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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11749	Posted - 2014.01.09 20:25:00 - [1] - Quote Well, a not so quick bullet list since I keep getting bombarded on twitter. Fitting Cloaks must remain equipment. Must be difficult to fit. Is CPU Intensive Scout suits bonus should be high enough they can go full standard loadout with all other module slots. (this may mean the bonus might have to go much higher) Higher tier Commando, Lights, Mediums, Assaults, and Logistics would have to downgrade modules to fill all slots Usage Cannot activate while HP values are changing (neither positive or negative gains) A distinctive noise must accompany the cloak and decloak and has proximity priority in playing (in an even max number of sound channels are used, for example you're in a nanohive nest in a middle of a fire fight, the decloak sound still still play but you may not notice it still due to the other noises but it was played regardless.) Cloak sound range is similar to that of a shotgun Cloaks have an endurance time Cloaks have a cooldown time Cloaks have a disrupted time (that if cloak is involuntarily activated this is a penalized cooldown before regular starts) Cooldown can remain relatively short, while the disrupted time must be significantly long enough for a fire fight. Cloaks are forcibly deactivated by proximity to hackable objects such as vehicles, consoles, and OMS objects. Cloaks may be forcibly deactivated by proximity to hostile Cloaks might be forcibly deactivated by proximity to other friendly players even if they are cloaked. Suggested forced deactivation range 2 meters. Stressed movements could drain the cloak faster (anything that consumes stamina) Can issue squad commands, call in vehicles, and use orbital support while cloaked. Can climb ladders while cloaked Weapons No guns, no firing from cloaked, must deactivate then swap, the swap is going to be slightly delayed, if forcibly deactivated will swap to last used weapon. Cannot use other equipment or activate other equipment such as remote explosives. Meta Cloak progression should focus on cooldown or duration but not thresholds in shimmer or lowering the condition to which cloaks are disadvantaged. Cloak variants can play around with play trade off with how fast, how long, and shimmer limitation or even fitting (a lightweight fit cloak that is purely utter crap for example) Scout progression should focus on stealthing, damage, speed, sensors, fleeting tanks (high regen short endurance), hacking even but should only very lightly touch on cloaking bonuses. This prevents scouts from being shoe horned into MUST fitting cloaks. Examples Gal (Light Damage or Profile) Cal (Sensor range or Sensor Strength) Min (Sidearm damage or Hacking) Amarr (speed or base hp) This of course is working under the assumption that there will be no changes to the scanners and that cloaks might reduce the suit sig by half maybe. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11751	Posted - 2014.01.09 20:32:00 - [2] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: My greatest concern is that I will be able to simply toss one on my Gallogi. Overall the more I think about the more I think we just need a blanket fitting bonus to all specialist suits Scouts: cloak Assaults : upgrade modules (biotics and damage mods currently) Logi : Deployable Equipment Sentinel : heavy weapon Commando : light weapon CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11752	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:02:00 - [3] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Cloaks might be forcibly deactivated by proximity to other friendly players even if they are cloaked. - Only if you get rid of equipment spam. Check that. No, this has long been a ploy in warfare to disguise numbers A distinctive noise must accompany the cloak and decloak and has proximity priority in playing (in an even max number of sound channels are used, for example you're in a nanohive nest in a middle of a fire fight, the decloak sound still still play but you may not notice it still due to the other noises but it was played regardless.) - Why, to make it easier for players who already dont try to improve their situational awareness Cloaks are forcibly deactivated by proximity to hackable objects such as vehicles, consoles, and OMS objects. - Consoles and OMS objects already display messages when being hacked, players can go check them out or throw a grenade Is this new eden or daddy day care? If you don't understand don't comment. 1 other subject elsewhere; focus. 2 because you cannot improve sound pickup in the game itself by ingame means. 3 has nothing to do with things getting hacked. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11752	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:05:00 - [4] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Ironwolf, I have to disagree on cloaked vehicle call-in. During call-in is one of the few chances players have to mitigate a large and nearly indestructible vehicle from entering the play field. Call-in is fast enough already that a player not standing still should not die generally before their vehicle is called in, but the chance for someone to kill a tanker waiting for his tank and then to steal it is important for gameplay. Additionally, a dedicated vehicle driver has no disincentive not to fit a cloak, given that their dropsuit modules are hardly important. hmm I might have to change the vehicle call in then. Yeah Ill have to change that then. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11752	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:08:00 - [5] - Quote Galthur wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Usage Cannot activate while HP values are changing (neither positive or negative gains) Do you hate Gallente/Amaar armor tanks because it would be get shot twice (possibly by bluedot in FW), can't cloak for a minute or more Well the rules would apply to vehicles cloaks as well if ever brought in. This would also encourage the use of reppers over plates with cloaks. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11758	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:29:00 - [6] - Quote Galthur wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Galthur wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Usage Cannot activate while HP values are changing (neither positive or negative gains) Do you hate Gallente/Amaar armor tanks because it would be get shot twice (possibly by bluedot in FW), can't cloak for a minute or more Well the rules would apply to vehicles cloaks as well if ever brought in. This would also encourage the use of reppers over plates with cloaks. I would like to keep a few rule sets as possible between the different fields of combat. Vehicle cloaks this would be fine, as I said earlier just make it so you can activate cloak while armor is regening (not repair tool) this would expand customization options not decrease them to one build for Gal/Amaar while Cal/Min have many How about this then? Cannot activate while HP values are changing due to external influences (guns, hives, and repper tools currently) Cannot activate while other modules are active or cooling down. This should cover for both vehicles and infantry (should infantry get something similar in nature to cloaks in the future) CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11758	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:36:00 - [7] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: How do you see cloaks and sniper rifles interacting? If you have to use the equipment radial menu before firing, then you'll always have the scope sway to deal with. I was hoping cloaks would make sniping from locations other than the redline a viable option. One way to address this, if you insist on the decloaking before firing mechanic, is to let the trigger pull decloak you without firing, and then enable the ability to fire once you've completed decloaking. I don't seen cloaking snipers to be as large of a problem, mainly due to the fact that most sniper rifles cannot one shot people and those that can would like not be able to do so after the cloak is installed hopefully. Most snipers are idiots and don't move between firing especially when they're noted to being there. (where as I at least move positions if I know I been compromised) Overall decloaking by the player should be as easy as swapping a weapon, it shouldn't be cumbersome so if you're ditch sniping an unwary person on a roof you shoul dbe able to pull it off easy as you'll be out of noise range and you picking to lop his head off would be at your opportune moment not his. Player decloaking is also controlled so no disruptive cooldown and the regular cooldown could be sufficiently long enough to empty a sniper rifle (or just about any other weapon mayhaps exclude the forge gun and mass driver and shotgun due to large time to mag empty) where as a disrupted cloak you're going to be screwed until the threat loses interest or threat is eliminated. However this thinking only applies to the current crop of the average sniper. I haven't ran into any 'smart snipers' lately but I won't discount they don't exist and because I haven't ran into too many of them I have no idea how'd they use the cloak yet which is the big unknown on my end. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11758	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:37:00 - [8] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Also, could you poke CCP to see if they can release a short clip of the cloaking effects, stationary, in motion, sprinting, etc? They could make it clear that the footage is not final, still in development, etc. Depends, I can poke but I can't get any promises of early public release. Marketing is like that sometimes ><. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11760	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:48:00 - [9] - Quote pagl1u M wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cannot activate while HP values are changing (neither positive or negative gains) Dang, this means that cloaking will be useless on suits with armor reppers. Explain this plz. So of my shields or my armor are recharging I Cannot activate it. It looks Strange to me A stealth fighter loses all radar invisibility while the RAM (radar absorbent material) is damage, a small nick is enough to compromise the entire craft. So as long as the field and armor is comprised since cloaking is a rather extensive system relying on both systems to mask visual and electronic signatures if the systems is computing repairs and the entire system is unwhole it cannot effectively cloak while the values of the systems changes at the same time but once either system is full up it can then cloak up. That was the original thought behind the statement. After applying the rule I played it out in my head a bit on the balance aspects for the game That most being involving vehicles Vehicles are already quite powerful and hard to kill the last thing I know players would hate to see is a damaged tank running off and ploof! disappears. I also wanted as few exceptions (ie commando gets a special penalty for using cloaks for example) on the cloaks so I kept the rule the same for infantry. I do know that if you do an armor suite tank instead of a focus type tank the hp gain rates are indeed awfully low but the focus ones can repair extensively faster than some people can cope with. But overall I think the adjusted bullet point of making it only external factors of the HP are counted and not internal ones while adding a new rule about other active modules should make it fair to both vehicles and infantry, vehicles now have to time their wave of opportunity better as some modules have an exhaustively long cooldown and that cloaking does put the vehicle into a state of weakness of sorts as there will be no hardeners or damage, or navigation modules to assist their survival should they be compromised going into cloaks or coming out of it disruptively. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11761	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:49:00 - [10] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: How about this then? Cannot activate while HP values are changing due to external influences (guns, hives, and repper tools currently) Cannot activate while other modules are active or cooling down. This should cover for both vehicles and infantry (should infantry get something similar in nature to cloaks in the future) I like it. Add it to the OP if you haven't already. Done. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11761	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:53:00 - [11] - Quote Spademan wrote: What would you think of the hypothetical idea of scout suits coming with built-in cloaks? I can also see this working if done right, but this does remove some sandbox if there is no module to compliment this as I would like to see a commando try to shove on a cloak for the lulz at least. There has to be the module at least even if done this way and the module has to be true built in not provided yellow box (as in you cannot see it on the fitting screen list of modules) CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11761	Posted - 2014.01.09 21:57:00 - [12] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Everything Dies wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: My greatest concern is that I will be able to simply toss one on my Gallogi. I'm sure you'll be seeing it most any suit types...so long as players are comfortable giving up equipment/module strength in return. Meh I'm used to running with no modules....basic commando has made me efficient without modules. EDIT: and I WILL BE equipping cloaks to my commando suit, unless ccp decided to give me more slots, other wise I have all of this unused pg and cpu. I think the concern with gal logi is slapping one one and remaining near full strength still. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11764	Posted - 2014.01.09 22:01:00 - [13] - Quote Ghermard-ol Dizeriois wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vehicles are already quite powerful and hard to kill the last thing I know players would hate to see is a damaged tank running off and ploof! disappears. That already happens - say thanks to current game rendering. That can be fixed though over time, I don't want this to be like oh dear middle fire fight! Poof! Ninja tank! CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11764	Posted - 2014.01.09 22:26:00 - [14] - Quote Medical Crash wrote: Will cloaks do anything to a Dropsuits signature? Will it help to hide against scanners? that is the other big unknown at the time I wished scanners got altered in such a way they would be better for both scanner and scannee in making the game funner. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11773	Posted - 2014.01.09 22:54:00 - [15] - Quote Galthur wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: pagl1u M wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cannot activate while HP values are changing (neither positive or negative gains) Dang, this means that cloaking will be useless on suits with armor reppers. Explain this plz. So of my shields or my armor are recharging I Cannot activate it. It looks Strange to me A stealth fighter loses all radar invisibility while the RAM (radar absorbent material) is damage, a small nick is enough to compromise the entire craft. So as long as the field and armor is comprised since cloaking is a rather extensive system relying on both systems to mask visual and electronic signatures if the systems is computing repairs and the entire system is unwhole it cannot effectively cloak while the values of the systems changes at the same time but once either system is full up it can then cloak up. That was the original thought behind the statement. After applying the rule I played it out in my head a bit on the balance aspects for the game That most being involving vehicles Vehicles are already quite powerful and hard to kill the last thing I know players would hate to see is a damaged tank running off and ploof! disappears. I also wanted as few exceptions (ie commando gets a special penalty for using cloaks for example) on the cloaks so I kept the rule the same for infantry. I do know that if you do an armor suite tank instead of a focus type tank the hp gain rates are indeed awfully low but the focus ones can repair extensively faster than some people can cope with. But overall I think the adjusted bullet point of making it only external factors of the HP are counted and not internal ones while adding a new rule about other active modules should make it fair to both vehicles and infantry, vehicles now have to time their wave of opportunity better as some modules have an exhaustively long cooldown and that cloaking does put the vehicle into a state of weakness of sorts as there will be no hardeners or damage, or navigation modules to assist their survival should they be compromised going into cloaks or coming out of it disruptively. Your destroying my dreams of a cloaked Gallente Commando with AR and PLC but yeah any chance CCP could buff the skill that decreases PLC PG/CPU? Am not also the gal commando or minmatar might have fitting for it. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11780	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:45:00 - [16] - Quote mollerz wrote: I think this (what the 6th cloaking thread?) thread should be considered garbage. What we have here is a CPM bullet pointing a self chosen list that completely disregards scout input. That's the most medium oriented list of demands I ever saw. More than half of those bullet points are pure trash meant to nerf the cloak before it even comes out. pathetic. cloaking has been in eve for 8 years, its the most complained about feature to this day that has yet to be nerfed, namely on the grounds a guy sitting middle of nowhere can never be found ever even if he afks for months on end while cloaked. Only one nerf was ever thrown on it and it only affected non covert ships the most. Knowing that track record its best to bring it in prenerfed. Than pre-lame. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11781	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:55:00 - [17] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: mollerz wrote: I think this (what the 6th cloaking thread?) thread should be considered garbage. What we have here is a CPM bullet pointing a self chosen list that completely disregards scout input. That's the most medium oriented list of demands I ever saw. More than half of those bullet points are pure trash meant to nerf the cloak before it even comes out. pathetic. cloaking has been in eve for 8 years, its the most complained about feature to this day that has yet to be nerfed, namely on the grounds a guy sitting middle of nowhere can never be found ever even if he afks for months on end while cloaked. Only one nerf was ever thrown on it and it only affected non covert ships the most. Knowing that track record its best to bring it in prenerfed. Than pre-lame. Considering the scout's bonus and role has to deal with the cloak is should NOT come prenerfed. You then bring this already weak role into a position where it's even weaker because it's bonus deals with a piece of a equipment that would be near useless for anything but walking around when nobody is around. Im trying to get rid of cloaking bonuses on scouts to be honest, Scouts should be viable without them. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11783	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:06:00 - [18] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Then why have cloaks in the first place if they're just cumbersome and useless? I do not agree with this direction. I despise the mere idea that a scout without cloak is utterly effing useless, might as well replace him with a gal logi who will outrun, out tank, outstelath, outscan, and out cloak the scout. I know there are some good scout players out there able to weave and dance on urban fields right now but the class is so heavily gimped and role stomped on and that giving them cloak bonuses is really not going to fix it because soon as it wears what then? Scout will likely be gimped worse with the cloak module installed, they lose out on the equipment slot so no more covert insertions, no more sabotage, no more scanning. While the gal logi presses button does 360 and still spots you through the cloak. That alone already has pre nerfed the cloak entirely. Most of this is to make it so that it won't be overly abused by more powerful suits such as commandos, assaults, and logistics as well as rules to apply to vehicles. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11784	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:17:00 - [19] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I agree that a scout should be able to do it's job with or without a cloak however most considerations of this cloaking is going directly towards other suits and not the scout. It is clearly being balanced/discussed for other frames and not the scout. Do something about other frames equipping the cloak instead of trying to make it a one cloak fits all. Give scouts something that's their own instead of the ****** place they have now. Cept this is supposed to be a sandbox game. By doing a full restriction to scouts only is a step in the wrong direction as it would move the game closer to that of class based shooters (we're classless still) While true the heavies do have the only means of equipping heavy weapons we do know that there been previous instances of mediums having heavies, and its not the only platform with heavy weapons (drones have up to 4 heavies and it was suggested drones could be hijacked to kill its brethren) The generic tech 1 items have to be usable by the many but at a cost. The suggestions in this thread are part of that cost. The tech 2 cloak if ever brought in would do away with more of these restrictions and then you can slap that on an equally nich'ed tech 2 suit. However that is another fight overall. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11788	Posted - 2014.01.10 01:09:00 - [20] - Quote mollerz wrote: Usage - BOOLSHITE. mostly. repair, damage I agree. nanohives and supply depot yes you remain cloaked. Cannot activate as long as another active module is cycling, or cooling down - Example? - BOOLSHITE. Why not make the whole thing out of bells and tin cans. F stealth right? - WHAT!? That is so .. just bad. lame. Are we breaking the sonic boom? Why? Defeats stealth. NO. - Better be long as . - ok. But skill based. - you mean involuntarily deactivated? -OK. Skill based tho. - WHAT?! B00LSHITE. If contact is made ok. - SAME AS ABOVE B00LSHITE. IF they shoot you or melee you or contact you OK. OUT OF THE BOX B00LSHITE. If contact is made. - B00LSHITE. Contact. As long as scout's meter is long and strong. - Hmm... well.. B00LSHITE. - Of Course. - Only if turned off via very easy and only on purpose. Nothing accidental due to ** wheel mechanics. - um Ok. Weapons NOPE. NOPE. With regards to RE- what is the difference? Usually a scout is across the map doing something else when he detonates. The first shot, melee, or knife charge/slahs will pop a cloak. Not raising a weapon. Meta Cloak progression should focus on cooldown or duration but not thresholds in shimmer or lowering the condition to which cloaks are disadvantaged.- NOPE. Why hamstring it? Sandbox it.You even contradict yourself in the next two suggestions - Sure why not? Ok.[/b] - GET BETTER EXAMPLES. [/list] This of course is working under the assumption that there will be no changes to the scanners and that cloaks might reduce the suit sig by half maybe. You should wait for that then cause this list is pfffrghrgtt.. a heavy full diaper. Re: Cloak while speed healing : This was done to prevent stealthers from tanking while remaining invisible. Mostly for vehicles though and heavier infantry from just getting repped tool back up while being difficult to hit. Re: Active Modules : once again mostly vehicles, this however does apply to infantry in case a second module like the cloak is added like some sort of berserker or hulk mode. Re: Noise level : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g Re: Noise Range : Shotgun noise range is pretty low actually; and just because you're invisible does not make you heard, ethereal, or unobservable of other physics involved such as the foot pad noise you're going to make while landing after a jump or the noise you make climbing a ladder. Re: Endurance Time : Agreeably it can be long as needed to cover majority of situations, in my opinion you should be able to go from letter to letter fully cloaked and have some in reserve still if one runs the way there (but may come short if user sprinted instead) Re: Cooldown and Disruption Timer : Cooldown is when the player ended the cloak himself or cloak runs out on its own. Disruption + cooldown is when the player's cloak is broken by outside forces such as nearby power sources shorting it out, or weapons fire. Thus this becomes a cloak operator concern. I can see skills playing into how long disruption time is (like 10% reduction per cloak level) Cooldown is a short breather similar to that of a stamina and one shouldn't have to wait too long to reactivate if the cooldown was player purposed, disruptions are however much longer and should last as long as an engagement window normally for scouts. Re: Decloak range to power sources. It may be possible to change the distances for each, the idea is to prevent camping, and using these objects as means of crosshair camo. As for infantry contact range is immensely short in this game and most of the time neither party can reliably hit each other at that range. Re: Vehicle call down, someone already pointed it would be abused to hell by dedicated pilots to call down vehicles safely without getting shot. Re: Deactivation on purpose; wheel needs fixing, especially considering you can still order squads while cloaked >< Re: Other stuff usage; You only have two hands and you're holding down the cloak button basically while running around. Re: This was inferring to cloaks itself going up in metas it should never boil down to one getting a prototype level cloack and be able to approach a hostile player in his field of view and pop him in the head with a shotgun. Re: Better Examples ; Open ears. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11788	Posted - 2014.01.10 01:10:00 - [21] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I agree that a scout should be able to do it's job with or without a cloak however most considerations of this cloaking is going directly towards other suits and not the scout. It is clearly being balanced/discussed for other frames and not the scout. Do something about other frames equipping the cloak instead of trying to make it a one cloak fits all. Give scouts something that's their own instead of the ****** place they have now. Cept this is supposed to be a sandbox game. By doing a full restriction to scouts only is a step in the wrong direction as it would move the game closer to that of class based shooters (we're classless still) While true the heavies do have the only means of equipping heavy weapons we do know that there been previous instances of mediums having heavies, and its not the only platform with heavy weapons (drones have up to 4 heavies and it was suggested drones could be hijacked to kill its brethren) The generic tech 1 items have to be usable by the many but at a cost. The suggestions in this thread are part of that cost. The tech 2 cloak if ever brought in would do away with more of these restrictions and then you can slap that on an equally nich'ed tech 2 suit. However that is another fight overall. Now you're talking about stuff that doesn't exist and most likely wont exist for the years to come. Have to start somewhere. It is much easier to give than to take away. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11795	Posted - 2014.01.10 02:48:00 - [22] - Quote Ahsa I understood the video to the point that active scanners don't fit into the concept at all and that cloaks can easily be just as bad. Non cloakers could feel more than entirely helpless to deal with a cloaker if it comes in too powerfully. The idea is to make both players have fun with the mechanic. Not make either side miserable with it. Cloaks have tragically always feel into making it very unfun for every non cloaker out there. Optical Cloaks also don't make you magically quieter. I also said nothing about volume of the noise I said hearing distance is same of that of shotguns which isn't that far of a range. How is it different from sprinting from cover? Ask the guys who get their tanks stolen all the time in FW to lead to a kick spree. They make push buttons too. We dont have any video examples of the shimmer at work and we don't need prototype level + skills + mods = no shimmer. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11800	Posted - 2014.01.10 04:50:00 - [23] - Quote Kuroiokami Tsukinaku wrote: Iron Wolf Saber How about this then? [* wrote: Cannot activate while HP values are changing due to external influences (guns, hives, and repper tools currently) Cannot activate while other modules are active or cooling down. This should cover for both vehicles and infantry (should infantry get something similar in nature to cloaks in the future) Soooo if I'm a scout.. I cloak..and run over a hive I lose cloak? Or newbie greifing logibro trys to rep me and I lose cloak? Cannot activate* Also I think friendlies should not be able to lock you with repair tools becuase that be an ahole thing to do (considering the animation for repair will likely continue to play while you're invisible thus already giving your position away, way to go awoxer!) CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11811	Posted - 2014.01.10 06:04:00 - [24] - Quote Spectre-M wrote: Valve did cloaks well. That cloak is more suitable to a twitch shooting lobby also there are plenty of anti cloak tools available and two classes that are opted to take on the spy however it is one of those classes that has been most lauded for balance and constant need for changes. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11814	Posted - 2014.01.10 07:38:00 - [25] - Quote Faquira Bleuetta wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: That cloak is more suitable to a twitch shooting lobby are u ******* kidding me ? just stop arguing and contradict urself TF2 is a high reflex shooter aka twitch shooting. The style implemented requires extremely fast reflexes to counter and deal with which is nearly a world apart form dust 514's lightly more tactical pace. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11818	Posted - 2014.01.10 08:07:00 - [26] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Quote: Cloaks are forcibly deactivated by proximity to hackable objects such as vehicles, consoles, and OMS objects. Cloaks may be forcibly deactivated by proximity to hostile infantry. I have a problem with these points. It's already enough that I would be required to decloak first anyways in order to fire a weapon or hack an objective. But to be forcibly decloak just because of proximity is too much of a nerf especially considering the nature of CQC scouts like me. Cloaks will be practically useless for me if this kind of limit is imposed. We can keep the range of decloaks very small though, its not supposed to be a tool to take on an entire squad in one go. Rather to be more like a raptor, picking off targets one at a time. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11819	Posted - 2014.01.10 08:24:00 - [27] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Examples Gal (Light Damage or Profile) Cal (Sensor range or Sensor Strength) Min (Sidearm damage or Hacking) Amarr (speed or base hp) [/list] This of course is working under the assumption that there will be no changes to the scanners and that cloaks might reduce the suit sig by half maybe. Oh please don't have the Amarr Scout bonus be to base hp. These are scouts, HP is their weakness. To make a suit more specialized, you focus on the strengths, not the weaknesses. Also I disagree that the cloaks should reduce the user's profile signature. The relationship between profile signature, scan precision, and active scanner precision should be a very close one carefully based around the base values and impact of fitting dampener modules. It should be completely separated from cloaking. If you are cloaked, you should still be vulnerable to scans. Of course, being scanned would only place you on the radar. It would not break your cloak nor would it display your chevron. Well been talking with the scouts from the registrar there was a suggestion to give the scouts (thus light suit skill) a bonus to electronics and biotics function and fitting instead, this works out because cloaks being electronics more likely would be classed to benefit while logistics class wont be. Right now been prodding them on what the other unique to race bonus should be. Amarr overall are still the highest ehp race in the game and should remain so. There is a worlds of a difference between a scout and assault anyways in terms of HP values so extra 20-30- even 40 hp is not that much in the eyes of those killing scouts from day to day, but it is a razor thin advantage for a scout none the less. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11820	Posted - 2014.01.10 08:29:00 - [28] - Quote The Black Art wrote: I think being able to fire while cloaked would be ok if the cooldown was longer than if you decloaked first then fired, longer by a decent margin. The only problem with this is that if the cooldown resets on death, shotgun scouts basically get a free kill every time they spawn. most shotty scouts can't run that mentality its cost inefficent and knowing cloaks from eve they're going to be expensive and would likely double the price of any suit they're attached to. This has more to do with the amount of tech going into the module to make them though eve side. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11827	Posted - 2014.01.10 15:46:00 - [29] - Quote The Black Art wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: The Black Art wrote: I think being able to fire while cloaked would be ok if the cooldown was longer than if you decloaked first then fired, longer by a decent margin. The only problem with this is that if the cooldown resets on death, shotgun scouts basically get a free kill every time they spawn. most shotty scouts can't run that mentality its cost inefficent and knowing cloaks from eve they're going to be expensive and would likely double the price of any suit they're attached to. This has more to do with the amount of tech going into the module to make them though eve side. Maybe in pubs, but in PC, getting a free kill on a high priority target is well worth the suit price. I am pretty sure cost efficiency still is a factor in PC, just right now we have no means to make it impactful without the secondary market to make rarer gear readily supplyable. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11832	Posted - 2014.01.10 16:14:00 - [30] - Quote pseudosnipre wrote: Hi, After reading your list I have just one question: From your point of view as a CPM member, in which situations do you see the cloak (with your prescribed characteristics) being useful? Thank you. Getting from C to D safely. Getting into a very noisy equipment nest and getting the initial first strike in to wipe out most of the equipment causing a big enough distraction so that your squad a can get the drop on them while they deal with the sacrificial scout. Raptoring a squad to death. Flanking a sniper. Getting up a ladder. Crossing a front line without notice to go hack things behind the soldiers and taking out their uplinks. Camping a HAV pilot doing the recall and call down. Many more clandestine operations that involves getting the cloaker to places where nobody is looking, or there is only or two guys not paying attention there. Many people seemed to be confused about the shotgun range sound. 1 the noise level is not that high and is about the same as everything else. 2. I was inferring to the range of hearing the sound, if you're outside of shotgun range you won't hear it. This does not stop the cloaker from decloaking and getting into range while you're looking away. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11840	Posted - 2014.01.10 17:32:00 - [31] - Quote 1.5 meters sounds like a good compromise. As for the cloaks its only covert cloaks, it was done for bomber squadrons. As for dust 514, I am hesitant to see what a squad of cloakers would do that is a big guess work into the void on figuring out what a cloaked squad can accomplish. However so is the decloak near friendlies being on a might list instead of the must list. Friendlies can be jack hats at times and ruin what you are trying do so that's why its in the might category. Its something that can go either way. However with hostiles its more understandable to get decloaked by a hostile cloaker. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11843	Posted - 2014.01.10 18:02:00 - [32] - Quote Look guys I am able to negotiate if it means for the better of both cloaker and victim. Anyways updating the proximity range. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11848	Posted - 2014.01.10 19:39:00 - [33] - Quote C to D could be open space and point b which looks over it is full of hostiles and its a sniper ally. Getting into nests is still very hard to do with all guns pointed in your general direction with no flankable option. I surely do not jest, a good scout can raptor a squad to death currently this tool would help them a bit. Depends on the sniper first being the corner sniper where you cannot flank said sniper for his sniper alley is the same as the only ways to get to him. The second of which is the recon snipers the ones that don't hug their scopes all the time and only pick off targets of oppertunity. Red reticule hunting is needle in the haystack. You would know if you got hit with the worst of the render bug. Hunters are creatures who thrive on creatures of habbit, those that constantly call and recall their tanks or always call their tanks in one spot of the map are most prone to being victims. FW has taught many this. It can be easily a problem on the smaller maps, also the cloak would save travel time by not having to take the massively long route. Hence the better use as a mobility tool and not a weapon. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11863	Posted - 2014.01.10 22:58:00 - [34] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I agree that the cloak will be an excellent mobility tool. The biggest issue we ninjas always have with big maps is the lack of cover. Any cover in those large maps are always few and far in between. This forces us to take extremely long routes that take up a chunk of our time to get to our destination. And if by any chance we get caught before uplinks can be set, we have to start all over and by then it is likely that the same route we took is no longer safe. This is most apparent in maps like line harvest, iron delta, and spine crescent or that somewhat-recent crater map. Cover is paramount to a scout. Without it, we are relegated to being literally on the sidelines for most of the match. That's no fun for us ninjas. This is where one area cloaks will shine or should shine the best. In CQC is should be more for the ability to hide in a corner catch a breather plan the next step before going out to snatch another person out of the squad you're harassing. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11874	Posted - 2014.01.11 00:38:00 - [35] - Quote mollerz wrote: How about first, you stop advocating nerfing the cloak? Why dont you bring something to the table instead of flipping it every second? CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11887	Posted - 2014.01.11 03:39:00 - [36] - Quote mollerz wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: mollerz wrote: How about first, you stop advocating nerfing the cloak? Why dont you bring something to the table instead of flipping it every second? I have. I thought you read this forum top to bottom? Whatever it was; it did not warrant my attention long enough. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11916	Posted - 2014.01.11 17:12:00 - [37] - Quote Not much of a coding issue, just having something easier to buff when the rule state not only exists but can be something done over a hot patch instead of waiting for a monthly patch. This takes time, planning and creates what is known as technical debt, things that need to be done to be done and rather working on the next patches contents they're now hurdled down and doing rework over something that should have been done the first go around. Also these days I can't wait for things to be in the game to see then have it nerfed, not with the upcoming schedule of how things are going to be soon. Remember our old roadmap is coming to an end and nobody around publically knows exactly what the new road map has in store yet. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11922	Posted - 2014.01.11 18:12:00 - [38] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well, a not so quick bullet list since I keep getting bombarded on twitter. Please do debate points, if it's good enough argument I can see about adjusting and you also get to understand the bullet point a bit. Other than forced proximity deactivation (not really necessary with a noise + firing delay) you have basically exactly described Planetside 2 cloaks, which imho are probably one of the best balanced cloaks in gaming. Their duration/recharge/limitations are almost exactly right. PS2 cloaks persists through lethal amounts of damage, which is their most excessively overpowered point they still have. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11940	Posted - 2014.01.11 23:12:00 - [39] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Not much of a coding issue, just having something easier to buff when the rule state not only exists but can be something done over a hot patch instead of waiting for a monthly patch. This takes time, planning and creates what is known as technical debt, things that need to be done to be done and rather working on the next patches contents they're now hurdled down and doing rework over something that should have been done the first go around. Roll back mechanics and alternate functions can (and should) be programmed during the development cycle, as a standard for software development activities. They doesn't mean then need to be implemented immediately. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Also these days I can't wait for things to be in the game to see then have it nerfed, not with the upcoming schedule of how things are going to be soon. Remember our old roadmap is coming to an end and nobody around publically knows exactly what the new road map has in store yet. ...really? So you can't wait to see how things function in game before making a knee jerk reaction to it? Nice. I look forward to your nerf threads for the proposed changes to dropsuits. I'll say the same thing to you I've said to Kain. Still yet to see a proper explanation as to why the mechanic is so bad. And I'm starting to see that all these 'suggestions' are just an attempt to protect the current meta by nerfing an as of yet unreleased item so that it's of no use. If you don't like the mechanic, then petition to not have it introduced, don't push to nerf it. Say what you mean instead of trying to sabotage it. I invite you to take a stroll through all of the SDE and try to think how ccp thinks, you'll see the level atrocities they do commit currently. http://pct-gritb.rhcloud.com/sde/class CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11940	Posted - 2014.01.11 23:13:00 - [40] - Quote mollerz wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Knowing CCP it is far far far easier to ask for a buff than a nerf. It is far easier to get these hooks and mechanics in so they can work with other things in the future instead of having to go back reprogram it and recreate a new technical hurdle to nerf it. @Garret Blacknova That's inferring coding problems that don't exist as a reason for making a shogun blast level noise when you decloak. All this theorization about prenerfing in order to barely not get nerfed or massively nerfed.. OR OR? Think of the logis for god sake man!? GTFO with that nonsense. Just preliminaries that logis are going to out cloak scouts. Even worse the active scanner is supposively going to be the anti-cloaking tool, guess who has two equipment slots to do both? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1708873#post1708873 CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11959	Posted - 2014.01.12 02:37:00 - [41] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Not much of a coding issue, just having something easier to buff when the rule state not only exists but can be something done over a hot patch instead of waiting for a monthly patch. This takes time, planning and creates what is known as technical debt, things that need to be done to be done and rather working on the next patches contents they're now hurdled down and doing rework over something that should have been done the first go around. Roll back mechanics and alternate functions can (and should) be programmed during the development cycle, as a standard for software development activities. They doesn't mean then need to be implemented immediately. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Also these days I can't wait for things to be in the game to see then have it nerfed, not with the upcoming schedule of how things are going to be soon. Remember our old roadmap is coming to an end and nobody around publically knows exactly what the new road map has in store yet. ...really? So you can't wait to see how things function in game before making a knee jerk reaction to it? Nice. I look forward to your nerf threads for the proposed changes to dropsuits. I'll say the same thing to you I've said to Kain. Still yet to see a proper explanation as to why the mechanic is so bad. And I'm starting to see that all these 'suggestions' are just an attempt to protect the current meta by nerfing an as of yet unreleased item so that it's of no use. If you don't like the mechanic, then petition to not have it introduced, don't push to nerf it. Say what you mean instead of trying to sabotage it. I invite you to take a stroll through all of the SDE and try to think how ccp thinks, you'll see the level atrocities they do commit currently. http://pct-gritb.rhcloud.com/sde/class So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance? My first question still stands. Can you explain why the mechanic is inherently broken and needs to be 'fixed' prior to knowing the full details of implementation or seeing how it plays in production? Feel free to use small words so I'll understand it. http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/347/394/74a.jpg Manage this situation. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11959	Posted - 2014.01.12 02:38:00 - [42] - Quote mollerz wrote: Brokerib wrote: So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance? I know right? He wants shotgun noises to go off, do some QOS SFX handling, buffers based on different geometry types to dcloak. How about something simple? Eve style.. 99% cost reduction for s scout vs other classes, work out the proper math on that cost and voila. Hey mollerz mind stop being an idiot for once? I said the distance you can hear a cloak is the same as that of a shotgun optimal range. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11959	Posted - 2014.01.12 02:40:00 - [43] - Quote OZAROW wrote: What I would like to know is: GÇóAre the scouts base db an percision getting overhauled? GÇóWill logistics bonuses make cloaking just as easy as a scout since they have more low slots than all but the gallente scouts the GÇócan damp to 15 an cloak? That's not right! GÇóWhy do scouts lose the 5% db per level when it's obvious gal logistics will be FTOM an be able to find anyone GÇóEquip bonuses an scout bonuses will make logistics more scout like than scouts . GÇó if scouts lose the pd bonus did we acquire another slot, db change, or did you nerf the proto scanner? GÇó if our lowest db is above the scanner an the cloak is super visable on a fast min scout with a h2h suit bonus does that not seem almost void to use if you stick out like a red thumb? GÇó unless you reworked our suits an scanners does it not seem that you made it harder? GÇó why can the cloak on a scout just be built into the suit with a bonus to its duration per level so we can use equip if we never got a second slot? GÇó logistics will be able to scan, profile damp, use equip and cloak- something's not right Assume worst case scenario. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11959	Posted - 2014.01.12 02:41:00 - [44] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: mollerz wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m. So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair. Perhaps it really is a bad idea to implement a decloak distance after all. Considering the nature of how scouts have to move in a city, this can be a problem especially when being in a city will be bumping into everyone every 1 minute. I thought it would ok to implement since 1.5m (max) is about the distance in which you can kill with the nova knives but then it dawned on me... What happens if I pass through a room where I have to go under an objective that is more than 1.5m above me but the system doesn't recognize up or down? Remember, when you use the active scanner you can see scanned targets well above you even when you're not aiming up towards them. The system seems to have a problem with separating up from down when it comes to things like this. If this problem persists for cloaks, the decloak distance will become a headache for most scouts. There is also the problem with LAVs that just randomly pass by so imagine being decloaked just because an LAV came out from a corner. I don't know about you guys, but I would rather become street pizza because the driver didn't see me rather than become a fresh target for the turret gunner because I was too close to his LAV. Active scanners still have a max distance up and down though. you cannot scan targets if you're on top of the tower and you're trying to see things on the bottom of the tower unless you have a flux variant. Go play AWACs in a dropship. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11961	Posted - 2014.01.12 02:54:00 - [45] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: mollerz wrote: Brokerib wrote: So you're going to combat this by increasing the level of complexity involved in coding the cloaks and giving them a greater number of factors to balance? I know right? He wants shotgun noises to go off, do some QOS SFX handling, buffers based on different geometry types to dcloak. How about something simple? Eve style.. 99% cost reduction for s scout vs other classes, work out the proper math on that cost and voila. Hey mollerz mind stop being an idiot for once? I said the distance you can hear a cloak is the same as that of a shotgun optimal range. I'm gonna have to agree with Mollerz on this. The sound you're looking for would be too loud. I would be ok with just the current default decloak sound you hear when you respawn. It is subtle and doesn't grab too much attention especially if people are busy getting shot at. But if the current decloak respawn sound is kept for the cloaking equipment, then I expect nothing less of at least being able to immediately use a weapon when I decloak. No shooting delays. I don't want to suffer that mechanic that active scanners have. What decloak sound? I was stabbing drop uplinks today and people decloaked right on top of it, no sound. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11961	Posted - 2014.01.12 02:56:00 - [46] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: mollerz wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: The 1.5m forced deactivation range isn't actually bad- my knife kills tend to be at about 2m. So basically, forced deactivation would just be if you bumped into a red. False. That is bad. You must not knife often if you don't realize what a 1.5m decloak buffer would be. CQC is way to fubar for that to be fair. If I'm that damn close, I'm going to uncloak and shank their ass anyway. ^This Anyways we could two sounds possibly. A slower quieter one for the one you deactivate yourself, and a much louder one for when something else breaks it similar to the shield shattering noise. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11968	Posted - 2014.01.12 05:08:00 - [47] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/347/394/74a.jpg Manage this situation. Ok. http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner + http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Flux_Grenade With the changes to dampening bonus on scouts, there will be exactly one type of scout who will be able to sit invisible and not show up on a scan. Seriously, do you have any actual reasoning for the cloak being a problem, aside from just not liking the idea? Active scanner told you how many ninjas are out there. Flux grenade has been proven to be very unreliable (hence its unpopularity) in destroying equipment of any sort so decloaking is also less likely. manage the situation. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11968	Posted - 2014.01.12 06:57:00 - [48] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/347/394/74a.jpg Manage this situation. Ok. http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner + http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Flux_Grenade With the changes to dampening bonus on scouts, there will be exactly one type of scout who will be able to sit invisible and not show up on a scan. Seriously, do you have any actual reasoning for the cloak being a problem, aside from just not liking the idea? Active scanner told you how many ninjas are out there. Flux grenade has been proven to be very unreliable (hence its unpopularity) in destroying equipment of any sort so decloaking is also less likely. manage the situation. Still no reasoning. Fine. More hypotheticals instead. http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner + http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Locus_Grenade or http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Mass_Driver or http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Plasma_Cannon or http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Heavy_Machine_Gun or http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Orbital_Bombardment Or how about this as an alternative. http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Heavy_Attack_Vehicles + http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner_Modules There's any number of scenarios that have a good chance of success when using a hard counter like the active scanner. Or passive scanning for that matter. Then there are also soft counters like scanning a room when you enter it or tossing a grenade at an installation to clear it. Seriously, you already know all of this, its no different to handling scouts now, or checking for REs. You and every other vet has had to adjust to similar threats already. Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hit markers and reticule color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying. BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11973	Posted - 2014.01.12 09:08:00 - [49] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: First off all the above solutions you provided are needle in the haystacks firings and waste of good ammo. Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hitmarkers and reticle color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying. BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare The Anti-sub article is an excellent and very apt piece, but it appears to be re-enforcing my point? So...thanks, I guess? Like many forms of warfare, successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms. So the counter for subs is to use sensors (active and passive scanning) to identify them, then explosive devices (AOE weapons) to neutralise. Sounds alot like the situation I've described above. Firing an AOE weapon at the approximate location of an invisible suit is hardly a needle in a haystack, or a waste of ammo. In fact, firing at the approximate location of a suit is pretty much the primary purpose of AOE weapons. But if you need something extra, try aiming your weapon towards where the dot appears on your mini map, and then pull the trigger when it turns red? With that, I've given you a total of 8 hypothetical counters for the one hypothetical situation involving cloaked suits so far. I'm happy to continue for as long as you like but for now, how about answering a question for me. Are you able to explain what about the cloak make it so broken that the CPM is working together to pull off a nerf before it even makes it into game? What is so game changing that this level of engagement is required? Nothing you've mentioned so far explains the amount of effort you and Kain have put into destroying the cloak before its even released. It may be a bad mechanic, but the effort you've expended is so far out of proportion that's it's starting to seem like a troll. So explain it to me. Actually it breaks your point quite a bit but since you're incapable of getting it. Lets play this again then http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ocean.jpg I am a new generation diesel sub, I don't want to be found, Find me. All the old methods the old tech it don't work anymore, feel free to use them. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11976	Posted - 2014.01.12 09:35:00 - [50] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: i think its odd that someone such as IWS with his inside knowledge is afraid of "scouts" being forced to hold cloacks to maximize their suits.... when eventually other light frames that dont use cloaks will be released making it so that you WANT a suit specialised around cloaks I am an Omni-soldier, I don't have a favorite fit and based on my insider knowledge I rather just delete cloaks, but knowing ccp I can't stop that. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11976	Posted - 2014.01.12 09:45:00 - [51] - Quote Grave Oblivion wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: First off all the above solutions you provided are needle in the haystacks firings and waste of good ammo. Passive scanners visuals are somewhat broken as well... There is a common complaint about the IFFs not working all that well and leading to plenty of both friendly fire incidents and botched attacks. This compounding with lack of hitmarkers and reticle color changes on a variety of weapons is making this portion of game play ever increasingly annoying. BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare The Anti-sub article is an excellent and very apt piece, but it appears to be re-enforcing my point? So...thanks, I guess? Like many forms of warfare, successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms. So the counter for subs is to use sensors (active and passive scanning) to identify them, then explosive devices (AOE weapons) to neutralise. Sounds alot like the situation I've described above. Firing an AOE weapon at the approximate location of an invisible suit is hardly a needle in a haystack, or a waste of ammo. In fact, firing at the approximate location of a suit is pretty much the primary purpose of AOE weapons. But if you need something extra, try aiming your weapon towards where the dot appears on your mini map, and then pull the trigger when it turns red? With that, I've given you a total of 8 hypothetical counters for the one hypothetical situation involving cloaked suits so far. I'm happy to continue for as long as you like but for now, how about answering a question for me. Are you able to explain what about the cloak make it so broken that the CPM is working together to pull off a nerf before it even makes it into game? What is so game changing that this level of engagement is required? Nothing you've mentioned so far explains the amount of effort you and Kain have put into destroying the cloak before its even released. It may be a bad mechanic, but the effort you've expended is so far out of proportion that's it's starting to seem like a troll. So explain it to me. Actually it breaks your point quite a bit but since you're incapable of getting it. Lets play this again then http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ocean.jpg I am a new generation diesel sub, I don't want to be found, Find me. All the old methods the old tech it don't work anymore, feel free to use them. The new (active scanner) vds or variable depth sonar will find it I think That does not work against acoustic active camo techniques deployed back in the 80s or just plain lack of knowledge on the scanning ship, what looks like a big rock is really a rock according to the sonar despite its submarine like shape. There are plenty of rocks like this around and even a couple old wrecks. My passive sonar however just picked that up and I know exactly where you are at now. Try again. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11996	Posted - 2014.01.12 19:17:00 - [52] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: OP, do you have a vendetta against cloaks? You seem to be forgetting the shimmer effect. Uncloaking on proximity is extremely silly when you consider that cloaked players are not fully invisible. They are just harder to see. That alone will mean that the effect will be greatly diminished at short ranges. Considering our small FOV, it might not even be all that different from uncloaked players. Shimmer + proximity uncloak is basically a double nerf for a single usage scenario. What are cloaks even supposed to be for, in your opinion? Maybe that's the correct question to ask. From the OP post, cloaks would basically give you protection against snipers and stray HAVs while moving across the map. Except that you'd be unable to sprint, so they wouldn't be useful even for that. You can't stealth-kill, you can't wait at a mission objective until the enemy leaves the area. What DO you use them for? Also, what about sounds? Do cloaked players still make sounds while moving? From what I read, you can actually detect most players without seeing them if you have a headset. Edit: Close-range cloak or long-range cloak? The former would be balanced around cloaking time/cooldown/etc. The latter would be balanced around cloaking conditions, like proximity uncloak, and could work even without any time limit outside of Ambush. Thing is there been plenty of other games that done the shimmer effect, PS2 being the worst of it because you lose effective visual if they get too far away. Which is why they're gawd awfully unbalanced, I cannot count how many times that I had a scout cloak up on me while taking damage and just run away disappearing even at ambush ranged, and scout in that game can maintain cloak until they're out of health. Halo is not that bad considering your radar gets screwed up in the distance (which is about x2 over ps2s) and you start to look out for the 'shimmer.' and their cloaks don't persist that well under speed damage or firing and that most of the weapons you could blindfire with is not punishing because you can rearm over most dead players. Thus one can waste ammo in trying to flush a guy out. Dust 514 had a fake cloak not to long ago, if you got hit with the absolute WORST of the rendering bug you'd know how terrible cloaks can be. People still showing up in the minimap and even the tags over the heads and yet that severely put you as a massive disadvantage as people did not render up to even knife range. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12001	Posted - 2014.01.12 21:48:00 - [53] - Quote mollerz wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Dust 514 had a fake cloak not too long ago, if you got hit with the absolute WORST of the rendering bug you'd know how terrible cloaks can be. People still showing up in the minimap and red reticule still happened and yet that still severely put you as a massive disadvantage as people did not render up to even knife ranges it was that bad. I gotten some of my best knife kills during that time too because likely I was not rendering to my victims. This is not a fake cloak. This is ****** coding and one of a handful of game breaking bugs we've had to endure while it got sorted. It has no place in the cloak discussion, however. Don't cheapen cloaks based on bugs, we already dealt with those bugs enough. Why not, it was a good enough of a preview event and if its as powerful as some of the cloaks I am used there will be cries to just delete the whole thing leaving scouts with a useless bonus. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12001	Posted - 2014.01.12 21:50:00 - [54] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: mollerz wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Dust 514 had a fake cloak not too long ago, if you got hit with the absolute WORST of the rendering bug you'd know how terrible cloaks can be. People still showing up in the minimap and red reticule still happened and yet that still severely put you as a massive disadvantage as people did not render up to even knife ranges it was that bad. I gotten some of my best knife kills during that time too because likely I was not rendering to my victims. This is not a fake cloak. This is ****** coding and one of a handful of game breaking bugs we've had to endure while it got sorted. It has no place in the cloak discussion, however. Don't cheapen cloaks based on bugs, we already dealt with those bugs enough. Why not, it was a good enough of a preview event and if its as powerful as some of the cloaks I am used there will be cries to just delete the whole thing leaving scouts with a useless bonus. Again, that was a bug that came up as a result of CCP addressing spawn killings. That was not exactly preview material. Actually the bug was made to help deal with load balancing and it based on your weapons optimal so people with oh say knives and shotguns where literally running blind, others like myself where running blind when it felt like rearing its fugly head. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12001	Posted - 2014.01.12 22:25:00 - [55] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I'm still of the opinion that there should also be an additional covert ops cloak that can only be fitted on no less than a prototype scout or covert ops specialty scout. This should have perks that the normal cloak doesn't have. Much like the covert ops cloak in Eve. a Lv5 scout or a proto scout suit? If you have the skill and resources you should be able to use any equipment - that is the basics of the game. At it's core, yes. And taking your "if you have enough skill and resources" argument, my idea actually supports your argument. If you have enough skills for the covert ops cloak and the prototype/covert ops scout then you should be able to use this particular equipment. If not, you can always fall back to the normal cloak equipment in the meantime. Here is a link to my suggestion thread posted in the feedback section of the forums: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=131175&find=unread The CPU and PG demands and bonus percentages might needs some adjustments, but overall that's the gist of what I'm hoping to see in the cloak. Yeah I hate that - if you want this type of stuff then it should be the same throughout the games. A proto / prof level weapon should only be able to be placed on proto suits. Complex mods should get fitting bonus for Lv5 suit but not Lv1-3 suit. @IWS - you lost the plot dude - reverse course. I know where I am at still. I see a cargo ship with no crew called the SS cloaking, heading straight towards the pier out of control. I do not have the means of sinking this ship. Now I have a variety of ships to throw in the way to slow it down before it smashes the pier or even try to divert the crash but no matter what happens something is going to get smashed to pieces and people are going to be very upset as to why I wanted to sacrifice one for the other. For all I care I don't give a damn how much damage I cause to the SS cloaking herself as long as the people on the pier are saved, particularly the scouts on the pier. The SS cloaking can get fixed after the crash, the people on the pier cannot be replaced. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12005	Posted - 2014.01.12 22:58:00 - [56] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Yeah but all dust has is HW for heavies. Anyway we will see what comes. @IWS - I have no issue with what you are doing even though I dont like much of your suggestions. My point was dont use bugs etc to try to make a point. You will lose credibility and then people may miss the actual good stuff you would like implemented. My problem is far too many are saying wait and see, I know that is something they may regret asking for trust me as a CPM. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12006	Posted - 2014.01.12 23:19:00 - [57] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Yeah but all dust has is HW for heavies. Anyway we will see what comes. @IWS - I have no issue with what you are doing even though I dont like much of your suggestions. My point was dont use bugs etc to try to make a point. You will lose credibility and then people may miss the actual good stuff you would like implemented. My problem is far too many are saying wait and see, I know that is something they may regret asking for trust me as a CPM. I understand your concerns and that as a member of the CPM you want to help out, but as a member of the CPM you also have the responsibility of taking the needs of your constituents into account. If the majority wish to take the "wait-n-see" approach, then so be it. I think you may need to take a quick tour around what the other CPMs are saying about the election and the next CPM and think about it. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12006	Posted - 2014.01.12 23:28:00 - [58] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Yeah but all dust has is HW for heavies. Anyway we will see what comes. @IWS - I have no issue with what you are doing even though I dont like much of your suggestions. My point was dont use bugs etc to try to make a point. You will lose credibility and then people may miss the actual good stuff you would like implemented. My problem is far too many are saying wait and see, I know that is something they may regret asking for trust me as a CPM. I understand your concerns and that as a member of the CPM you want to help out, but as a member of the CPM you also have the responsibility of taking the needs of your constituents into account. If the majority wish to take the "wait-n-see" approach, then so be it. I think you may need to take a quick tour around what the other CPMs are saying about the election and the next CPM and think about it. This is not about the election right now. We're talking about cloaks. I thought you'd read more into it, I thought wrong. Just if you figure it out keep it to yourself. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12006	Posted - 2014.01.13 01:35:00 - [59] - Quote mollerz wrote: ooh now it's cloak.. and dagger blah blah past bugs.. blah shotgun blast boat horns and clown honks.. blah blah.. secret squirrelly CPM reasons.. blah blah. Ok. This little exercise in prenerfing is a fail.. let me just mention ****** on your behalf, IWS, and finalize it. EDIT: that link is cool. Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12008	Posted - 2014.01.13 03:21:00 - [60] - Quote mollerz wrote: I don't know how you expect us to take your reasoning seriously when you are using scare tactics along the lines of the new unreleased cloak behaving like a game breaking bug. Sorry man. The jig is up, this is nothing more than sucker bait to get your claws in and make cloaks useless. GG but only fools would fall for it, and you're only going to get backed up by those who will lose the most from it's introduction. Your politics are almost good, but way too transparent. Scare Tactics or not; This does go beyond politics, this goes beyond the elections, this goes beyond me trying to do good or bad by the community, but I am doing do things for a reason, I would normally not fight this hard for changes against such opposition. Wait and See is an extraordinary terrible mistake in this case given the possible nature of the next patch. You claim I am transparant, I swear to you I cannot be as CPM I am disallowed this on many factors. You are reading me entirely wrong, you are pre-notioned into a bias, and you're close minded to what is going on around on the entire field of development, play, and politics. I doubt I can stop cloaks from entering the game in the same manner I couldn't stop the contact grenades and I am left with few alternatives. Ultimately I see the new scout bonuses as a pure insult. I see the cloaks as a possible game killer as it will generate excessively far poorer counter play than the active scanner will. Top this on the matters ahead in the future, this immensely exacerbates the issues well above and beyond normal. The truth of my actions will be made clear, I am however anticipating by the time it does it be too late to fix cloaks and I for want do not want to squader my time being idle and reactive. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12009	Posted - 2014.01.13 04:47:00 - [61] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Whether we are on weekly monthly or quarterly updates the game can be updated any downtime for small things and any Tuesday for things that have to be QC by Sony. To say that something will go decades being OP in Dust is pretty funny because going on past instances you get a couple of months and then it is rendered useless unless its name is rifle. Dial back the drama and how about you Kain and Hans present a combined effort that represents the core of what you guys think is best but obviously with some points that reflect what the forum would like to see. Hans wants it gone and used a large variety of synonyms that are equating to bad idea but on an epic scale. Kain's and Nova's anti-combat cloak stance was pretty clear in the petition Jenza if I ever catch her not talking about her boat will probably agree that the cloak shouldn't be a combat tool. Cazderon will likely say something in french again. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12009	Posted - 2014.01.13 04:59:00 - [62] - Quote To be honest I don't know what we will have time for. There are quite a few things that need to have light shed on them and when they do come out cloaks may get drowned out entirely until patch day. I was not kidding when I said 2014 is going to be an interesting year for Dust 514, and that CPM 1's own term would easily surpass 0's plate breaking. Whole reason why majority of the CPM is not seeking re-election. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12010	Posted - 2014.01.13 06:51:00 - [63] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: To be honest I don't know what we will have time for. There are quite a few things that need to have light shed on them and when they do come out cloaks may get drowned out entirely until patch day. I was not kidding when I said 2014 is going to be an interesting year for Dust 514, and that CPM 1's own term would easily surpass 0's plate breaking. Whole reason why majority of the CPM is not seeking re-election. I am fairly certain that the scout community will vocalize on cloaks, and many in that community (if not most) do not want to have to rely on cloaks, nor be forced into a role. So I doubt that discussion on it will be drowned out, though I have no idea how much other big **** will drop at that time, so I could be wrong. CPM does not seem like much fun to me Its not fun that is for certain and yes there is a likely chance that whatever is going to get discussed this year will drown quite a few things out. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

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