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Payload delivery (TTK and weapon balance) [maths inside]

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Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 831	Posted - 2014.01.07 20:42:00 - [1] - Quote The following numbers represent how long it takes each weapon to output 600 HP damage on a level field (no efficacy bonuses) with the exception of the ACR. ACR 1.36363636 seconds (need more info on the vanilla CR in order to calculat - specifically "burst delay interval) as well with the projectile type weapons this number will be further reduced by 5% due to it being the only weapon type with an unbalanced damage efficacy swing (i.e. 95%/110%). This number then works out to-á1.29545454 AR-á1.28342246 seconds RR 1.2892519-á The SR is a bit tricky as it is a simi-auto weapon. Many sources would say that 660 r/m is pushing the limit of human capability, and that while griping a gun handle (equivalent DS3 grip) achievable RoF is around 480. This is a video of a world record being set for revolver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcStqGyXzbY&feature=youtube_gdata_player If you subtract the time it took him to reload, the RoF works out to around 8 trigger pulls a second. This will work out to around 480 r/m. So that is the RoF we will use. SR:-á0.9469697 seconds So as you can see there is a problem. There is one weapon that is far superior to all of the others: the scrambler rifle, by an obscenely large margin. I feel like this can be easily felt in the field. Convolution: the SR needs to have its damage per shot reduced in order to to bring it in line with the other weapons. Also The difference between the payload output of the AR and CR/RR is very-ánegligible.-áIf the AR is supposed to be the king of CQC then I would recommend increasing the AR's RoF to around 800 r/m. At 800 r/m the would bring the AR's payload delivery to-á1.20320856 thus adequately making up for what it looses in range. This is for everyone's consideration, but I hope that CCP will pay particular close attention to this thread. If anyone is interested in knowing the math I used to calculate these numbers just ask (you too CCP) just ask and I will post the equations. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1362	Posted - 2014.01.07 20:49:00 - [2] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: The following numbers represent how long it takes each weapon to output 600 HP damage on a level field (no efficacy bonuses) with the exception of the ACR. ACR 1.36363636 seconds (need more info on the vanilla CR in order to calculat - specifically "burst delay interval) as well with the projectile type weapons this number will be further reduced by 5% due to it being the only weapon type with an unbalanced damage efficacy swing (i.e. 95%/110%). This number then works out to-á1.29545454 AR-á1.28342246 seconds RR 1.2892519-á The SR is a bit tricky as it is a simi-auto weapon. Many sources would say that 660 r/m is pushing the limit of human capability, and that while griping a gun handle (equivalent DS3 grip) achievable RoF is around 480. This is a video of a world record being set for revolver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcStqGyXzbY&feature=youtube_gdata_player If you subtract the time it took him to reload, the RoF works out to around 8 trigger pulls a second. This will work out to around 480 r/m. So that is the RoF we will use. SR:-á0.9469697 seconds So as you can see there is a problem. There is one weapon that is far superior to all of the others: the scrambler rifle, by an obscenely large margin. I feel like this can be easily felt in the field. Convolution: the SR needs to have its damage per shot reduced in order to to bring it in line with the other weapons. Also The difference between the payload output of the AR and CR/RR is very-ánegligible.-áIf the AR is supposed to be the king of CQC then I would recommend increasing the AR's RoF to around 800 r/m. At 800 r/m the would bring the AR's payload delivery to-á1.20320856 thus adequately making up for what it looses in range. This is for everyone's consideration, but I hope that CCP will pay particular close attention to this thread. If anyone is interested in knowing the math I used to calculate these numbers just ask (you too CCP) just ask and I will post the equations. If you want to lower the SCR's damage, you will also need to lower its heat build up so you can have longer sustained fire, because there is only 1.6 seconds of continues fire before it overheats, while the other guns can fire for 4-5 seconds, making missing a few rounds not that much of an issue. If you miss with the SCR, yer screwed... Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
howard sanchez Sanchez Cartage llc 831	Posted - 2014.01.07 20:51:00 - [3] - Quote Are you basing your estimated dps for the scrambler rifle on a real life calculation of 8 rounds/sec? Really? I hope that CCP has actual numbers of in game avg dmg output per weapon type. That way, you can opt to not not recommend sweeping changes based on guesses and very loose estimates. But, that being said, I very much appreciate your attempt at fair evidenced based objectivity vice the standard forum QQ spew
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 7610	Posted - 2014.01.07 20:52:00 - [4] - Quote You can calculate the normal CR through the RPM just fine. Tap it fast enough and it has the same RPM as the ACR. I'd just like to point out that my favourite boundless fit does about 1000 dps. Also, as for the SCR, alpha damage is its thing. This completely ignores so many other factors like overheat. Level 7 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
Aisha Ctarl Ctarl - Ctarl Empire 2721	Posted - 2014.01.07 20:52:00 - [5] - Quote Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? Aisha Ctarl for CPM1
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 7610	Posted - 2014.01.07 20:53:00 - [6] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Level 7 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1384	Posted - 2014.01.07 20:53:00 - [7] - Quote +1 for science, sir. I believe these are reasonable suggestions. Honestly, DUST's devs should talk to the EVE devs more. It took the EVE guys a while to realize a gun can't both have equal/superior DPS and superior range and be balanced. Pass that knowledge on to your coworkers, CCP dudes. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûôGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 300/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 831	Posted - 2014.01.07 21:00:00 - [8] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: The following numbers represent how long it takes each weapon to output 600 HP damage on a level field (no efficacy bonuses) with the exception of the ACR. ACR 1.36363636 seconds (need more info on the vanilla CR in order to calculat - specifically "burst delay interval) as well with the projectile type weapons this number will be further reduced by 5% due to it being the only weapon type with an unbalanced damage efficacy swing (i.e. 95%/110%). This number then works out to-á1.29545454 AR-á1.28342246 seconds RR 1.2892519-á The SR is a bit tricky as it is a simi-auto weapon. Many sources would say that 660 r/m is pushing the limit of human capability, and that while griping a gun handle (equivalent DS3 grip) achievable RoF is around 480. This is a video of a world record being set for revolver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcStqGyXzbY&feature=youtube_gdata_player If you subtract the time it took him to reload, the RoF works out to around 8 trigger pulls a second. This will work out to around 480 r/m. So that is the RoF we will use. SR:-á0.9469697 seconds So as you can see there is a problem. There is one weapon that is far superior to all of the others: the scrambler rifle, by an obscenely large margin. I feel like this can be easily felt in the field. Convolution: the SR needs to have its damage per shot reduced in order to to bring it in line with the other weapons. Also The difference between the payload output of the AR and CR/RR is very-ánegligible.-áIf the AR is supposed to be the king of CQC then I would recommend increasing the AR's RoF to around 800 r/m. At 800 r/m the would bring the AR's payload delivery to-á1.20320856 thus adequately making up for what it looses in range. This is for everyone's consideration, but I hope that CCP will pay particular close attention to this thread. If anyone is interested in knowing the math I used to calculate these numbers just ask (you too CCP) just ask and I will post the equations. If you want to lower the SCR's damage, you will also need to lower its heat build up so you can have longer sustained fire, because there is only 1.6 seconds of continues fire before it overheats, while the other guns can fire for 4-5 seconds, making missing a few rounds not that much of an issue. If you miss with the SCR, yer screwed...so those who you come across make it a habbit of not missing a single round, hence you dead...scrubs with the SCR, i take those on 3 at the same time with a RR in CQC. Negative standard over heat at 480 r/m should be 2 seconds exactly of continues fire at 16 rounds before overheat. This has been tested (16 rounds beFor overheat). It is considerably longer with Amarr assault. Though I would agree with you any change to the weapon needs to be done in a balanced way, which would include a proportionate increase to overheat if the numbers on that don't turn out to be out of balance with the other weapons as well. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 831	Posted - 2014.01.07 21:03:00 - [9] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? Yes I did; in fact, I stated as much in the OP. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 831	Posted - 2014.01.07 21:07:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 832	Posted - 2014.01.07 21:22:00 - [11] - Quote Did I mention that I am also proficiency 4 in SR? I guess I didn't did I. But on my Son-Of A-Gun Character (my favorite alt or second main, as I like to think of him) I am an Amarr specialist, and my main is a Gal specialist. I also have two other alts and one is a Cal specialist and the other is a Minmatar specialist. I assure you, this analysis is very much unbiased. I was simply running the numbers and noticed the imbalances listed in the OP. that is all. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Righteous Rage BIG BAD W0LVES 13	Posted - 2014.01.07 21:23:00 - [12] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. nobody ever does. "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 836	Posted - 2014.01.08 09:30:00 - [13] - Quote Bump for posterity's sake. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Aero Yassavi Yassavi House 4443	Posted - 2014.01.08 09:36:00 - [14] - Quote Don't let your math overcome logic. Numbers can only tell you so much. So the scrambler rifle can dish out initial damage faster than the other rifles? But guess what? It can't sustain it's damage like the other rifles can. The scrambler rifle is balanced. If anything, it could use a little less hip fire accuracy, but that's it. It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's Super Amarr!
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 836	Posted - 2014.01.08 09:46:00 - [15] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Don't let your math overcome logic. Numbers can only tell you so much. So the scrambler rifle can dish out initial damage faster than the other rifles? But guess what? It can't sustain it's damage like the other rifles can. The scrambler rifle is balanced. If anything, it could use a little less hip fire accuracy, but that's it. I did use logic: in 1v1 combat the scrambler rifle will win everytime, unless you're some kind of a morron. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Aero Yassavi Yassavi House 4446	Posted - 2014.01.08 09:51:00 - [16] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Don't let your math overcome logic. Numbers can only tell you so much. So the scrambler rifle can dish out initial damage faster than the other rifles? But guess what? It can't sustain it's damage like the other rifles can. The scrambler rifle is balanced. If anything, it could use a little less hip fire accuracy, but that's it. I did use logic: in 1v1 combat the scrambler rifle will win everytime, unless you're some kind of a morron. Well either I'm a moron (only one "r"), or the Kaalakiota Rail Rifle, Boundless Combat Rifle, and Duvolle Assault Rifle are better than you give them credit for. It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's Super Amarr!
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 837	Posted - 2014.01.08 09:56:00 - [17] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Don't let your math overcome logic. Numbers can only tell you so much. So the scrambler rifle can dish out initial damage faster than the other rifles? But guess what? It can't sustain it's damage like the other rifles can. The scrambler rifle is balanced. If anything, it could use a little less hip fire accuracy, but that's it. I did use logic: in 1v1 combat the scrambler rifle will win everytime, unless you're some kind of a morron. Well either I'm a moron (only one "r"), or the Kaalakiota Rail Rifle, Boundless Combat Rifle, and Duvolle Assault Rifle are better than you give them credit for. "only one "r"" Seriously, a clarical error, that is your retort? Lol. I'm going with moron. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Aero Yassavi Yassavi House 4447	Posted - 2014.01.08 10:03:00 - [18] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Don't let your math overcome logic. Numbers can only tell you so much. So the scrambler rifle can dish out initial damage faster than the other rifles? But guess what? It can't sustain it's damage like the other rifles can. The scrambler rifle is balanced. If anything, it could use a little less hip fire accuracy, but that's it. I did use logic: in 1v1 combat the scrambler rifle will win everytime, unless you're some kind of a morron. Well either I'm a moron (only one "r"), or the Kaalakiota Rail Rifle, Boundless Combat Rifle, and Duvolle Assault Rifle are better than you give them credit for. "only one "r"" Seriously, a clarical error, that's your retort? Lol. I'm going with moron. If you really want to go there, when quoting inside a quote, you only use one tick. So it should of been, "only one 'r'" It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's Super Amarr!
Kingseeker Kobra Expert Intervention Caldari State 16	Posted - 2014.01.08 10:04:00 - [19] - Quote Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. (GÇó_GÇó) ( GÇó_GÇó)>GîÉGûá-Gûá (GîÉGûá_Gûá) DEAL WITH IT
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 7645	Posted - 2014.01.08 10:07:00 - [20] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Don't let your math overcome logic. Numbers can only tell you so much. So the scrambler rifle can dish out initial damage faster than the other rifles? But guess what? It can't sustain it's damage like the other rifles can. The scrambler rifle is balanced. If anything, it could use a little less hip fire accuracy, but that's it. I did use logic: in 1v1 combat the scrambler rifle will win everytime, unless you're some kind of a morron. Well either I'm a moron (only one "r"), or the Kaalakiota Rail Rifle, Boundless Combat Rifle, and Duvolle Assault Rifle are better than you give them credit for. "only one "r"" Seriously, a clarical error, that is your retort? Lol. I'm going with moron. Yes, he's clearly a moron. You know, because he took into account other factors than 'wah it does lots of dps'. The scrambler rifle is limited by its overheat. Other weapons are not. The SCR trades versatility for damage. Now. The CR can max out its fire rate if you tap even somewhat decently well. Go run some calculations on that. You are also disregarding that the SCR has the highest fitting requirements of the rifles. Level 7 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 838	Posted - 2014.01.08 10:15:00 - [21] - Quote Kingseeker Kobra wrote: Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. The proto ScR is capable of outputting 1,742.3094 damage before overheat (with pro 5 and two damage mods; a common enough thing). So I think that that qualifies it to be classed a weapon capable of taking on multiple targets simultaneously. And with it having the lowest TTK out of all the rifles by an extreme margin, I would say that my classing it as imbalanced/OP is acurate. Shakes his head who do you guys think you are trying to fool here? I use th damned thing. I am prof 4 with it. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Ghermard-ol Dizeriois Maphia Clan Corporation 59	Posted - 2014.01.08 10:20:00 - [22] - Quote Kingseeker Kobra wrote: Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. A ak.0 Logi dealt me 1400 dmg points in < 2 secs, without overheating with her ScR, and my MH-82 was dealing little to no damage to my enemy. If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1366	Posted - 2014.01.08 10:50:00 - [23] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Kingseeker Kobra wrote: Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. The proto ScR is capable of outputting 1,742.3094 damage before overheat (with pro 5 and two damage mods; a common enough thing). So I think that that qualifies it to be classed a weapon capable of taking on multiple targets simultaneously. And with it having the lowest TTK out of all the rifles by an extreme margin, I would say that my classing it as imbalanced/OP is acurate. Shakes his head who do you guys think you are trying to fool here? I use th damned thing. I am prof 4 with it. Still, the SCR is an Alpha weapon, you deal everything at the start and have no sustained fireate, all the other guns have lower alpha damage but put out more then double sustained fire. I can kill multiple people with the SCR, but with my Rail Rifle its allot easier (and i am talking CQC as thats the the range i am always in 90% of the time), with the CR people die extremely fast (burst or Assault) and i see no change in how many people i kill at the end of the game, still high 30/40 kills a game but my derp deaths have gone down back to 1-3 vs 4-5 with the SCR. There is little to no margin of error on the SCR, with the CR it fires so many rounds and when aimed at the face many will land there, Rail Rifle is just making sure you don't stop firing, witch is the opposite of the SCR where you want to preserve as much rounds as possible on target. I love the SCR but the RR is my new CQC goto weapon, especially if they push the new changes. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 838	Posted - 2014.01.08 10:54:00 - [24] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Kingseeker Kobra wrote: Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. The proto ScR is capable of outputting 1,742.3094 damage before overheat (with pro 5 and two damage mods; a common enough thing). So I think that that qualifies it to be classed a weapon capable of taking on multiple targets simultaneously. And with it having the lowest TTK out of all the rifles by an extreme margin, I would say that my classing it as imbalanced/OP is acurate. Shakes his head who do you guys think you are trying to fool here? I use th damned thing. I am prof 4 with it. Still, the SCR is an Alpha weapon, you deal everything at the start and have no sustained fireate, all the other guns have lower alpha damage but put out more then double sustained fire. I can kill multiple people with the SCR, but with my Rail Rifle its allot easier (and i am talking CQC as thats the the range i am always in 90% of the time), with the CR people die extremely fast (burst or Assault) and i see no change in how many people i kill at the end of the game, still high 30/40 kills a game but my derp deaths have gone down back to 1-3 vs 4-5 with the SCR. There is little to no margin of error on the SCR, with the CR it fires so many rounds and when aimed at the face many will land there, Rail Rifle is just making sure you don't stop firing, witch is the opposite of the SCR where you want to preserve as much rounds as possible on target. I love the SCR but the RR is my new CQC goto weapon, especially if they push the new changes. You're missing the entire point here. In 1v1 combat their is no concivable way to compete with this weapon. How in the hell is that balance in anyway at all? {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1366	Posted - 2014.01.08 11:10:00 - [25] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Kingseeker Kobra wrote: Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. The proto ScR is capable of outputting 1,742.3094 damage before overheat (with pro 5 and two damage mods; a common enough thing). So I think that that qualifies it to be classed a weapon capable of taking on multiple targets simultaneously. And with it having the lowest TTK out of all the rifles by an extreme margin, I would say that my classing it as imbalanced/OP is acurate. Shakes his head who do you guys think you are trying to fool here? I use th damned thing. I am prof 4 with it. Still, the SCR is an Alpha weapon, you deal everything at the start and have no sustained fireate, all the other guns have lower alpha damage but put out more then double sustained fire. I can kill multiple people with the SCR, but with my Rail Rifle its allot easier (and i am talking CQC as thats the the range i am always in 90% of the time), with the CR people die extremely fast (burst or Assault) and i see no change in how many people i kill at the end of the game, still high 30/40 kills a game but my derp deaths have gone down back to 1-3 vs 4-5 with the SCR. There is little to no margin of error on the SCR, with the CR it fires so many rounds and when aimed at the face many will land there, Rail Rifle is just making sure you don't stop firing, witch is the opposite of the SCR where you want to preserve as much rounds as possible on target. I love the SCR but the RR is my new CQC goto weapon, especially if they push the new changes. You're missing the entire point here. In 1v1 combat their is no concivable way to compete with this weapon. How in the hell is that balance in anyway at all? So its fine that everything else is being balanced around this "TeamPlay" thing but the SCR needs to be balanced around solo 1 vs 1 ? Every time someone says: OMG i can't kill x solo, people come out of the woodword to rpe the guy a new hole that says TeamWork, but concering the SCR its "i can't solo a SCR user". The last SCR guy that went up against me last week, who i killed 9 times that game in 1 vs 1 with my RR, send me some nice tears in the mail, youll see when the SCR users pick up another gun, that you won't live allot longer. Most people i shoot with the RR that see me, as in both walk around the corner and spot one another at 5 meters away, do not posses the ability to even start to shoot at me before they die, they would be the same dead if i had an SCR, just their perceived delayed dying instead og the instagib is all that is diffrent. But on both occasions they cannot reach for their gun. If the SCR is that OP, we would have everyone using it, like when the Tac was OP, its way passed Uprising and only a few use it to this date, ive moved on to a gun that cannot be exploited with a Rapid Fire controller, so people don't think i am cheating (KBM player though) because all my last tearmails from people are about me being a turbo fire scrub with the SCR, witch i am oviously am not. But some have already apologised to me when they got the same rpe rate from my Rail Rifle. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 255	Posted - 2014.01.08 11:18:00 - [26] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: The following numbers represent how long it takes each weapon to output 600 HP damage on a level field (no efficacy bonuses) with the exception of the ACR. ACR 1.36363636 seconds (need more info on the vanilla CR in order to calculate - specifically "burst delay interval) as well with the projectile type weapons this number will be further reduced by 5% due to it being the only weapon type with an unbalanced damage efficacy swing (i.e. 95%/110%). This number then works out to-á1.29545454 seconds. AR-á1.28342246 seconds. RR 1.2892519-áseconds. The SR is a bit tricky as it is a simi-auto weapon. Many sources would say that 660 r/m is pushing the limit of human capability, and that while griping a gun handle (equivalent DS3 grip) achievable RoF is around 480. This is a video of a world record being set for revolver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcStqGyXzbY&feature=youtube_gdata_player If you subtract the time it took him to reload, the RoF works out to around 8 trigger pulls a second (his world record is actually higher than 8 by several desimal points). This will work out to around 480 r/m. So that is the RoF we will use. SR:-á0.9469697 seconds. So as you can see there is a problem. There is one weapon that is far superior to all of the others: the scrambler rifle, by an obscenely large margin. I feel like this can be easily felt in the field. Conclusion: the SR needs to have its damage per shot reduced in order to bring it in line with the other weapons. Also The difference between the payload output of the AR and CR/RR is very-ánegligible.-áIf the AR is supposed to be the king of CQC then I would recommend increasing the AR's RoF to around 800 r/m. At 800 r/m this would bring the AR's payload delivery to-á1.20320856 thus adequately making up for what it looses in range. This is for everyone's consideration, but I hope that CCP will pay particular close attention to this thread. If anyone is interested in knowing the math I used to calculate these numbers just ask (you too CCP) just ask and I will post the equations. {edit>>> also, I would recomend that the max possible RoF for the SR be reduced to around 510 r/m, in order to discourage the use of mod controllers. The RoF should still be a little high to reward those capable of achieving such an output. Before using numbers learn to use them thanks ! 8 shot/s ? Are you damn crazy ? Without modded controller it's IMPOSSIBLE. And even if it was possible then it will overheat in less than 2sec and explode the weapon. Have you take into account than overheat means death of the user ? And than it's the only rifles that have penality ? Have you take into account than the recoil per shot is HUGE ? Than 20% less damage to armor means 20% less damage to almost EVERYBODY ? You can't just use Alpha damage to compair weapon. You didn't take into account the range of each weapons. To be clear it'sl ike i was saying RANDOOOOOM NUMBEEEEEEEERS
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 838	Posted - 2014.01.08 11:18:00 - [27] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Kingseeker Kobra wrote: Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. The proto ScR is capable of outputting 1,742.3094 damage before overheat (with pro 5 and two damage mods; a common enough thing). So I think that that qualifies it to be classed a weapon capable of taking on multiple targets simultaneously. And with it having the lowest TTK out of all the rifles by an extreme margin, I would say that my classing it as imbalanced/OP is acurate. Shakes his head who do you guys think you are trying to fool here? I use th damned thing. I am prof 4 with it. Still, the SCR is an Alpha weapon, you deal everything at the start and have no sustained fireate, all the other guns have lower alpha damage but put out more then double sustained fire. I can kill multiple people with the SCR, but with my Rail Rifle its allot easier (and i am talking CQC as thats the the range i am always in 90% of the time), with the CR people die extremely fast (burst or Assault) and i see no change in how many people i kill at the end of the game, still high 30/40 kills a game but my derp deaths have gone down back to 1-3 vs 4-5 with the SCR. There is little to no margin of error on the SCR, with the CR it fires so many rounds and when aimed at the face many will land there, Rail Rifle is just making sure you don't stop firing, witch is the opposite of the SCR where you want to preserve as much rounds as possible on target. I love the SCR but the RR is my new CQC goto weapon, especially if they push the new changes. You're missing the entire point here. In 1v1 combat their is no concivable way to compete with this weapon. How in the hell is that balance in anyway at all? So its fine that everything else is being balanced around this "TeamPlay" thing but the SCR needs to be balanced around solo 1 vs 1 ? Every time someone says: OMG i can't kill x solo, people come out of the woodword to rpe the guy a new hole that says TeamWork, but concering the SCR its "i can't solo a SCR user". The last SCR guy that went up against me last week, who i killed 9 times that game in 1 vs 1 with my RR, send me some nice tears in the mail, youll see when the SCR users pick up another gun, that you won't live allot longer. Most people i shoot with the RR that see me, as in both walk around the corner and spot one another at 5 meters away, do not posses the ability to even start to shoot at me before they die, they would be the same dead if i had an SCR, just their perceived delayed dying instead og the instagib is all that is diffrent. But on both occasions they cannot reach for their gun. If the SCR is that OP, we would have everyone using it, like when the Tac was OP, its way passed Uprising and only a few use it to this date, ive moved on to a gun that cannot be exploited with a Rapid Fire controller, so people don't think i am cheating (KBM player though) because all my last tearmails from people are about me being a turbo fire scrub with the SCR, witch i am oviously am not. But some have already apologised to me when they got the same rpe rate from my Rail Rifle. 1v1 Rei Shepard RR Vs Rei Shepard ScR, how wins? Come on man use your head. The numbers don't lie. "So its fine that everything else is being balanced around this "TeamPlay" thing but the SCR needs to be balanced around solo 1 vs 1 ?" What does this even mean {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 838	Posted - 2014.01.08 11:24:00 - [28] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: The following numbers represent how long it takes each weapon to output 600 HP damage on a level field (no efficacy bonuses) with the exception of the ACR. ACR 1.36363636 seconds (need more info on the vanilla CR in order to calculate - specifically "burst delay interval) as well with the projectile type weapons this number will be further reduced by 5% due to it being the only weapon type with an unbalanced damage efficacy swing (i.e. 95%/110%). This number then works out to-á1.29545454 seconds. AR-á1.28342246 seconds. RR 1.2892519-áseconds. The SR is a bit tricky as it is a simi-auto weapon. Many sources would say that 660 r/m is pushing the limit of human capability, and that while griping a gun handle (equivalent DS3 grip) achievable RoF is around 480. This is a video of a world record being set for revolver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcStqGyXzbY&feature=youtube_gdata_player If you subtract the time it took him to reload, the RoF works out to around 8 trigger pulls a second (his world record is actually higher than 8 by several desimal points). This will work out to around 480 r/m. So that is the RoF we will use. SR:-á0.9469697 seconds. So as you can see there is a problem. There is one weapon that is far superior to all of the others: the scrambler rifle, by an obscenely large margin. I feel like this can be easily felt in the field. Conclusion: the SR needs to have its damage per shot reduced in order to bring it in line with the other weapons. Also The difference between the payload output of the AR and CR/RR is very-ánegligible.-áIf the AR is supposed to be the king of CQC then I would recommend increasing the AR's RoF to around 800 r/m. At 800 r/m this would bring the AR's payload delivery to-á1.20320856 thus adequately making up for what it looses in range. This is for everyone's consideration, but I hope that CCP will pay particular close attention to this thread. If anyone is interested in knowing the math I used to calculate these numbers just ask (you too CCP) just ask and I will post the equations. {edit>>> also, I would recomend that the max possible RoF for the SR be reduced to around 510 r/m, in order to discourage the use of mod controllers. The RoF should still be a little high to reward those capable of achieving such an output. Before using numbers learn to use them thanks ! 8 shot/s ? Are you damn crazy ? Without modded controller it's IMPOSSIBLE. And even if it was possible then it will overheat in less than 2sec and explode the weapon. Have you take into account than overheat means death of the user ? And than it's the only rifles that have penality ? Have you take into account than the recoil per shot is HUGE ? Than 20% less damage to armor means 20% less damage to almost EVERYBODY ? You can't just use Alpha damage to compair weapon. You didn't take into account the range of each weapons. To be clear it'sl ike i was saying RANDOOOOOM NUMBEEEEEEEERS Dude, GTFO of here with this stupid ****. Math was my major in college bro. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1366	Posted - 2014.01.08 12:15:00 - [29] - Quote Quote: 1v1 Rei Shepard RR Vs Rei Shepard ScR, how wins? Come on man use your head. The numbers don't lie. "So its fine that everything else is being balanced around this "TeamPlay" thing but the SCR needs to be balanced around solo 1 vs 1 ?" What does this even mean? Ok lets do the Rei vs Rei thing... So i did the math with both no mods and 3x damage mods against my typical suit setups No mods with a suit 443 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 1.375 seconds, with needing 11 shots to kill myself, i got 5 more shots left before overheat and i die the RR kills myself in 1.5 seconds, with needing 13 shots to kill myself, i got 29 shots left in the clip with mods and a suit 225 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 0.875 seconds, i got 9 shots more so i can kill myself 1.28 times again right after the RR kills myself in 1 second, i got 34 rounds left so i can kill myself 4.25 additional times This includes the spool time of 0.2 seconds, so basically when i start firing at myself there is a 0.125 second gap where the SCR outperforms the RR in Close Quarter Combat when using Damage Mods but its sustained rate is 3 times less then the Rail Rifle. 0.12 Seconds is very far below Human Average reaction speeds, only if i face myself, ill be able to kill myself faster with the SCR, but if i screw up with the SCR, i could have killed myself 5 times over with the RR before i come out of overheat on the SCR. 0.125 seconds advantage over the RR's no overheat is no advantage and explains allot why i am dying less with the RR in CQC. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Lorhak Gannarsein 1146	Posted - 2014.01.08 12:25:00 - [30] - Quote ScR is unforgiving in a way that none of the other rifles are. It also forces you to compromise your tank simply to USE the weapon, thanks to its exorbitant fitting costs. ScR is immensely powerful 1v1, true, but its utility drops dramatically the larger the combat. It is a skill-based weapon to a degree that cannot be said about any other rifles, and rewards that skill with its being the most powerful weapon for 1v1 engagements. Miss the charged shot = die. Even Amarr Assault will have issues. PRO tanker and proud. Number of PRO-turret HAVs killed w/ my permahardened MLT Blaster Gunny - 2 (so far xD)

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 839	Posted - 2014.01.08 12:44:00 - [31] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Quote: 1v1 Rei Shepard RR Vs Rei Shepard ScR, how wins? Come on man use your head. The numbers don't lie. "So its fine that everything else is being balanced around this "TeamPlay" thing but the SCR needs to be balanced around solo 1 vs 1 ?" What does this even mean? Ok lets do the Rei vs Rei thing... So i did the math with both no mods and 3x damage mods against my typical suit setups No mods with a suit 443 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 1.375 seconds, with needing 11 shots to kill myself, i got 5 more shots left before overheat and i die the RR kills myself in 1.5 seconds, with needing 13 shots to kill myself, i got 29 shots left in the clip with mods and a suit 225 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 0.875 seconds, i got 9 shots more so i can kill myself 1.28 times again right after the RR kills myself in 1 second, i got 34 rounds left so i can kill myself 4.25 additional times This includes the spool time of 0.2 seconds, so basically when i start firing at myself there is a 0.125 second gap where the SCR outperforms the RR in Close Quarter Combat when using Damage Mods but its sustained rate is 3 times less then the Rail Rifle. 0.12 Seconds is very far below Human Average reaction speeds, only if i face myself, ill be able to kill myself faster with the SCR, but if i screw up with the SCR, i could have killed myself 5 times over with the RR before i come out of overheat on the SCR. 0.125 seconds advantage over the RR's no overheat is no advantage and explains allot why i am dying less with the RR in CQC. I think you need to check your math. I've already posted the acurate numbers (and that is without including spool time and your numbers are way off. Here are the actual numbers: Rei Shepard wrote: No mods with a suit 443 shields / 522 armor (These numbers are calculated with prof 4, since you did not specify what your prof was, ad spool time) RR: 2.10477242 seconds ScR: 1.4397096 seconds These numbers are acurate. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 839	Posted - 2014.01.08 12:56:00 - [32] - Quote {edit^^^ [clarical error] wrote "ad spool time" should be "and spool time". {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1366	Posted - 2014.01.08 12:59:00 - [33] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Quote: 1v1 Rei Shepard RR Vs Rei Shepard ScR, how wins? Come on man use your head. The numbers don't lie. "So its fine that everything else is being balanced around this "TeamPlay" thing but the SCR needs to be balanced around solo 1 vs 1 ?" What does this even mean? Ok lets do the Rei vs Rei thing... So i did the math with both no mods and 3x damage mods against my typical suit setups No mods with a suit 443 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 1.375 seconds, with needing 11 shots to kill myself, i got 5 more shots left before overheat and i die the RR kills myself in 1.5 seconds, with needing 13 shots to kill myself, i got 29 shots left in the clip with mods and a suit 225 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 0.875 seconds, i got 9 shots more so i can kill myself 1.28 times again right after the RR kills myself in 1 second, i got 34 rounds left so i can kill myself 4.25 additional times This includes the spool time of 0.2 seconds, so basically when i start firing at myself there is a 0.125 second gap where the SCR outperforms the RR in Close Quarter Combat when using Damage Mods but its sustained rate is 3 times less then the Rail Rifle. 0.12 Seconds is very far below Human Average reaction speeds, only if i face myself, ill be able to kill myself faster with the SCR, but if i screw up with the SCR, i could have killed myself 5 times over with the RR before i come out of overheat on the SCR. 0.125 seconds advantage over the RR's no overheat is no advantage and explains allot why i am dying less with the RR in CQC. I think you need to check your math. I've already posted the acurate numbers (and that is without including spool time and your numbers are way off. Here are the actual numbers: Rei Shepard wrote: No mods with a suit 443 shields / 522 armor (These numbers are calculated with prof 4, since you did not specify what your prof was, ad spool time) RR: 2.10477242 seconds ScR: 1.4397096 seconds These numbers are acurate. Your math was off since the moment you didnt take into consideration of hitting Shields and Armor, my stats take into account first depleting my own shields and then my armor, seeing i fight myself, its only logical i fight my own suit setup. Your math is never used on the battlefield, so why use it, or base of from it ? What the SCR does to shields then swaps to armor is all of a sudden a huge spike in damage dropoff where the RR is first slower against shields but speeds up and almost overtakes the SCR against armor. Seeing Most people need to Armor Tank to fit 3 damage mods or at least have more armor then shields, the RR would come out ahead if firing at a Gallente Logi by a large margin. Maybe you should do your own math all over again but using the weapons efficiencies against actual suits that run such guns. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 7649	Posted - 2014.01.08 13:15:00 - [34] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Dude, GTFO of here with this stupid ****. Math was my major in college bro. I would hope that if you had studied maths to such an extent you would realise how pointless going to 8 decimal places is. Level 7 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 839	Posted - 2014.01.08 13:16:00 - [35] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Quote: 1v1 Rei Shepard RR Vs Rei Shepard ScR, how wins? Come on man use your head. The numbers don't lie. "So its fine that everything else is being balanced around this "TeamPlay" thing but the SCR needs to be balanced around solo 1 vs 1 ?" What does this even mean? Ok lets do the Rei vs Rei thing... So i did the math with both no mods and 3x damage mods against my typical suit setups No mods with a suit 443 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 1.375 seconds, with needing 11 shots to kill myself, i got 5 more shots left before overheat and i die the RR kills myself in 1.5 seconds, with needing 13 shots to kill myself, i got 29 shots left in the clip with mods and a suit 225 shields / 522 armor the SCR kills myself in 0.875 seconds, i got 9 shots more so i can kill myself 1.28 times again right after the RR kills myself in 1 second, i got 34 rounds left so i can kill myself 4.25 additional times This includes the spool time of 0.2 seconds, so basically when i start firing at myself there is a 0.125 second gap where the SCR outperforms the RR in Close Quarter Combat when using Damage Mods but its sustained rate is 3 times less then the Rail Rifle. 0.12 Seconds is very far below Human Average reaction speeds, only if i face myself, ill be able to kill myself faster with the SCR, but if i screw up with the SCR, i could have killed myself 5 times over with the RR before i come out of overheat on the SCR. 0.125 seconds advantage over the RR's no overheat is no advantage and explains allot why i am dying less with the RR in CQC. I think you need to check your math. I've already posted the acurate numbers (and that is without including spool time and your numbers are way off. Here are the actual numbers: Rei Shepard wrote: No mods with a suit 443 shields / 522 armor (These numbers are calculated with prof 4, since you did not specify what your prof was, ad spool time) RR: 2.10477242 seconds ScR: 1.4397096 seconds These numbers are acurate. Your math was off since the moment you didnt take into consideration of hitting Shields and Armor, my stats take into account first depleting my own shields and then my armor, seeing i fight myself, its only logical i fight my own suit setup. Your math is never used on the battlefield, so why use it, or base of from it ? What the SCR does to shields then swaps to armor is all of a sudden a huge spike in damage dropoff where the RR is first slower against shields but speeds up and almost overtakes the SCR against armor. Seeing Most people need to Armor Tank to fit 3 damage mods or at least have more armor then shields, the RR would come out ahead if firing at a Gallente Logi by a large margin. Maybe you should do your own math all over again but using the weapons efficiencies against actual suits that run such guns. My math was calculated considering both weapon's efficacies toward shield/armor: ScR = 120%/80% and RR = 110%/90%. Now I can post the equations and actually PROVE you wrong. But if that is really necessary then it will have to wait until I get out of the shower plus the time it takes my to formulat the equations into a linear format. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 839	Posted - 2014.01.08 13:19:00 - [36] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Dude, GTFO of here with this stupid ****. Math was my major in college bro. I would hope that if you had studied maths to such an extent you would realise how pointless going to 8 decimal places is. Copy and past from the calculator. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1366	Posted - 2014.01.08 13:19:00 - [37] - Quote Quote: My math was calculated considering both weapon's efficacies toward shield/armor: ScR = 120%/80% and RR = 110%/90%. Now I can post the equations and actually PROVE you wrong. But if that is really necessary then it will have to wait until I get out of the shower plus the time it takes my to formulat the equations into a linear format. Because this statement does not contradict what is posted on the first post ? Besides you have your RR stats the way around. it deals 90% to shields and 110% vs armor. Quote: The following numbers represent how long it takes each weapon to output 600 HP damage on a level field (no efficacy bonuses) with the exception of the ACR. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 839	Posted - 2014.01.08 13:46:00 - [38] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Because this statement does not contradict what is posted on the first post ? Besides you have your RR stats the way around. it deals 90% to shields and 110% vs armor. Oops my bad, clarical error. Is was not calculated that way. My numbers are still accurate. Fixing the mistake now. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Izlare Lenix FREE AGENTS LP 89	Posted - 2014.01.08 13:54:00 - [39] - Quote You tell him Rei. I think the biggest point OP is missing is when you can only fire 16 shoots before overheating the ScR, every damn shoot must hit your target. Even missing 2 shoots can be 200+ damage not applied to your target. While automatic weapons have a lot more margin for error when baddies are praying and spraying with them. The ScRs high alpha damage does reward players with good aim. But the heat buildup prevents prolonged engagements and punishes noobs that don't know how to handle the ScR. Also there is always going to be one weapon that is king at something. The mechanics of the ScR allow it to be very, very good at 1 v 1, ok at 1 v 2, and your probably a dead man at 1 v 3. Especially with all the armor suits running around. If I know I will engage in a lot of cqc, I prefer the RS90 over my CRW as it doesn't overheat and kills almost as fast.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 840	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:02:00 - [40] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Because this statement does not contradict what is posted on the first post ? What do you mean by this? Did you mean "does contradict" instead of "does not contradict". Not that the statement in question actually contradicts the math used in the OP. In the OP, that weapon efficacy was not being factored, except in the case of the ACR, was stated. The reason why it was not factored is because, on average it is a nonfactor. The number of people armor tanking and thoses that are shield tanking sould be roughly equivalent. And brick tanking, like the fit you pasted is, is a non factor as well, since the difference in the amount of armor vs shield is roughly equivalent. As I've said my math is accurate and I can prove this to you if you insist. Just say the word. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."

Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1368	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:10:00 - [41] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Because this statement does not contradict what is posted on the first post ? What do you mean by this? Did you mean "does contradict" instead of "does not contradict". Not that the statement in question actually contradicts the math used in the OP. in the OP, that weapon efficacy was not being factored, except in the case of the ACR, was stated. The reason why it was not factored is because, on average it is a nonfactor. The number of people armor tanking and ships tanking sould be roughly equivalent. And brick tanking, like the fit you pasted is, is a non factor as well, since the difference in the amount of armor vs shield is roughly equivalent. As I've said my math is accurate and I can prove this to you if you insist. Just say the word. I looks like i am insisting, because you do not take into cosideration fits that are 225/522 or the way around, i posted 2 fits a 443/522 and a 225/522, the latter you didnt even go into. If all you consider is everyone running around with even Shields/Armor, then hoo boy ... Besides, if someone would Actually take 1.4-1.5 seconds to kill me, thats hardly an Alpha-Strike kill, in 1.5 seconds, if you cannot counter perform any action during that time, you might consider a game with flowers and unicorns to be better for you. 0.25 Seconds average reaction time, 0.4 seconds Average aim time, where is that guys counter attack he has 0.85 seconds left.. So i guess i insist... Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Izlare Lenix FREE AGENTS LP 91	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:18:00 - [42] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Because this statement does not contradict what is posted on the first post ? What do you mean by this? Did you mean "does contradict" instead of "does not contradict". Not that the statement in question actually contradicts the math used in the OP. In the OP, that weapon efficacy was not being factored, except in the case of the ACR, was stated. The reason why it was not factored is because, on average it is a nonfactor. The number of people armor tanking and ships tanking sould be roughly equivalent. And brick tanking, like the fit you pasted is, is a non factor as well, since the difference in the amount of armor vs shield is roughly equivalent. As I've said my math is accurate and I can prove this to you if you insist. Just say the word. Brick tanking is a none factor? You just proved you don't know what the hell you are talking about. All heavies are brick tanked. Almost all Gal, and Amarr med frames are brick tanked. Most minny med frames are brick tanked and the few that aren't still have more armor then shields. Caldari med frames are normally closer in balance unless they have stacked damage mods, thus giving them more armor than shields. Even the Gal proto Scott can and often does have 500-600 armor. Get your facts straight. The reduced damage a ScR does against armor suits effects the guns performance. This is one reason I often switch to my smg during a cqc fight as I get the armor bonus and I won't overheat and die.
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1368	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:21:00 - [43] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: You tell him Rei. I think the biggest point OP is missing is when you can only fire 16 shoots before overheating the ScR, every damn shoot must hit your target. Even missing 2 shoots can be 200+ damage not applied to your target. While automatic weapons have a lot more margin for error when baddies are praying and spraying with them. The ScRs high alpha damage does reward players with good aim. But the heat buildup prevents prolonged engagements and punishes noobs that don't know how to handle the ScR. Also there is always going to be one weapon that is king at something. The mechanics of the ScR allow it to be very, very good at 1 v 1, ok at 1 v 2, and your probably a dead man at 1 v 3. Especially with all the armor suits running around. If I know I will engage in a lot of cqc, I prefer the RS90 over my CRW as it doesn't overheat and kills almost as fast. Its because of people like me, that can kill 7 people with it before i overheat that people like him think there is something wrong with it, the diffrence is i squeeze ever last ounce of performance out of my suit, enviroment, threat assesment, aim, reaction speed, cover and i couple that to an Alpha Strike weapon, then when they see the killfeed roll in start foaming at the lips. (7 is my record in CQC in rapid succession, 6 of them where a Maphia Clan Unit i was instantly loaded with a Tearmail saying Turbo Scrub, so i swapped to a fully auto ASCR and we re-enacted the same scenario, he later oppologized to me as they were all very very dead again :p) People Don't know how it is to see 7 people swarm you from opposite sides, with just a bit of boxes for cover its goes like SCR KIll, SGM Kill, cover, SCR KILL, SCR KILL, SMG KILL, cover, Elbow, SMG KILL, SCR Kill and have an empty SMG and an overheating SCR and 3 Armor Health left... all they see is KillFeed Rei bla bla KillFeed Rei bla bla KillFeed Rei bla bla KillFeed Rei bla bla KillFeed Rei bla bla KillFeed Rei bla bla KillFeed Rei bla bla and go apesh*t OMG Gun is OP!! PS: 3-4 is a more reasonable amount to kill that one can do on many occasions with the SCR before overheat sets in, 7 is just my record :p but 4 where headshots Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1368	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:26:00 - [44] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Because this statement does not contradict what is posted on the first post ? What do you mean by this? Did you mean "does contradict" instead of "does not contradict". Not that the statement in question actually contradicts the math used in the OP. In the OP, that weapon efficacy was not being factored, except in the case of the ACR, was stated. The reason why it was not factored is because, on average it is a nonfactor. The number of people armor tanking and ships tanking sould be roughly equivalent. And brick tanking, like the fit you pasted is, is a non factor as well, since the difference in the amount of armor vs shield is roughly equivalent. As I've said my math is accurate and I can prove this to you if you insist. Just say the word. Brick tanking is a none factor? You just proved you don't know what the hell you are talking about. All heavies are brick tanked. Almost all Gal, and Amarr med frames are brick tanked. Most minny med frames are brick tanked and the few that aren't still have more armor then shields. Caldari med frames are normally closer in balance unless they have stacked damage mods, thus giving them more armor than shields. Even the Gal proto Scott can and often does have 500-600 armor. Get your facts straight. The reduced damage a ScR does against armor suits effects the guns performance. This is one reason I often switch to my smg during a cqc fight as I get the armor bonus and I won't overheat and die. Well said, he should try to kill a Gall Logi with a core rep tool on his *ss, that brick EHP doesnt even move when we go to armor, even with 3 damage mods it only shakes lightly. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 840	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:37:00 - [45] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: I looks like i am insisting, because you do not take into cosideration fits that are 225/522 or the way around, i posted 2 fits a 443/522 and a 225/522, the latter you didnt even go into. I you wanted the math of that fit as well, all you had to do was ask: Prot ScR: 1.18371213 Proto RR1.39006191 But, in adition to the ScR still wining it is a moot point when you have guys running around with the exact opposit fitting 500 shield 200 armor. Do you want me to post the TTK for one of those? You won't like it I guarantee. Also I am procrastinating on posting the math, because it is a lot of work, until you say these word "show me the math. And then I'm going to be like, ahh ****, this is going to suck. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 840	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:48:00 - [46] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Because this statement does not contradict what is posted on the first post ? What do you mean by this? Did you mean "does contradict" instead of "does not contradict". Not that the statement in question actually contradicts the math used in the OP. In the OP, that weapon efficacy was not being factored, except in the case of the ACR, was stated. The reason why it was not factored is because, on average it is a nonfactor. The number of people armor tanking and ships tanking sould be roughly equivalent. And brick tanking, like the fit you pasted is, is a non factor as well, since the difference in the amount of armor vs shield is roughly equivalent. As I've said my math is accurate and I can prove this to you if you insist. Just say the word. Brick tanking is a none factor? You just proved you don't know what the hell you are talking about. All heavies are brick tanked. Almost all Gal, and Amarr med frames are brick tanked. Most minny med frames are brick tanked and the few that aren't still have more armor then shields. Caldari med frames are normally closer in balance unless they have stacked damage mods, thus giving them more armor than shields. Even the Gal proto Scott can and often does have 500-600 armor. Get your facts straight. The reduced damage a ScR does against armor suits effects the guns performance. This is one reason I often switch to my smg during a cqc fight as I get the armor bonus and I won't overheat and die. Dude, learn math, then come back and talk to me. I am quite confident that I have proved my point against you to anybody who is sufficiently educated in mathematics, I imagine that this would include the folks at CCP. I'm through arguing with you. Grow a brain then come back and talk to me. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1370	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:49:00 - [47] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: I looks like i am insisting, because you do not take into cosideration fits that are 225/522 or the way around, i posted 2 fits a 443/522 and a 225/522, the latter you didnt even go into. I you wanted the math of that fit as well, all you had to do was ask: Prot ScR: 1.18371213 Proto RR1.39006191 But, in adition to the ScR still wining it is a moot point when you have guys running around with the exact opposit fitting 500 shield 200 armor (do you know anything about the law of averages and why it is used?). Do you want me to post the TTK for one of those? You won't like it I guarantee. Also I am procrastinating on posting the math, because it is a lot of work, until you say these word "show me the math. And then I'm going to be like, ahh ****, this is going to suck. {edit>>> forgot to as spool time. So RR should be: 1.64006191 Math is still too slow if you consider with skills at 4 you are doing 67.76 damage with an RR, not concerning about Mods or Efficiency its still doing 512 Damage per second or needing 1.63 seconds to kill on a 225/522 suit. So somehow, you are not appling damage mods on there? Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 619	Posted - 2014.01.08 14:58:00 - [48] - Quote mmmmm Maths, and it's done badly woooo. Ok this is my area, none of you are gonna like it but I'm gonna lay out all the maths. I'm gonna use the base weapon with no skills. because that's where you start. and I'm gonna show the maths wiiiiii. Assualt riffle. rate of fire 750 rounds per minute. or 1 round every .08 seconds thats 60/750 seconds/rounds :) dmg per round 34. so 400 dmg in 11.7647 shots. ok so we multiply that out and we get .9411 seconds to do 400 dmg. Scrambler rifle. rate of fire 705.88 rounds per minute so that's 60/705.88 we get .085 rounds per second. dmg per round is 72 so 400 dmg in 5.555 shots. ok so we again multiply that out and we get .4721 seconds to do 400 dmg Combat riffle. rate of fire 1200 rounds per minute. so we have 60/1200 we get .05 rounds a second. dmg per round is 32 so 400 dmg in 12.5 rounds. more muliplication gives us .625 seconds. and finally the Rail rifle. rate of fire 461.54 rounds per minute so 60/461.54 we get .12999 rounds a second. dmg per round is 55 so 400 rounds in 7.2727 shots more maths means we have a total time of .9447 ok now that you have all of the proper math, feel free to argue about what is and is not over powered. Dust514 Stats, Have you updated today? I do maths, and sit in a corner.
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1370	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:03:00 - [49] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: mmmmm Maths, and it's done badly woooo. Ok this is my area, none of you are gonna like it but I'm gonna lay out all the maths. I'm gonna use the base weapon with no skills. because that's where you start. and I'm gonna show the maths wiiiiii. Assualt riffle. rate of fire 750 rounds per minute. or 1 round every .08 seconds thats 60/750 seconds/rounds :) dmg per round 34. so 400 dmg in 11.7647 shots. ok so we multiply that out and we get .9411 seconds to do 400 dmg. Scrambler rifle. rate of fire 705.88 rounds per minute so that's 60/705.88 we get .085 rounds per second. dmg per round is 72 so 400 dmg in 5.555 shots. ok so we again multiply that out and we get .4721 seconds to do 400 dmg Combat riffle. rate of fire 1200 rounds per minute. so we have 60/1200 we get .05 rounds a second. dmg per round is 32 so 400 dmg in 12.5 rounds. more muliplication gives us .625 seconds. and finally the Rail rifle. rate of fire 461.54 rounds per minute so 60/461.54 we get .12999 rounds a second. dmg per round is 55 so 400 rounds in 7.2727 shots more maths means we have a total time of .9447 ok now that you have all of the proper math, feel free to argue about what is and is not over powered. your math takes into consideration eveyone using the SCR has a modded controller and fires at its full Rof, witch is not the case, but i do agree they need to fix that issue. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 619	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:05:00 - [50] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: your math takes into consideration eveyone using the SCR has a modded controller and fires at its full Rof, witch is not the case, but i do agree they need to fix that issue. Negative sir, I am just using the values provided by CCP in the game client. they are avalible on the show info screen under the attributes tab. Dust514 Stats, Have you updated today? I do maths, and sit in a corner.

Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1370	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:06:00 - [51] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: your math takes into consideration eveyone using the SCR has a modded controller and fires at its full Rof, witch is not the case, but i do agree they need to fix that issue. Negative sir, I am just using the values provided by CCP in the game client. they are avalible on the show info screen under the attributes tab. Oh you are one of those guys, nm carry on Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 619	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:09:00 - [52] - Quote you mean some one that knows how to do maths, does them with the proper numbers as supplied by the database? Yes, yes I am. Did you not read my signature? Dust514 Stats, Have you updated today? I do maths, and sit in a corner.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 840	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:12:00 - [53] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: I looks like i am insisting, because you do not take into cosideration fits that are 225/522 or the way around, i posted 2 fits a 443/522 and a 225/522, the latter you didnt even go into. I you wanted the math of that fit as well, all you had to do was ask: Prot ScR: 1.18371213 Proto RR1.39006191 But, in adition to the ScR still wining it is a moot point when you have guys running around with the exact opposit fitting 500 shield 200 armor (do you know anything about the law of averages and why it is used?). Do you want me to post the TTK for one of those? You won't like it I guarantee. Also I am procrastinating on posting the math, because it is a lot of work, until you say these word "show me the math. And then I'm going to be like, ahh ****, this is going to suck. {edit>>> forgot to as spool time. So RR should be: 1.64006191 Math is still too slow if you consider with skills at 4 you are doing 67.76 damage with an RR, not concerning about Mods or Efficiency its still doing 512 Damage per second or needing 1.63 seconds to kill on a 225/522 suit. So somehow, you are not appling damage mods on there? Wasn't attempting to apply damage mods because it is another nonfactor. Here I'll demonstrate: ScR: 0.93658619 RR: 1.34985592 A grand total of 0.04308005 difference between TTK. WOW, we were missing a lot not calculating those three damage mods weren't we {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1370	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:13:00 - [54] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: you mean some one that knows how to do maths, does them with the proper numbers as supplied by the database? Yes, yes I am. Did you not read my signature? No i mean your one of those guys that just use the absolute numbers, not factoring in what can be achived in reality, show me how you shoot 12 times with an SCR or i wont believe your math, yes i am one of those people. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 619	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:18:00 - [55] - Quote who said 12, I believe I said 11.76. Also the math is the math, no matter your beliefs. that's what those numbers work out to. I don't see you arguing about the combat rifle with is a three round burst and it's rate of fire. or the fact that the rail riffle has a spin up time. these are the limits, so you either work at those known factors or you make guesses. using the limits lets you say that at their maximum fire rates achivable or not, this is what they do. and until such a time as the laws of math change, or CCP changes the data in the games those are the numbers. Dust514 Stats, Have you updated today? I do maths, and sit in a corner.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 840	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:19:00 - [56] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: mmmmm Maths, and it's done badly woooo. Ok this is my area, none of you are gonna like it but I'm gonna lay out all the maths. I'm gonna use the base weapon with no skills. because that's where you start. and I'm gonna show the maths wiiiiii. Assualt riffle. rate of fire 750 rounds per minute. or 1 round every .08 seconds thats 60/750 seconds/rounds :) dmg per round 34. so 400 dmg in 11.7647 shots. ok so we multiply that out and we get .9411 seconds to do 400 dmg. Scrambler rifle. rate of fire 705.88 rounds per minute so that's 60/705.88 we get .085 rounds per second. dmg per round is 72 so 400 dmg in 5.555 shots. ok so we again multiply that out and we get .4721 seconds to do 400 dmg Combat riffle. rate of fire 1200 rounds per minute. so we have 60/1200 we get .05 rounds a second. dmg per round is 32 so 400 dmg in 12.5 rounds. more muliplication gives us .625 seconds. and finally the Rail rifle. rate of fire 461.54 rounds per minute so 60/461.54 we get .12999 rounds a second. dmg per round is 55 so 400 rounds in 7.2727 shots more maths means we have a total time of .9447 ok now that you have all of the proper math, feel free to argue about what is and is not over powered. Te exact math I used calculated to 600 damage instead of 400. Also I do believe that ther is a unlisted burst delay interval, so I am pretty sure that your vanilla CR stats are off. {edit>>> also I used a lower RoF for the ScR for reasons stated in the OP. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 619	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:23:00 - [57] - Quote there may be a refire delay, I would have to ask wolfman next time he drops by the irc channel. but you can only work with data that is presented. Dust514 Stats, Have you updated today? I do maths, and sit in a corner.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 840	Posted - 2014.01.08 15:26:00 - [58] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: mmmmm Maths, and it's done badly woooo. Ok this is my area, none of you are gonna like it but I'm gonna lay out all the maths. I'm gonna use the base weapon with no skills. because that's where you start. and I'm gonna show the maths wiiiiii. Assualt riffle. rate of fire 750 rounds per minute. or 1 round every .08 seconds thats 60/750 seconds/rounds :) dmg per round 34. so 400 dmg in 11.7647 shots. ok so we multiply that out and we get .9411 seconds to do 400 dmg. Scrambler rifle. rate of fire 705.88 rounds per minute so that's 60/705.88 we get .085 rounds per second. dmg per round is 72 so 400 dmg in 5.555 shots. ok so we again multiply that out and we get .4721 seconds to do 400 dmg Combat riffle. rate of fire 1200 rounds per minute. so we have 60/1200 we get .05 rounds a second. dmg per round is 32 so 400 dmg in 12.5 rounds. more muliplication gives us .625 seconds. and finally the Rail rifle. rate of fire 461.54 rounds per minute so 60/461.54 we get .12999 rounds a second. dmg per round is 55 so 400 rounds in 7.2727 shots more maths means we have a total time of .9447 ok now that you have all of the proper math, feel free to argue about what is and is not over powered. The exact math I used calculated to 600 damage instead of 400. Also I do believe that ther is a unlisted burst delay interval, so I am pretty sure that your vanilla CR stats are off. {edit>>> also I used a lower RoF for the ScR for reasons stated in the OP. {:)}{3GÇó> "Well, at least he didn't do that walking against the wind sh!t. I hate that."
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1709	Posted - 2014.01.27 10:00:00 - [59] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: +1 for science, sir. I believe these are reasonable suggestions. Honestly, DUST's devs should talk to the EVE devs more. It took the EVE guys a while to realize a gun can't both have equal/superior DPS and superior range and be balanced. Pass that knowledge on to your coworkers, CCP dudes. 1 problem here. EVE weapons are pure stats, there is no human element to them and they are all equally easy to use. Lock on. Click. When a weapon in a shooter is harder to use, it is rewarded with better performance than similar weapons that are easier to use. This has been a staple of shooter gameplay for decades. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness 1063	Posted - 2014.01.27 10:03:00 - [60] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Disturbingly Bored wrote: +1 for science, sir. I believe these are reasonable suggestions. Honestly, DUST's devs should talk to the EVE devs more. It took the EVE guys a while to realize a gun can't both have equal/superior DPS and superior range and be balanced. Pass that knowledge on to your coworkers, CCP dudes. 1 problem here. EVE weapons are pure stats, there is no human element to them and they are all equally easy to use. Lock on. Click. When a weapon in a shooter is harder to use, it is rewarded with better performance than similar weapons that are easier to use. This has been a staple of shooter gameplay for decades. I am not saying that it should not be rewarded, but the numbers clearly demonstrate that it is being rewards FAR TO MUCH. {:)}{3GÇó>

BIind Shot Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 70	Posted - 2014.01.31 07:32:00 - [61] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Disturbingly Bored wrote: +1 for science, sir. I believe these are reasonable suggestions. Honestly, DUST's devs should talk to the EVE devs more. It took the EVE guys a while to realize a gun can't both have equal/superior DPS and superior range and be balanced. Pass that knowledge on to your coworkers, CCP dudes. 1 problem here. EVE weapons are pure stats, there is no human element to them and they are all equally easy to use. Lock on. Click. When a weapon in a shooter is harder to use, it is rewarded with better performance than similar weapons that are easier to use. This has been a staple of shooter gameplay for decades. Ever heard the term noob tube?
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 624	Posted - 2014.01.31 07:44:00 - [62] - Quote i have yet to 'burst' a vanilla CR at full 1200 Rpm. Try about 3-6 pulls a second. At 1200 theoretical rpm, you can do 20 a second. There is no way a Cr can do 20. I'll try and run some tests tomorrow, seeing if its even possible to attain 20 bullets a second. Most likely 15, as 18 means 5 full auto 'bursts' with a 1 shot interval between 3 bursts. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) Selling SP: 10k SP per 100k ISK.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1077	Posted - 2014.01.31 07:49:00 - [63] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: i have yet to 'burst' a vanilla CR at full 1200 Rpm. Try about 3-6 pulls a second. At 1200 theoretical rpm, you can do 20 a second. There is no way a Cr can do 20. I'll try and run some tests tomorrow, seeing if its even possible to attain 20 bullets a second. Most likely 15, as 18 means 5 full auto 'bursts' with a 1 shot interval between 3 bursts. When I tested I was pulling 5 at just over one second timed with a stopwatch. {:)}{3GÇó>
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 772	Posted - 2014.01.31 07:53:00 - [64] - Quote Numbers are nice and all but numbers in an fps game isn't everything. On paper you're right. However once you go out of your way to test these things in a practical way on the battlefield, you'll find different answers. There are simply too many variables on the battlefield. You can't justify balanced changes with numbers alone Btw scrambler is meant to be the highest alpha dmg weapon in rifle variants. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| Banishment this World! \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Another Matari Terrorist Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.01.31 08:04:00 - [65] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: i have yet to 'burst' a vanilla CR at full 1200 Rpm. Try about 3-6 pulls a second. At 1200 theoretical rpm, you can do 20 a second. There is no way a Cr can do 20. I'll try and run some tests tomorrow, seeing if its even possible to attain 20 bullets a second. Most likely 15, as 18 means 5 full auto 'bursts' with a 1 shot interval between 3 bursts. That's only 400 pulls per minute; I can max out my KLO, so I'm reasonably confident I could max out the CR without an issue.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1077	Posted - 2014.01.31 08:15:00 - [66] - Quote Another Matari Terrorist wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: i have yet to 'burst' a vanilla CR at full 1200 Rpm. Try about 3-6 pulls a second. At 1200 theoretical rpm, you can do 20 a second. There is no way a Cr can do 20. I'll try and run some tests tomorrow, seeing if its even possible to attain 20 bullets a second. Most likely 15, as 18 means 5 full auto 'bursts' with a 1 shot interval between 3 bursts. That's only 400 pulls per minute; I can max out my KLO, so I'm reasonably confident I could max out the CR without an issue. Lolwut? I can max out my Visiam (500 r/m). It's rare but it happens. You can't max out a KLO at 444? I max my TT-3 all the time it's quite annoying actually. I can't even use a KLO for how slow it is. {edit>>> oops, my bad. Could have swore you said can't not can. {:)}{3GÇó>
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 624	Posted - 2014.01.31 08:35:00 - [67] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Another Matari Terrorist wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: i have yet to 'burst' a vanilla CR at full 1200 Rpm. Try about 3-6 pulls a second. At 1200 theoretical rpm, you can do 20 a second. There is no way a Cr can do 20. I'll try and run some tests tomorrow, seeing if its even possible to attain 20 bullets a second. Most likely 15, as 18 means 5 full auto 'bursts' with a 1 shot interval between 3 bursts. That's only 400 pulls per minute; I can max out my KLO, so I'm reasonably confident I could max out the CR without an issue. Lolwut? I can max out my Visiam (500 r/m). It's rare but it happens. You can't max out a KLO at 444? I max my TT-3 all the time it's quite annoying actually. I can't even use a KLO for how slow it is. {edit>>> oops, my bad. Could have swore you said can't not can. Not going to doubt you can max out a scrp. I do it myself on occasion. But we're talking 10 shot clip versus 54 shot clip, being fired in 3 round bursts at '1200' RpM. Let's not forget also that even if you were to max out the Cr, you only do 1600 Damage Per Clip. If a scramblr user plays his cards right, he can pull 3200 damage per clip not even counting charge. 2.5x rite? That's 7k damage per clip on decently spread apart charges. With OH it's like 1300 spam firing, and 800 with a full charge spam combo. This is obviously not counting proficiency, headshots, or even spacing. Might seem a little low, but when does a scrambler user ever need to resupply? When do they ever need to worry about a lone target who has superior tiered gear? 1 CK.0 with a viziam and 4 plates followed by 3 extenders and an energizer can stand on a roof, and deny a third of the map any access, even if you have a Kaala with 3 damage mods. He turns around, spam fires 10 times and your 800 HP commando is instadead from 70-90 meters. Try to forge gun his ass, because instakill alpha is your only hope? He snipes your 1300HP ass down to 12 armor and runs away giggling. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) Selling SP: 10k SP per 100k ISK.
abarkrishna WarRavens 284	Posted - 2014.01.31 08:39:00 - [68] - Quote You are aware instead of reducing the damage per shot you could slightly nerf the rate of fire. Just a slight nerf will make the world of difference. one or 2 shots less a second and most people would not even notice. No you kill this blueberry hacking the CRU we are camping. I already killed the last 2. When will they learn!
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1079	Posted - 2014.01.31 08:45:00 - [69] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Let's not forget also that even if you were to max out the Cr... You can't max out the CR. There is definitely some kind of refire delay interval. Five burst a second only works ot 300 trigger plus a minute. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 09:01:00 - [70] - Quote Stealth ScR nerf thread eh? So I am sure it has been mentioned, but the combat rifle does 27% more damage per trigger squeeze. (72 dmg for ScR versus 96 damage for CR) The combat rifle does 102.5% normalized damage (everyone else does 100% normalized) The combat rifle does not overheat. The combat rifle has 30+% more sustainable DPS than any other wepaon. The sustainable DPS of the ScR is near the bottom of all rifles (remember that pesky overheat? that means 16 shots before overheat or 9 shots with 1 overheated shot) The ScR can (and does) kill the user of the weapon (through overheating damage). So that makes it pretty clear that the CR is the OP rifle. Then again, all of the rifles do way too much damage, and there is not reason why a rifle with double the range (RR) should do anywhere near the same amount of damage the AR does. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

Lorhak Gannarsein 1435	Posted - 2014.01.31 09:03:00 - [71] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Another Matari Terrorist wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: i have yet to 'burst' a vanilla CR at full 1200 Rpm. Try about 3-6 pulls a second. At 1200 theoretical rpm, you can do 20 a second. There is no way a Cr can do 20. I'll try and run some tests tomorrow, seeing if its even possible to attain 20 bullets a second. Most likely 15, as 18 means 5 full auto 'bursts' with a 1 shot interval between 3 bursts. That's only 400 pulls per minute; I can max out my KLO, so I'm reasonably confident I could max out the CR without an issue. Lolwut? I can max out my Visiam (500 r/m). It's rare but it happens. You can't max out a KLO at 444? I max my TT-3 all the time it's quite annoying actually. I can't even use a KLO for how slow it is. {edit>>> oops, my bad. Could have swore you said can't not can. I don't actually have TT-3 Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 09:06:00 - [72] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Let's not forget also that even if you were to max out the Cr... You can't max out the CR. There is definitely some kind of refire delay interval. Five burst a second only works ot 300 trigger plus a minute. WHAT??.... I can quite easily empty the entire clip in just under 3 seconds. 54/18 = 3, meaning that I am firing at very very close to the max fire rate of 6.66 trigger pulls per second. (I average 6) This also means that I can put out about 1,000 DPS for 3 seconds and then reload and do it again, for as long as I ave nano hives. For the cheap seats, this works out to about 600 DPS sustained DPS. I can do 2,700 over a period of 9 seconds with the ScR (you know, that pesky 5 second seize where I am completely defenseless). This works out to a sustained DPS of 300. *note, I do not include reload times here. Face it , CR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all other rifles. To put it another way, proof or STFU. I am calling you out for a video of this trigger pull clipping. The burdern of proof is on you. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1079	Posted - 2014.01.31 09:35:00 - [73] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Stealth ScR nerf thread eh? It's not a nerf thread. I have simply done the math looking for anomalies, have found some and reported on them. "So I am sure it has been mentioned, but the combat rifle does -á27% more damage per trigger squeeze. (72 dmg for ScR versus 96 damage for CR)" What does that mater when the trigger on a CR can only be pulled at most 5 times a second, where as, the ScR can be pulled in excess of 8 times per minute? "The combat rifle does 102.5% normalized damage (everyone else does 100% normalized)" This was already accounted for in my initial analysis found in my OP. "The combat rifle has 30+% more sustainable DPS than any other wepaon." Exactly what numbers are you basing this on?-á Std AR damage per mag: 2,040 Std RR damage per mag: 2,310 Std CR damage per mag: 1,728 "The sustainable DPS of the ScR is near the bottom of all rifles (remember that pesky overheat? that means 16 shots before overheat or 9 shots with 1 overheated shot)" I just recently tested this, it is 19 rounds before over heat, with a damage output of 1,425 at the std level unmoded. "The ScR can (and does) kill the user of the weapon (through overheating damage)." This does not excuse the gross imbalance in TTK/payload delivery between the ScR and the other rifles. "So that makes it pretty clear that the CR is the OP rifle." Now, explain to me how that works again, given that I have just countered all your points, and clearly demonstrated the gross imbalance in TTK between these weapons in my OP. "Then again, all of the rifles do way too much damage, and there is not reason why a rifle with double the range (RR) should do anywhere near the same amount of damage the AR does." And the RR doesn't, as can clearly be seen with the number given in my OP. {:)}{3GÇó>
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 09:40:00 - [74] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Let's not forget also that even if you were to max out the Cr... You can't max out the CR. There is definitely some kind of refire delay interval. Five burst a second only works ot 300 trigger plus a minute. WHAT??.... I can quite easily empty the entire clip in just under 3 seconds. 54/18 = 3, meaning that I am firing at very very close to the max fire rate of 6.66 trigger pulls per second. (I average 6) This also means that I can put out about 1,000 DPS for 3 seconds and then reload and do it again, for as long as I ave nano hives. For the cheap seats, this works out to about 600 DPS sustained DPS. I can do 2,700 over a period of 9 seconds with the ScR (you know, that pesky 5 second seize where I am completely defenseless). This works out to a sustained DPS of 300. note, I do not include reload times here. Face it , CR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all other rifles. To put it another way, proof or STFU. I am calling you out for a video of this trigger pull clipping. The burdern of proof is on you. Can I see the timed footage (with a stop watch or what have you). Because I actually have timed it with a stop watch. So I'm going to have to call bull*** here. {:)}{3GÇó>
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 09:46:00 - [75] - Quote Ok, just retimed it again and the vanilla CR come out to 5 bursts in 1.1 seconds. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 09:52:00 - [76] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Let's not forget also that even if you were to max out the Cr... You can't max out the CR. There is definitely some kind of refire delay interval. Five burst a second only works ot 300 trigger plus a minute. WHAT??.... I can quite easily empty the entire clip in just under 3 seconds. 54/18 = 3, meaning that I am firing at very very close to the max fire rate of 6.66 trigger pulls per second. (I average 6) This also means that I can put out about 1,000 DPS for 3 seconds and then reload and do it again, for as long as I ave nano hives. For the cheap seats, this works out to about 600 DPS sustained DPS. I can do 2,700 over a period of 9 seconds with the ScR (you know, that pesky 5 second seize where I am completely defenseless). This works out to a sustained DPS of 300. note, I do not include reload times here. Face it , CR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all other rifles. To put it another way, proof or STFU. I am calling you out for a video of this trigger pull clipping. The burdern of proof is on you. Can I see the timed (with a stop watch or what have you). Because I actually have timed it with a stop watch. So I'm going to have to call bull*** here. See that is the wonderful thing, you have made the assertion that it is impossible to max out the DPS of the CR, you have made that claim. There is absolutely NO evidence to point to the clipping of trigger pulls. There has been none for the Scrambler pistol, the TAC AR, or the SCR (not like you could without a turbo controller on the SCR.). You are making a claim that is unique among dust 514, and therefor it is YOU who have to back up your claim. The math is quite simple, 1200/3=400 RPM. This means if you pull the trigger UNDER 6.66 times a second then it should be IMPOSSIBLE to clip anyway. my assertion is that I can pull the trigger around 6 times a second, as I can reliably prove here. ( I score 5.9-6.1 consistently) This means at base, a SCR does 432 DPS for me and it overheats after 16 shots (unless I spend another 2.5 mil sp on amarr assault, and only use that one suit, then it is 25 shots.) This means that I can do 432 DPS per second for between 3 and 4 seconds before I AM HELPLESS FOR 5 SECONDS. Using the base CR, I can do 552 DPS without overheat and damaging myself, for 3 seconds. Not only that, the CR has an average of 102.5% dmg, rather than the 100% of the ScR, making that 565 DPS, or to put it another way, it does 31% more damage. Proof or STFU. CR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScR. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:12:00 - [77] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Let's not forget also that even if you were to max out the Cr... You can't max out the CR. There is definitely some kind of refire delay interval. Five burst a second only works ot 300 trigger plus a minute. WHAT??.... I can quite easily empty the entire clip in just under 3 seconds. 54/18 = 3, meaning that I am firing at very very close to the max fire rate of 6.66 trigger pulls per second. (I average 6) This also means that I can put out about 1,000 DPS for 3 seconds and then reload and do it again, for as long as I ave nano hives. For the cheap seats, this works out to about 600 DPS sustained DPS. I can do 2,700 over a period of 9 seconds with the ScR (you know, that pesky 5 second seize where I am completely defenseless). This works out to a sustained DPS of 300. note, I do not include reload times here. Face it , CR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all other rifles. To put it another way, proof or STFU. I am calling you out for a video of this trigger pull clipping. The burdern of proof is on you. Can I see the timed (with a stop watch or what have you). Because I actually have timed it with a stop watch. So I'm going to have to call bull*** here. See that is the wonderful thing, you have made the assertion that it is impossible to max out the DPS of the CR, you have made that claim. There is absolutely NO evidence to point to the clipping of trigger pulls. There has been none for the Scrambler pistol, the TAC AR, or the SCR (not like you could without a turbo controller on the SCR.). You are making a claim that is unique among dust 514, and therefor it is YOU who have to back up your claim. The math is quite simple, 1200/3=400 RPM. This means if you pull the trigger UNDER 6.66 times a second then it should be IMPOSSIBLE to clip anyway. my assertion is that I can pull the trigger around 6 times a second, as I can reliably prove here. ( I score 5.9-6.1 consistently) This means at base, a SCR does 432 DPS for me and it overheats after 16 shots (unless I spend another 2.5 mil sp on amarr assault, and only use that one suit, then it is 25 shots.) This means that I can do 432 DPS per second for between 3 and 4 seconds before I AM HELPLESS FOR 5 SECONDS. Using the base CR, I can do 552 DPS without overheat and damaging myself, for 3 seconds. Not only that, the CR has an average of 102.5% dmg, rather than the 100% of the ScR, making that 565 DPS, or to put it another way, it does 31% more damage. Proof or STFU. CR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScR. Dude pay really close attentetion, because it frustrates me to unnecessarily have to repeat myself over and over again. I just timed how many burst the CR can put out in a second with a stop watch. It's 5 in 1.1 seconds. I don't have to prove anything. If someone doesn't believe me then they can get a stop watch and a friend and time themselves and find out that I was telling the truth. It's not hard to do. And I don't care how fast you can pull a trigger, your not going to be able to fire more bursts in a set amount of time the the games programming will alow you to. The is a reason why the assault variant, which is fully auto at 1200 r/m, only does 22 damage, while the burst does 32. There is a refire delay before each consecutively fired burst. Now stop talking out you @$$ your wasting my time. {:)}{3GÇó>
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1702	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:12:00 - [78] - Quote I Call BS. Having maxed out (almost) the Scr and the CR I don't agree at all. Your Math only tells some of the story. Don't forget the situational nature of the guns. If I'm going in Close or any "normal" sort of Battle I would use the CR. Its quicker, more flexible and better vs multiple opponents. Then again, when faced With that Group that just won't leave their advantageous position. You know, high ground, behind fences and so on. And this is no small issue, Dust is a game With more campers than I've ever seen. So faced With 5 dudes With rail rifles and a solid position With open ground around it, how much is my CR Worth? Asolutely nothing. These are the situations where the Scr is brilliant. Its not only the range, but its the high alpha. With the Scr I can charge up, pop out of cover, kill 1 dude and go back into cover. Doing this, even at Shorter range With a CR makes me much more voulnerable to enemy fire. Yesterday I had this sort of game. Playing alone in domination With more or less the entire enemy team camped up on a pyramid defending the objective from there. Its within range of the CR, but when I pop out of cover I had 5-6 dudes shoting back at me, I couldn't put out enough damage to score a kil before I was dead mysalf. I switched to the Scr and started to completely destroy the other team. With that I could kill 1 dude quickly enough to survive the enemy barrage. Go to cover, charge a shot, pop out a New Place and rinse and repeat. I do however feel like the removal of the Amar Assault bouns was uneccissary. Its not like that combo is any more OP than, lets say a Galente Assault With a RR.... The Scr is as Close to an "Assault sniper" we've come in Dust. The CR is a Close/med range rapid fire burst AR. You can't simply put a DPS number and say thas that. Its way too simple. Scr - CR Balance is good enough. http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:13:00 - [79] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Stealth ScR nerf thread eh? It's not a nerf thread. I have simply done the math looking for anomalies, have found some and reported on them. "So I am sure it has been mentioned, but the combat rifle does -á27% more damage per trigger squeeze. (72 dmg for ScR versus 96 damage for CR)" What does that mater when the trigger on a CR can only be pulled at most 5 times a second, where as, the ScR can be pulled in excess of 8 times per second? proof or STFU Quote: "The combat rifle does 102.5% normalized damage (everyone else does 100% normalized)" This was already accounted for in my initial analysis found in my OP. "The combat rifle has 30+% more sustainable DPS than any other wepaon." Exactly what numbers are you basing this on?-á Std AR damage per mag: 2,040 Std RR damage per mag: 2,310 Std CR damage per mag: 1,728 Sustainable DPS is what you get when you calculate the maximum damage that can be done constantly with a weapon. This is a very very straight forward process for the weapons without overheat. You multiple the damage per round by the rounds in a magazine and divide that by the product of the rounds per second and the reload time. In the case of the Combat Rifle, this goes: (32 damage per round * 54 rounds per magazine) / ( [54 rounds per magazine/20 rounds per second] + 2.6 second reload) (3254) / ([54/18] +2.6) = 308 (at my firing speed or 6 pulls per second) The ScR is different, you have an upper limit of the amount of damage you can do before overheating kicks in, and then you are stopped. This happens much faster and more often than the magazine empting, so this is your ScR damage limiting factor. The SCR can fire 16 rounds before overheat (25 on the amarr assault). This is the number you should use when calculating sustained DPS. So the calculation goes as follows: Damage per round times the rounds before overheat divided by the length of seizure (which is 5 seconds.) (72 damage per round 16 rounds) / ([16/6] + 5) = 150 DPS. OR if you must stick with your obviously biased damage per magazine, you should consider the ScR magazine to be between 16 to 25 rounds, because after that firing you are overheated and probably dead (because you can't use a sidearm/sprint and you just did a free 50 DMG to yourself) Quote: "The sustainable DPS of the ScR is near the bottom of all rifles (remember that pesky overheat? that means 16 shots before overheat or 9 shots with 1 overheated shot)" I just recently tested this, it is 19 rounds before over heat, with a damage output of 1,425 at the std level unmoded. No, the amount of rounds you can shoot before overheat depend upon your firing speed. I get 16 rounds reliably before overheat (25 with maxxed amarr assault), I think with a turbo controller you get 10. At your rate of fire (I guess 5 rounds per second) the ScR does 350 DPS at base for 4 seconds, and then you are HELPLESS FOR 5 SECONDS. In that same time with a CR would have done 1728 (480 DPS) and already be 0.4 seconds into your reload, able to switch weapons or sprint. Thanks for helping me prove my point. Quote: "The ScR can (and does) kill the user of the weapon (through overheating damage)." This does not excuse the gross imbalance in TTK/payload delivery between the ScR and the other rifles. "So that makes it pretty clear that the CR is the OP rifle." Now, explain to me how that works again, given that I have just countered all your points, and clearly demonstrated the gross imbalance in TTK between these weapons in my OP. "Then again, all of the rifles do way too much damage, and there is not reason why a rifle with double the range (RR) should do anywhere near the same amount of damage the AR does." And the RR doesn't, as can clearly be seen with the number given in my OP. You have proven nothing other than you are bad at math an analytical observations. I have shown how your numbers are flawed, and your reasoning is flawed. I have not made any wild claims (trigger pull clipping) that are completely un-founded and without evidence (hence merrit). Just stop. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:22:00 - [80] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Dude pay really close attentetion, because it frustrates me to unnecessarily have to repeat myself over and over again. I just timed how many burst the CR can put out in a second with a stop watch. It's 5 in 1.1 seconds. I don't have to prove anything. If someone doesn't believe me then they can get a stop watch and a friend and time themselves and find out that I was telling the truth. It's not hard to do. And I don't care how fast you can pull a trigger, your not going to be able to fire more bursts in a set amount of time the the games programming will alow you to. The is a reason why the assault variant, which is fully auto at 1200 r/m, only does 22 damage, while the burst does 32. There is a refire delay before each consecutively fired burst. Now stop talking out you @$$ your wasting my time. Just because you repeat a lie a bunch of times doesn't make it magically true. You are not a politician. You are making a claim (trigger pull clipping) that HAS NEVER BEEN MADE BEFORE. Your proof of this? It is your word that you have timed yourself. This means NOTHING. You word is worth less than nothing, because by relying on only this poor bit of information, you show that you are incapable or providing actual evidence. This calls into question your motives, and wether or not you are lying (signs point to lying). I too have timed how long it takes me to empty a clip of a CR, I got about 3 seconds. This means I was pulling the trigger around 6 times per second(of course this claim is unfounded because it is just my word and I do not have a video of it). This lines up with my average click speed at the above site I linked to before. Fortunately I am not the one making the claim (trigger pull clipping) with no proof of either a) being physically able to trigger pull above 5 times per second or b) the clipping itself Your prior claim of 19 trigger pulls before the ScR overheated proves that you are not pulling the trigger very fast. Just stop man. You look like you are either a 11 year old trying to argue, or are purposefully trying to get a gun that kills you nerfed. The CR >>>>>>>>>>>>> all rifles for damage. That isn't right. the AR should have the highest damage out of all rifle, but unfortunately it does less DPS that just about all of other rifles. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:24:00 - [81] - Quote I'm through arguing with you bro. I have made my case quite clearly. And I am quite certain that any one with half a brain can see exactly what I am saying and the truth of it. Lol, sustainable DPS. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:41:00 - [82] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I'm through arguing with you bro. I have made my case quite clearly. And I am quite certain that any one with half a brain can see that exactly what I am and the truth of it. Lol, sustainable DPS. Ok so this means that you have been thoroughly disproven right? I mean, I have point-by-point discredited EVERYTHING you have claimed, and shown that you are incompetent right? People emptying the CR in 3 seconds or less Here 17-18 shots before overheat with SCR on un-bonused suit. here Click per second calculator here When are you going to stop lying, stop misrepresenting stuff, and show some freaking proof?? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:47:00 - [83] - Quote I just did another test on emptying a full mag. It takes 4.1 seconds to empty a mag. At 18 bursts per mag that comes out to 0.22777778 seconds per burst. Or, 1.13888889 seconds for five burst. Now I don't have the ability to capture video or believe me I would, just to cram it down this @$$holes throat, but anyone can easily do this test, and to anyone who can post video of them doing this test I welcome it. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:57:00 - [84] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I just did another test on emptying a full mag. It takes 4.1 seconds to empty a mag. At 18 bursts per mag that comes out to 0.22777778 seconds per burst. Or, 1.13888889 seconds for five burst. Now I don't have the ability to capture video or believe me I would, just to cram it down this @$$holes throat, but anyone can easily do this test, and to anyone who can post video of them doing this test I welcome it. Ok so tomorrow when I post a video, and it shows that you are completely and utterly full of ****, you are going to STFU up? I just capture some but I still need to uplaod them. Just FYI, I also captured a scrambler, and I can get 15 rounds before overheat. So when I upload these videos, are you going to STFU? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:57:00 - [85] - Quote People emptying the CR in 3 seconds or less Here I watch this whole video, and not once did it show somonw time ing how long it takes to empty a clip. And you want to go around calling me a liar. Pfft Click per second calculator here Clicks per second doesn't matter if there is a refire delay, you dumb ****. Hope your enjoying making yourself look like a complete @$$. {:)}{3GÇó>
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 10:58:00 - [86] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I just did another test on emptying a full mag. It takes 4.1 seconds to empty a mag. At 18 bursts per mag that comes out to 0.22777778 seconds per burst. Or, 1.13888889 seconds for five burst. Now I don't have the ability to capture video or believe me I would, just to cram it down this @$$holes throat, but anyone can easily do this test, and to anyone who can post video of them doing this test I welcome it. Ok so tomorrow when I post a video, and it shows that you are completely and utterly full of ****, you are going to STFU up? I just capture some but I still need to uplaod them. Just FYI, I also captured a scrambler, and I can get 15 rounds before overheat. So when I upload these videos, are you going to STFU? Give it your best shot. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:02:00 - [87] - Quote ok fine, since you are continuing to be a complete and utter jackass about this, I will make you a wager. IF I show you a video of emptying the magazine in under 4 seconds, you give me 250 mil isk IF I do not, I give you 250 mil isk. Or if you are broke, how about posting privledges. If I post the aforementioned video, you will never post on these forums again, and if I fail to, I will never post again. Come on *******, put you money where your mouth is. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
8213 Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 1566	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:03:00 - [88] - Quote TTK can only be applied to full-automatic weaponry. Fish in a bucket! Darken's Testament SKIPPY
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:07:00 - [89] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ok fine, since you are continuing to be a complete and utter jackass about this, I will make you a wager. IF I show you a video of emptying the magazine in under 4 seconds, you give me 250 mil isk IF I do not, I give you 250 mil isk. Or if you are broke, how about posting privledges. If I post the aforementioned video, you will never post on these forums again, and if I fail to, I will never post again. Come on ******, put you money where your mouth is. What kind of a stupid child are you. shakes his head* Moron. Il post my own in depth video tomorrow how about that? Humm? {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:10:00 - [90] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ok fine, since you are continuing to be a complete and utter jackass about this, I will make you a wager. IF I show you a video of emptying the magazine in under 4 seconds, you give me 250 mil isk IF I do not, I give you 250 mil isk. Or if you are broke, how about posting privledges. If I post the aforementioned video, you will never post on these forums again, and if I fail to, I will never post again. Come on ******, put you money where your mouth is. What kind of a stupid child are you. shakes his head* Moron. Not confident enough to bet? How about 50 mil isk? 20 mil isk? Come on, you are so confident in everything you have said (which I have shot down time and again). This is easy isk for you. Could it be that you realize that you are wrong and just don't want to admit it? Is that the best you can come up with? Moron and child? If I was busy getting all of my math completely disproven, I do not think that is the choice of words I would make. Come on, make the bet. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1080	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:19:00 - [91] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ok fine, since you are continuing to be a complete and utter jackass about this, I will make you a wager. IF I show you a video of emptying the magazine in under 4 seconds, you give me 250 mil isk IF I do not, I give you 250 mil isk. Or if you are broke, how about posting privledges. If I post the aforementioned video, you will never post on these forums again, and if I fail to, I will never post again. Come on ******, put you money where your mouth is. What kind of a stupid child are you. shakes his head* Moron. Not confident enough to bet? What and have you speed up the frames per second in an attempt to cheat no thanx. I'll post my own video. You see ratamaqu doc can do some really cool stuff with his video capture. Screen in screen you'll actually be able to see him pulling the DS3 trigger while we time how long it takes to empty a clip. Like this video he made to prove that he doesn't use a moded controller. I'll upload the video tomorrow, well see how well you like me then. Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0ty2WZ82k8&feature=youtube_gdata_player {:)}{3GÇó>
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1702	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:22:00 - [92] - Quote So OP, no comment about my post on page 4? you know, adresing the actual issue, not merely letting the numbers speak? http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 394	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:29:00 - [93] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ok fine, since you are continuing to be a complete and utter jackass about this, I will make you a wager. IF I show you a video of emptying the magazine in under 4 seconds, you give me 250 mil isk IF I do not, I give you 250 mil isk. Or if you are broke, how about posting privledges. If I post the aforementioned video, you will never post on these forums again, and if I fail to, I will never post again. Come on ******, put you money where your mouth is. What kind of a stupid child are you. shakes his head* Moron. Not confident enough to bet? What and have you speed up the frames per second in an attempt to cheat no thanx. I'll post my own video. You see ratamaqu doc can do some really cool stuff with his video capture. Screen in screen you'll actually be able to see him pulling the DS3 trigger while we time how long it takes to empty a clip. Like this video he made to prove that he doesn't use a moded controller. I'll upload the video tomorrow, well see how well you like me then. Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0ty2WZ82k8&feature=youtube_gdata_player Your buddy can shoot very quickly, he overheated the ScR in 11 shots at one point. He should easily be able to max out the CR. But of course that won't happen right? Stop being a *** and bet me. Come on, you are SO confident, even though all of the math says you are wrong, and of course this trigger clipping has never been claimed by anyone else, let alone proven. But none of that matters right? Stop being a *** and put your money where your mouth is. Come on if you are so confident this should be free isk. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1084	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:38:00 - [94] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ok fine, since you are continuing to be a complete and utter jackass about this, I will make you a wager. IF I show you a video of emptying the magazine in under 4 seconds, you give me 250 mil isk IF I do not, I give you 250 mil isk. Or if you are broke, how about posting privledges. If I post the aforementioned video, you will never post on these forums again, and if I fail to, I will never post again. Come on ******, put you money where your mouth is. What kind of a stupid child are you. shakes his head* Moron. Not confident enough to bet? What and have you speed up the frames per second in an attempt to cheat no thanx. I'll post my own video. You see ratamaqu doc can do some really cool stuff with his video capture. Screen in screen you'll actually be able to see him pulling the DS3 trigger while we time how long it takes to empty a clip. Like this video he made to prove that he doesn't use a moded controller. I'll upload the video tomorrow, well see how well you like me then. Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0ty2WZ82k8&feature=youtube_gdata_player Your buddy can shoot very quickly, he overheated the ScR in 11 shots at one point. He should easily be able to max out the CR. But of course that won't happen right? Stop being a *** and bet me. Come on, you are SO confident, even though all of the math says you are wrong, and of course this trigger clipping has never been claimed by anyone else, let alone proven. But none of that matters right? Stop being a *** and put your money where your mouth is. Come on if you are so confident this should be free isk. Like I said i have tested it my self, but I am a science minded person (always get confirmation), and while I am quite certain that ratamaqu's results will be similar to my own. It is not some thing I would bet on. I am an honest person. I will post the video as soon as I can have him make it. And we will SEE what is what. I don't need to bet you like some ridiculous child trying to prove something. Your shame when I post it will be quite sufficient for me. {:)}{3GÇó>
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1085	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:41:00 - [95] - Quote KingBabar wrote: So OP, no comment about my post on page 4? you know, adresing the actual issue, not merely letting the numbers speak? Sorry dude, not trying to be rude but I really don't see anything worth replying to in your post. Probably why I didn't reply to it when I first read it. {:)}{3GÇó>
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1702	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:48:00 - [96] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: KingBabar wrote: So OP, no comment about my post on page 4? you know, adresing the actual issue, not merely letting the numbers speak? Sorry dude, not trying to be rude but I really don't see anything worth replying to in your post. Probably why I didn't reply to it when I first read it. So this entire thread is as pointless as Your math? Lets look on the Math, and lets totally ignore the reality of Battlefield conditions. So this is a thread about a theoretical Balance or lack off it, it has nothing to do With actual Balance, gotcha. http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html
Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 3124	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:48:00 - [97] - Quote Rabble rabble rabble. The SCR touched me in a no no square. Rabble rabble rabble. Butthurt. Rabble rabble rabble. Trying to call the SCR op. I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1090	Posted - 2014.01.31 11:58:00 - [98] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: Rabble rabble rabble. The SCR touched me in a no no square. Rabble rabble rabble. Butthurt. Rabble rabble rabble. Trying to call the SCR op. Lol, butthurt. All I did was mathematically demonstrate an imbalance where I found it. Sound to me like you're the one who is butthurt. Maww, what's wong, you fraid the gonna take away your church. Poor baby. {:)}{3GÇó>
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1090	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:02:00 - [99] - Quote Also this has been stated before (page one I think) but I am proficiency 4 with the scrambler rifle. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 396	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:02:00 - [100] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Rabble rabble rabble. The SCR touched me in a no no square. Rabble rabble rabble. Butthurt. Rabble rabble rabble. Trying to call the SCR op. Lol, butthurt. All I did was mathematically demonstrate an imbalance where I found it. Sound to me like you're the one who is butthert. Maww, what's wong, you fraid the gonna take away your church. Poor baby. Please stop saying that, you didn't prove anything other than you barely understand mathematics. CR does way more damage than any other rifle (sans turbo) CR has a better damage profile than any other rifle CR is the easiiest to fit rifle CR has decent range (not the lowest by any means) CR does 30% more damage per trigger pull than the SCR. CR doesn't overheat. Finally, we have proven anyone who compares the SCR with another rifle using damage per clip is quite simply mentally handicapped. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.

TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2516	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:05:00 - [101] - Quote Wtb portal to Dalaraan. Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1090	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:06:00 - [102] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Rabble rabble rabble. The SCR touched me in a no no square. Rabble rabble rabble. Butthurt. Rabble rabble rabble. Trying to call the SCR op. Lol, butthurt. All I did was mathematically demonstrate an imbalance where I found it. Sound to me like you're the one who is butthert. Maww, what's wong, you fraid the gonna take away your church. Poor baby. Please stop saying that, you didn't prove anything other than you barely understand mathematics. CR does way more damage than any other rifle (sans turbo) CR has a better damage profile than any other rifle CR is the easiiest to fit rifle CR has decent range (not the lowest by any means) CR does 30% more damage per trigger pull than the SCR. CR doesn't overheat. Finally, we have proven anyone who compares the SCR with another rifle using damage per clip is quite simply mentally handicapped. Yap, just keep on flapping those lips. I got your number. Just wait for it. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 396	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:11:00 - [103] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Rabble rabble rabble. The SCR touched me in a no no square. Rabble rabble rabble. Butthurt. Rabble rabble rabble. Trying to call the SCR op. Lol, butthurt. All I did was mathematically demonstrate an imbalance where I found it. Sound to me like you're the one who is butthert. Maww, what's wong, you fraid the gonna take away your church. Poor baby. Please stop saying that, you didn't prove anything other than you barely understand mathematics. CR does way more damage than any other rifle (sans turbo) CR has a better damage profile than any other rifle CR is the easiiest to fit rifle CR has decent range (not the lowest by any means) CR does 30% more damage per trigger pull than the SCR. CR doesn't overheat. Finally, we have proven anyone who compares the SCR with another rifle using damage per clip is quite simply mentally handicapped. Yap, just keep on flapping those lips. I got your number. Just wait for it. Coming from the r3tard who won't even take free isk. Just STFU about balance until you get to at least pre-algebra kid. Your ineptitude with the most basic of mathematical computations is quite frankly astounding. I'd wager your an American. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 396	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:16:00 - [104] - Quote Refresh my memory... what drawbacks does the CR have again? Balanced damge types?? Weak against any type of tank?? no Low DPS? (ha, try the highest) Overheat? nope Hard to fit? nope Lets contrast that to the ScR Only normal damage profile (you know, only avergaed to 100%)? yep between 11-18 shots and then you are helpless for 5 seconds? yep Requires a specific suit with 2.4 mil sp to be truely effective? yep Hardest to fit rifle (almost hardest to fit weapon)? yep Lowest sustained DPS? yep Can kill the user? yep OH right, the ScR is just ridiculously overpowered. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1090	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:24:00 - [105] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Refresh my memory... what drawbacks does the CR have again? why don't you actually try reading the OP dip** Man I'm tired of your stupid bull** already. You are a complete @$$. {:)}{3GÇó>
Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 3124	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:26:00 - [106] - Quote Just stop feeding the troll everyone, eventually it'll die. I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 241	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:26:00 - [107] - Quote LOL there is no balance in this game, so lets jump in my tank.... doo doo doooooooo
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1091	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:40:00 - [108] - Quote The OP has been edited. {:)}{3GÇó>
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1091	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:41:00 - [109] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: Just stop feeding the troll everyone, eventually it'll die. Yah, who exactly are the trolls again? {:)}{3GÇó>
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 1705	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:48:00 - [110] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Refresh my memory... what drawbacks does the CR have again? Balanced damge types?? Weak against any type of tank?? no Low DPS? (ha, try the highest) Overheat? nope Hard to fit? nope Lets contrast that to the ScR Only normal damage profile (you know, only avergaed to 100%)? yep between 11-18 shots and then you are helpless for 5 seconds? yep Requires a specific suit with 2.4 mil sp to be truely effective? yep Hardest to fit rifle (almost hardest to fit weapon)? yep Lowest sustained DPS? yep Can kill the user? yep OH right, the ScR is just ridiculously overpowered. You forgot the difference in range and, the high alpha of the scr, and, ammo Count. The Scr out ranges the CR, so in those situations the Scr is God and the CR is useless. High alpha Equals dead enemies before they can get to cover, and this is not a smal thing, high alpha dps and protection are normally the 2 mst valuable stas for a slayer fitting. With my scrambler rifle Assault fit I can use either a Scanner or a Rephive or whatever, it never runs out of ammo. Same setup With a CR makes me dependant on carrying an enhanced nanohive or better. So for the same offensive capabilities i need either a Scr or a CR + Hive. So which ones of these are easiest ot fit? And you keep talking like the only possible use for the Scr is to fire Close to overheat and then wait for 5 Seconds. Thats very far from true. Mysalf and many experienced Scr players sort of "spreads out" Our fire, smal bursts that doesn't deplete the over heat. When in CQC against multiple opponets its a mater of switching between the Scr and a sidearm, I've mowd Down Squads doing just that. The way you foreward Your arguments leads me to think that the Scr isn't a gun for you. Its a sort of "gentlemans" weapon that takes a lot of skill to use well, but when wielded by the righ hands its among the best guns we have. I mostly use my CR these days, I'm a CQC player after all, but I'm still very glad I specced into the Scr, its still a beast of a gun. That you can't use it properly is entirely Your fault. I see Your Math, I agree on that part. I do not however agree at all that the CR is any kind of OP compared to the Scr. http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html

Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2141	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:48:00 - [111] - Quote INb4everyAmarrplayersaysDontTouchMyScrambler! Oh wait. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1092	Posted - 2014.01.31 12:54:00 - [112] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: INb4everyAmarrplayersaysDontTouchMyScrambler! Oh wait. Yah, way to late for that one. {:)}{3GÇó>
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 396	Posted - 2014.01.31 13:07:00 - [113] - Quote KingBabar wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Refresh my memory... what drawbacks does the CR have again? Balanced damge types?? Weak against any type of tank?? no Low DPS? (ha, try the highest) Overheat? nope Hard to fit? nope Lets contrast that to the ScR Only normal damage profile (you know, only avergaed to 100%)? yep between 11-18 shots and then you are helpless for 5 seconds? yep Requires a specific suit with 2.4 mil sp to be truely effective? yep Hardest to fit rifle (almost hardest to fit weapon)? yep Lowest sustained DPS? yep Can kill the user? yep OH right, the ScR is just ridiculously overpowered. You forgot the difference in range and, the high alpha of the scr, and, ammo Count. The Scr out ranges the CR, so in those situations the Scr is God and the CR is useless. High alpha Equals dead enemies before they can get to cover, and this is not a smal thing, high alpha dps and protection are normally the 2 most valuable stas for a slayer fitting. With my scrambler rifle Assault fit I can use either a Scanner or a Rephive or whatever, it never runs out of ammo. Same setup With a CR makes me dependant on carrying an enhanced nanohive or better. So for the same offensive capabilities i need either a Scr or a CR + Hive. So which ones of these are easiest ot fit? And you keep talking like the only possible use for the Scr is to fire Close to overheat and then wait for 5 Seconds. Thats very far from true. Mysalf and many experienced Scr players sort of "spreads out" Our fire, smal bursts that doesn't deplete the over heat. When in CQC against multiple opponets its a mater of switching between the Scr and a sidearm, I've mowd Down Squads doing just that. The way you foreward Your arguments leads me to think that the Scr isn't a gun for you. Its a sort of "gentlemans" weapon that takes a lot of skill to use well, but when wielded by the righ hands its among the best guns we have. I mostly use my CR these days, I'm a CQC player after all, but I'm still very glad I specced into the Scr, its still a beast of a gun. That you can't use it properly is entirely Your fault. I see Your Math, I agree on that part. I do not however agree at all that the CR is any kind of OP compared to the Scr. Trust me I fully understand how to properly use the SCR. IT doesn't change the fact that the overheating mechanism is a HUGE drawback for the weapon, one that the CR (or any other rifle bar the laser) doesn't have. Yes, you try to lead with a charged shot. If you are not using an amarrian assault suit, that leaves you with 9 additional shots before it overheats and you die. Yes I understand that you need to switch to a sidearm when you are about to overheat, but in the heat of battle that always doesn't happen, to say otherwise is to be lie. This is also another HUGE drawback that the CR doesn't have (need for a really good sidearm). Anyway, yes the ScR has a high alpha.... but how long after the first round does this advantage persist?5 trigger pulls... yep, after 5 trigger pulls After the charged shot, the high alpha has been mitigated and the ScR can NEVER catch back up or even compete with the CR in damage. Also, yes the CR has slightly less range than the ScR, and for this ONE weakness it has against the ScR, it get 30% more DPS. This does not hold true for the AR versus the CR. The AR actually does 425 DPS versus the 660 DPS of the CR, while having less range. There is no way you can analyze the CR without it coming out overpowered compared to the other weapons. Of course this entire thread is flawed. The OP just picks weapons randomly to compare (the RR, the ScR, the AR, and the assault CR?? already off to a bad start.) Then it picks a randomly chosen trigger squeeze parameter to judge the SCR with, then it ignores overheating, and of course complete ignores ranges and fittings. Why does the rail rifle do more damage than the AR? Why does the CR do more damage than any other rifle? Why does the CR get 102.5% efficiency? Why is the ScR really only great on one suit? You were right before when you said that the ScR and the CR serve completely different purposes. The ScR is a hit-and-run type of weapon without any staying power and has MAJOR drawbacks when trying to use it outside of this narrow window. The CR is a more controlled spray and prey weapon that is more damaging and effective in CqC than the rifle with the shortest range. The RR, after a 0.25 s pre-fire, is actually better at CQC than the AR... The rifle balance is incredibly messed up, but the ScR, a weapon that hasn't been changed in forever, isn't the culprit here. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1093	Posted - 2014.01.31 13:51:00 - [114] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Of course this entire thread is flawed. The OP just picks weapons randomly to compare (the RR, the ScR, the AR, and the assault CR?? already off to a bad start.) Then it picks a randomly chosen trigger squeeze parameter to judge the SCR with, then it ignores overheating, and of course complete ignores ranges and fittings. It is not possible to calculate the time it takes to output 600 damage with a vanilla CR without knowing the refire delay interval. One thing that do know for sure, is that there is one, because if there wasn't and you where able to achieve the 1200 RoF. then the damage for the Vanilla CR would be around 23.2 (like the ACR) not 35.2. This is why there is such a difference in damage output between the two variants. And my RoF was not "randomly chosen". It was very specifically chosen, and the reason why it was chosen was thoroughly explained. As well, all weapons were considered to be functioning within their optimal, so range was not a factor. But if you want to talk about range the ScR has the second longest range of the four. Also overheat was not a factor, because the ScR will not overheat before it outputs 600 damage. Overheating at 19 rounds (tested and will hopefully be demonstrated tomorrow) is no excuse to give the ScR a > .3 second drop on payload delivery over every other rifle. How hard is this stuff to comprehend? Apparently really difficult. {:)}{3GÇó>
Hoover Damn H.A.R.V.E.S.T. Legacy Rising 39	Posted - 2014.01.31 13:56:00 - [115] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. You mean like assuming that every scrambler rifle is fired by a champion revolver quickshooter?
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1093	Posted - 2014.01.31 14:00:00 - [116] - Quote Just did the math for payload delivery on the vanilla CR, using the time to fire through a complete mag, that I used a stop watch to get just a little while ago (4.1 seconds). It will deliver 600 damage in 1.26183712 seconds. {:)}{3GÇó>
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1093	Posted - 2014.01.31 14:03:00 - [117] - Quote Hoover Damn wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. You mean like assuming that every scrambler rifle is fired by a champion revolver quickshooter? No because the RoF I used was significantly lower than his. His was around 510 I used 480. {:)}{3GÇó>
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1111	Posted - 2014.01.31 14:10:00 - [118] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I activate my tunnelvision scrub mode because I need to defend my crutch this guy never used the CR and has zero credibility. he does not even know that the CR has a very short delay between each burst. first, pressing the button as fast as possible does nothing because you cant fire another burst when the weapon is still firing. second, anyone that uses the CR most likely already realized that there is a very short delay between each burst and if you tap your button fast & uncontrollable you will hit the exact moment where the delay kicks in and you will in the end fire slower because your next button press happens some ms later. if you want to max out CR dps, you need to tap your fire button in the perfect rythm.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1093	Posted - 2014.01.31 14:22:00 - [119] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: People emptying the CR in 3 seconds or less Here unfortunately this was about 5 seconds. using watches and counting is too hard for you and you want to discuss and analyze numbers? Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I activate my tunnelvision scrub mode because I need to defend my crutch this guy never used the CR and has zero credibility. he does not even know that the CR has a very short delay between each burst. first, pressing the button as fast as possible does nothing because you cant fire another burst when the weapon is still firing. second, anyone that uses the CR most likely already realized that there is a very short delay between each burst and if you tap your button fast & uncontrollable you will hit the exact moment where the delay kicks in and you will in the end fire slower because your next button press happens some ms later. if you want to max out CR dps, you need to tap your fire button in the perfect rythm. Thank you. At least somebody is paying attention. {:)}{3GÇó>
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1508	Posted - 2014.01.31 14:48:00 - [120] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Kingseeker Kobra wrote: Cant take on multiple people with the SCR overheating during a fight is almost a guaranteed death Good luck killing a tanked out heavy before you overheat Otherwise yes it will tear you apart if they're up close, you're alone, and they land most of their shots. The proto ScR is capable of outputting 1,742.3094 damage before overheat (with pro 5 and two damage mods; a common enough thing). So I think that that qualifies it to be classed a weapon capable of taking on multiple targets simultaneously. And with it having the lowest TTK out of all the rifles by an extreme margin, I would say that my classing it as imbalanced/OP is acurate. Shakes his head who do you guys think you are trying to fool here? I use th damned thing. I am prof 4 with it. When i first rolled an Ammarian alt my second pub match out of academy i went 19-0 with the standard scrambler rifle on a lvl 1 logi suit... It was definitely a shock after running exclusively with the AR for more than a year. I support SP rollover.

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1540	Posted - 2014.01.31 15:32:00 - [121] - Quote +1 for the solid analysis with reasonable assumptions, Son-of-a-Gun. You've clearly shown what the damage envelopes for these weapons are. KingBabar you have a solid point wrt battlefield realities and tactics, but the proper order of analysis is Son-of-a-Gun's: Define empirical limits for the weapons and then account for environmental & user based modifications to these limits. In the hands of a solid player, we can expect all of these weapons to perform close to their theoretical limits, which is what makes the original calculation(clearly explained and with all assumption empirically justified) important. I support SP rollover.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1944	Posted - 2014.02.07 12:44:00 - [122] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: +1 for science, sir. I believe these are reasonable suggestions. Honestly, DUST's devs should talk to the EVE devs more. It took the EVE guys a while to realize a gun can't both have equal/superior DPS and superior range and be balanced. Pass that knowledge on to your coworkers, CCP dudes. smack THIS IS A SHOOTER! NOT A POINT AND CLICK MMO! GUNS THAT REQUIRE MORE SKILL GET MORE DPS! THIS IS HOW SHOOTERS HAVE ALWAYS WORKED! NOT EVERYTHING TRANSLATES WELL FROM EVE TO DUST! In EVE every single turret is just as easy to use as every other turret, this makes balancing them easy and their DPS is a direct result of their range because of this. In a shooter, you have to consider player skill. When a weapon is harder to use, it gets a faster TTK as a reward for using a more challenging weapon. You can look at many balanced shooters and see this pattern. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire MAG ~ Seryi Volk Executive Response
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 397	Posted - 2014.02.07 13:40:00 - [123] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. You forgot so many factor.... Okay ONE : - SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY. TWO : - SCR takes 20PG/92CPU it's 1/5 of a Proto Suit. => No way to reduce it exept with weaponery skills bringing it to 16PG. -CR only takes 8 PG/80cpu which is..NOTHING and the CPU cost can be highly reduced by 3/4 skills cutting it by half. -RR takes 17PG and 84CPU same than SCR. -AR takes 13PG/90CPU pretty balanced. THREE : Overheat so your "maths" is wrong actually you CANT achieve a high damage output without being stuck for 6 sec. It needs accuracy because if you miss some bullet you're DEAD because you can't reach the ennemy ehp without overheat. FOUR : 8 shots per second is actually impossible without missing at least 2-3 shots. And even without missing 8shots/s is impossible or your "sec" is more 3/4sec..... FIVE : You didn't take into account accuracy/spread and Headshot factor. When a CR makes a headshot it's actually 3 headshot. ACR is even more. Same for AR because of the high RoF. When a SCR deals a Headshot it's only one and the SCR have more recoil than other weapon to dealing an another headshot will be hard if the target is not lethargic. etcetc.....
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1134	Posted - 2014.02.07 13:53:00 - [124] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. You forgot so many factor.... Okay ONE : - SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY. TWO : - SCR takes 20PG/92CPU it's 1/5 of a Proto Suit. => No way to reduce it exept with weaponery skills bringing it to 16PG. -CR only takes 8 PG/80cpu which is..NOTHING and the CPU cost can be highly reduced by 3/4 skills cutting it by half. -RR takes 17PG and 84CPU same than SCR. -AR takes 13PG/90CPU pretty balanced. THREE : Overheat so your "maths" is wrong actually you CANT achieve a high damage output without being stuck for 6 sec. It needs accuracy because if you miss some bullet you're DEAD because you can't reach the ennemy ehp without overheat. FOUR : 8 shots per second is actually impossible without missing at least 2-3 shots. And even without missing 8shots/s is impossible or your "sec" is more 3/4sec..... FIVE : You didn't take into account accuracy/spread and Headshot factor. When a CR makes a headshot it's actually 3 headshot. ACR is even more. Same for AR because of the high RoF. When a SCR deals a Headshot it's only one and the SCR have more recoil than other weapon to dealing an another headshot will be hard if the target is not lethargic. etcetc..... "- SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY." Did make it past that, since it is very obvious that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Also, if you can't understand the relevance of the factors that were and were not taken into account, I cannot help you. Try reading the whole thread or at the very top of this page there was an excellent post concerning this. {:)}{3GÇó>
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 400	Posted - 2014.02.07 14:18:00 - [125] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. You forgot so many factor.... Okay ONE : - SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY. TWO : - SCR takes 20PG/92CPU it's 1/5 of a Proto Suit. => No way to reduce it exept with weaponery skills bringing it to 16PG. -CR only takes 8 PG/80cpu which is..NOTHING and the CPU cost can be highly reduced by 3/4 skills cutting it by half. -RR takes 17PG and 84CPU same than SCR. -AR takes 13PG/90CPU pretty balanced. THREE : Overheat so your "maths" is wrong actually you CANT achieve a high damage output without being stuck for 6 sec. It needs accuracy because if you miss some bullet you're DEAD because you can't reach the ennemy ehp without overheat. FOUR : 8 shots per second is actually impossible without missing at least 2-3 shots. And even without missing 8shots/s is impossible or your "sec" is more 3/4sec..... FIVE : You didn't take into account accuracy/spread and Headshot factor. When a CR makes a headshot it's actually 3 headshot. ACR is even more. Same for AR because of the high RoF. When a SCR deals a Headshot it's only one and the SCR have more recoil than other weapon to dealing an another headshot will be hard if the target is not lethargic. etcetc..... "- SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY." Didn't make it past that, since it is very obvious that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Also, if you can't understand the relevance of the factors that were and were not taken into account, I cannot help you. Try reading the whole thread or at the very top of this page there was an excellent post concerning this. YOU don't understand how to use your numbers not my fault. Have you taken into account that some weapons takes so much PG/CPU they can't fit damager while some can fit LOT of damagers because the weapon takes less PG/CPU. Have you take into account the clip size ? Reload time ? Accuracy ? It changes EVERYTHING. Per example a 7.62 bullet deal more damage. So if we listen you it's the best ammo. BUT you forgot LOOOOT of things. It makes the weapon have al ot of recoil. Low accuracy Making the 5.45 and 5.56 better than a 7.62 for 80% of weapon. As is said before you take * RANNNNNNDOM NUMBEEEEEEERS*
Avinash Decker Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2014.02.12 12:26:00 - [126] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Just did the math for payload delivery on the vanilla CR, using the time to fire through a complete mag, that I used a stop watch to get just a little while ago (4.1 seconds). It will deliver 600 damage in 1.26183712 seconds. Do you know the average player total health ? And what is it for 300, 400 , 500 , etc health? Here are kill times from other games to get you thinking . http://symthic.com/ , and http://www.flickr.com/photos/72139949@N05/8969600798/sizes/o/ . The TTK must be really fast to people how has about 200 -500 health .
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3428	Posted - 2014.02.12 14:10:00 - [127] - Quote The only real issue with the Scrambler imho (and this plays into modded controllers I suppose) is the iffy way that heat is generated. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1197	Posted - 2014.02.12 14:11:00 - [128] - Quote Avinash Decker wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Just did the math for payload delivery on the vanilla CR, using the time to fire through a complete mag, that I used a stop watch to get just a little while ago (4.1 seconds). It will deliver 600 damage in 1.26183712 seconds. Do you know the average player total health ? And what is it for 300, 400 , 500 , etc health? Such calculations are quite simple to make: 500/600 = 5/6 of 1.26183712 400/600 = 2/3 of 1.26183712 300/600 = 1/2 of 1.26183712 200/600 = 1/3 of 1.26183712 I'll leave the rest up to you. You do know how calculate fractions right. If your used to the metric system or something just let me know and I'll work it out for you. {:)}{3GÇó>
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 205	Posted - 2014.02.12 14:36:00 - [129] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: The only real issue with the Scrambler imho (and this plays into modded controllers I suppose) is the iffy way that heat is generated. Pretty much. If the heat was properly per-shot, then there would be no incentive to "fire faster" or spam shots within a window because firing faster would mean "gun overheats quicker". The same is true of the Assault Scram. It nominally has a heat factor now, but in practice you have to try to overheat it even on non-Amarr-Ass suits. If it was properly adjusted to generate heat per shot as well (which would probably require damage or heat gen adjustments at the same time), then it would be more fitting for a race stressing risk-vs.-reward, timing, and heat management. It would make the racial bonus more meaningful since it would apply to more Amarr weapons as well. Changing the RoF or damage is silly and a pointless math-circlejerk in context. Make it so performing an action that generates heat - FASTER - makes you overheat QUICKER. That's how it should've been in the first place if they hadn't done the lazy copy-pasta of the Laser Rifle heat mechanic over to the Scrambler.


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