Elegance is NOT of my concern. Effectiveness and balance are.

Gùå Buffing AV requires a buff to LAV and dropships as well
(not saying im against a buff on AV, but consider the consequences)
Not quite Monkey. Check my reasoning out please:
GÖª Forge guns need NO buff. They are working as intended/ LAV & DS are equally damaged as it is
GÖª Swarms need a RANGE buff. / This affects both but with the SAME damage output they can take it.
GÖª AV Grenades need a 30% damage buff,at least / This does not affect Dropships not tanks a lot,mostly LAV's
GÖª PC need a buff, maybe reload speed or damage / DS are unaffected , immobile LAV's are affected but thats it

So with this buffs the DS gets hit hard by 1 more thing, the LAV by 1 more thing, but still: DS only have 2 Infantry counter (FG & Swarms) and LAV while moving have little counters.So why buff for example Dropships if AS THEY are they only get countered by Forge guns?

GùåLimiting Tanks to 2 creates a rush to get your tank in first, what happens to full time tankers?
Just like infantry shouldn't be forced to do anything, why should a tanker with 95% of his SP in tanks be FORCED to run infantry? There is more if you wish to discuss this point in detail.
I explained this in details in my POST regarding these limitations. please refer to my signature on it and we can discuss it.

GùåWhy increase tank prices, prehaps a little sure, but tanks are meant to be viable just as much as dropsuits, they SHOULD be dying relatively often, if you make tanks too expensive they become a luxury only afforded by mega corps, then they end up more OP, because CCP wants people too use them.
Im not saying increase the price to 5 million each, But as it is an ADV dropsuit costs 50-80k and a MLT tank,while being more than TWICE as effective (with higher EHP, higher speed,higher firepower and the only CON being they cant cap points) cost 65k.a WELL FITTED PROTO AV fitting costs over 150k ISK each and tehy cant even effectively kill 1 MLT tank that cost less than half. If someone CANT see whats wrong with this then i cant help.

@ True Adamance:
What up bro? Listen, THe forge gun needs its current Range and Firepower.As it is my sica can withstand firepower from 2+ PROTO FORGEGUNNERS simultaneously ...and we are talking about a MLT vehicle. If you nerf them more how much more will be needed to take them out!?

Want something that makes sense?
Increase Firepower on rail Turrets while taking away their splash damage and reducing their Aim assist.There.

multi layered maps could be great for infantry fighting infantry too.

I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks.

lets ask a few questions.

what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up?

How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks?

what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks?

if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground?

Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up?

Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in?

If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker?

IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me".

one more question.

After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind?

I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted.

a final question. Why wait for balance?

o7 boss im going to try and answer some of your questions as diplomatically as I can

1) I would expect the price to be raised slightly as well as the difference between a full mlt fit and std fit currently runs between 200-325k more for a fully fit std hav .

2) hrm you and I both know that swarms and forges still work wonders when used by skilled operatives , the whole nerf mlt hav thing im not so sure about it any more.

3) std tanks , lavs dropships crus turrets and most likely any infantry that gets between me and my next target. ohh and supply depos we cant forget them

4) come on if the 3 dedicated av specialists kill one of the 3 will they stop after its dead or kill the next one like we would do.

5) pending on how good the pilot is but I can shut off every vehicle on the map if I get my glass cannon out quick enough , that being said I rely heavily on support from av as it is a glass cannon.

6) forge guns , think of that poor sod bishop that rolled past us the other day or that hellstorm tanker we chased back to his redline.

7) I fell like im talikg to columbo " just one more thing " lol

now one of the biggest things about av balance and vehicle balance is any suit can equip light av wepons so say you specialise in assault suits with an ar once you max that out you only then have to skill a pittense of sp into swarms to reach proto level in comparison to havs , this was a major gripe for many tankers as wel as cost and strength of av pre 1.7 now tanks are in a good place but av isent as good as it once was.

I have also noticed something tonight while playing after reading a post on he forum , and I have killed many swarmers and forgers with my rail and missiles who have been standing still out in the open whare they think I cant see them ( this pattern developed because of poor tank rendering) and they literally just stand still and still spam swarms while my shield hardners are up tactics are need to kill a tank simple on that one.

ill also leave this link here have a wee look and see what you think

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1628134#post1628134

you won me over. Gonna tank every match while I still can. Might as well its cheaper and easier than utilizing the countless battles under my belt. Buff tanks screw Av.ill ride this wave with you brother. Fuckall these new guys who don't have corps or squads.

Tanks need to be less effective against infantry, which I think is best accomplished by re-designing many of the old maps to create more areas where going infantry is really the only way to get anything done, while still providing open spaces and key points that are tactically significant for vehicles to hold and fight over, and also adding some points from which AV have a tactical advantage over vehicles (but are still vulnerable to infantry), so that, for example, controlling a null cannon wins you the game, controlling a vehicle tactical point can influence the ability to control a null cannon, and controlling an AV tactical point can influence the ability to control a vehicle tactical point.

A re-design would take a long time, but I'm convinced it's the number one factor in vehicle/AV balance at this point.

We will not be able to effectively examine the balance between dedicated AV and dedicated tankers until this Militia tank spam is cleared up. Right now the Tanks often have the advantage of numbers on top of their other advantages.

I donGÇÖt think Militia tanks should be nerfed, at least not at this stage, beyond taking away things that can be added back in with skills. I donGÇÖt think we should look at increasing the price too much yet either. At least not yet. The fist priority is to bring back the skill distinction between dedicated pilots and people who have no skill points invested in vehicles.

This would also mean that an expensive fitted tank, called in by a tanker, would not be nearly as effective in the hands of a non tanker.

That and a bit of a Swarm Launcher buff should clear up the non-pilot tank spam. Then we could look at AV/Tank balance without all the clutter.

??????????? are you pissed that an actual tanker came on here to answer your questions or are you just trolling?

Do you really believe it takes 3 people to take out a current STD fit tank? If so you're either bad with AV or the people who you play with that are AV are bad.

It is the militia tanks and they are the problem.
Most real tankers, even ones that run blasters never go past 15 kills in a game. It really is the militia scrubs that call out four militia tanks all game and go 30/5. They're the problem and if you fail to see that, your opinion is just as biased as anyone else.
I really only kill infantry if:

• They have AV
• They have an LAV
• They're hacking my objective
• They're in a proto suit.

Otherwise I'm on the field as AV. I remove other tanks/dropships/LAVs.

so.....every one

What I'm getting at is that I don't tank to kill infantry. I'll do what I have to so our team can win but I don't go out seeking kills.

yeah I know. Nobody kills infantry. You are all completely honest. Every veteran tanker only kills MLT tanks. We get it.

I'm a veteran tanker?
I just have a 8 mill SP alt that uses vehicles. You really seem pretty butt-hurt about tanks though.

I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks.

lets ask a few questions.

what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up?

How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks?

what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks?

if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground?

Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up?

Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in?

If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker?

IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me".

one more question.

After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind?

I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted.

a final question. Why wait for balance?

Tanking is at least a 2 person job in real life and it goes upto like 10 people...

Tank drivers should only get their forward small turret and need someone to ride with them to operate their main turret...

It should be a two person job to both drive the tank and operate the main turret.

Its the elephant in the room no one will talk about.

Yeah. This has been proposed since way back in closed beta when there was black ops tanks.

Basic reasoning was if it should take team work to kill a vehicle, it should take teamwork to operate that vehicle.

I'd say its a good idea. Definitely something we should try out at least.

For me it's all about the force multiplier.

If a singular Mercenary can jump in a tank and his force multiplier is increased by a factor of 10 and the only limit on that is a max vehicle count in the map? it will never ever balance out.. it doesn't make sense.

Only way to keep that kind of force multiplier on the battlefield and balance it is to half it... by NEEDING two people per tank to get the same results. Tanks at Advanced and Prototype levels will then make a lot more sense when we get around to them as well.