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mollerz
Minja Scouts
1772
   |
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:
So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance?
I know right? He wants shotgun noises to go off, do some QOS SFX handling, buffers based on different geometry types to dcloak.
How about something simple? Eve style.. 99% cost reduction for s scout vs other classes, work out the proper math on that cost and voila.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11959
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:37:00 -
[152] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Brokerib wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Not much of a coding issue, just having something easier to buff when the rule state not only exists but can be something done over a hot patch instead of waiting for a monthly patch. This takes time, planning and creates what is known as technical debt, things that need to be done to be done and rather working on the next patches contents they're now hurdled down and doing rework over something that should have been done the first go around. Roll back mechanics and alternate functions can (and should) be programmed during the development cycle, as a standard for software development activities. They doesn't mean then need to be implemented immediately. Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also these days I can't wait for things to be in the game to see then have it nerfed, not with the upcoming schedule of how things are going to be soon. Remember our old roadmap is coming to an end and nobody around publically knows exactly what the new road map has in store yet. ...really? So you can't wait to see how things function in game before making a knee jerk reaction to it? Nice. I look forward to your nerf threads for the proposed changes to dropsuits. I'll say the same thing to you I've said to Kain. Still yet to see a proper explanation as to why the mechanic is so bad. And I'm starting to see that all these 'suggestions' are just an attempt to protect the current meta by nerfing an as of yet unreleased item so that it's of no use. If you don't like the mechanic, then petition to not have it introduced, don't push to nerf it. Say what you mean instead of trying to sabotage it. I invite you to take a stroll through all of the SDE and try to think how ccp thinks, you'll see the level atrocities they do commit currently. http://pct-gritb.rhcloud.com/sde/class So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance? My first question still stands. Can you explain why the mechanic is inherently broken and needs to be 'fixed' prior to knowing the full details of implementation or seeing how it plays in production? Feel free to use small words so I'll understand it.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/347/394/74a.jpg
Manage this situation.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11959
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:38:00 -
[153] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Brokerib wrote:
So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance?
I know right? He wants shotgun noises to go off, do some QOS SFX handling, buffers based on different geometry types to dcloak. How about something simple? Eve style.. 99% cost reduction for s scout vs other classes, work out the proper math on that cost and voila.
Hey mollerz mind stop being an idiot for once?
I said the distance you can hear a cloak is the same as that of a shotgun optimal range.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6387
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:40:00 -
[154] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m.
So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair.
Perhaps it really is a bad idea to implement a decloak distance after all. Considering the nature of how scouts have to move in a city, this can be a problem especially when being in a city will be bumping into everyone every 1 minute. I thought it would ok to implement since 1.5m (max) is about the distance in which you can kill with the nova knives but then it dawned on me...
What happens if I pass through a room where I have to go under an objective that is more than 1.5m above me but the system doesn't recognize up or down? Remember, when you use the active scanner you can see scanned targets well above you even when you're not aiming up towards them. The system seems to have a problem with separating up from down when it comes to things like this.
If this problem persists for cloaks, the decloak distance will become a headache for most scouts. There is also the problem with LAVs that just randomly pass by so imagine being decloaked just because an LAV came out from a corner. I don't know about you guys, but I would rather become street pizza because the driver didn't see me rather than become a fresh target for the turret gunner because I was too close to his LAV.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11959
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:40:00 -
[155] - Quote
OZAROW wrote:What I would like to know is:
GÇóAre the scouts base db an percision getting overhauled?
GÇóWill logistics bonuses make cloaking just as easy as a scout since they have more low slots than all but the gallente scouts the GÇócan damp to 15 an cloak? That's not right!
GÇóWhy do scouts lose the 5% db per level when it's obvious gal logistics will be FTOM an be able to find anyone
GÇóEquip bonuses an scout bonuses will make logistics more scout like than scouts .
GÇó if scouts lose the pd bonus did we acquire another slot, db change, or did you nerf the proto scanner?
GÇó if our lowest db is above the scanner an the cloak is super visable on a fast min scout with a h2h suit bonus does that not seem almost void to use if you stick out like a red thumb?
GÇó unless you reworked our suits an scanners does it not seem that you made it harder?
GÇó why can the cloak on a scout just be built into the suit with a bonus to its duration per level so we can use equip if we never got a second slot?
GÇó logistics will be able to scan, profile damp, use equip and cloak- something's not right
Assume worst case scenario.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11959
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:41:00 -
[156] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:mollerz wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m.
So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair. Perhaps it really is a bad idea to implement a decloak distance after all. Considering the nature of how scouts have to move in a city, this can be a problem especially when being in a city will be bumping into everyone every 1 minute. I thought it would ok to implement since 1.5m (max) is about the distance in which you can kill with the nova knives but then it dawned on me... What happens if I pass through a room where I have to go under an objective that is more than 1.5m above me but the system doesn't recognize up or down? Remember, when you use the active scanner you can see scanned targets well above you even when you're not aiming up towards them. The system seems to have a problem with separating up from down when it comes to things like this. If this problem persists for cloaks, the decloak distance will become a headache for most scouts. There is also the problem with LAVs that just randomly pass by so imagine being decloaked just because an LAV came out from a corner. I don't know about you guys, but I would rather become street pizza because the driver didn't see me rather than become a fresh target for the turret gunner because I was too close to his LAV.
Active scanners still have a max distance up and down though. you cannot scan targets if you're on top of the tower and you're trying to see things on the bottom of the tower unless you have a flux variant. Go play AWACs in a dropship.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6387
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:45:00 -
[157] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:mollerz wrote:Brokerib wrote:
So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance?
I know right? He wants shotgun noises to go off, do some QOS SFX handling, buffers based on different geometry types to dcloak. How about something simple? Eve style.. 99% cost reduction for s scout vs other classes, work out the proper math on that cost and voila. Hey mollerz mind stop being an idiot for once? I said the distance you can hear a cloak is the same as that of a shotgun optimal range.
I'm gonna have to agree with Mollerz on this. The sound you're looking for would be too loud. I would be ok with just the current default decloak sound you hear when you respawn. It is subtle and doesn't grab too much attention especially if people are busy getting shot at.
But if the current decloak respawn sound is kept for the cloaking equipment, then I expect nothing less of at least being able to immediately use a weapon when I decloak. No shooting delays. I don't want to suffer that mechanic that active scanners have.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6387
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:51:00 -
[158] - Quote
Overall, if shooting while cloaked is implemented, then I wish for the cloak to become fully depleted no matter which weapon you use. Maybe an exception for melee attacks or nova knives (uncharged) but everything else should cause the cloak to fully deplete on the first shot.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
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Scheneighnay McBob
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
3537
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:54:00 -
[159] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m.
So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair.
If I'm that damn close, I'm going to uncloak and shank their ass anyway.
We used to have a time machine
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11961
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:54:00 -
[160] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:mollerz wrote:Brokerib wrote:
So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance?
I know right? He wants shotgun noises to go off, do some QOS SFX handling, buffers based on different geometry types to dcloak. How about something simple? Eve style.. 99% cost reduction for s scout vs other classes, work out the proper math on that cost and voila. Hey mollerz mind stop being an idiot for once? I said the distance you can hear a cloak is the same as that of a shotgun optimal range. I'm gonna have to agree with Mollerz on this. The sound you're looking for would be too loud. I would be ok with just the current default decloak sound you hear when you respawn. It is subtle and doesn't grab too much attention especially if people are busy getting shot at. But if the current decloak respawn sound is kept for the cloaking equipment, then I expect nothing less of at least being able to immediately use a weapon when I decloak. No shooting delays. I don't want to suffer that mechanic that active scanners have.
What decloak sound? I was stabbing drop uplinks today and people decloaked right on top of it, no sound.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11961
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 02:56:00 -
[161] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:mollerz wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m.
So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair. If I'm that damn close, I'm going to uncloak and shank their ass anyway.
^This
Anyways we could two sounds possibly. A slower quieter one for the one you deactivate yourself, and a much louder one for when something else breaks it similar to the shield shattering noise.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6387
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 03:00:00 -
[162] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:mollerz wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m.
So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair. If I'm that damn close, I'm going to uncloak and shank their ass anyway. ^This Anyways we could two sounds possibly. A slower quieter one for the one you deactivate yourself, and a much louder one for when something else breaks it similar to the shield shattering noise.
Nah, just the slow quiet one for both situations.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
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Scheneighnay McBob
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
3537
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 03:23:00 -
[163] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:mollerz wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m.
So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair. If I'm that damn close, I'm going to uncloak and shank their ass anyway. ^This Anyways we could two sounds possibly. A slower quieter one for the one you deactivate yourself, and a much louder one for when something else breaks it similar to the shield shattering noise.
There's a shield shattering noise?
We used to have a time machine
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
207
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 03:25:00 -
[164] - Quote
Ok.
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner
+
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Flux_Grenade
With the changes to dampening bonus on scouts, there will be exactly one type of scout who will be able to sit invisible and not show up on a scan.
Seriously, do you have any actual reasoning for the cloak being a problem, aside from just not liking the idea? |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11968
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 05:08:00 -
[165] - Quote
Active scanner told you how many ninjas are out there. Flux grenade has been proven to be very unreliable (hence its unpopularity) in destroying equipment of any sort so decloaking is also less likely.
manage the situation.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6388
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 05:41:00 -
[166] - Quote
The Gallente scout Gk.0 will be something stealth players will go for. But honestly the Minmatar should be the go-to suit for speed and knife damage, the Amarr scout and Caldari scout... I'm not sure.
Of course we still don't know if stats like HP, slot layout, and others will change in the next update. If suit bonuses are being changed across the board, god knows what changes we will see to everything else.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
3229
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 05:43:00 -
[167] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:The Gallente scout Gk.0 will be something stealth players will go for. But honestly the Minmatar should be the go-to suit for speed and knife damage, the Amarr scout and Caldari scout... I'm not sure. Of course we still don't know if stats like HP, slot layout, and others will change in the next update. If suit bonuses are being changed across the board, god knows what changes we will see to everything else.
The Caldari scout should definitely be hacking.
You wanna battle / Aztec's not afraid of you / I could care less about your reputation / Even though it maybe true.
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6388
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 05:44:00 -
[168] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Active scanner told you how many ninjas are out there. Flux grenade has been proven to be very unreliable (hence its unpopularity) in destroying equipment of any sort so decloaking is also less likely. manage the situation.
The scanner will only tell you what it can see. If I'm wearing a profile damped suit, you won't see me. And if my profile is low enough still I will prevent the scanner from telling you of any margin of error.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
|
Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
207
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 06:53:00 -
[169] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Active scanner told you how many ninjas are out there. Flux grenade has been proven to be very unreliable (hence its unpopularity) in destroying equipment of any sort so decloaking is also less likely. manage the situation.
Still no reasoning.
Fine. More hypotheticals instead.
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner
+
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Locus_Grenade
or
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Mass_Driver
or
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Plasma_Cannon
or
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Heavy_Machine_Gun
or
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Orbital_Bombardment
Or how about this as an alternative.
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Heavy_Attack_Vehicles
+
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner_Modules
There's any number of scenarios that have a good chance of success when using a hard counter like the active scanner. Or passive scanning for that matter. Then there are also soft counters like scanning a room when you enter it or tossing a grenade at an installation to clear it.
Seriously, you already know all of this, its no different to handling scouts now, or checking for REs. You and every other vet has had to adjust to similar threats already. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11968
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 06:57:00 -
[170] - Quote
Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hit markers and reticule color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying.
BTW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
|
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
207
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 08:49:00 -
[171] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:First off all the above solutions you provided are needle in the haystacks firings and waste of good ammo. Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hitmarkers and reticle color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying. BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare
The Anti-sub article is an excellent and very apt piece, but it appears to be re-enforcing my point? So...thanks, I guess?
Like many forms of warfare, successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms.
So the counter for subs is to use sensors (active and passive scanning) to identify them, then explosive devices (AOE weapons) to neutralise. Sounds alot like the situation I've described above.
Firing an AOE weapon at the approximate location of an invisible suit is hardly a needle in a haystack, or a waste of ammo. In fact, firing at the approximate location of a suit is pretty much the primary purpose of AOE weapons. But if you need something extra, try aiming your weapon towards where the dot appears on your mini map, and then pull the trigger when it turns red?
With that, I've given you a total of 8 hypothetical counters for the one hypothetical situation involving cloaked suits so far. I'm happy to continue for as long as you like but for now, how about answering a question for me.
Are you able to explain what about the cloak make it so broken that the CPM is working together to pull off a nerf before it even makes it into game? What is so game changing that this level of engagement is required? Nothing you've mentioned so far explains the amount of effort you and Kain have put into destroying the cloak before its even released. It may be a bad mechanic, but the effort you've expended is so far out of proportion that's it's starting to seem like a troll.
So explain it to me. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11973
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 09:08:00 -
[172] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:First off all the above solutions you provided are needle in the haystacks firings and waste of good ammo. Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hitmarkers and reticle color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying. BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare The Anti-sub article is an excellent and very apt piece, but it appears to be re-enforcing my point? So...thanks, I guess? Like many forms of warfare, successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms.So the counter for subs is to use sensors (active and passive scanning) to identify them, then explosive devices (AOE weapons) to neutralise. Sounds alot like the situation I've described above. Firing an AOE weapon at the approximate location of an invisible suit is hardly a needle in a haystack, or a waste of ammo. In fact, firing at the approximate location of a suit is pretty much the primary purpose of AOE weapons. But if you need something extra, try aiming your weapon towards where the dot appears on your mini map, and then pull the trigger when it turns red? With that, I've given you a total of 8 hypothetical counters for the one hypothetical situation involving cloaked suits so far. I'm happy to continue for as long as you like but for now, how about answering a question for me. Are you able to explain what about the cloak make it so broken that the CPM is working together to pull off a nerf before it even makes it into game? What is so game changing that this level of engagement is required? Nothing you've mentioned so far explains the amount of effort you and Kain have put into destroying the cloak before its even released. It may be a bad mechanic, but the effort you've expended is so far out of proportion that's it's starting to seem like a troll. So explain it to me.
Actually it breaks your point quite a bit but since you're incapable of getting it. Lets play this again then
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ocean.jpg
I am a new generation diesel sub, I don't want to be found, Find me. All the old methods the old tech it don't work anymore, feel free to use them.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
775
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 09:30:00 -
[173] - Quote
i think its odd that someone such as IWS with his inside knowledge is afraid of "scouts" being forced to hold cloacks to maximize their suits.... when eventually other light frames that dont use cloaks will be released making it so that you WANT a suit specialised around cloaks |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11976
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 09:35:00 -
[174] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:i think its odd that someone such as IWS with his inside knowledge is afraid of "scouts" being forced to hold cloacks to maximize their suits.... when eventually other light frames that dont use cloaks will be released making it so that you WANT a suit specialised around cloaks
I am an Omni-soldier, I don't have a favorite fit and based on my insider knowledge I rather just delete cloaks, but knowing ccp I can't stop that.
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Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Grave Oblivion
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 09:39:00 -
[175] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Brokerib wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:First off all the above solutions you provided are needle in the haystacks firings and waste of good ammo. Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hitmarkers and reticle color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying. BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare The Anti-sub article is an excellent and very apt piece, but it appears to be re-enforcing my point? So...thanks, I guess? Like many forms of warfare, successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms.So the counter for subs is to use sensors (active and passive scanning) to identify them, then explosive devices (AOE weapons) to neutralise. Sounds alot like the situation I've described above. Firing an AOE weapon at the approximate location of an invisible suit is hardly a needle in a haystack, or a waste of ammo. In fact, firing at the approximate location of a suit is pretty much the primary purpose of AOE weapons. But if you need something extra, try aiming your weapon towards where the dot appears on your mini map, and then pull the trigger when it turns red? With that, I've given you a total of 8 hypothetical counters for the one hypothetical situation involving cloaked suits so far. I'm happy to continue for as long as you like but for now, how about answering a question for me. Are you able to explain what about the cloak make it so broken that the CPM is working together to pull off a nerf before it even makes it into game? What is so game changing that this level of engagement is required? Nothing you've mentioned so far explains the amount of effort you and Kain have put into destroying the cloak before its even released. It may be a bad mechanic, but the effort you've expended is so far out of proportion that's it's starting to seem like a troll. So explain it to me. Actually it breaks your point quite a bit but since you're incapable of getting it. Lets play this again then http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ocean.jpgI am a new generation diesel sub, I don't want to be found, Find me. All the old methods the old tech it don't work anymore, feel free to use them.
The new (active scanner) vds or variable depth sonar will find it I think |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11976
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 09:45:00 -
[176] - Quote
Grave Oblivion wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Brokerib wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:First off all the above solutions you provided are needle in the haystacks firings and waste of good ammo. Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hitmarkers and reticle color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying. BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare The Anti-sub article is an excellent and very apt piece, but it appears to be re-enforcing my point? So...thanks, I guess? Like many forms of warfare, successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms.So the counter for subs is to use sensors (active and passive scanning) to identify them, then explosive devices (AOE weapons) to neutralise. Sounds alot like the situation I've described above. Firing an AOE weapon at the approximate location of an invisible suit is hardly a needle in a haystack, or a waste of ammo. In fact, firing at the approximate location of a suit is pretty much the primary purpose of AOE weapons. But if you need something extra, try aiming your weapon towards where the dot appears on your mini map, and then pull the trigger when it turns red? With that, I've given you a total of 8 hypothetical counters for the one hypothetical situation involving cloaked suits so far. I'm happy to continue for as long as you like but for now, how about answering a question for me. Are you able to explain what about the cloak make it so broken that the CPM is working together to pull off a nerf before it even makes it into game? What is so game changing that this level of engagement is required? Nothing you've mentioned so far explains the amount of effort you and Kain have put into destroying the cloak before its even released. It may be a bad mechanic, but the effort you've expended is so far out of proportion that's it's starting to seem like a troll. So explain it to me. Actually it breaks your point quite a bit but since you're incapable of getting it. Lets play this again then http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ocean.jpgI am a new generation diesel sub, I don't want to be found, Find me. All the old methods the old tech it don't work anymore, feel free to use them. The new (active scanner) vds or variable depth sonar will find it I think
That does not work against acoustic active camo techniques deployed back in the 80s or just plain lack of knowledge on the scanning ship, what looks like a big rock is really a rock according to the sonar despite its submarine like shape. There are plenty of rocks like this around and even a couple old wrecks.
My passive sonar however just picked that up and I know exactly where you are at now.
Try again.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6388
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Posted - 2014.01.12 09:47:00 -
[177] - Quote
@broker
Well, the only concern I have is the ability to fire while cloaked. If the mechanic was designed so that firing even a single shot regardless of the weapon (sniper, smg, pistol, etc) would decloak the suit completely, then I wouldn't mind it being allowed to fire when cloaked. Perhaps even make an exception for nova knives (uncharged) or melee attacks when fitted on a Minmatar scout suit so that dedicated knifers can make the most of the cloak. I mean after all the Minmatar scout does need some cloak related bonus. The Amarr and Caldari scouts already have cloak-based bonuses such one for cooldown and another for firing.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
207
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Posted - 2014.01.12 09:50:00 -
[178] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Actually it breaks your point quite a bit but since you're incapable of getting it. Lets play this again then http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ocean.jpgI am a new generation diesel sub, I don't want to be found, Find me. All the old methods the old tech it don't work anymore, feel free to use them.
I'm done man. This hypothetical is even more far fetched than the last one. There is no 'new sub' and old tech that doesn't work any more, as the current equipment can be used to identify, find, or counter cloaked suits. The situation you describe is wildly inaccurate and in no way represents the in game situation.
And you're still unable to give me a strait answer as to how the cloaks break the game.
If it's so simple that you can represent it with pictures and snide remarks, surely you can write it down in a paragraph or two so even someone as slow as me can understand it.
At this point you're just trolling, and I'm not interested. I just hope that CCP reads the entire thread to see how baseless your nerf quest is. /unsubscribe |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
775
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Posted - 2014.01.12 09:51:00 -
[179] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:i think its odd that someone such as IWS with his inside knowledge is afraid of "scouts" being forced to hold cloacks to maximize their suits.... when eventually other light frames that dont use cloaks will be released making it so that you WANT a suit specialised around cloaks I am an Omni-soldier, I don't have a favorite fit and based on my insider knowledge I rather just delete cloaks, but knowing ccp I can't stop that.
the point is that its actually GOOD to have a light frame that specialises specifically in cloaks
becuase while we dont have other light frames right now, we will have other light roles other then "scout" in the future
i just found it odd that it was one of your cloak concerns that "scouts" would be almost forced ot run a cloak when at some point there will be other light frames for people who dont want to run a cloak
i do agree though, invisability in ANY game tends to break things there alomost no reasonable way to balance it in a game like this unlike say WoW where rogues are balacned entirely around their stealth. |
Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
208
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Posted - 2014.01.12 10:02:00 -
[180] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:@broker
Well, the only concern I have is the ability to fire while cloaked. If the mechanic was designed so that firing even a single shot regardless of the weapon (sniper, smg, pistol, etc) would decloak the suit completely, then I wouldn't mind it being allowed to fire when cloaked. Perhaps even make an exception for nova knives (uncharged) or melee attacks when fitted on a Minmatar scout suit so that dedicated knifers can make the most of the cloak. I mean after all the Minmatar scout does need some cloak related bonus. The Amarr and Caldari scouts already have cloak-based bonuses such one for cooldown and another for firing.
Now if a cloak allowed more than one shot to be fired without losing all of the cloak, then that might present problems.
I'm fine with the cloak dropping after the first shot. In fact, I'm fine with the cloak not being implemented at all so scouts don't end up pigeon-holed by a single piece of equipment.
I'm not fine with baseless nerf threads trying to add so much fine print to its usage that that its is completely ineffective. If people don't want it, then advocate for that. Pushing for a mega nerf under the guise of 'balance' is disingenuous at best.
That said, the devs have already told us that the cloak will drop in relation to firing a weapon. How about we wait to see the actual values involved and how it plays in game, before we attempt to pre-nerf based on hearsay... |
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