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Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 912	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:06:00 - [1] - Quote I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Mortedeamor Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1015	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:08:00 - [2] - Quote as someone who waited for balance for over a year and a half now i stopped caring
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 915	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:10:00 - [3] - Quote I moved this here because the other thread is doomed to obscurity. I hope to have a les biased discussion. The cycle will begin anew and we will be doomed to imbalance. If we cover a few issues we can take advantage of the progress that has been made. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME 1016	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:14:00 - [4] - Quote i wouldn't have a problem not being able to kill tanks if the it was the same the other way around. my biggest problem is the fact that a tank can kill ANYTHING with ease while infantry have to use all this"teamwork" to take out one tank that costs less than less than a proto scout suit. no matter how you look at it, that is WRONG and needs to be fixed. infantry can be killed by ANYTHING easily while there are only 4-5 weapons that can harm a tank, even if the tanker has ZERO sp into tanks. most of what you're saying is actually true, or at least i believe it. but to be honest, i would rather deal with good tankers than this tank fest we have now. Tell me, how exactly DOES a biscuit gain Valor?
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 9169	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:15:00 - [5] - Quote Why make a duplicate thread? Vids / O7
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 915	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:16:00 - [6] - Quote TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: i wouldn't have a problem not being able to kill tanks if the it was the same the other way around. my biggest problem is the fact that a tank can kill ANYTHING with ease while infantry have to use all this"teamwork" to take out one tank that costs less than less than a proto scout suit. no matter how you look at it, that is WRONG and needs to be fixed. infantry can be killed by ANYTHING easily while there are only 4-5 weapons that can harm a tank, even if the tanker has ZERO sp into tanks. most of what you're saying is actually true, or at least i believe it. but to be honest, i would rather deal with good tankers than this tank fest we have now. we will get to that. I hope they poke their head in here. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
8213 BIG BAD W0LVES 1122	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:17:00 - [7] - Quote Some tankers have become delusional in 1.7... Maybe the answer is Miltia AV? Because everyone can use a tank with no investment, but requires investment still. And when tanks finally getting dialed back, we can then focus on the HMG being OP again...
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 915	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:17:00 - [8] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Why make a duplicate thread? if you can't read I can't help you Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 9169	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:19:00 - [9] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why make a duplicate thread? if you can't read I can't help you You're ********. I obviously read it if I knew it was a duplicate thread L2logic Vids / O7
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 255	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:27:00 - [10] - Quote Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point. A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point.

Toxxikcity Trans Worlds Operations League of Infamy 23	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:31:00 - [11] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I moved this here because the other thread is doomed to obscurity. I hope to have a les biased discussion. The cycle will begin anew and we will be doomed to imbalance. If we cover a few issues we can take advantage of the progress that has been made. What progress... the only thing i've seen is regression
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 916	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:34:00 - [12] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point. A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point. multi layered maps could be great for infantry fighting infantry too. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 916	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:36:00 - [13] - Quote Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I moved this here because the other thread is doomed to obscurity. I hope to have a les biased discussion. The cycle will begin anew and we will be doomed to imbalance. If we cover a few issues we can take advantage of the progress that has been made. What progress... the only thing i've seen is regression explain this. Your argument supports the death of the Nerf cycle. This would make a great game Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 643	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:39:00 - [14] - Quote A militia tank should be slightly stronger than Militia AV or standard AV. Gives the sense of competition and achievement. A tanker spends a lot of SP, so does a proper AV user. So if a Proto AV user can't even fight a MLT tank, What are they supposed to when 2-3 decent tanks show up?! First it's the Forge gun. I know most were using it as an anti infantry weapon. But now it's not as great against Vehicles either. Proto Swarm nerfed to half of it's capabilities. If it was MLT, STD or ADV i would understand. But Even with Proto AVs with Prof 5 and some, i can barely keep up with Sicas and Somas.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 340	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:40:00 - [15] - Quote I think the problem is not tanks, but the number of them that can be deployed at once. AV dealing with two tanks is manageable. 5-6, not so much. The price increase makes spamming then much less profitable, and those who do spam them will quickly lose the isk to do so. Tanks should be powerful, but also costly if destroyed. Nerfing tanks, especially nerfing their modules, nerfs LAVs and drop ships too. You can't make a vehicle vs AV thread and talk only about tanks. Thats like making a infantry balance thread and not talking about heavies and light suits.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 917	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:43:00 - [16] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: A militia tank should be slightly stronger than Militia AV or standard AV. Gives the sense of competition and achievement. A tanker spends a lot of SP, so does a proper AV user. So if a Proto AV user can't even fight a MLT tank, What are they supposed to when 2-3 decent tanks show up?! First it's the Forge gun. I know most were using it as an anti infantry weapon. But now it's not as great against Vehicles either. Proto Swarm nerfed to half of it's capabilities. If it was MLT, STD or ADV i would understand. But Even with Proto AVs with Prof 5 and some, i can barely keep up with Sicas and Somas. I find myself pulling out a tank instead of my forge. Its cheaper and more effective. It is also causing people distress. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Yelhsa Jin-Mao PROTO RETRIBUTION 227	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:44:00 - [17] - Quote Remove Blaster Turrets from the main turret slot for tanks and have them reserved for the passenger turret slots only. INSTANT FIX. I can has ISK
Toxxikcity Trans Worlds Operations League of Infamy 23	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:46:00 - [18] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I moved this here because the other thread is doomed to obscurity. I hope to have a les biased discussion. The cycle will begin anew and we will be doomed to imbalance. If we cover a few issues we can take advantage of the progress that has been made. What progress... the only thing i've seen is regression explain this. Your argument supports the death of the Nerf cycle. This would make a great game As i have said in other posts... the balance was fine in 1.6, i ran a proto AV fit and alone could only manage to hold back a proto fit tank proto V proto = balance. My proto AV fit V militia tank = no contest. Proto fit tank V militia or advanced AV = no contest.... now we're back to 1.3 tank indestructability ie regression
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 917	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:46:00 - [19] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the problem is not tanks, but the number of them that can be deployed at once. AV dealing with two tanks is manageable. 5-6, not so much. The price increase makes spamming then much less profitable, and those who do spam them will quickly lose the isk to do so. Tanks should be powerful, but also costly if destroyed. Nerfing tanks, especially nerfing their modules, nerfs LAVs and drop ships too. You can't make a vehicle vs AV thread and talk only about tanks. Thats like making a infantry balance thread and not talking about heavies and light suits. agreed. There are overlooked aspects of AV/V which need attention too. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 643	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:49:00 - [20] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the problem is not tanks, but the number of them that can be deployed at once. AV dealing with two tanks is manageable. 5-6, not so much. The price increase makes spamming then much less profitable, and those who do spam them will quickly lose the isk to do so. Tanks should be powerful, but also costly if destroyed. Nerfing tanks, especially nerfing their modules, nerfs LAVs and drop ships too. You can't make a vehicle vs AV thread and talk only about tanks. Thats like making a infantry balance thread and not talking about heavies and light suits. agreed. There are overlooked aspects of AV/V which need attention too. Can't nerf one and buff the other. Beats the purpose of balancing. Becomes one sided

Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 920	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:49:00 - [21] - Quote Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I moved this here because the other thread is doomed to obscurity. I hope to have a les biased discussion. The cycle will begin anew and we will be doomed to imbalance. If we cover a few issues we can take advantage of the progress that has been made. What progress... the only thing i've seen is regression explain this. Your argument supports the death of the Nerf cycle. This would make a great game As i have said in other posts... the balance was fine in 1.6, i ran a proto AV fit and alone could only manage to hold back a proto fit tank proto V proto = balance. My proto AV fit V militia tank = no contest. Proto fit tank V militia or advanced AV = no contest.... now we're back to 1.3 tank indestructability ie regression careful here. This is a sensitive subject. I used all forms of AV in 1.6. And I tanked. Swarms were stupidly OP when coupled with rendering issues. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1928	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:51:00 - [22] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? We will not be able to effectively examine the balance between dedicated AV and dedicated tankers until this Militia tank spam is cleared up. Right now the Tanks often have the advantage of numbers on top of their other advantages. I donGÇÖt think Militia tanks should be nerfed, at least not at this stage, beyond taking away things that can be added back in with skills. I donGÇÖt think we should look at increasing the price too much yet either. At least not yet. The fist priority is to bring back the skill distinction between dedicated pilots and people who have no skill points invested in vehicles. This would also mean that an expensive fitted tank, called in by a tanker, would not be nearly as effective in the hands of a non tanker. That and a bit of a Swarm Launcher buff should clear up the non-pilot tank spam. Then we could look at AV/Tank balance without all the clutter. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Cosgar ParagonX 8891	Posted - 2013.12.19 17:57:00 - [23] - Quote ITT: People that don't remember the Segaris and Surya. These tanks are pushovers compared to those. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1928	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:01:00 - [24] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Why make a duplicate thread? Because there was too much reasonable and considered discussion in the original thread. By starting the thread with a butt-hurt post he gets drama and excitement. If anyone wants to join a reasoned discussion were both dedicated tankers and dedicated AV are having a civil and considered discussion, here is a link. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 920	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:02:00 - [25] - Quote Cosgar wrote: ITT: People that don't remember the Segaris and Surya. These tanks are pushovers compared to those. it took a team of coordinated Av to bring one down. The other 4 were slaughtering infantry. Its like now but magnified exponentially. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1929	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:09:00 - [26] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: careful here. This is a sensitive subject. I used all forms of AV in 1.6. And I tanked. Swarms were stupidly OP when coupled with rendering issues. This could have easily been fixed by adding GÇ£LockingGÇ¥, GÇ£LockGÇ¥, and GÇ£Missiles InboundGÇ¥ warnings for vehicles. Could have been an icon on the HUD that starts blinking Yellow when someone is attempting to lock you, starts blinking Orange when you are locked, and starts blinking Red when missals have been fired. Accompany it will an audio warning. Then rendering issues would have not mattered when it came to the missals. Now the fact that the infantry did not render would still have been a problem, but at least you would have had warning before the first missal hit. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1929	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:15:00 - [27] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: A militia tank should be slightly stronger than Militia AV or standard AV. Gives the sense of competition and achievement. A tanker spends a lot of SP, so does a proper AV user. So if a Proto AV user can't even fight a MLT tank, What are they supposed to when 2-3 decent tanks show up?! First it's the Forge gun. I know most were using it as an anti infantry weapon. But now it's not as great against Vehicles either. Proto Swarm nerfed to half of it's capabilities. If it was MLT, STD or ADV i would understand. But Even with Proto AVs with Prof 5 and some, i can barely keep up with Sicas and Somas. It is not price or numbers. It is the fact that you donGÇÖt have to be skilled into vehicles to be effective in tanks. The answer is to nerf health by 25% and have the Shield and Armour skills bring it back 5% at a time, so that a dedicated pilot is 25% better than someone with no vehicle skills across the board. This would reduce the numbers in most matches, provided the AV were strong enough to make the no skill tankers easy pickings. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 920	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:15:00 - [28] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: careful here. This is a sensitive subject. I used all forms of AV in 1.6. And I tanked. Swarms were stupidly OP when coupled with rendering issues. This could have easily been fixed by adding GÇ£LockingGÇ¥, GÇ£LockGÇ¥, and GÇ£Missiles InboundGÇ¥ warnings for vehicles. Could have been an icon on the HUD that starts blinking Yellow when someone is attempting to lock you, starts blinking Orange when you are locked, and starts blinking Red when missals have been fired. Accompany it will an audio warning. Then rendering issues would have not mattered when it came to the missals. Now the fact that the infantry did not render would still have been a problem, but at least you would have had warning before the first missal hit. excellent idea. It would make the game more immersive too. I would like some counter measures implemented too. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Toxxikcity Trans Worlds Operations League of Infamy 23	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:17:00 - [29] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I moved this here because the other thread is doomed to obscurity. I hope to have a les biased discussion. The cycle will begin anew and we will be doomed to imbalance. If we cover a few issues we can take advantage of the progress that has been made. What progress... the only thing i've seen is regression explain this. Your argument supports the death of the Nerf cycle. This would make a great game As i have said in other posts... the balance was fine in 1.6, i ran a proto AV fit and alone could only manage to hold back a proto fit tank proto V proto = balance. My proto AV fit V militia tank = no contest. Proto fit tank V militia or advanced AV = no contest.... now we're back to 1.3 tank indestructability ie regression careful here. This is a sensitive subject. I used all forms of AV in 1.6. And I tanked. Swarms were stupidly OP when coupled with rendering issues. And i stand by what i've said... my first line states 'i ran a proto AV fit AND ALONE could only manage to HOLD BACK a proto fit tank' (this included 2 complex damage mods) it still took more than one of us to kill the said tank before he could retreat
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 921	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:28:00 - [30] - Quote Saying "I was OP, but now I'm not, so make me OP again" is not what we are trying to accomplish here. That is also short sighted. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.

Toxxikcity Trans Worlds Operations League of Infamy 23	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:38:00 - [31] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Saying "I was OP, but now I'm not, so make me OP again" is not what we are trying to accomplish here. That is also short sighted. I never said i was OP... once again please READ what i wrote, it was BALANCED proto V proto
HiddenBrother Days of Ruin 22	Posted - 2013.12.19 18:53:00 - [32] - Quote 8213 wrote: And when tanks finally getting dialed back, we can then focus on the HMG being OP again... HMG being OP again? Looks like something besides a combat rifle killed you! Better nerf it again! lol Ruin.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1999	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:04:00 - [33] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? 1. MLT goes up, STD goes up 2. You nerf MLT tanks AV has it easier to take out, also your lying AV can counter tanks effectively, its called anti-vehicle for a reason and im still seeing AV kill tanks, the problem is with the players behind the trigger 3. Each other and infantry 4. 13 guys - the same 3 AV guys will go through each tank until they are all dead, only idiot AV wont do this and thus cries about it taking 15ppl to kill 5 tanks 5. DUST has no smoke machines 6. 1 rail tank, 2 for lolz, 3 because why not 7. lol pub matches, use AV or group up with competant players but pub matches are always unbalanced anyways Intelligence is OP
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 922	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:07:00 - [34] - Quote Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Saying "I was OP, but now I'm not, so make me OP again" is not what we are trying to accomplish here. That is also short sighted. I never said i was OP... once again please READ what i wrote, it was BALANCED proto V proto I'm didn't want to have to call you out. In fact I tried to avoid it. Swarms were easy mode in 1.6. If you are trying to defend that you should leave. We are trying to have an objective conversation. Opinions are like ass holes we all have them and they all stink. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 332	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:19:00 - [35] - Quote The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 924	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:27:00 - [36] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage something like this could help. I am against dropping the hp or CPU/PG of tanks though.they just reworked tanks. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Stinker Butt Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 209	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:27:00 - [37] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? I agree. +1 I made a feedback thread in my sig with a few other suggestions Tanks for Listening...
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1276	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:30:00 - [38] - Quote In my view, its less about the lack of damage we do? Though some extra would be nice! The main things I find to be the problems. 1) Hardners(The use of more than 1) Cycling hardners is a problem, the whole idea of this 'waves of opportunity' is tanks have a limited window where they are strong enough to consider breaching enemy lines (notice I didn't say invincible), but the ability to cycle hardners to be almost always hardened unbalances this! Soultion - Stacking Penalty for each additional hardner +40% 2) AV capability(lack of equipment) At the moment there are 4 types of AV, Forge, SL, PLC, Grenade. Now these are all well and good, but they only deal damage, we need av guns and equipment that do other things, slow down tank speed, apply heat to the guns that kinda thing! Soultion - Temporal Grenades, Wide-Beam lasers, webifiers, emp grenades! 3) Vehicle - Infantry Interplay As it stands there are very few modules that can be used to the benifit of BOTH tank and infantry, things like smoke grenades, emp bursts stuff that will benifit infantry who run with a tank, to make killing of enemy AV easier. Soultion - More active modules, smoke grenades, emp bursts, shield walls, that kinda thing! My opinion anyway! Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 924	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:33:00 - [39] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the problem is not tanks, but the number of them that can be deployed at once. AV dealing with two tanks is manageable. 5-6, not so much. The price increase makes spamming then much less profitable, and those who do spam them will quickly lose the isk to do so. Tanks should be powerful, but also costly if destroyed. Nerfing tanks, especially nerfing their modules, nerfs LAVs and drop ships too. You can't make a vehicle vs AV thread and talk only about tanks. Thats like making a infantry balance thread and not talking about heavies and light suits. this is also valid. I think if we get a little tougher AV natural selection will take over and everyone will be happier. sure the tough guys might lose an extra tank here and there but the MLT spam will be affected the most. They are getting popped by the sheer volume of new pilotsany way Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 332	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:34:00 - [40] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage something like this could help. I am against dropping the hp or CPU/PG of tanks though.they just reworked tanks. Curious why you would be against changing the statistics which by far would be a simpler and more streamlined solution. Look at starter fits, not only do they have less eHP but they also have less resources and less slots. Their weapons have less ammo per clip and overall, accuracy is lower and almost all conceivable statistics are worse. Ok you don't like starter fits as a comparison? How about militia items? Militia items don't get skill bonuses and take higher CPU/PG utilization. Directly related suits have the same HP but lower resources, in either case a MLT tank should be the same. Other than BPOs how many MLT non-noob infantry do you see? Not many as compared to standard or advanced. MLT gear is at sizable disadvantage but they still have the potential to be lethal provided proper tactics. Edit: grammatical and auto-correct fixes.

knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 866	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:38:00 - [41] - Quote when tank prices go up I will buy more expensive tanks. MLT tanks need adjustment they are too effective for their isk and sp requirement, std hulls are also too effective for their isk requirement not so much the SP side though. I am confused here you seem to be implying that rather than recognize our own faults we are scapegoating MLT variants saying "better them than me" when as it would seem tankers, infantry, and AV, can agree that MLT tanks are too good. would the agreement of three parties usually divided not imply that the involved parties are recognizing a truth? you seem to be needlessly inflaming the community and letting loose baseless accusations. tankers have always been at the mercy of infantry, CCP favors infantry and always has every dedicated tanker recognizes this most basic truth. we know our nerf is coming we just want to put in spots that it actually needs to be. adding Ewar web nades ect. making tanks cost match their effectiveness price buff making tanks the right speed hotfixed yesterday making 0 sp fits as effective as they should be. the nerfs of builds past have been devastating to tanking as a career path and we don't want that again, some of it is that infantry just needs to HTFU after never seeing tanks in 1.6. but some of it is genuine problems that need to be fixed. we want our nerf to fix the problems, not put tanking back into obsolescence. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Jammer Jalapeno BIG BAD W0LVES 117	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:42:00 - [42] - Quote This is interesting conversation. I'm still not sure what to make of the whole tank A/V debate but I do feel tankers got what they deserved. There are definitevly pros and cons to 1.7. For instance, if a highly skilled tanker pulls a tank out on the field, it should be devastating. It's an expensive investment, and there is no way a proto AVer should be able to solo you. Coordinated efforts should be made to take you out. Militia tanks however are where they should be. I do agree there has been quite a bit of spamming but surely there are ways to counter that. I don't know about the rest of you dusties out there, but my proto AV gear has no problem taking these things out and well quite frankly that is the way it should be. It's militia garbage. I feel that the general dust population is having a hard time coping with all the changes. The way you tanked/AVed before is now over. We are in a new era now and it's time to get creative. Tanks are pretty badass but not invincible. MmMmMm TanKs....delicious TanKs
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 334	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:51:00 - [43] - Quote Jammer Jalapeno wrote: This is interesting conversation. I'm still not sure what to make of the whole tank A/V debate but I do feel tankers got what they deserved. There are definitevly pros and cons to 1.7. For instance, if a highly skilled tanker pulls a tank out on the field, it should be devastating. It's an expensive investment, and there is no way a proto AVer should be able to solo you. Coordinated efforts should be made to take you out. Militia tanks however are where they should be. I do agree there has been quite a bit of spamming but surely there are ways to counter that. I don't know about the rest of you dusties out there, but my proto AV gear has no problem taking these things out and well quite frankly that is the way it should be. It's militia garbage. I feel that the general dust population is having a hard time coping with all the changes. The way you tanked/AVed before is now over. We are in a new era now and it's time to get creative. Tanks are pretty badass but not invincible. You unknowingly admitted and denied the problem in the same post: Problem: Need of PROTO AV to take out MLT HAV. What this means: HAVs higher than MLT are worth more than one player, creates an artificial player advantage that is further inflated by bringing in more tanks. Solution: balance around 1 v 1 of similar skill/tier of gear Heavy AV vs HAV. The only balance is equivalence in killing power.
Jammer Jalapeno BIG BAD W0LVES 117	Posted - 2013.12.19 19:56:00 - [44] - Quote Well I probably could use a lower tier, it doesn't exist in my fittings though. When I want something gone I do it quick and efficiently. MmMmMm TanKs....delicious TanKs
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 523	Posted - 2013.12.19 20:51:00 - [45] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: NAV HIV wrote: A militia tank should be slightly stronger than Militia AV or standard AV. Gives the sense of competition and achievement. A tanker spends a lot of SP, so does a proper AV user. So if a Proto AV user can't even fight a MLT tank, What are they supposed to when 2-3 decent tanks show up?! First it's the Forge gun. I know most were using it as an anti infantry weapon. But now it's not as great against Vehicles either. Proto Swarm nerfed to half of it's capabilities. If it was MLT, STD or ADV i would understand. But Even with Proto AVs with Prof 5 and some, i can barely keep up with Sicas and Somas. I find myself pulling out a tank instead of my forge. Its cheaper and more effective. It is also causing people distress. ...and THAT'S the problem. Pulling another tank out is cheaper and more effective than a Proto Forge Gunning Heavy. I've said it before and I'll stand by my opinon that the vehicle update was much needed and great for vehicle operators, I don't like the AV nerf but I can work around it. What is actually off the hook ridiculous is the bargin basement cost of the vehicles in terms of ISK and even more significant is that not a single Skill Point needs to be allocated to achieve their current level of effectiveness.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 337	Posted - 2013.12.19 21:01:00 - [46] - Quote Jammer Jalapeno wrote: Well I probably could use a lower tier, it doesn't exist in my fittings though. When I want something gone I do it quick and efficiently. This game is all about the choices you make. You can run and hide from tanks or man up and put the skills into something to destroy it. In the current environment this translates; You can hide as infantry or buy a tank. AV made choices, so did V, but when Borg V and AV were changed only one of us got a respec, My SP should not be worthless because I specialized in handheld weapons specifically designed to kill enemy vehicle.
Jammer Jalapeno BIG BAD W0LVES 118	Posted - 2013.12.19 21:54:00 - [47] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Jammer Jalapeno wrote: Well I probably could use a lower tier, it doesn't exist in my fittings though. When I want something gone I do it quick and efficiently. This game is all about the choices you make. You can run and hide from tanks or man up and put the skills into something to destroy it. In the current environment this translates; You can hide as infantry or buy a tank. AV made choices, so did V, but when both V and AV were changed only one of us got a respec, My SP should not be worthless because I specialized in handheld weapons specifically designed to kill enemy vehicle. They should do just that. So you're saying you have skilled into handheld AV weaponry, and you now find it useless with 1.7? I'm confused are you asking for a respec or an AV buff? \ MmMmMm TanKs....delicious TanKs
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 930	Posted - 2013.12.19 22:58:00 - [48] - Quote Try using a militia forge on a tank. You will just get yourself killed along with any supporting infantry. Your options are extremely limited. How can one recommend skilling into AV when tanks will be nerfed before you get something decent to use against them. I can kill anything. I can use almost any suit or weapon at the advanced level. Lots at proto level. This thread is for all the people who can't. Their option is call a MLT tank. Thus creating tank spam. currently to counter tank spam they have to spam tanks. Or I have to drop what I am doing and go save everyone. I under stand tankers wanting to be badass with 15 mil sp into tanks. I am bad ass with basic mods on a basic tank. AV barely causes me to glanc in there direction. Your telling me all these loud mouth braggards can't take 150 more damage. If there is a skill gap,beginning to question that, a buff of Av should cull the weak. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
KING CHECKMATE Scions of Athra 3379	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:11:00 - [49] - Quote lets ask a few questions./ Lets go! what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? ITs going to increase too off course,but it aint goig to be that bad since price will match tank's effectiveness... How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? In good theory: Tank prices go up again, tankers (specially tourists like myself) Wont use more than 1 tank per match since the main reason to Abuse tanks,specially MLT ones, is taht they are cheaper than the Proto fits to COUNTER them.Belive me, if my Sica cost 300k i will still prefer using my 185k AV fit,even if its NOt as effective... what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? AV is a SUPPORT role. AV specialist live a double life: AV when vehicles are present, AI when there are no vehicles present. No tanks in the battlefield is NOT a problem. 7 tanks at the same time are... if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? 7. The real question is : how much are there left to fight infantry and take objectives IF,the enemy deploys 6+ tanks. NONE. Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? I sadly do not understand the question. Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? 2 If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? Jihad LAV + Luck Still having to kill yourself for a CHANCE to take down another player in a 1 v 1 battle is not balanced... GÖªBuffing AV is a solution GÖªLimiting tanks to 2 per team is a solution GÖªIncreasing tank prices are a solution. Of course tankers dont want any of these.... They want to keep it as it is. and as it is its not working. AV-TANK BALANCE = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1612446#post1612446
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 153	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:12:00 - [50] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage the forge gun is balanced now so no, it stil hurts through hardeners recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit

KING CHECKMATE Scions of Athra 3379	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:17:00 - [51] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage the forge gun is balanced now so no, it stil hurts through hardeners No it doesnt, you aint kidding no one.... AV-TANK BALANCE = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1612446#post1612446
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 153	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:19:00 - [52] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage the forge gun is balanced now so no, it stil hurts through hardeners No it doesnt, you aint kidding no one.... you obviously haven't been shot by a AFG so GTFO with you & atim removing tanks already recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
True Adamance Scions of Athra 5082	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:22:00 - [53] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage the forge gun is balanced now so no, it stil hurts through hardeners No it doesnt, you aint kidding no one.... Forges do need to do less damage than Rail Turrets though and have less AoE, lets just get that straight before we talk about anything else. It's only physics....I think. Bigger shell mass accelerated= more damage to whatever its being fired at. To a Texan like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Gunlogi. Reference = ISK
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1277	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:22:00 - [54] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: lets ask a few questions./ Lets go! what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? ITs going to increase too off course,but it aint goig to be that bad since price will match tank's effectiveness... How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? In good theory: Tank prices go up again, tankers (specially tourists like myself) Wont use more than 1 tank per match since the main reason to Abuse tanks,specially MLT ones, is taht they are cheaper than the Proto fits to COUNTER them.Belive me, if my Sica cost 300k i will still prefer using my 185k AV fit,even if its NOt as effective... what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? AV is a SUPPORT role. AV specialist live a double life: AV when vehicles are present, AI when there are no vehicles present. No tanks in the battlefield is NOT a problem. 7 tanks at the same time are... if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? 7. The real question is : how much are there left to fight infantry and take objectives IF,the enemy deploys 6+ tanks. NONE. Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? I sadly do not understand the question. Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? 2 If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? Jihad LAV + Luck Still having to kill yourself for a CHANCE to take down another player in a 1 v 1 battle is not balanced... GÖªBuffing AV is a solution GÖªLimiting tanks to 2 per team is a solution GÖªIncreasing tank prices are a solution. Of course tankers dont want any of these.... They want to keep it as it is. and as it is its not working. Yes they are Soultions, but not very elegant. Gùå Buffing AV requires a buff to LAV and dropships as well (not saying im against a buff on AV, but consider the consequences) GùåLimiting Tanks to 2 creates a rush to get your tank in first, what happens to full time tankers? Just like infantry shouldn't be forced to do anything, why should a tanker with 95% of his SP in tanks be FORCED to run infantry? There is more if you wish to discuss this point in detail. GùåWhy increase tank prices, prehaps a little sure, but tanks are meant to be viable just as much as dropsuits, they SHOULD be dying relatively often, if you make tanks too expensive they become a luxury onlynafforded by mega corps, then they end up more OP, because CCP wants people too use them. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1277	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:25:00 - [55] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck. MLT tanks: Increase price OR Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost AV v HAVE combat balance Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m Return back 10% of damage Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase OR. Return previous alpha damage Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to Blitz out some damage the forge gun is balanced now so no, it stil hurts through hardeners No it doesnt, you aint kidding no one.... Forges do need to do less damage than Rail Turrets though and have less AoE, lets just get that straight before we talk about anything else. It's only physics....I think. Bigger shell mass accelerated= more damage to whatever its being fired at. Umm would like to point out they fire the same size slug from what I can tell, most of the gubins in a rail turret won't necessarily effect the damage. So the only factor is speed, so not that much more damage, just sayin. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Toxxikcity Trans Worlds Operations League of Infamy 24	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:49:00 - [56] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Saying "I was OP, but now I'm not, so make me OP again" is not what we are trying to accomplish here. That is also short sighted. I never said i was OP... once again please READ what i wrote, it was BALANCED proto V proto I'm didn't want to have to call you out. In fact I tried to avoid it. Swarms were easy mode in 1.6. If you are trying to defend that you should leave. We are trying to have an objective conversation. Opinions are like ass holes we all have them and they all stink. and that's what you're talking out of... just because you don't agree with what i'm saying doesn't make you right or give you the qualifications to say what is or isn't objective in this conversation, as for you saying swarms were easy mode in 1.6, please enlighten me as to why everyone wasn't running around with them, as they seem to do with every other weapon that is labelled OP?
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 278	Posted - 2013.12.19 23:50:00 - [57] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Curious why you would be against changing the statistics which by far would be a simpler and more streamlined solution. Look at starter fits, not only do they have less eHP but they also have less resources and less slots. Their weapons have less ammo per clip and overall, accuracy is lower and almost all conceivable statistics are worse. Ok you don't like starter fits as a comparison? How about militia items? Militia items don't get skill bonuses and take higher CPU/PG utilization. Directly related suits have the same HP but lower resources, in either case a MLT tank should be the same. Other than BPOs how many MLT non-noob infantry do you see? Not many as compared to standard or advanced. MLT gear is at sizable disadvantage but they still have the potential to be lethal provided proper tactics. Edit: grammatical and auto-correct fixes. 1) Starter fits are made from militia items. 2) Militia HAVs do indeed have less slots, less CPU, and less PG. 3) Militia vehicle items do take more cpu and pg than their standard counterparts. 4) You've never once bothered to look at militia vehicles or items before posting in a thread about militia vehicles and items.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 932	Posted - 2013.12.20 00:11:00 - [58] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: Curious why you would be against changing the statistics which by far would be a simpler and more streamlined solution. Look at starter fits, not only do they have less eHP but they also have less resources and less slots. Their weapons have less ammo per clip and overall, accuracy is lower and almost all conceivable statistics are worse. Ok you don't like starter fits as a comparison? How about militia items? Militia items don't get skill bonuses and take higher CPU/PG utilization. Directly related suits have the same HP but lower resources, in either case a MLT tank should be the same. Other than BPOs how many MLT non-noob infantry do you see? Not many as compared to standard or advanced. MLT gear is at sizable disadvantage but they still have the potential to be lethal provided proper tactics. Edit: grammatical and auto-correct fixes. 1) Starter fits are made from militia items. 2) Militia HAVs do indeed have less slots, less CPU, and less PG. 3) Militia vehicle items do take more cpu and pg than their standard counterparts. 4) You've never once bothered to look at militia vehicles or items before posting in a thread about militia vehicles and items. people are being misdirected and misguided. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 932	Posted - 2013.12.20 00:17:00 - [59] - Quote Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Toxxikcity wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Saying "I was OP, but now I'm not, so make me OP again" is not what we are trying to accomplish here. That is also short sighted. I never said i was OP... once again please READ what i wrote, it was BALANCED proto V proto I'm didn't want to have to call you out. In fact I tried to avoid it. Swarms were easy mode in 1.6. If you are trying to defend that you should leave. We are trying to have an objective conversation. Opinions are like ass holes we all have them and they all stink. and that's what you're talking out of... just because you don't agree with what i'm saying doesn't make you right or give you the qualifications to say what is or isn't objective in this conversation, as for you saying swarms were easy mode in 1.6, please enlighten me as to why everyone wasn't running around with them, as they seem to do with every other weapon that is labelled OP? I have been doing this AV thing since we still had dire sentinels. I know a cheap kill when I see one. I could kill almost any tank without reloading and I only skilled up to cbr7. If you were having any difficulties you are probably the wrong person to be giving out advice on any kind of AV. Did you think you were skilled. That's cute Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
KING CHECKMATE Scions of Athra 3379	Posted - 2013.12.20 00:27:00 - [60] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Yes they are Soultions, but not very elegant. Gùå Buffing AV requires a buff to LAV and dropships as well (not saying im against a buff on AV, but consider the consequences) GùåLimiting Tanks to 2 creates a rush to get your tank in first, what happens to full time tankers? Just like infantry shouldn't be forced to do anything, why should a tanker with 95% of his SP in tanks be FORCED to run infantry? There is more if you wish to discuss this point in detail. GùåWhy increase tank prices, prehaps a little sure, but tanks are meant to be viable just as much as dropsuits, they SHOULD be dying relatively often, if you make tanks too expensive they become a luxury onlynafforded by mega corps, then they end up more OP, because CCP wants people too use them. Elegance is NOT of my concern. Effectiveness and balance are. Gùå Buffing AV requires a buff to LAV and dropships as well (not saying im against a buff on AV, but consider the consequences) Not quite Monkey. Check my reasoning out please: GÖª Forge guns need NO buff. They are working as intended/ LAV & DS are equally damaged as it is GÖª Swarms need a RANGE buff. / This affects both but with the SAME damage output they can take it. GÖª AV Grenades need a 30% damage buff,at least / This does not affect Dropships not tanks a lot,mostly LAV's GÖª PC need a buff, maybe reload speed or damage / DS are unaffected , immobile LAV's are affected but thats it So with this buffs the DS gets hit hard by 1 more thing, the LAV by 1 more thing, but still: DS only have 2 Infantry counter (FG & Swarms) and LAV while moving have little counters.So why buff for example Dropships if AS THEY are they only get countered by Forge guns? GùåLimiting Tanks to 2 creates a rush to get your tank in first, what happens to full time tankers? Just like infantry shouldn't be forced to do anything, why should a tanker with 95% of his SP in tanks be FORCED to run infantry? There is more if you wish to discuss this point in detail. I explained this in details in my POST regarding these limitations. please refer to my signature on it and we can discuss it. GùåWhy increase tank prices, prehaps a little sure, but tanks are meant to be viable just as much as dropsuits, they SHOULD be dying relatively often, if you make tanks too expensive they become a luxury only afforded by mega corps, then they end up more OP, because CCP wants people too use them. Im not saying increase the price to 5 million each, But as it is an ADV dropsuit costs 50-80k and a MLT tank,while being more than TWICE as effective (with higher EHP, higher speed,higher firepower and the only CON being they cant cap points) cost 65k.a WELL FITTED PROTO AV fitting costs over 150k ISK each and tehy cant even effectively kill 1 MLT tank that cost less than half. If someone CANT see whats wrong with this then i cant help. @ True Adamance: What up bro? Listen, THe forge gun needs its current Range and Firepower.As it is my sica can withstand firepower from 2+ PROTO FORGEGUNNERS simultaneously ...and we are talking about a MLT vehicle. If you nerf them more how much more will be needed to take them out!? Want something that makes sense? Increase Firepower on rail Turrets while taking away their splash damage and reducing their Aim assist.There. AV-TANK BALANCE = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1612446#post1612446

Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1277	Posted - 2013.12.20 00:32:00 - [61] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Yes they are Soultions, but not very elegant. Gùå Buffing AV requires a buff to LAV and dropships as well (not saying im against a buff on AV, but consider the consequences) GùåLimiting Tanks to 2 creates a rush to get your tank in first, what happens to full time tankers? Just like infantry shouldn't be forced to do anything, why should a tanker with 95% of his SP in tanks be FORCED to run infantry? There is more if you wish to discuss this point in detail. GùåWhy increase tank prices, prehaps a little sure, but tanks are meant to be viable just as much as dropsuits, they SHOULD be dying relatively often, if you make tanks too expensive they become a luxury onlynafforded by mega corps, then they end up more OP, because CCP wants people too use them. Elegance is NOT of my concern. Effectiveness and balance are. Gùå Buffing AV requires a buff to LAV and dropships as well (not saying im against a buff on AV, but consider the consequences) Not quite Monkey. Check my reasoning out please: GÖª Forge guns need NO buff. They are working as intended/ LAV & DS are equally damaged as it is GÖª Swarms need a RANGE buff. / This affects both but with the SAME damage output they can take it. GÖª AV Grenades need a 30% damage buff,at least / This does not affect Dropships not tanks a lot,mostly LAV's GÖª PC need a buff, maybe reload speed or damage / DS are unaffected , immobile LAV's are affected but thats it So with this buffs the DS gets hit hard by 1 more thing, the LAV by 1 more thing, but still: DS only have 2 Infantry counter (FG & Swarms) and LAV while moving have little counters.So why buff for example Dropships if AS THEY are they only get countered by Forge guns? GùåLimiting Tanks to 2 creates a rush to get your tank in first, what happens to full time tankers? Just like infantry shouldn't be forced to do anything, why should a tanker with 95% of his SP in tanks be FORCED to run infantry? There is more if you wish to discuss this point in detail. I explained this in details in my POST regarding these limitations. please refer to my signature on it and we can discuss it. GùåWhy increase tank prices, prehaps a little sure, but tanks are meant to be viable just as much as dropsuits, they SHOULD be dying relatively often, if you make tanks too expensive they become a luxury only afforded by mega corps, then they end up more OP, because CCP wants people too use them. Im not saying increase the price to 5 million each, But as it is an ADV dropsuit costs 50-80k and a MLT tank,while being more than TWICE as effective (with higher EHP, higher speed,higher firepower and the only CON being they cant cap points) cost 65k.a WELL FITTED PROTO AV fitting costs over 150k ISK each and tehy cant even effectively kill 1 MLT tank that cost less than half. If someone CANT see whats wrong with this then i cant help. @ True Adamance: What up bro? Listen, THe forge gun needs its current Range and Firepower.As it is my sica can withstand firepower from 2+ PROTO FORGEGUNNERS simultaneously ...and we are talking about a MLT vehicle. If you nerf them more how much more will be needed to take them out!? Want something that makes sense? Increase Firepower on rail Turrets while taking away their splash damage and reducing their Aim assist.There. Gùå Bufs are reasonable, those are the kinda buffs I wanted Gùå Ill see you there Gùå My mlt sica is 90k it doesn't nneed to be much more 110k max I would say. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 513	Posted - 2013.12.20 00:36:00 - [62] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point. A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point. multi layered maps could be great for infantry fighting infantry too. Tanking is at least a 2 person job in real life and it goes upto like 10 people... Tank drivers should only get their forward small turret and need someone to ride with them to operate their main turret... It should be a two person job to both drive the tank and operate the main turret. Its the elephant in the room no one will talk about.
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1452	Posted - 2013.12.20 00:37:00 - [63] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? o7 boss im going to try and answer some of your questions as diplomatically as I can 1) I would expect the price to be raised slightly as well as the difference between a full mlt fit and std fit currently runs between 200-325k more for a fully fit std hav . 2) hrm you and I both know that swarms and forges still work wonders when used by skilled operatives , the whole nerf mlt hav thing im not so sure about it any more. 3) std tanks , lavs dropships crus turrets and most likely any infantry that gets between me and my next target. ohh and supply depos we cant forget them 4) come on if the 3 dedicated av specialists kill one of the 3 will they stop after its dead or kill the next one like we would do. 5) pending on how good the pilot is but I can shut off every vehicle on the map if I get my glass cannon out quick enough , that being said I rely heavily on support from av as it is a glass cannon. 6) forge guns , think of that poor sod bishop that rolled past us the other day or that hellstorm tanker we chased back to his redline. 7) I fell like im talikg to columbo " just one more thing " lol now one of the biggest things about av balance and vehicle balance is any suit can equip light av wepons so say you specialise in assault suits with an ar once you max that out you only then have to skill a pittense of sp into swarms to reach proto level in comparison to havs , this was a major gripe for many tankers as wel as cost and strength of av pre 1.7 now tanks are in a good place but av isent as good as it once was. I have also noticed something tonight while playing after reading a post on he forum , and I have killed many swarmers and forgers with my rail and missiles who have been standing still out in the open whare they think I cant see them ( this pattern developed because of poor tank rendering) and they literally just stand still and still spam swarms while my shield hardners are up tactics are need to kill a tank simple on that one. ill also leave this link here have a wee look and see what you think https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1628134#post1628134 Its gone from suck .....to blow level 1 forum warrior
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 934	Posted - 2013.12.20 01:31:00 - [64] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? o7 boss im going to try and answer some of your questions as diplomatically as I can 1) I would expect the price to be raised slightly as well as the difference between a full mlt fit and std fit currently runs between 200-325k more for a fully fit std hav . 2) hrm you and I both know that swarms and forges still work wonders when used by skilled operatives , the whole nerf mlt hav thing im not so sure about it any more. 3) std tanks , lavs dropships crus turrets and most likely any infantry that gets between me and my next target. ohh and supply depos we cant forget them 4) come on if the 3 dedicated av specialists kill one of the 3 will they stop after its dead or kill the next one like we would do. 5) pending on how good the pilot is but I can shut off every vehicle on the map if I get my glass cannon out quick enough , that being said I rely heavily on support from av as it is a glass cannon. 6) forge guns , think of that poor sod bishop that rolled past us the other day or that hellstorm tanker we chased back to his redline. 7) I fell like im talikg to columbo " just one more thing " lol now one of the biggest things about av balance and vehicle balance is any suit can equip light av wepons so say you specialise in assault suits with an ar once you max that out you only then have to skill a pittense of sp into swarms to reach proto level in comparison to havs , this was a major gripe for many tankers as wel as cost and strength of av pre 1.7 now tanks are in a good place but av isent as good as it once was. I have also noticed something tonight while playing after reading a post on he forum , and I have killed many swarmers and forgers with my rail and missiles who have been standing still out in the open whare they think I cant see them ( this pattern developed because of poor tank rendering) and they literally just stand still and still spam swarms while my shield hardners are up tactics are need to kill a tank simple on that one. ill also leave this link here have a wee look and see what you think https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1628134#post1628134 you won me over. Gonna tank every match while I still can. Might as well its cheaper and easier than utilizing the countless battles under my belt. Buff tanks screw Av.ill ride this wave with you brother. Fuckall these new guys who don't have corps or squads. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1453	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:10:00 - [65] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? o7 boss im going to try and answer some of your questions as diplomatically as I can 1) I would expect the price to be raised slightly as well as the difference between a full mlt fit and std fit currently runs between 200-325k more for a fully fit std hav . 2) hrm you and I both know that swarms and forges still work wonders when used by skilled operatives , the whole nerf mlt hav thing im not so sure about it any more. 3) std tanks , lavs dropships crus turrets and most likely any infantry that gets between me and my next target. ohh and supply depos we cant forget them 4) come on if the 3 dedicated av specialists kill one of the 3 will they stop after its dead or kill the next one like we would do. 5) pending on how good the pilot is but I can shut off every vehicle on the map if I get my glass cannon out quick enough , that being said I rely heavily on support from av as it is a glass cannon. 6) forge guns , think of that poor sod bishop that rolled past us the other day or that hellstorm tanker we chased back to his redline. 7) I fell like im talikg to columbo " just one more thing " lol now one of the biggest things about av balance and vehicle balance is any suit can equip light av wepons so say you specialise in assault suits with an ar once you max that out you only then have to skill a pittense of sp into swarms to reach proto level in comparison to havs , this was a major gripe for many tankers as wel as cost and strength of av pre 1.7 now tanks are in a good place but av isent as good as it once was. I have also noticed something tonight while playing after reading a post on he forum , and I have killed many swarmers and forgers with my rail and missiles who have been standing still out in the open whare they think I cant see them ( this pattern developed because of poor tank rendering) and they literally just stand still and still spam swarms while my shield hardners are up tactics are need to kill a tank simple on that one. ill also leave this link here have a wee look and see what you think https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1628134#post1628134 you won me over. Gonna tank every match while I still can. Might as well its cheaper and easier than utilizing the countless battles under my belt. Buff tanks screw Av.ill ride this wave with you brother. Fuckall these new guys who don't have corps or squads. ??????????? are you pissed that an actual tanker came on here to answer your questions or are you just trolling? Its gone from suck .....to blow level 1 forum warrior
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 293	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:16:00 - [66] - Quote Another good post in the long line of good posts in the eternal AV/HAV debate. It's interesting to note that the evolution of the debate has finally matured a bit: Gone from: "Tanks are now balanced" with such fallacious arguments as "It costs a lot of SP and ISK to run a tank, so it should be hard to kill" and my favourite "It should take organised teamwork or multiple AV to kill a tank" Now it's onto: "Ok there's a problem, how do we balance it" with arguments like "We should introduce vehicle capacitors" or "an AV skill tree" or just simply "Buff AV weapons with multiple ammo types". What is missing, and this really crucial, is some kind of brief like "We find them balanced" or "we're looking it" or "we know there's a problem" from the makers of the game. If they say something like "tanks are balanced", then I guarantee you that you will have a) infantry exodus from the game and b) clamouring for the vehicle limit to be removed and c) I'll be hopping into a tank as well. :)
Rusty Shallows 581	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:54:00 - [67] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point. A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point. Had similar thoughts on that. Important objectives have 30 or so meters of dense urban terrain around them while secondaries like CRUs & Supply Depots are on the perimeter or out in the open. MCC Lounge Lizard Forums > Game Fix the game CCP
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 382	Posted - 2013.12.20 10:48:00 - [68] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? We will not be able to effectively examine the balance between dedicated AV and dedicated tankers until this Militia tank spam is cleared up. Right now the Tanks often have the advantage of numbers on top of their other advantages. I donGÇÖt think Militia tanks should be nerfed, at least not at this stage, beyond taking away things that can be added back in with skills. I donGÇÖt think we should look at increasing the price too much yet either. At least not yet. The fist priority is to bring back the skill distinction between dedicated pilots and people who have no skill points invested in vehicles. This would also mean that an expensive fitted tank, called in by a tanker, would not be nearly as effective in the hands of a non tanker. That and a bit of a Swarm Launcher buff should clear up the non-pilot tank spam. Then we could look at AV/Tank balance without all the clutter. That would only be possile by buffin the std tanks and do we REALLY need even stronger tanks? Come on what Do you think a tanker will do once the is no other tank to shoot at (well at least those that did not shoot infantry before)? Do you really believe they will recall their tanks to be part of the infantry game?
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 950	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:22:00 - [69] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? o7 boss im going to try and answer some of your questions as diplomatically as I can 1) I would expect the price to be raised slightly as well as the difference between a full mlt fit and std fit currently runs between 200-325k more for a fully fit std hav . 2) hrm you and I both know that swarms and forges still work wonders when used by skilled operatives , the whole nerf mlt hav thing im not so sure about it any more. 3) std tanks , lavs dropships crus turrets and most likely any infantry that gets between me and my next target. ohh and supply depos we cant forget them 4) come on if the 3 dedicated av specialists kill one of the 3 will they stop after its dead or kill the next one like we would do. 5) pending on how good the pilot is but I can shut off every vehicle on the map if I get my glass cannon out quick enough , that being said I rely heavily on support from av as it is a glass cannon. 6) forge guns , think of that poor sod bishop that rolled past us the other day or that hellstorm tanker we chased back to his redline. 7) I fell like im talikg to columbo " just one more thing " lol now one of the biggest things about av balance and vehicle balance is any suit can equip light av wepons so say you specialise in assault suits with an ar once you max that out you only then have to skill a pittense of sp into swarms to reach proto level in comparison to havs , this was a major gripe for many tankers as wel as cost and strength of av pre 1.7 now tanks are in a good place but av isent as good as it once was. I have also noticed something tonight while playing after reading a post on he forum , and I have killed many swarmers and forgers with my rail and missiles who have been standing still out in the open whare they think I cant see them ( this pattern developed because of poor tank rendering) and they literally just stand still and still spam swarms while my shield hardners are up tactics are need to kill a tank simple on that one. ill also leave this link here have a wee look and see what you think https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1628134#post1628134 you won me over. Gonna tank every match while I still can. Might as well its cheaper and easier than utilizing the countless battles under my belt. Buff tanks screw Av.ill ride this wave with you brother. Fuckall these new guys who don't have corps or squads. ??????????? are you pissed that an actual tanker came on here to answer your questions or are you just trolling? Pegasis and I argue this every day. We went out and slaughtered infantry this morning in ambush. They just kept spawning AV, nothin could stop us. He was telling me that if they would just use tactics they might bring one of us down. I had to continuously remind him they probably can't because of smart spawn. I was just trying to make him feel guilty but these vet tankers are like a dog with a bone. Later I went 23/0 and19/0 in Dom consecutively. Ask Lt shanks he went 1/11. Whatev. it will probably take abusing tanks till enough people quit. I feel dirty Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 411	Posted - 2013.12.21 02:02:00 - [70] - Quote Do you really believe it takes 3 people to take out a current STD fit tank? If so you're either bad with AV or the people who you play with that are AV are bad. It is the militia tanks and they are the problem. Most real tankers, even ones that run blasters never go past 15 kills in a game. It really is the militia scrubs that call out four militia tanks all game and go 30/5. They're the problem and if you fail to see that, your opinion is just as biased as anyone else. I really only kill infantry if: They have AV They have an LAV They're hacking my objective They're in a proto suit. Otherwise I'm on the field as AV. I remove other tanks/dropships/LAVs. ZionTCD Director & Ammar Loyalist Amarr Sentinel \| Amarr Logi \| *Losematar* Scout What is a signature?

Rowdy Railgunner Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 289	Posted - 2013.12.21 02:11:00 - [71] - Quote Remove MLT tanks. There is no reason for them. The have already removed the free MLT LAV.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 950	Posted - 2013.12.21 02:13:00 - [72] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Do you really believe it takes 3 people to take out a current STD fit tank? If so you're either bad with AV or the people who you play with that are AV are bad. It is the militia tanks and they are the problem. Most real tankers, even ones that run blasters never go past 15 kills in a game. It really is the militia scrubs that call out four militia tanks all game and go 30/5. They're the problem and if you fail to see that, your opinion is just as biased as anyone else. I really only kill infantry if: They have AV They have an LAV They're hacking my objective They're in a proto suit. Otherwise I'm on the field as AV. I remove other tanks/dropships/LAVs. so.....every one Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 412	Posted - 2013.12.21 02:26:00 - [73] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: so.....every one What I'm getting at is that I don't tank to kill infantry. I'll do what I have to so our team can win but I don't go out seeking kills. ZionTCD Director & Ammar Loyalist Amarr Sentinel \| Amarr Logi \| *Losematar* Scout What is a signature?
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 950	Posted - 2013.12.21 02:30:00 - [74] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: so.....every one What I'm getting at is that I don't tank to kill infantry. I'll do what I have to so our team can win but I don't go out seeking kills. yeah I know. Nobody kills infantry. You are all completely honest. Every veteran tanker only kills MLT tanks. We get it. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 412	Posted - 2013.12.21 02:48:00 - [75] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: so.....every one What I'm getting at is that I don't tank to kill infantry. I'll do what I have to so our team can win but I don't go out seeking kills. yeah I know. Nobody kills infantry. You are all completely honest. Every veteran tanker only kills MLT tanks. We get it. I'm a veteran tanker? I just have a 8 mill SP alt that uses vehicles. You really seem pretty butt-hurt about tanks though. ZionTCD Director & Ammar Loyalist Amarr Sentinel \| Amarr Logi \| *Losematar* Scout What is a signature?
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 950	Posted - 2013.12.21 02:55:00 - [76] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: so.....every one What I'm getting at is that I don't tank to kill infantry. I'll do what I have to so our team can win but I don't go out seeking kills. yeah I know. Nobody kills infantry. You are all completely honest. Every veteran tanker only kills MLT tanks. We get it. I'm a veteran tanker? I just have a 8 mill SP alt that uses vehicles. You really seem pretty butt-hurt about tanks though. I tank. Have 33 mil sp. There isn't much I don't do. If they Nerf or buff it doesn't affect me much. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 1104	Posted - 2013.12.21 03:07:00 - [77] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks. lets ask a few questions. what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up? How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks? what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks? if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground? Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up? Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in? If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker? IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me". one more question. After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind? I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted. a final question. Why wait for balance? MLT tanks are too cheap, but obviously they are not to blame for why AV is struggling. You can make some very cheap STD tanks. My cheapest costs 160k and is extremely durable against AV; I can sit there for a minute and a half and eat everything thrown at me by 2-3 AV guys and laugh as I blow them away. So, the price of all tanks is a problem, combined with how many can be fielded. Beyond that, all infantry AV is effective against armor, making cycled shield hardener tanks almost impossible to take down. Armor tanks are also pretty good against AV and a double rep, single hardened Madrugar is very difficult to pop, although a bit easier than a well fit shield tank. TvT is basically taking both tank's DPS, multiplying by resistance, subtracting repair and then dividing that into total HP to see who will die first, with preempts adding several seconds of free damage, usually while the target is unhardened. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 966	Posted - 2013.12.21 08:06:00 - [78] - Quote Buff AV. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
8213 BIG BAD W0LVES 1161	Posted - 2013.12.21 08:51:00 - [79] - Quote AV is fine. They need to raise the prices of Tanks. If I can't kill it, it better be because it costs more than my AV dropsuit. I have no problem with the AV nerf, what I have a problem with is that no matter how many tanks you destroy, more just keep getting called in. I can't remember killing 3 tanks per game, every game, as the norm. Tanks are supposed to wreck sh*t on the ground, but right now they have no drawbacks. They're modules make them gods while activated, and they cost about the same as my Scrambler Rifle. Militia tanks also need to be ganked. Soma: 2 low-slots/0 high-slots Sica: 2 high-slots/0 low slots Militia tanks are the problem really. I have no problem getting the wrench thrown at me from a guy with a Maddy or Gunlogi that's built well. He invested into his tank, he should get to wreck face. A militia clown car tanker shouldn't be getting rewarded like they are right now in the game. If we can eliminate Miltia tank spam, then we can really analyze how HAVs are preforming in relation to their AV counterpart and tweak it from there.
Shadow of War88 0uter.Heaven 112	Posted - 2013.12.21 09:05:00 - [80] - Quote i think CCP intended for tanks to only be efficiently destroyed by other tanks. Need a band of AV to kill a tank now. good news is militia tanks with railgun can destroy even the hardcore tank pilots, and you can jump out and fire 3 swarm volleys if your cheap tank dint quite do the trick. the only difference between a hardcore tank pilot and a militia pilot is that veterans have a larger window of opportunity. Meaning our modules can stay active for longer and recharge much faster.

DJINN Marauder Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 3491	Posted - 2013.12.21 09:07:00 - [81] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point. A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point. multi layered maps could be great for infantry fighting infantry too. Tanking is at least a 2 person job in real life and it goes upto like 10 people... Tank drivers should only get their forward small turret and need someone to ride with them to operate their main turret... It should be a two person job to both drive the tank and operate the main turret. Its the elephant in the room no one will talk about. Yeah. This has been proposed since way back in closed beta when there was black ops tanks. Basic reasoning was if it should take team work to kill a vehicle, it should take teamwork to operate that vehicle. I'd say its a good idea. Definitely something we should try out at least. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 3 \| Warframe is awesome! \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 524	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:44:00 - [82] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Bethhy wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point. A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point. multi layered maps could be great for infantry fighting infantry too. Tanking is at least a 2 person job in real life and it goes upto like 10 people... Tank drivers should only get their forward small turret and need someone to ride with them to operate their main turret... It should be a two person job to both drive the tank and operate the main turret. Its the elephant in the room no one will talk about. Yeah. This has been proposed since way back in closed beta when there was black ops tanks. Basic reasoning was if it should take team work to kill a vehicle, it should take teamwork to operate that vehicle. I'd say its a good idea. Definitely something we should try out at least. For me it's all about the force multiplier. If a singular Mercenary can jump in a tank and his force multiplier is increased by a factor of 10 and the only limit on that is a max vehicle count in the map? it will never ever balance out.. it doesn't make sense. Only way to keep that kind of force multiplier on the battlefield and balance it is to half it... by NEEDING two people per tank to get the same results. Tanks at Advanced and Prototype levels will then make a lot more sense when we get around to them as well.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 973	Posted - 2013.12.21 16:11:00 - [83] - Quote Bethhy wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: Bethhy wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point. A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point. multi layered maps could be great for infantry fighting infantry too. Tanking is at least a 2 person job in real life and it goes upto like 10 people... Tank drivers should only get their forward small turret and need someone to ride with them to operate their main turret... It should be a two person job to both drive the tank and operate the main turret. Its the elephant in the room no one will talk about. Yeah. This has been proposed since way back in closed beta when there was black ops tanks. Basic reasoning was if it should take team work to kill a vehicle, it should take teamwork to operate that vehicle. I'd say its a good idea. Definitely something we should try out at least. For me it's all about the force multiplier. If a singular Mercenary can jump in a tank and his force multiplier is increased by a factor of 10 and the only limit on that is a max vehicle count in the map? it will never ever balance out.. it doesn't make sense. Only way to keep that kind of force multiplier on the battlefield and balance it is to half it... by NEEDING two people per tank to get the same results. Tanks at Advanced and Prototype levels will then make a lot more sense when we get around to them as well. I don't disagree with the concept but implementing it is hard. Who would pay for the tank? It would also be restrict skilled tankers. If no one would shoot/drive for them they would be useless. While funny it would alienate a person who has 10-15 mil into tanks. Kind of like how it is now for AV, but some of us can remain objective. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 432	Posted - 2014.02.06 17:25:00 - [84] - Quote I have been Tanking a lot since I made this post. Helpless little infantry is right. Who wants some?


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