Saying "I was OP, but now I'm not, so make me OP again" is not what we are trying to accomplish here. That is also short sighted.

And when tanks finally getting dialed back, we can then focus on the HMG being OP again...

I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks.

lets ask a few questions.

what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up?

How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks?

what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks?

if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground?

Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up?

Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in?

If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker?

IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me".

one more question.

After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind?

I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted.

a final question. Why wait for balance?

I never said i was OP... once again please READ what i wrote, it was BALANCED proto V proto

The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck.

MLT tanks:
Increase price
OR
Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost

AV v HAVE combat balance
Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m
Return back 10% of damage
Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase
OR.
Return previous alpha damage

Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to
Blitz out some damage

I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks.

lets ask a few questions.

what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up?

How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks?

what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks?

if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground?

Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up?

Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in?

If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker?

IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me".

one more question.

After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind?

I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted.

a final question. Why wait for balance?

I think the problem is not tanks, but the number of them that can be deployed at once. AV dealing with two tanks is manageable. 5-6, not so much.

The price increase makes spamming then much less profitable, and those who do spam them will quickly lose the isk to do so. Tanks should be powerful, but also costly if destroyed.

Nerfing tanks, especially nerfing their modules, nerfs LAVs and drop ships too. You can't make a vehicle vs AV thread and talk only about tanks. Thats like making a infantry balance thread and not talking about heavies and light suits.

something like this could help. I am against dropping the hp or CPU/PG of tanks though.they just reworked tanks.

This is interesting conversation. I'm still not sure what to make of the whole tank A/V debate but I do feel tankers got what they deserved. There are definitevly pros and cons to 1.7.

For instance, if a highly skilled tanker pulls a tank out on the field, it should be devastating. It's an expensive investment, and there is no way a proto AVer should be able to solo you. Coordinated efforts should be made to take you out.

Militia tanks however are where they should be. I do agree there has been quite a bit of spamming but surely there are ways to counter that. I don't know about the rest of you dusties out there, but my proto AV gear has no problem taking these things out and well quite frankly that is the way it should be. It's militia garbage.

I feel that the general dust population is having a hard time coping with all the changes. The way you tanked/AVed before is now over. We are in a new era now and it's time to get creative. Tanks are pretty badass but not invincible.

I find myself pulling out a tank instead of my forge. Its cheaper and more effective. It is also causing people distress.

Well I probably could use a lower tier, it doesn't exist in my fittings though. When I want something gone I do it quick and efficiently.

This game is all about the choices you make. You can run and hide from tanks or man up and put the skills into something to destroy it.

In the current environment this translates;

You can hide as infantry or buy a tank.

AV made choices, so did V, but when both V and AV were changed only one of us got a respec, My SP should not be worthless because I specialized in handheld weapons specifically designed to kill enemy vehicle. They should do just that.

The solution seems self-evident, tanks are certainly OP and militia tanks provide too much bang for the buck.

MLT tanks:
Increase price
OR
Decrease available CPU/PG or health to bring it in line with cost

AV v HAVE combat balance
Swarms: Increase swarm distance to 250m
Return back 10% of damage
Forge Guns: Repeal charge time increase
OR.
Return previous alpha damage

Grenades: I think these are ok for their purpose - a quick way to
Blitz out some damage

the forge gun is balanced now so no, it stil hurts through hardeners

lets ask a few questions./ Lets go!

what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up?
ITs going to increase too off course,but it aint goig to be that bad since price will match tank's effectiveness...

How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks?
In good theory: Tank prices go up again, tankers (specially tourists like myself) Wont use more than 1 tank per match since the main reason to Abuse tanks,specially MLT ones, is taht they are cheaper than the Proto fits to COUNTER them.Belive me, if my Sica cost 300k i will still prefer using my 185k AV fit,even if its NOt as effective...

what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks?
AV is a SUPPORT role. AV specialist live a double life: AV when vehicles are present, AI when there are no vehicles present. No tanks in the battlefield is NOT a problem. 7 tanks at the same time are...

if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground?
7.
The real question is : how much are there left to fight infantry and take objectives IF,the enemy deploys 6+ tanks.
NONE.

Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up?
I sadly do not understand the question.

Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in?
2

If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker?
Jihad LAV + Luck
Still having to kill yourself for a CHANCE to take down another player in a 1 v 1 battle is not balanced...



GÖªBuffing AV is a solution
GÖªLimiting tanks to 2 per team is a solution
GÖªIncreasing tank prices are a solution.

Of course tankers dont want any of these.... They want to keep it as it is. and as it is its not working.

Forges do need to do less damage than Rail Turrets though and have less AoE, lets just get that straight before we talk about anything else.

It's only physics....I think. Bigger shell mass accelerated= more damage to whatever its being fired at.

I'm didn't want to have to call you out. In fact I tried to avoid it. Swarms were easy mode in 1.6. If you are trying to defend that you should leave. We are trying to have an objective conversation. Opinions are like ass holes we all have them and they all stink.

Curious why you would be against changing the statistics which by far would be a simpler and more streamlined solution.

Look at starter fits, not only do they have less eHP but they also have less resources and less slots. Their weapons have less ammo per clip and overall, accuracy is lower and almost all conceivable statistics are worse.

Ok you don't like starter fits as a comparison? How about militia items?

Militia items don't get skill bonuses and take higher CPU/PG utilization. Directly related suits have the same HP but lower resources, in either case a MLT tank should be the same.


Other than BPOs how many MLT non-noob infantry do you see? Not many as compared to standard or advanced. MLT gear is at sizable disadvantage but they still have the potential to be lethal provided proper tactics.


Edit: grammatical and auto-correct fixes.

1) Starter fits are made from militia items.
2) Militia HAVs do indeed have less slots, less CPU, and less PG.
3) Militia vehicle items do take more cpu and pg than their standard counterparts.
4) You've never once bothered to look at militia vehicles or items before posting in a thread about militia vehicles and items.

and that's what you're talking out of... just because you don't agree with what i'm saying doesn't make you right or give you the qualifications to say what is or isn't objective in this conversation, as for you saying swarms were easy mode in 1.6, please enlighten me as to why everyone wasn't running around with them, as they seem to do with every other weapon that is labelled OP?

Yes they are Soultions, but not very elegant.

Gùå Buffing AV requires a buff to LAV and dropships as well
(not saying im against a buff on AV, but consider the consequences)

GùåLimiting Tanks to 2 creates a rush to get your tank in first, what happens to full time tankers?
Just like infantry shouldn't be forced to do anything, why should a tanker with 95% of his SP in tanks be FORCED to run infantry? There is more if you wish to discuss this point in detail.

GùåWhy increase tank prices, prehaps a little sure, but tanks are meant to be viable just as much as dropsuits, they SHOULD be dying relatively often, if you make tanks too expensive they become a luxury onlynafforded by mega corps, then they end up more OP, because CCP wants people too use them.