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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
1540
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Posted - 2014.01.31 15:32:00 -
[121] - Quote
+1 for the solid analysis with reasonable assumptions, Son-of-a-Gun. You've clearly shown what the damage envelopes for these weapons are.
KingBabar you have a solid point wrt battlefield realities and tactics, but the proper order of analysis is Son-of-a-Gun's: Define empirical limits for the weapons and then account for environmental & user based modifications to these limits.
In the hands of a solid player, we can expect all of these weapons to perform close to their theoretical limits, which is what makes the original calculation(clearly explained and with all assumption empirically justified) important.
I support SP rollover.
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1944
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Posted - 2014.02.07 12:44:00 -
[122] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:+1 for science, sir. I believe these are reasonable suggestions.
Honestly, DUST's devs should talk to the EVE devs more. It took the EVE guys a while to realize a gun can't both have equal/superior DPS and superior range and be balanced.
Pass that knowledge on to your coworkers, CCP dudes.
*smack*
THIS IS A SHOOTER! NOT A POINT AND CLICK MMO!
GUNS THAT REQUIRE MORE SKILL GET MORE DPS! THIS IS HOW SHOOTERS HAVE ALWAYS WORKED!
NOT EVERYTHING TRANSLATES WELL FROM EVE TO DUST! In EVE every single turret is just as easy to use as every other turret, this makes balancing them easy and their DPS is a direct result of their range because of this.
In a shooter, you have to consider player skill. When a weapon is harder to use, it gets a faster TTK as a reward for using a more challenging weapon.
You can look at many balanced shooters and see this pattern.
Yours Truly,
Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
MAG ~ Seryi Volk Executive Response
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
397
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Posted - 2014.02.07 13:40:00 -
[123] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Aisha Ctarl wrote:Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP.
You forgot so many factor....
Okay ONE :
- SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies.
-CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY.
TWO :
- SCR takes 20PG/92CPU it's 1/5 of a Proto Suit. => No way to reduce it exept with weaponery skills bringing it to 16PG.
-CR only takes 8 PG/80cpu which is..NOTHING and the CPU cost can be highly reduced by 3/4 skills cutting it by half.
-RR takes 17PG and 84CPU same than SCR.
-AR takes 13PG/90CPU pretty balanced.
THREE :
Overheat so your "maths" is wrong actually you CANT achieve a high damage output without being stuck for 6 sec.
It needs accuracy because if you miss some bullet you're DEAD because you can't reach the ennemy ehp without overheat.
FOUR : 8 shots per second is actually impossible without missing at least 2-3 shots.
And even without missing 8shots/s is impossible or your "sec" is more 3/4sec.....
FIVE : You didn't take into account accuracy/spread and Headshot factor.
When a CR makes a headshot it's actually 3 headshot. ACR is even more.
Same for AR because of the high RoF.
When a SCR deals a Headshot it's only one and the SCR have more recoil than other weapon to dealing an another headshot will be hard if the target is not lethargic.
etcetc..... |
Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1134
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Posted - 2014.02.07 13:53:00 -
[124] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Aisha Ctarl wrote:Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. You forgot so many factor.... Okay ONE : - SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY. TWO : - SCR takes 20PG/92CPU it's 1/5 of a Proto Suit. => No way to reduce it exept with weaponery skills bringing it to 16PG. -CR only takes 8 PG/80cpu which is..NOTHING and the CPU cost can be highly reduced by 3/4 skills cutting it by half. -RR takes 17PG and 84CPU same than SCR. -AR takes 13PG/90CPU pretty balanced. THREE : Overheat so your "maths" is wrong actually you CANT achieve a high damage output without being stuck for 6 sec. It needs accuracy because if you miss some bullet you're DEAD because you can't reach the ennemy ehp without overheat. FOUR : 8 shots per second is actually impossible without missing at least 2-3 shots. And even without missing 8shots/s is impossible or your "sec" is more 3/4sec..... FIVE : You didn't take into account accuracy/spread and Headshot factor. When a CR makes a headshot it's actually 3 headshot. ACR is even more. Same for AR because of the high RoF. When a SCR deals a Headshot it's only one and the SCR have more recoil than other weapon to dealing an another headshot will be hard if the target is not lethargic. etcetc.....
"- SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies.
-CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY."
Did make it past that, since it is very obvious that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Also, if you can't understand the relevance of the factors that were and were not taken into account, I cannot help you. Try reading the whole thread or at the very top of this page there was an excellent post concerning this.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
400
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Posted - 2014.02.07 14:18:00 -
[125] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Mordecai Sanguine wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Aisha Ctarl wrote:Blah blah blah, math math math, oh wait, the SCR is weak against armor - only 80% effective -did you take that into account with your mathematics there chief? He didn't take into account -anything- other than what he was focusing on. Haters Gona hate. I took into account everything that was necessary. You can prove me wrong by presenting relevant factors that Were not in the OP. You forgot so many factor.... Okay ONE : - SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY. TWO : - SCR takes 20PG/92CPU it's 1/5 of a Proto Suit. => No way to reduce it exept with weaponery skills bringing it to 16PG. -CR only takes 8 PG/80cpu which is..NOTHING and the CPU cost can be highly reduced by 3/4 skills cutting it by half. -RR takes 17PG and 84CPU same than SCR. -AR takes 13PG/90CPU pretty balanced. THREE : Overheat so your "maths" is wrong actually you CANT achieve a high damage output without being stuck for 6 sec. It needs accuracy because if you miss some bullet you're DEAD because you can't reach the ennemy ehp without overheat. FOUR : 8 shots per second is actually impossible without missing at least 2-3 shots. And even without missing 8shots/s is impossible or your "sec" is more 3/4sec..... FIVE : You didn't take into account accuracy/spread and Headshot factor. When a CR makes a headshot it's actually 3 headshot. ACR is even more. Same for AR because of the high RoF. When a SCR deals a Headshot it's only one and the SCR have more recoil than other weapon to dealing an another headshot will be hard if the target is not lethargic. etcetc..... "- SCR and AR have 10% penality on Armor. Which means it's (almost) a 10% permanent nerf to all ennemies. -CR and RR have 10% BONUS which means it's (almost) a free complex damager against EVERYBODY." Didn't make it past that, since it is very obvious that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Also, if you can't understand the relevance of the factors that were and were not taken into account, I cannot help you. Try reading the whole thread or at the very top of this page there was an excellent post concerning this.
YOU don't understand how to use your numbers not my fault.
Have you taken into account that some weapons takes so much PG/CPU they can't fit damager while some can fit LOT of damagers because the weapon takes less PG/CPU.
Have you take into account the clip size ? Reload time ? Accuracy ?
It changes EVERYTHING.
Per example a 7.62 bullet deal more damage.
So if we listen you it's the best ammo.
BUT you forgot LOOOOT of things.
It makes the weapon have al ot of recoil.
Low accuracy
Making the 5.45 and 5.56 better than a 7.62 for 80% of weapon.
As is said before you take * RANNNNNNDOM NUMBEEEEEEERS*
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Avinash Decker
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2014.02.12 12:26:00 -
[126] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Just did the math for payload delivery on the vanilla CR, using the time to fire through a complete mag, that I used a stop watch to get just a little while ago (4.1 seconds).
It will deliver 600 damage in 1.26183712 seconds.
Do you know the average player total health ? And what is it for 300, 400 , 500 , etc health?
Here are kill times from other games to get you thinking . http://symthic.com/ , and http://www.flickr.com/photos/72139949@N05/8969600798/sizes/o/ . The TTK must be really fast to people how has about 200 -500 health .
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3428
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Posted - 2014.02.12 14:10:00 -
[127] - Quote
The only real issue with the Scrambler imho (and this plays into modded controllers I suppose) is the iffy way that heat is generated.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1197
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Posted - 2014.02.12 14:11:00 -
[128] - Quote
Avinash Decker wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Just did the math for payload delivery on the vanilla CR, using the time to fire through a complete mag, that I used a stop watch to get just a little while ago (4.1 seconds).
It will deliver 600 damage in 1.26183712 seconds. Do you know the average player total health ? And what is it for 300, 400 , 500 , etc health?
Such calculations are quite simple to make:
500/600 = 5/6 of 1.26183712
400/600 = 2/3 of 1.26183712
300/600 = 1/2 of 1.26183712
200/600 = 1/3 of 1.26183712
I'll leave the rest up to you. You do know how calculate fractions right. If your used to the metric system or something just let me know and I'll work it out for you.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
205
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Posted - 2014.02.12 14:36:00 -
[129] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:The only real issue with the Scrambler imho (and this plays into modded controllers I suppose) is the iffy way that heat is generated.
Pretty much. If the heat was properly per-shot, then there would be no incentive to "fire faster" or spam shots within a window because firing faster would mean "gun overheats quicker".
The same is true of the Assault Scram. It nominally has a heat factor now, but in practice you have to try to overheat it even on non-Amarr-Ass suits. If it was properly adjusted to generate heat per shot as well (which would probably require damage or heat gen adjustments at the same time), then it would be more fitting for a race stressing risk-vs.-reward, timing, and heat management. It would make the racial bonus more meaningful since it would apply to more Amarr weapons as well.
Changing the RoF or damage is silly and a pointless math-circlejerk in context. Make it so performing an action that generates heat - FASTER - makes you overheat QUICKER. That's how it should've been in the first place if they hadn't done the lazy copy-pasta of the Laser Rifle heat mechanic over to the Scrambler. |
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