don't support this idea for 3 reasons. One, it only encourages protostomping and makes the disparity between rich and poor corps even bigger. Two, it brings back useless skills, namely level 2 and 4, which would give you nothing in return. Three, this isn't EvE and people need to get over that. FPS's are different animals. NO NO NO I misunderstood the idea at first also. it is functionally the same as how bonuses and skill levels work. I will provide examples of how Zeylon's idea works. Example: Amarr assault skill: level 5 Amarr assault dropsuit bonus: 5% reduction of laser weaponry heat buildup. result: 25% (5% x lv 5) reduction of laser weapon heat buildup reduction per level. It is the same as the status quo in this regard, but the advantage the idea is that you can have new special dropsuits of the same specialization (assault, logi, sentinel, commando, etc) but have different bonuses. Those different bonuses would be leveled up by the same skill as the normal dropsuits. Example: Amarr assault skill: level 3 "Guardian" Amarr assault (new special dropsuit) dropsuit bonus: 2% damage increase against Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits. Result: 6% (2% x lv 3) increase to Gallente and Minmatar dropsuits. Amarr scout skill: level 4 "Blood Raider" Amarr scout (new special dropsuit) dropsuit bonus: 2% weapon damage increase when hitting enemies from the back. Result: 8% (2% x lv 4) weapon damage increase to enemies hit from the back. If your Amarr assault skill is level 5, you will get the maximum bonus, even if wearing only standard. The bonus will be different however depending on what variant of the Amarr assault you're wearing. But that's how it already works. At least pre 1.8 I haven't played 1.8 but this is completely new to me. This is already like this because assault suits are supposed to have 2 bonuses for the medium skill and 2 bonuses for assault. did they move it to skills in 1.I because if they didn't his system is flat out wrong.
Functionally that is how things already works, but there is a fundamental difference; you cannot add new suits that use the same skills but with different bonuses. That is because the skill determines the bonus, to to add a new suit with a different bonus it would require a new skill.
The difference in what Zeylon suggests is simply that you would be able to have a bunch of variant (much like weapons have variants, like "tactical", "breach", "assault") that use the same skill. So you could have more options within your suit type without having to skill into completely new suits. The same skill can unlock and benefit more suits.
Functionally the same, but more room for variety.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10656
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
I gave both of you a like to notify you both that I (separately) replied to bot of your recent comments.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10656
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:07:00 -
[54] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:
That's why I'm asking if this changed in 1.8
Because that's already how it worked in 1.7
and this would only apply to mediums. There's only one assault cruiser per race in eve.
We don't need assault suit variants.
If it was correct like eve I get two bonuses from the medium skill as an assault.
And as a logi I get two bonuses from the medium skill.
Then two bonuses for assault skill to the assault and two bonuses to the logi through the logi skill.
All the bonuses are tied to the suits an just vary in effectiveness based on the skills level. Dust is not here yet but this system foundation was already in place in 1.7
Our bonuses are already suit tied so as I said his post makes no sense unless his "current system" was introduced in 1.8 and it's completely new because this has never been the system before 1.8.
Skills in Dust work the same way as they did in 1.7; if you maxed out the skill, you will get the full bonus even if you're wearing standard tier. Zeylon's idea would work that way as well, but gives room for more variety. BONUSES ARE NOT SUIT-TIED in Dust currently (nor have they ever been), they are SKILL-TIED only. It is the Amarr assault skill is what that gives the Amarr assault dropsuit the heat buildup reduction, its not the suit itself; that means if you add a new Amarr assault variant unlocked by the same Amarr asault skill, you CANNOT have a different bonus.
This would NOT only benefit medium suits. You could add variants for EVERY kind of dropsuit. Scout variants with different bonuses, sentinel variants with bonuses to heavy weapons for example instead of to resistance (sentinels have bonuses to damage resistance currently)
Auris Lionesse wrote:Edit oops I meant medium suit skill not "mediums"
I'm typing from a phone sorry.
There is an edit button that allows you to do alterations to your posts.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10784
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Posted - 2014.05.12 00:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
I feel like it might be a waste of time to bump any of my threads without first seeing evidence that CCP will continue improving Dust in a substantive way, but won't hurt to bump this.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10864
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Posted - 2014.05.22 01:58:00 -
[56] - Quote
Medium frames shall rise again!... maybe in Legion.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10937
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Posted - 2014.05.25 00:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
/me adds Rattati bait
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10963
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Posted - 2014.05.29 07:57:00 -
[58] - Quote
/me adds more bait
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10993
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Posted - 2014.06.05 09:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
/me sighs, and tries to figure out how to spreadsheet
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10993
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Posted - 2014.06.05 11:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Spreadsheet here
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11000
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Posted - 2014.06.06 00:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
lots of detailed work
I haven't given this a deep read through yet only a first pass so please forgive me if this has been addressed and I've missed it. Here are my questions, does this proposal address
- The role distortion between racial logi caused by the combined effect of equipment fittings reduction and equipment slot number disparity at pro level?
- Are the slot alterations made with consideration for the baseline stat disparities between logi and assault frames?
- How does the proposal maintain/improve the equilibrium of the risk vs reward baseline (i.e. tactical value and potential earnings being normalized between roles at X SP/ISK investment)
- What steps does the proposal take to improve/protect the viability of support play, especially at higher levels such as PC?
- What is the method used to assess equipment slot value in light of the recent equipment nerfs and racial buff narrowing on logistics suits?
- What, if any, are the specific changes made to reduce the presence of "killer bees" at pro levels rather than apply a generalized frame wide nerf, which will inevitably effect support play as well?
Based on my initial read the above questions have not been thoroughly accounted for. However I reiterate that I may have missed something, especially in light of the ongoing nature of this thread. If I have missed answers to these questions, or there are answers available now, please do direct me too them. Cheers, Cross
Not sure what you mean by the role distortion caused by equipment fitting bonus, and equipment slot disparity, but in my plan the Caldari logi will have 4 equipment slots at prototype just like the Gallente and Minmatar in exchange for having 8 modules instead of 9. The Amarr logi still will only have 3 at proto, but only because it gains a sidearm, though alternatively I suppose the Amarr logi could have 1 less module than other logis in exchange for having its equipment increased to match other racial logis; either way, equipment slots or module slots (but not both as it is now) should be a tradeoff for the sidearm.
Regarding your concerns about improving/protecting support play, in my plan lower tier logis should be more durable which will allow them to do their jobs better without dying, and the Caldari logi gets an equipment slot at both standard and prototype tiers meaning they have more tools for which to support.
Slot alterations are indeed proposed with base stats in mind, I do no want logis to have less module slots than their assault counterparts, I want them to have the same amount of module slots so the assault's base HP can really make a difference.
As for killer-bees, for the most parts I don't want to nerf logis, I want to buff assaults to have module slot counts that match logis at prototype. The assault's higher base HP + equal module slots = assaults can tank slightly more HP than logis, meaning logis will not be the best offensive medium frame. I think that solves the slayer logi issue.
The plan is basically this:
Make assaults and logis have the same racially consistent module slot layouts, this will make the assault's higher base HP truly matter, and not lead to slayer logis. The slayer logi issue existed because at prototype, all logis have more modules and can thus tank more HP than their assault counterpart; my plan fixes this. All assaults and logis start with 6 modules standard, 7 modules advanced, and 8 modules prototype (most logis have 8 or less right now anyway).
+1 module slot per tier smooth progression to close the unnecessarily large gap between tiers. The huge gap between medium frame tiers is only present with medium frames; lights and heavies have a sensible +1 module per tier progression. Fixing this would especially benefit lower tier logis which are generally just awful.
The only place this requires extra changes is with the Cal logi: there is no reason for it to start with only 2 equipment at standard, the Amarr one starts with 2 equipment as well but only because it gains a sidearm, so the Cal logi needs a 3rd equipment at standard. Logis generally have 1 more module slot at prototype than their assault counterparts, but the Cal logi gets +2 module slots (9 modules total) at prototype, but does not gain a 4th equipment slot; while this tradeoff is arguably fair, it allows a Caldari logi to tank more HP than a Cal assault, even with my plan to buff assault module slots to 8, and the slayer logi issue would continue. In light of this, I propose reducing prototype Cal logi modules from 9 to 8, and in exchange giving them a 4th equipment.
Make basic medium frames have the same module slot and layout as the proposed assaults and logis, but -1; in exchange, basic mediums should get a 2nd equipment slot. This makes the basic medium have a purpose beyond a crappier assault that quickly becomes obsolete once you unlock a real assault. This also makes the basic mediums a flexible generalist role between assaults and logis; lets you try out both the assault slayer role, and the logi support roles before specializing. Currently you can test out the role of an assault with a basic medium, but there is no way to really test drive the role of a logi, and that's unfair considering the basic medium is the parent frame of both.
Hopefully that should answer some of your concerns.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11000
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Posted - 2014.06.06 00:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I'm replying to the proposed Logi tiers. Fantastic work on putting this spreadsheet together! I like the idea of tiered progression.
My question is, why add 2 or more slots at the basic level given the current CPU / PG of the basic tier? I guess I don't see how giving them more slots makes the lower tiered suits any more viable than the current suits. Why have the extra slots if you don't have the CPU and PG to fit them?
My M-1 Logi suit is already topped out using a combination of basic and advanced gear. I'm not going to nerf my fit just to try and fill all available slots. I absolutely LOVE having fits that take up every single CPU and PG cycle.
EDIT: The issue that always comes up is the amount of CPU / PG. That is the sole reason the slayer logi was, and to a lesser extent still is a thing. Now that Scouts have crazy CPU / PG, more equipment, and can be invisible, they are the new slayers. If we want assaults to be the best slayers, they need the most CPU and PG.
I do state in both the original post, and in the spreadsheet that PG/CPU would have to be changed as well to accommodate slot additions.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11001
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Posted - 2014.06.06 01:37:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
Not sure what you mean by the role distortion caused by equipment fitting bonus, and equipment slot disparity, but in my plan the Caldari logi will have 4 equipment slots at prototype just like the Gallente and Minmatar in exchange for having 8 modules instead of 9. The Amarr logi still will only have 3 at proto, but only because it gains a sidearm, though alternatively I suppose the Amarr logi could have 1 less module than other logis in exchange for having its equipment increased to match other racial logis; either way, equipment slots or module slots (but not both as it is now) should be a tradeoff for the sidearm.
Regarding your concerns about improving/protecting support play, in my plan lower tier logis should be more durable which will allow them to do their jobs better without dying, and the Caldari logi gets an equipment slot at both standard and prototype tiers meaning they have more tools for which to support.
Slot alterations are indeed proposed with base stats in mind, I do no want logis to have less module slots than their assault counterparts, I want them to have the same amount of module slots so the assault's base HP can really make a difference.
As for killer-bees, for the most parts I don't want to nerf logis, I want to buff assaults to have module slot counts that match logis at prototype. The assault's higher base HP + equal module slots = assaults can tank slightly more HP than logis, meaning logis will not be the best offensive medium frame. I think that solves the slayer logi issue.
The plan is basically this:
Make assaults and logis have the same racially consistent module slot layouts, this will make the assault's higher base HP truly matter, and not lead to slayer logis. The slayer logi issue existed because at prototype, all logis have more modules and can thus tank more HP than their assault counterpart; my plan fixes this. All assaults and logis start with 6 modules standard, 7 modules advanced, and 8 modules prototype (most logis have 8 or less right now anyway).
+1 module slot per tier smooth progression to close the unnecessarily large gap between tiers. The huge gap between medium frame tiers is only present with medium frames; lights and heavies have a sensible +1 module per tier progression. Fixing this would especially benefit lower tier logis which are generally just awful.
The only place this requires extra changes is with the Cal logi: there is no reason for it to start with only 2 equipment at standard, the Amarr one starts with 2 equipment as well but only because it gains a sidearm, so the Cal logi needs a 3rd equipment at standard. Logis generally have 1 more module slot at prototype than their assault counterparts, but the Cal logi gets +2 module slots (9 modules total) at prototype, but does not gain a 4th equipment slot; while this tradeoff is arguably fair, it allows a Caldari logi to tank more HP than a Cal assault, even with my plan to buff assault module slots to 8, and the slayer logi issue would continue. In light of this, I propose reducing prototype Cal logi modules from 9 to 8, and in exchange giving them a 4th equipment.
Make basic medium frames have the same module slot and layout as the proposed assaults and logis, but -1; in exchange, basic mediums should get a 2nd equipment slot. This makes the basic medium have a purpose beyond a crappier assault that quickly becomes obsolete once you unlock a real assault. This also makes the basic mediums a flexible generalist role between assaults and logis; lets you try out both the assault slayer role, and the logi support roles before specializing. Currently you can test out the role of an assault with a basic medium, but there is no way to really test drive the role of a logi, and that's unfair considering the basic medium is the parent frame of both.
Hopefully that should answer some of your concerns. That does indeed address most of my prior questions/concerns. There remains the issue of viable support play in general but that is not within the scope of this proposal as it pertains more fully to other things such as the relative value of equipment on the battlefield. I would be tempted however to tweak a couple of aspects to hone in on the goal. To save on space I'm going to provide two links rather than quote First linkSecond linkThe TL;DR being - Bring logi base stats up to assault levels as assaults gain slots to match logi, then give assaults bonuses that add more 'gank' to their options as a counterbalance to the logi equipment slots. This keeps both Med specializations combat viable while making the assault always be the better slayer when comparing mirrored fits/specs. Thanks for the response and looking forward to your further thoughts here Cheers, Cross
I would be fine with logis having the same base stats if assaults have bonuses to damage, me and Aero Yassavi discussed it in his thread about differentiating assaults and commandos, and with my input her came up with this:
Aero Yassavi wrote:Premise
Assault Class: 2% increased damage to light weapons and sidearms per level
Amarr Assault: 5% decreased heat build up to laser weaponry per level
Caldari Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - rail weaponry per level
Gallente Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - blaster weaponry per level
Minmatar Assault: 5% increased magazine size to projectile weaponry per level
*adjusted based on Kagehoshi's feedback
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11034
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Posted - 2014.06.08 11:35:00 -
[64] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Ok, have read the thread and it is a masterpiece. One of the best yet. I would only like to mention a couple of things, all pertaining to the the basic frames. As you said, they cost more than specialized suits. I feel they should cost less than specialized suits. I t makes no sense for a middle-ground suit with no bonuses whatsoever to cost MORE than a suit with bonuses.
A problem I see though is the basic heavy & light. How would you fit them? Would you give the basic heavy an equipment slot to make up for it's lack of damage resistances and lack of 2 (edit) light weapon slots? Would you be opposed to making scouts only have 2 sidearm slots and the basic light frames having 1 light and 1 sidearm to help with make up for the scout bonuses?
I actually would like for basic frames to have bonuses, I have a thread on it but kind of forgot until now: here it is. I want the basic frame bonus to stack with the specializations as well (so an assault would have the assault bonuses AND the basic medium bonus), so there would be incentive to skill past basic level 3.
I have some ideas on how to make all basics frames from all sizes distinct from the specialization, I discuss them here; probably not perfect, but I think its a start. Basic heavy for example, I suggested removing sidearm and grenade, but add an equipment.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11036
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Posted - 2014.06.08 11:39:00 -
[65] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Ok, have read the thread and it is a masterpiece. One of the best yet. I would only like to mention a couple of things, all pertaining to the the basic frames. As you said, they cost more than specialized suits. I feel they should cost less than specialized suits. I t makes no sense for a middle-ground suit with no bonuses whatsoever to cost MORE than a suit with bonuses.
A problem I see though is the basic heavy & light. How would you fit them? Would you give the basic heavy an equipment slot to make up for it's lack of damage resistances and lack of 2 (edit) light weapon slots? Would you be opposed to making scouts only have 2 sidearm slots and the basic light frames having 1 light and 1 sidearm to help with make up for the scout bonuses? I actually would like for basic frames to have bonuses, I have a thread on it but kind of forgot until now: here it is. I want the basic frame bonus to stack with the specializations as well (so an assault would have the assault bonuses AND the basic medium bonus), so there would be incentive to skill past basic level 3. I have some ideas on how to make all basics frames from all sizes distinct from the specialization, I discuss them here; probably not perfect, but I think its a start. Basic heavy for example, I suggested removing sidearm and grenade, but add an equipment. Will definately look into these once sobered up. Give me some time, I'll be back on this soon. Or SoonGäó at the absolute latest. 
Alright, and I really appreciate the kind words 
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