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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10986	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:27:00 - [1] - Quote Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Discuss. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Gorra Snell The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 288	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:35:00 - [2] - Quote Only display the 'bonus SP remaining' value if it's under a certain threshold. The value is only relevant to me now because of the weekly cap. RDVs are a failed experiment - can't we just remove them from the game?
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10986	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:39:00 - [3] - Quote Gorra Snell wrote: Only display the 'bonus SP remaining' value if it's under a certain threshold. The value is only relevant to me now because of the weekly cap. I don't think players are that stupid. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Gorra Snell The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 288	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:40:00 - [4] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think players are that stupid. Please clarify what you mean...seems like a non sequitor. RDVs are a failed experiment - can't we just remove them from the game?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 99	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:43:00 - [5] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Discuss. I think I need a more detailed description of your specific implementation of the "skillpoint rollover" idea. I've heard of a few and not sure which you are speaking to. On the assumption that you just bank bonus SP for a future week or somesuch thing when your cap is recycled, then I do not support this. It encourages people to play a lot in the short term, but then sti back and not play as much later on and then the numbers of people available for matches slowly dwindles and people have less incentive to keep playing regularly.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10989	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:44:00 - [6] - Quote Gorra Snell wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think players are that stupid. Please clarify what you mean...seems like a non sequitor. The bottom line that players will always find a way to use something the designers had not intended is the same kind of thinking that leads to suspicion that something is not up to where it should be. Lets say you're totally awesome pro player the sort that gets 15k sp a fight you know you only had 150k sp for the week to claim left but no matter how many awesome battles you have it still floats at 150k. He is first going to suspect he is not claiming any of the bonus SP, then he is going to find out the truth, that the 150k display is an absolute fabrication. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
HYENAKILLER X TEAM SHINOBI 358	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:48:00 - [7] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Discuss. False. what will really happen is new alt accounts when people catch on to the idea. You are welcome for my leadership
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10989	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:49:00 - [8] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: I think I need a more detailed description of your specific implementation of the "skillpoint rollover" idea. I've heard of a few and not sure which you are speaking to. On the assumption that you just bank bonus SP for a future week or somesuch thing when your cap is recycled, then I do not support this. It encourages people to play a lot in the short term, but then sti back and not play as much later on and then the numbers of people available for matches slowly dwindles and people have less incentive to keep playing regularly. I did not detail it my vision for a purpose. This is after all just a means of discussion, but you insist let's say for the sake of the conversation a system that captures some of the SP bonus cap normally lost and adds it to next weeks bonus. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5732	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:51:00 - [9] - Quote Better than seeing their bonus SP exhausted and getting 1000 SP for a good match. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Gorra Snell The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 288	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:51:00 - [10] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Gorra Snell wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think players are that stupid. Please clarify what you mean...seems like a non sequitor. The bottom line that players will always find a way to use something the designers had not intended is the same kind of thinking that leads to suspicion that something is not up to where it should be. Lets say you're totally awesome pro player the sort that gets 15k sp a fight you know you only had 150k sp for the week to claim left but no matter how many awesome battles you have it still floats at 150k. He is first going to suspect he is not claiming any of the bonus SP, then he is going to find out the truth, that the 150k display is an absolute fabrication. Oh, I see what you're saying. I'm by no means suggesting put up a false value...rather, removing the label and value completely from the end of match screen for players who have greater than 150k bonus sp available. Out of sight, out of mind. RDVs are a failed experiment - can't we just remove them from the game?

HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4044	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:53:00 - [11] - Quote Simply put YES! If I was. A new person playing I would at least look at the20 mil Sp available as a challenge and the hopes if I tried hard enough I might catch up. As delusional as it may be. Please don't over think it for the masses allowing new players the glimmer of hope of catching up is a great thing!
SteelDark Knight Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 169	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:54:00 - [12] - Quote I am of the belief that there should be a limited rollover or even a cap to how much stored SP is available. If you don't play for months than yes you lose something. If you miss a week, or two, or even three, due to other obligations, life, other games, than so be it you can recover and play to get that SP back. I believe you should be rewarded for playing the game and I believe that yes if you have been here from the beginning and went through the growing pains that it should have some value to it. Don't get me wrong I want a rollover SP system but I do not want an unlimited rollover system that provides no consequence for not playing for months on end.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 765	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:55:00 - [13] - Quote Tiericide + no cap (Best solution if done right) OR Laurent's Idea !
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10989	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:57:00 - [14] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Simply put YES! If I was. A new person playing I would at least look at the20 mil Sp available as a challenge and the hopes if I tried hard enough I might catch up. As delusional as it may be. Please don't over think it for the masses allowing new players the glimmer of hope of catching up is a great thing! But lets say you started with 20 mil cap you grind grind grin and get it down to 19 mil, then decide okay time to take a break and play this newest game. You beat that game come back and now you're at 22 million untapped SP you are locked away from. This quickly turns that glimmer to hope to gloom of doom of not even being able to 'catch' up with even yourself which can compound the entire issue in playing 'catch' up with the pro players. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5534	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:00:00 - [15] - Quote One way you can go about this is to institute a one week grace period after the end of the weekly cap cycle. Any bonus SP remaining gets put on stasis for that one week grace period giving that player a chance to finally cap out. If that player fails to cap out the remaining SP during that one week grace period, whatever SP remains disappears forever. The one week grace period can work along side the normal weekly cap for the following week. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2470	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:03:00 - [16] - Quote If you are concerned about showing a large bonus pool number on the EOM screen move it to the Character screen page. People could still find it, but wouldn't have it pushed in front of their faces each match. The EOM screen adds bonus the way it does today, but if it runs out of bonus it tells you "Out of bonus SP".
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10989	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:06:00 - [17] - Quote Skihids wrote: If you are concerned about showing a large bonus pool number on the EOM screen move it to the Character screen page. People could still find it, but wouldn't have it pushed in front of their faces each match. The EOM screen adds bonus the way it does today, but if it runs out of bonus it tells you "Out of bonus SP". I don't think hiding it would be a viable solution either. Players are intelligent enough to find it, and then complain about why was the counter removed from the EOM. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Morathi III Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:07:00 - [18] - Quote The system of eve online ( game i never played ) seem better to me only passive SP. In this game hardcore player can have more SP, more isk and more experience. Always make me laugh when people think their so good when they have such an advantage. Alot of ppl will day welcome to New Eden.... But generally the newberries just lesft the game after few week due to 2 things: disadvantage by gear & SP and because the game its too much of a grind NOT because of the so what skilled player
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3203	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:09:00 - [19] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think players are that stupid. Iron, you've been here long enough to know that was a futile statement.
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4045	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:09:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: HowDidThatTaste wrote: Simply put YES! If I was. A new person playing I would at least look at the20 mil Sp available as a challenge and the hopes if I tried hard enough I might catch up. As delusional as it may be. Please don't over think it for the masses allowing new players the glimmer of hope of catching up is a great thing! But lets say you started with 20 mil cap you grind grind grin and get it down to 19 mil, then decide okay time to take a break and play this newest game. You beat that game come back and now you're at 22 million untapped SP you are locked away from. This quickly turns that glimmer to hope to gloom of doom of not even being able to 'catch' up with even yourself which can compound the entire issue in playing 'catch' up with the pro players. There are many players who do play regularly and never cap out. that bonus SP is going to keep growing and growing. Huh? That makes no sense why would you or anyone tell me or any player how he might feel about having the opportunity to catchup? Right now you are telling players you will never be able to catch up . how is that working out for player retention? You are saying that you would be concerned that the average player could not handle the fact he has a lot of playing to do to catch up. Or that if we didn't have it like we didnt tell him like we do now he is too stupid to find out that he can never catch up?

Sigberct Amni Goonfeet Top Men. 248	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:10:00 - [21] - Quote Just bury the number on the character page. The EOM screen would have no number, just a huge flashy green sign that says "Bonus SP remaining! YAY!" The little SP spinner would show how much bonus they got that round as it does now. I get what you're saying Saber wolf, but think about what they did with the "current player count" stat on the entry screen. You and I both know it's bullshit but the average guy has no idea. CCP knew what they were doing when they did that, and they know how to shuffle numbers around to setup the skinner box correctly.
Rogue Saint Science For Death 567	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:12:00 - [22] - Quote As someone who caps 3 chars every week I doubt I will be affected by a rollover system. I do take holidays though and would be happy to find I have not "missed" my SP pool and can then grind it at my leisure! If I took a break for a month or so and came back to a couple of million SP that would be cool too, because getting a decent reward after each match makes it more worth while. It would also be my choice if I wanted to group up with the lads to do a grind marathon, in fact it may even force people to disappear for a little while just to come back and meet up to do the grind! It also would be good for attaining that specific level of skill/suit... Play casually for a few weeks, get your SP pool up, do a grind fest with mates, get that skill/suit/weapon. As I said before, I cap out every week, so would be nice to have the option not to grind and lose SP as I can pick up the slack later. GôêGÆ+GÆ+GÆ¦ - Bringing the dakka [The whiny Scout]
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3203	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:13:00 - [23] - Quote P.S. People would complain about a rollover system as well, The Dust community always finds a reason to complain but rarely complain over things that actually need addressing.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8255	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:13:00 - [24] - Quote I think that's a superfluous problem at best. That pool is a reward, not a punishment, it's a pool that you can draw from at your leisure. It's been a long time since I've played and I can't remember how it worked anymore, but Starcraft 2 had a rollover system for their ladder and it worked great. I know it's not the same thing, but I never felt pressured to play, and I would always know what I had left in my bonus pool. They also had a form of rested XP, which is important for when you offer rollover SP. The rested XP lets you claim that massive pool faster than normal, yet you can still only claim as much SP as you have. ISK / Vids / Stream
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 1563	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:13:00 - [25] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Discuss. Yes people are never happy Tell people to stfu and deal with it lol Level 1 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. Fix PC lag please CCP.
Happy Violentime L0ST PR0FITS 146	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:14:00 - [26] - Quote It would take approx 2 months to AFK a new character up to 33mil SP? A no-lifer could do it in just over a month NB. these figures, like most on the forums were pulled out of my ass
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1398	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:17:00 - [27] - Quote The idea makes sense to me. People want the rollover system because they feel that what we have now is too grindy. So we implement rollover and suddenly those people are going to have a giant pool of bonus SP that they'll never be able to use up. Now they feel that the game is more grindy than ever. Just hiding the stat isn't going to change that.
DeadlyAztec11 2476	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:17:00 - [28] - Quote Sigberct Amni wrote: Just bury the number on the character page. The EOM screen would have no number, just a huge flashy green sign that says "Bonus SP remaining! YAY!" The little SP spinner would show how much bonus they got that round as it does now. I get what you're saying Saber wolf, but think about what they did with the "current player count" stat on the entry screen. You and I both know it's bullshit but the average guy has no idea. CCP knew what they were doing when they did that, and they know how to shuffle numbers around to setup the skinner box correctly. Exactly, CCP is not above trickery, I am not sure why now it is different. Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 470	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:20:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: HowDidThatTaste wrote: Simply put YES! If I was. A new person playing I would at least look at the20 mil Sp available as a challenge and the hopes if I tried hard enough I might catch up. As delusional as it may be. Please don't over think it for the masses allowing new players the glimmer of hope of catching up is a great thing! But lets say you started with 20 mil cap you grind grind grin and get it down to 19 mil, then decide okay time to take a break and play this newest game. You beat that game come back and now you're at 22 million untapped SP you are locked away from. This quickly turns that glimmer to hope to gloom of doom of not even being able to 'catch' up with even yourself which can compound the entire issue in playing 'catch' up with the pro players. There are many players who do play regularly and never cap out. that bonus SP is going to keep growing and growing. Moot point..... If a Player hops on an MMORPG & sees the T5 Gear & goes "Well....no point in trying to play this SH*T!!!", then they were not meant to play MMOs in the 1st place. I prefer no Max SP Rollover for obvious reasons (Devalued Investment, Booster Abuse, etc.), but I assure you there is no such thing as an MMOer hopping on & having a visual representation of the Grind ahead, especially in a "Grow Wide, not Tall" Title. Your PoV as a Wannabee Pro Casual is excessively purposeless. Go Post in the Locker Room or somewhere your incorrigible ignorance & misinformation may not be shunned
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:24:00 - [30] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: The idea makes sense to me. People want the rollover system because they feel that what we have now is too grindy. So we implement rollover and suddenly those people are going to have a giant pool of bonus SP that they'll never be able to use up. Now they feel that the game is more grindy than ever. Just hiding the stat isn't going to change that. The pressure comes from the need to grind the points NOW, BEFORE TUESDAY NIGHT! A large pool can give you the feeling that there is no cap and you can play as much or a little as you want without fear of losing something. Remember, it's the feeling of loss that hurts. People are loss averse and that's the mechanism used in a number of P2W schemes such as displaying your winnings but making you pay to keep them. As long as the points accumulate and don't evaporate there won't be a feeling of loss.

Rogue Saint Science For Death 567	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:26:00 - [31] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Moot point..... If a Player hops on an MMORPG & sees the T5 Gear & goes "Well....no point in trying to play this SH*T!!!", then they were not meant to play MMOs in the 1st place. QFT. +1 GôêGÆ+GÆ+GÆ¦ - Bringing the dakka [The whiny Scout]
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8256	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:26:00 - [32] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: The idea makes sense to me. People want the rollover system because they feel that what we have now is too grindy. So we implement rollover and suddenly those people are going to have a giant pool of bonus SP that they'll never be able to use up. Now they feel that the game is more grindy than ever. Just hiding the stat isn't going to change that. That's why you have rested SP to help speed along the process of getting back missed points. The pool would also only grow massive if they weren't playing regularly. If they play regularly, they're using up that SP, the pool barely fills. The pool is just there for your convenience, allowing you to draw from it when it's best for you. You could even introduce boosters that don't raise your SP cap like normal boosters do, but they greatly accelerate how quickly you get them, for people who don't want to work through a huge pool of SP on an alt or something. ISK / Vids / Stream
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 601	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:28:00 - [33] - Quote Maybe the unused SP would only partly carry over or would have an expiry date? Munch What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10995	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:30:00 - [34] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: The idea makes sense to me. People want the rollover system because they feel that what we have now is too grindy. So we implement rollover and suddenly those people are going to have a giant pool of bonus SP that they'll never be able to use up. Now they feel that the game is more grindy than ever. Just hiding the stat isn't going to change that. That's why you have rested SP to help speed along the process of getting back missed points. The pool would also only grow massive if they weren't playing regularly. If they play regularly, they're using up that SP, the pool barely fills. The pool is just there for your convenience, allowing you to draw from it when it's best for you. You could even introduce boosters that don't raise your SP cap like normal boosters do, but they greatly accelerate how quickly you get them, for people who don't want to work through a huge pool of SP on an alt or something. Before it was called rest EXP in world of warcraft, the bonus system was just that a bonus system, it heavily set into the notion that once this EXP bonus ran out that playing any further was greatly hampered and discourage play after two or so hours and was the most absolutely hated feature in the game. Blizzard then aptly renamed it as Rest Exp, and changed nothing of the numbers and became a loved thing. Dust 514 doesn't have this opportunity because the bonus sp and post bonus sp amounts are very far apart in terms of progression. Thus doing simple psychology trick is not going to work with roll over because soon as you eat up all of the roll over you're left with the slap on the wrist again that is dust 514's special way of saying 'you been playing too much you should stop now'. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:30:00 - [35] - Quote Poonmunch wrote: Maybe the unused SP would only partly carry over or would have an expiry date? Munch Why? Expiring the bonus pool doesn't remove the feeling of loss that the rollover system is meant to fix.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1398	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:33:00 - [36] - Quote That's the point of the discussion though. Depending on how it is implemented it could have the opposite effect from what people really wanted, not that rollover SP is inherently bad. ie: be careful what you wish for Talking about this kind of thing now keeps us from pushing for something we might wind up regretting later. I kind of stopped caring about the weekly cap once I broke 20 million SP and most of the things I wanted to train cost hundreds of thousands of SP :p
God Hates Lags Red Star. EoN. 516	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:34:00 - [37] - Quote The bigger problem to my mind is that this will give zero incentive to log on each week. Lots of players currently playing will just quit since they can always come back once the game gets better and get a full amount of SP. Also passive SP will matter less, so it will be easy enough for a payer to just start infinite alts, grind out the minimum for a spec and unlock every skill in the game over multiple accounts. In a matter of weeks. Personally I support a daily SP cap instead of a weekly one. More flexible and still gives an incentive to play. Doubles ISK
Sigberct Amni Goonfeet Top Men. 248	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:34:00 - [38] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Before it was called rest EXP in world of warcraft, the bonus system was just that a bonus system, it heavily set into the notion that once this EXP bonus ran out that playing any further was greatly hampered and discourage play after two or so hours and was the most absolutely hated feature in the game. Blizzard then aptly renamed it as Rest Exp, and changed nothing of the numbers and became a loved thing. You've got that wrong, IPS. Originally, it was a penalty system. If you played over what is now known as the 'rest' period, you took a percentage loss to exp gained. Have a look at this article.
Heavenly Daughter the Aurum Grinder and Company 215	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:34:00 - [39] - Quote I think it nonsense, you will be free to play to your hears content OR not. 1. If your the type of person that feels like things are daunting, you won't grind. lol, your choice 2. On the other hand, those who don't really care, can play a lot or a little as they see fit. 3. Lastly those who do like the challenge of grinding are then free to do so too. . __ `/.)\ Nade \| Scan Attempt Prevented \| 31 mill SP \__/ 514 \| NFP Prime League Winner\| Longest Kill 588 Mtr`
Gorra Snell The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 290	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:35:00 - [40] - Quote The more I think about it, the more I think the OP is a weak premise. When people started playing World of Warcraft they knew it was going to take a loooonnnnng time to reach max level. While that game has (had? haven't played in years) a 'rested' bonus that gave you increases xp gain for a while after not playing, it has nothing like a cap, and peaked at over 10 million players. RDVs are a failed experiment - can't we just remove them from the game?

Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 106	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:35:00 - [41] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Before it was called rest EXP in world of warcraft, the bonus system was just that a bonus system, it heavily set into the notion that once this EXP bonus ran out that playing any further was greatly hampered and discourage play after two or so hours and was the most absolutely hated feature in the game. Blizzard then aptly renamed it as Rest Exp, and changed nothing of the numbers and became a loved thing. Dust 514 doesn't have this opportunity because the bonus sp and post bonus sp amounts are very far apart in terms of progression. Thus doing simple psychology trick is not going to work with roll over because soon as you eat up all of the roll over you're left with the slap on the wrist again that is dust 514's special way of saying 'you been playing too much you should stop now'. They also had the problem of too many players competing for the same rare drops from the same quests and wanted to create a system to encourage players to be "offline". We don't have the luxury of excess players. Until we do, I do not like this idea. Once we have a problem with "too many players" then I like this idea.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10995	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:39:00 - [42] - Quote God Hates Lags wrote: The bigger problem to my mind is that this will give zero incentive to log on each week. Lots of players currently playing will just quit since they can always come back once the game gets better and get a full amount of SP. Also passive SP will matter less, so it will be easy enough for a payer to just start infinite alts, grind out the minimum for a spec and unlock every skill in the game over multiple accounts. In a matter of weeks. Personally I support a daily SP cap instead of a weekly one. More flexible and still gives an incentive to play. This in itself is a bad thing from players point of view, the sake of logging to get the exp is a bad trend, but making the gaining of exp itself an enjoyable experience is a whole nother subject. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8258	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:40:00 - [43] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Dust 514 doesn't have this opportunity because the bonus sp and post bonus sp amounts are very far apart in terms of progression. Thus doing simple psychology trick is not going to work with roll over because soon as you eat up all of the roll over you're left with the slap on the wrist again that is dust 514's special way of saying 'you been playing too much you should stop now'. Some games straight up don't let you play after a while, or totally cut you off from rewards. Having the rollover system has nothing to do with the players who grind away the days. Those players will NEVER be satisfied, even if you gave them unlimited SP they still wouldn't be satisfied because they'd max out and get bored in no time. The rollover system is about the average people who only have so much time to spare. It's allowing THEM to dictate when THEY want to play, without CCP going, too damn bad bro, that SP is gone for forever, sucks for you. Rollover system is about helping, not hurting. You could also show the bonus pool as a % or a pie chart, where 100% is equal to or greater than the number of bonus SP at login. This way if you work out, say, 50% of it, then leave long enough to accumulate an additional 25%, they would come back to a 75% full bonus pool, that does not say the actual amount of SP in that pool. If they log out long enough to accumulate another 100%, it will still only show as 100%. Once all bonus SP has been used up, this system "resets" itself, showing 100% the next time you log in. ISK / Vids / Stream
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 603	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:41:00 - [44] - Quote Skihids wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Maybe the unused SP would only partly carry over or would have an expiry date? Munch Why? Expiring the bonus pool doesn't remove the feeling of loss that the rollover system is meant to fix. You raise a fair point but there is a counter-arguement that is just as valid: The expiring excess bonus pool removes the feeling of loss caused by the current weekly SP cap. The expiration date would be a week or two so as to give people a chance to catch up if they miss a day or two of play. If there is full rollover with no expiry, players with little activity will sign on and have massively increased caps and feel helpless if they can only chip away at it 2,000 or 3,000 points per game. Also, allowing a partial carryover might be a potential solution. Munch What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:47:00 - [45] - Quote A rollover system will remove the pressure to play constantly. That's EXACTLY what it is designed to do. If you value login numbers more than the feelings of your players you won't implement a rollover system. Of course you risk driving your players away with the continuous pressure. You are using a stick rather than a carrot to get people to play your game by expiring your bonus pool. Beating your customers with a stick is not a good for the long term health of your game.
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 1818	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:49:00 - [46] - Quote We don't need no stinking rollover. If we have to get it then it needs serious accumulation limits.
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:50:00 - [47] - Quote Poonmunch wrote: Skihids wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Maybe the unused SP would only partly carry over or would have an expiry date? Munch Why? Expiring the bonus pool doesn't remove the feeling of loss that the rollover system is meant to fix. You raise a fair point but there is a counter-arguement that is just as valid: The expiring excess bonus pool removes the feeling of loss caused by the current weekly SP cap. The expiration date would be a week or two so as to give people a chance to catch up if they miss a day or two of play. If there is full rollover with no expiry, players with little activity will sign on and have massively increased caps and feel helpless if they can only chip away at it 2,000 or 3,000 points per game. Also, allowing a partial carryover might be a potential solution. Munch I don't understand this feeling of helplessness you speak of. Would you feel helpless if you had no cap? Would you quit the game if CCP removed the cap entirely?
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:00:00 - [48] - Quote I think the key here is that people shouldn't feel pressure to drain their bonus pool. Rather they should be encouraged to see it as a limit that is best kept off in the distance. After all, it's CCP's way of saying "Stop playing!"
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 471	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:05:00 - [49] - Quote God Hates Lags wrote: The bigger problem to my mind is that this will give zero incentive to log on each week. Lots of players currently playing will just quit since they can always come back once the game gets better and get a full amount of SP. Also passive SP will matter less, so it will be easy enough for a payer to just start infinite alts, grind out the minimum for a spec and unlock every skill in the game over multiple accounts. In a matter of weeks. Personally I support a daily SP cap instead of a weekly one. More flexible and still gives an incentive to play. We had a Daily SP Cap......it was bad. You are bad & should feel bad about it.
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:12:00 - [50] - Quote God Hates Lags wrote: The bigger problem to my mind is that this will give zero incentive to log on each week. Lots of players currently playing will just quit since they can always come back once the game gets better and get a full amount of SP. Also passive SP will matter less, so it will be easy enough for a payer to just start infinite alts, grind out the minimum for a spec and unlock every skill in the game over multiple accounts. In a matter of weeks. Personally I support a daily SP cap instead of a weekly one. More flexible and still gives an incentive to play. Are you proposing that the main incentive to play this game should be the fear of loss? Honestly? All stick and no carrot?

Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 471	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:16:00 - [51] - Quote Sigberct Amni wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Before it was called rest EXP in world of warcraft, the bonus system was just that a bonus system, it heavily set into the notion that once this EXP bonus ran out that playing any further was greatly hampered and discourage play after two or so hours and was the most absolutely hated feature in the game. Blizzard then aptly renamed it as Rest Exp, and changed nothing of the numbers and became a loved thing. You've got that wrong, IPS. Originally, it was a penalty system. If you played over what is now known as the 'rest' period, you took a percentage loss to exp gained. Have a look at this article. IWS spewing misinformations about another Game he, as usual, knows nothing about. Then proven wrong by an actual Gamer....nothing new to see here, moving right along
Evolution-7 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 229	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:19:00 - [52] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Discuss. Side Note: The 'design' of the roll over system in question is left ambiguous on purpose, so feel free to introduce your solutions or a design of it for the discussion. Maybe increase the amount of SP earnt with a percentage in proportion to how much you have left. Veteran Pilot "Fight on and fly on to the last drop of blood and the last drop of fuel, to the last beat of the heart."
trollface dot jpg The Bacon Corporation 113	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:42:00 - [53] - Quote Solution: Catch up booster. The more SP you have rolled over, the faster you gain SP. As you earn it, the SP you gain per match drops until you are within a weeks worth of SP left at which point it reverts to the normal 1.5%. As to how you scale it, I leave that to people less sleepy than I, but that's the best way to solve the issue. Either grind it out the hard way or pay to make it take less time. My other Alt is your mom.
Dimmu Borgir II The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 180	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:46:00 - [54] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Discuss. Side Note: The 'design' of the roll over system in question is left ambiguous on purpose, so feel free to introduce your solutions or a design of it for the discussion. Why would it matter how much untapped SP a person has? If I saw 2 million available bonus SP I'd be happy as a clam! All this would mean is that when he/she has the time to play a lot of dust, it's not gonna only earn him/her SP for two days... That's the benefit of the rollover, for people that don't get to play all day, every day. Blue is good, red is bad, orange you glad you're not red?
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 659	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:53:00 - [55] - Quote I posted this here in a previous thread: Vell0cet wrote: ...First I agree with new players having 0 cap until some level is established (somewhere around 2-5 million SP). Next I would like to see a decay mechanism implemented for the SP rollover. You have your weekly SP pool that can benefit from boosters as well as a bank that (a. either canGÇÖt be boosted, or b. can be boosted with a different booster that has a reduced maybe 1.3x active SP). Every week the unused weekly SP is dumped into the bank and all SP in the bank is reduced by some percent (say -20%). Your weekly pool will be drained first, and only until you cap out will you start to burn through your banked SP. Events would only affect the weekly SP and not any banked SP. This system has the benefit of rewarding/incentivizing regular gameplay, but giving people who have taken a break an increased incentive to return and play to help catch up. The following is an example of someone who takes a 8 week vacation from DUST with a 20% decay rate: Week 1: 190,000 Weekly SP not used Week 2: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 190,000 banked, 0 SP destroyed Week 3: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 342,000 banked, 38,000 SP destroyed Week 4: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 463,600 banked, 68,400 SP destroyed Week 5: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 560,880 banked, 92,720 SP destroyed Week 6: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 638,704 banked, 112,176 SP destroyed Week 7: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 700,963 banked, 127,741 SP destroyed Week 8: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 750,771 banked, 146,193 SP destroyed Week 9: 190,000 Weekly SP IS USED, 790,616 in bank, 150,154 SP will be destroyed if bank isnGÇÖt depleted LetGÇÖs assume the player takes a week off work and grinds up her weekly SP plus her full banked SP. She will have 980,616 SP from the weekly SP + the banked SP. If she had capped out every week she would have 1,710,000 SP over those same 9 weeks (excluding boosters). I think this is a reasonable gap that is enough to incentivize play without punishing people who miss a week or two very harshly, but still allow for players to catch up a significant amount of SP when they come back. If the player ran a "Banked SP Booster" (assuming a boost rate of 1.3X), she could have closed that gap, receiving 1,217,801 SP on week 9. The key to the new booster is that it must never be advantageous (i.e. cheaper) to bank up SP over keeping up with the regular Cap, but could provide additional revenue for CCP that would otherwise not be there. Decaying weekly pool is the way to go for many reasons. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Kahn Zo Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 130	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:06:00 - [56] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber, I believe it your OP comes down to who is the target audience for this. If "I" am your target, then I will respond to. As you have already opened the discussion of, I think there are other factors to consider to "blend" with the idea of. I am a new guy to the game. Been playing since early September. The "grind" to actually be equipped enough to compete and contribute to vets is gruesome. At only 5mil sp in 7 weeks has been daunting. I am just getting to a point that I feel some what confident going into battle with out my ass getting handed to me. I am just starting to close in, break even in my KDR. I am a Scout hacker uplink sniper / counter sniper 99.7% of the time. In regards to SP, SP bonus. My pattern has been Wednesday morning to Friday (usually) grind it all down to zero when I get to play in that time frame of days. But it is usually exhausted by Friday evening. After the bonus is depleted, I just casually jump on when I "feel" like it. No more incentive to meat grind till next Wednesday. As a new guy, an SP bonus roll over would allow me to spread it out. Not worry about capping it out in due time. But I will always grind it down, because i want to be equipped just as good as the other guy. I think, (and just seeing what is offered in promotions), SP boosters of different levels, %, that players can purchase to accelerate, add to SP would certainly benefit a target like me. I plan on purchasing the omega SP booster just to get more SP than I can already get. I understand that seasoned players, Vets, etc. want the grind be the grind for the new people. I would too if I had 20mil SP and can do whatever I want to spec into. I understand. I understand the Vets want me to earn it, just like they did. I get it. But, that is also a double edge sword. Vets with the haves , newberries with the havenots, and expect to play together on the same playing field. On top of that, CCP needs coin to run this game. It is a business. A business to make money. There will be tit for tat implemented to retain players, attract new players, appease the vet players. That is a tough balance. I see it all the time here on the forum and in game. So, I am CCP's focus and current target audience. I have expendable cash. I will gladly spend it, in return I will be entertained in my own spare, free time as I see fit. I would gladly pay for~ A respec Omega type SP boosters at various % tiers weapons ( I do already) weapons parts (scopes, barrels, triggers, bipods, etc.) gadgets (I do already) Personalized suit gadgets (cloaks, jump boots, deflectors, etc.) Personalized suits that level up as I do. (camo, slots, gadgets) sorry, just rambling... off the cuff. I am not good at this kind of thing. But, at this point of me in this game, I am starting to feel passionate about it as my investment in time, currency, enjoyment continues to enthrall in this game. SP roll over? For me, a new guy, that can use a lil help in regards of? sure. I'll take all the help I can get. I like this game. I'm in. :) blah, rant over. o7 Pure Gallente
Taeryn Frost Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 133	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:22:00 - [57] - Quote I have to agree with IWS. I've been playing since launched and capped every week and every event. Not because I wanted to grind or felt I had to, but because I liked playing. Then the 3x SP event from a few weeks back occurred. I'm not a top player, so I couldn't manage to play enough pubstomp matches to reach the cap. I didn't need the SP, but it was a bit disheartening. Since then I haven't hit cap once and my playtime has steadily declined. I can't even attribute not making the 3x cap for playing less; however, there was so much grind I guess I lost some of the enjoyment I used to feel.
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:31:00 - [58] - Quote We don't need to earn our bonus SP at a higher rate just because we have a larger pool. That would open up any number of negative behaviors such as not playing for days or weeks so you can play less for the same SP total or running many alts to do the same thing. Simply have a growing bonus pool that has to be earned the same way everyone else has earned it, by playing. At this point the only function of cap is to pace the individual's progress. If you want to take five years to completely max out the skill tree, then it will be a minimum of five years from character creation to that point, and it will also be the same in game play time to earn it. Boosters won't be affected if you simply alter "Active" boosters to affect a certain number of points. In one stroke you make the booster worth a fixed amount, not altered by the density of your playing. Nobody can then grind 10M SP on a three day booster and someone with a 30 day booster who has to go away for a week won't feel they are wasting it.
Skihids Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 2471	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:35:00 - [59] - Quote Taeryn Frost wrote: I have to agree with IWS. I've been playing since launched and capped every week and every event. Not because I wanted to grind or felt I had to, but because I liked playing. Then the 3x SP event from a few weeks back occurred. I'm not a top player, so I couldn't manage to play enough pubstomp matches to reach the cap. I didn't need the SP, but it was a bit disheartening. Since then I haven't hit cap once and my playtime has steadily declined. I can't even attribute not making the 3x cap for playing less; however, there was so much grind I guess I lost some of the enjoyment I used to feel. That burnout is a result of long term pressure to cap out or lose some valuable commodity. You wouldn't have felt that way if it weren't for months of constant pressure. When you finally broke did you feel a sense of relief? That's what using a short term cap does to people over the long term. It wears them down.
Miokai Zahou Film Actors Guilds 62	Posted - 2013.12.03 23:06:00 - [60] - Quote Why not just implement the SP rollover system and those that cap out as normal per week get an extra bonus at the end of the match in FW points included with the SP earnt? Think outside the box people! Currently as it is once I cap out I have no incentive to log on as every match I finish is always going to be 1500sp but if FW points where added too...

deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 116	Posted - 2013.12.03 23:09:00 - [61] - Quote Yes tthere should be limitations on what someone can gain, both to support CCPs business model and prevent people from gaming the system, but what it comes down to is applying changes to the current system still leaves the broken dynamic of said system. I feel like the entire SP system needs to be reevaluated to find a fix for the cap problem not just try to adapt it. My not very well thought out idea: Remove SP gained for sitting in battle. Apply a sliding scale that multiplies the SP on players who have a lower WP count. Example: Player A scores 1000 WP, comes in first and receives 1200 WP (times 1.2) Player B scores 75 WP, comes in last and receives 750 WP (times 10) This would place a lot more value on boosters while giving new players the chance to move up quicker as well. If they still wanted to implement some sort of cap then they could penalize the multiplier at X amount per week (player A receives a .8 multiplier instead for example) Some rebalancing of the skill tree would be needed but a system such as this has much better long term use. This is only the idea that I came up with for this thread to try to inspire people to come up with their own ideas outside of the current system.
Cosgar ParagonX 8273	Posted - 2013.12.03 23:31:00 - [62] - Quote Personally, I just want a system that doesn't punish players for not playing. Be it rollover SP, 100% passive SP gains or an entirely different system that ensures people gain the same amount of SP, I'm all for it. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.12.03 23:37:00 - [63] - Quote I'm for an all passive system. One character accrues sp at 48000 sp a day. You still have the passive booster to increase the accrual rate by 1.5. Active boosters instead turn into a PLEX type object that allows the 48000 sp to apply to another character concurrently for the duration of the booster. This booster can also be modified by the 1.5x booster. Active sp is what causes the grind to be a grind. Do away with it entirely. Tiericide will need to be done before this is implemented, so that new players aren't constantly at a disadvantage.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2621	Posted - 2013.12.04 10:19:00 - [64] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Discuss. Side Note: The 'design' of the roll over system in question is left ambiguous on purpose, so feel free to introduce your solutions or a design of it for the discussion. This may actually be the dumbest thing I ever read on these forums. Rollover SP is bad because players might actually use it? Are you mental?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2621	Posted - 2013.12.04 10:23:00 - [65] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: HowDidThatTaste wrote: Simply put YES! If I was. A new person playing I would at least look at the20 mil Sp available as a challenge and the hopes if I tried hard enough I might catch up. As delusional as it may be. Please don't over think it for the masses allowing new players the glimmer of hope of catching up is a great thing! But lets say you started with 20 mil cap you grind grind grin and get it down to 19 mil, then decide okay time to take a break and play this newest game. You beat that game come back and now you're at 22 million untapped SP you are locked away from. This quickly turns that glimmer to hope to gloom of doom of not even being able to 'catch' up with even yourself which can compound the entire issue in playing 'catch' up with the pro players. There are many players who do play regularly and never cap out. that bonus SP is going to keep growing and growing. Unless you are one of those people who thinks you are gipped for getting 1/5 piece instead of 2/10, this is a non issue. The alternative is instead of being 20 mil in the hole, you simply are ALWAYS 20 mil behind. In other words, you want to perpetually **** on new players instead of even giving them a chance to ever catch up.
CRAZYHORSE ONE EIGHT CowTek IT Infotech 53	Posted - 2013.12.04 10:47:00 - [66] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. I don't think players are that stupid.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2621	Posted - 2013.12.04 10:48:00 - [67] - Quote CRAZYHORSE ONE EIGHT wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. I don't think players are that stupid. IWS be projecting.
Captain-Awesome Imperfects Negative-Feedback 536	Posted - 2013.12.04 10:49:00 - [68] - Quote I think it's a good idea, but this game has much much bigger issues to worry about than sp grinding. Namely the fact that there is nothing to do other than shoot face.
TERMINALANCE Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 220	Posted - 2013.12.04 10:51:00 - [69] - Quote IWS is a hack and brings nothing to dust or ccp. Don't look into anything he says or does as having even the most finite amount of thought or intelligence behind it, he has none to bring to the table. He has always been a posterchild for what is wrong with CCP's mindset and dust's development.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11008	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:02:00 - [70] - Quote I am not sure what's lower? The comments some of these folks are making or the intellect behind failing to understand that there does need to be a careful consideration if ever to design such system. That the overall objective of this thread is to stir conversation that may not only recognize additional faults but conclude to potential fixes and considerations to take in while implementing such system. A haphazardly implemented good idea no matter how good at first on paper will ever be just as effective as poorly made ideas. I mean look at all the complaints about the SP events and the irate feeling behind most of them. There is a common theme there, a theme that I hate to say it is exceptionally no different from the roll over SP system if implemented in such manner. I mean why else would I start a thread over the subject now? is it because I have a chance to suggest the system? am I actually meeting resistance from the developers? I know inquiring minds would like to know but alas. I shall retain those cards in my possession and not play them. Call troll all you want but trolls only seek hated responses, I am just fishing for good talks here. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked

Yagihige Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 417	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:18:00 - [71] - Quote I would think the solution would be simple. Just settle a maximum amount of SP that can be accumulated with the rollover. Once it reaches that amount, it stops accumulating. Let's suppose the maximum equal the amount of 3 weeks SP, 570k. So, perhaps i would not play this week. Next week i'd have 380k available to earn. I'd play but not enough to earn all that SP. I'd end that week with 250k SP left. The week after i have 440k available. I don't play that week, so next week i don't get 190k more, just the remaining until the rollover cap, 570k SP. I could be gone for an holiday for 3 weeks and still come back and earn those SP points. I also wouldn't need to earn them all in that week after i get back, i could just manage the points i earn and slowly lower it. Say i get back from a 3 week break, i'll have 570k waiting for me, i earn 200k SP that week, next week i'll have 560k available. That week i play a little more and earn 300k SP. The week after i have 450k available. I just play enough to get 100k that week. But that's ok because next week i'll have 540k available and still below the rollover limit. This would let me manage exactly how much i want to play each week and put a very reasonable limit on how much you accrue. EDIT: The limit could be higher, of course. If instead of 3 weeks it was a month, the rollover cap would be 950k SP. em ta kool t'nod
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11008	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:20:00 - [72] - Quote Well here is another bone to throw into the pile, Someone mentioned monetizing this pool, I am somewhat against this under various types of offerings (like doubling the pool) but I am willing to break over it provided that its a fair purchase. With this bone in the mix what are you guys thoughts to it or how would you implement or not? CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2621	Posted - 2013.12.04 11:41:00 - [73] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well here is another bone to throw into the pile, Someone mentioned monetizing this pool, I am somewhat against this under various types of offerings (like doubling the pool) but I am willing to break over it provided that its a fair purchase. With this bone in the mix what are you guys thoughts to it or how would you implement or not? The SP system is broken. My stance hasn't changed much and you know where to find it. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=732017 To suggest that rollover SP would hurt the game is only a sideways method of acknowledging the system is broken but mis-attributing the cause.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1279	Posted - 2013.12.04 12:01:00 - [74] - Quote Make the game fun and SP isn't a problem. We need things to do not more things to complain about and argue over. I would rather see something added that will make the game more enjoyable instead of pandering to a bunch of players over something that isn't even needed. We need content not more convoluted SP schemes. I don't care about the SP or if someone didn't make cap. That is their problem. The games problems doesn't have to do with SP it has to do with content. Lets focus on that instead of trying to change the SP system for a few players that FEEL like they are missing something. Make the stupid game fun. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4301	Posted - 2013.12.04 12:16:00 - [75] - Quote Easy, increase SP payouts the higher your cap is. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2621	Posted - 2013.12.04 12:55:00 - [76] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Easy, increase SP payouts the higher your cap is. But then you'd be ... REWARDING inactivity? What's next, AFKing in the MCC? You know not what you ask for!
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 903	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:00:00 - [77] - Quote IWS completely right to state that an on-going SP rollover would end up giving the impression that if that figure doesn't go down then you just aren't grinding hard enough. This is not a good impression to give to casuals - as they'll make up the bulk of the players of the game. And in MMOs: other players are the the content so we want as many as possible! I suggested a long time ago a constantly regenerating pool of active SP: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=462915#post462915 Quote: 1) Have an active SP reward pool which is the size of a weeks worth of SP, which with the current limits would be 190,400 SP. 2) Active SP rewards deplete this pool, as they do now. 3) Each tick of 30 minutes 566 SP are added back into the SP reward pool. 4) The pool never goes above the maximum size of 190,400 SP 5) Once empty, no rewards (or a nominal reward) is given). Pros: A) Whether you play weekly or daily, you have the opportunity to achieve the same number of active SP rewards from your plays. -- You can spread your 10 hours per week over the entire week, playing each day. Or you can have a marathon weekend and do it all in one go! B) No matter how much you have played, you will always have some more SP that you can earn the next day. A full day's worth of SP in fact. -- Even if you've earned an entire week's worth of active SP reward in the previous 2 days, you don't have to wait for a weekly reset day before it is worth playing some more C) No waiting for a reset at down time before, just wait 30 minutes! It's worth noting that this method is already used by many MMO, one great example being UrbanDead found at: http://www.urbandead.com/faq.html#50ap You can also balance the pool size and regen rate to taste. SP boosters could then do what AUR items allow: give you better match SP rewards to shorten the grind to cap out. The main affect is to allow players to carry over some active SP they didn't earn yet (to a point) whilst removing the concept of a reset day. The cap on the pool size means that players who rarely cap out won't see an every increasing SP pool. Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4305	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:01:00 - [78] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Easy, increase SP payouts the higher your cap is. But then you'd be ... REWARDING inactivity? What's next, AFKing in the MCC? You know not what you ask for! You still gain the same overall SP. I don't see the problem. If done right they would have to grind just as many matches to cap out as people who cap out weekly. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 825	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:05:00 - [79] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Your thoughts on careful design? Discuss. Side Note: The 'design' of the roll over system in question is left ambiguous on purpose, so feel free to introduce your solutions or a design of it for the discussion. Who the hell would have 20 million bonus Sp laying around? Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 825	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:07:00 - [80] - Quote To keep the bonus sp from getting impossibly large, you could slow down bonus SP pool growth after a certain amount so that the player feels like he is impacting the pool Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.

Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 825	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:18:00 - [81] - Quote After some thinking and calculations, I believe you should limit the maximum size of the bonus SP pool to 5 mil sp. My math: 1 match being 20 minutes (skirmish/dom) for 4k sp 5 million / 4k = 1250 matches to deplete (not accounting for additional growth) 1250 matches @ 20 minutes = 25,000 minutes 25,000 minutes = 416 Hours At 4 hours a day it would take 104 days to grind it down (3 months) If you are playing 6 hours a day it would take 70 Days to grind it down. (2 months) If you are playing 12 hours a day it would take 35 days to grind it down. ( 1 month) Another benefit of the roll-over system is that CCP will sell many more 30 day sp boosters Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 903	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:26:00 - [82] - Quote ^^That doesn't address the concern than casual players (who rarely cap out) will hardly depart far from the SP pool maximum at all. Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 600	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:47:00 - [83] - Quote Yagihige wrote: I would think the solution would be simple. Just settle a maximum amount of SP that can be accumulated with the rollover. Once it reaches that amount, it stops accumulating. Let's suppose the maximum equal the amount of 3 weeks SP, 570k. So, perhaps i would not play this week. Next week i'd have 380k available to earn. I'd play but not enough to earn all that SP. I'd end that week with 250k SP left. The week after i have 440k available. I don't play that week, so next week i don't get 190k more, just the remaining until the rollover cap, 570k SP. I could be gone for an holiday for 3 weeks and still come back and earn those SP points. I also wouldn't need to earn them all in that week after i get back, i could just manage the points i earn and slowly lower it. Say i get back from a 3 week break, i'll have 570k waiting for me, i earn 200k SP that week, next week i'll have 560k available. That week i play a little more and earn 300k SP. The week after i have 450k available. I just play enough to get 100k that week. But that's ok because next week i'll have 540k available and still below the rollover limit. This would let me manage exactly how much i want to play each week and put a very reasonable limit on how much you accrue. EDIT: The limit could be higher, of course. If instead of 3 weeks it was a month, the rollover cap would be 950k SP. Did I really have to read through 4 pages of drivel to find this ^^ ... the original proposed SP rollover system. It's not ment to be a system to allow a new player to 'catch up' to the vets ... it was ment to be a system that allowed you to take a break, go on holiday, not feel like it was a job you had to turn up to every day (or every week as it is now with the weekly cap). The roll over should simply roll over a week, 2 weeks or whatever period of SP caps so your progress progress isn't completely lost if you don't cap out 1 week. People here who want to be able to 'catch up to the vets' want an uncapped system with a rolling maximum a character is allowed to have. THIS IS NOT an sp rollover since no sp is being rolled over a cap ... sp is just being built up in a pot (equal for everyone) to earn uncapped as and when they feel like. What Yagihige has explained here is the only viable option for an sp rollover system with variables like how many weeks can be rolled over and whether or not there is a slight increase in gain for banked sp.
Minako Nakajima Vortex State Empire Dark Taboo 49	Posted - 2013.12.04 13:55:00 - [84] - Quote TROLLOLLMINATI "Looks can kill." // Terminally Insane
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 188	Posted - 2013.12.04 14:11:00 - [85] - Quote The bonus SP pool is not the problem. The problem is the hard 1000SP cap. Make this 'normal' rate higher and the sporadic players and the marathon grinders will not care if they are now earning 5000SP instead of 10000SP, because they are definitely not happy with 1000SP from that same long Skirmish or Domination. We don't need complex bonus mechanisms if the 'normal' rate is fair. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1304	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:30:00 - [86] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: HowDidThatTaste wrote: Simply put YES! If I was. A new person playing I would at least look at the20 mil Sp available as a challenge and the hopes if I tried hard enough I might catch up. As delusional as it may be. Please don't over think it for the masses allowing new players the glimmer of hope of catching up is a great thing! But lets say you started with 20 mil cap you grind grind grin and get it down to 19 mil, then decide okay time to take a break and play this newest game. You beat that game come back and now you're at 22 million untapped SP you are locked away from. This quickly turns that glimmer to hope to gloom of doom of not even being able to 'catch' up with even yourself which can compound the entire issue in playing 'catch' up with the pro players. There are many players who do play regularly and never cap out. that bonus SP is going to keep growing and growing. Huh? That makes no sense why would you or anyone tell me or any player how he might feel about having the opportunity to catchup? Right now you are telling players you will never be able to catch up . how is that working out for player retention? You are saying that you would be concerned that the average player could not handle the fact he has a lot of playing to do to catch up. Or that if we didn't have it like we didnt tell him like we do now he is too stupid to find out that he can never catch up? Agreed, HDTT. I appreciate the concern for the NPE, but I don't get IWS's objection in this case. For a new player, hardcore or casual, a large pool of rollover sp would be encouraging, not discouraging. The implicit message would be 'You can, in principle, catch up. And you can do it on your own time - you don't have to stress about scheduling or interruptions, and you don't have to feel like you're clocking into a second job every night. The choice of how and when and how much you play is entirely left to your discretion, because we value and respect you as a customer.' And that, to me, is the whole point of this conversation. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1304	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:43:00 - [87] - Quote Skihids wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: The idea makes sense to me. People want the rollover system because they feel that what we have now is too grindy. So we implement rollover and suddenly those people are going to have a giant pool of bonus SP that they'll never be able to use up. Now they feel that the game is more grindy than ever. Just hiding the stat isn't going to change that. The pressure comes from the need to grind the points NOW, BEFORE TUESDAY NIGHT! A large pool can give you the feeling that there is no cap and you can play as much or a little as you want without fear of losing something. Remember, it's the feeling of loss that hurts. People are loss averse and that's the mechanism used in a number of P2W schemes such as displaying your winnings but making you pay to keep them. As long as the points accumulate and don't evaporate there won't be a feeling of loss. ^ +1 to Skihids for the core observation. Having a pool of sp available to you at your discretion vs. watching/racing the clock so you don't forever miss out on sp are completely different experiences. The first promises reward for your efforts when you can afford the time, the second offers punishment for prioritizing RL duties, friends, family, etc. What is the upside of the punishment model? None so far as i can see. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1304	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:57:00 - [88] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Yagihige wrote: I would think the solution would be simple. Just settle a maximum amount of SP that can be accumulated with the rollover. Once it reaches that amount, it stops accumulating. Let's suppose the maximum equal the amount of 3 weeks SP, 570k. So, perhaps i would not play this week. Next week i'd have 380k available to earn. I'd play but not enough to earn all that SP. I'd end that week with 250k SP left. The week after i have 440k available. I don't play that week, so next week i don't get 190k more, just the remaining until the rollover cap, 570k SP. I could be gone for an holiday for 3 weeks and still come back and earn those SP points. I also wouldn't need to earn them all in that week after i get back, i could just manage the points i earn and slowly lower it. Say i get back from a 3 week break, i'll have 570k waiting for me, i earn 200k SP that week, next week i'll have 560k available. That week i play a little more and earn 300k SP. The week after i have 450k available. I just play enough to get 100k that week. But that's ok because next week i'll have 540k available and still below the rollover limit. This would let me manage exactly how much i want to play each week and put a very reasonable limit on how much you accrue. EDIT: The limit could be higher, of course. If instead of 3 weeks it was a month, the rollover cap would be 950k SP. Did I really have to read through 4 pages of drivel to find this ^^ ... the original proposed SP rollover system. It's not ment to be a system to allow a new player to 'catch up' to the vets ... it was ment to be a system that allowed you to take a break, go on holiday, not feel like it was a job you had to turn up to every day (or every week as it is now with the weekly cap). The roll over should simply roll over a week, 2 weeks or whatever period of SP caps so your progress progress isn't completely lost if you don't cap out 1 week. People here who want to be able to 'catch up to the vets' want an uncapped system with a rolling maximum a character is allowed to have. THIS IS NOT an sp rollover since no sp is being rolled over a cap ... sp is just being built up in a pot (equal for everyone) to earn uncapped as and when they feel like. What Yagihige has explained here is the only viable option for an sp rollover system with variables like how many weeks can be rolled over and whether or not there is a slight increase in gain for banked sp. I agree with you in terms of what a rollover system should be, but ITT i'm purposely ignoring the technical details of the rollover system because IWS's OP is talking about player experience. His concerns seem totally off the mark to me - the entire motivation for the rollover system is to provide a better experience for CCP's customers, and to eliminate the negative aspects of the current weekly cap system which is one of several factors driving new & old players away from this game. Rollover is in the best interests of the players, of CCP, of DUST and of New Eden. This is very clear to myself and many others. If CCP is in this for the long run they are going to have to find ways to provide a positive customer experience. It's as simple as that. I support SP rollover.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1842	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:08:00 - [89] - Quote So the community wants the SP to rollover The majority agree that it would be a good idea and that new players and old can benefit from it and no harm would ever come from such an idea Somehow IWS thinks this is a bad idea IWS - Not representing the DUST community since it began
4447 Resolution XIII 901	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:11:00 - [90] - Quote Roll over cap should be 1 million. EDIT; i'm off to cure aids Troll, For lifeGÇª But maybe a dragon, uh a bigger dragon.

Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 602	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:18:00 - [91] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: IWS - Not representing the DUST community since it began EXACTLY !!! ... seeing as how the CPM wasn't created when the DUST community began I'd have to say 'The entire CPM - not representing the DUST community since it began' Better still 'Takahiro - spouting crap since (sorry what's your date of birth?)'
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1842	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:40:00 - [92] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: IWS - Not representing the DUST community since it began EXACTLY !!! ... seeing as how the CPM wasn't created when the DUST community began I'd have to say 'The entire CPM - not representing the DUST community since it began' Better still 'Takahiro - spouting crap since (sorry what's your date of birth?)' U mad bro?
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1304	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:40:00 - [93] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So the community wants the SP to rollover The majority agree that it would be a good idea and that new players and old can benefit from it and no harm would ever come from such an idea Somehow IWS thinks this is a bad idea IWS - Not representing the DUST community since it began Disagree. His methods may be inflammatory, but it's a discussion that contributes to the rollover conversation. If CCP had any doubts about why the playerbase wants rollover implemented this thread certainly clears that up. The only fear i have is that when CCP implements rollover they do something as harmful as the passive in-match sp dole has been - without bouncing it off the playerbase first(<- this isn't bitching, it's speaking from experience). I support SP rollover.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 602	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:45:00 - [94] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: IWS - Not representing the DUST community since it began EXACTLY !!! ... seeing as how the CPM wasn't created when the DUST community began I'd have to say 'The entire CPM - not representing the DUST community since it began' Better still 'Takahiro - spouting crap since (sorry what's your date of birth?)' U mad bro? No ... just tired of seeing you spouting crap like that to grab peoples attention ... what's up, not get enough attention IRL ?
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1304	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:49:00 - [95] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well here is another bone to throw into the pile, Someone mentioned monetizing this pool, I am somewhat against this under various types of offerings (like doubling the pool) but I am willing to break over it provided that its a fair purchase. With this bone in the mix what are you guys thoughts to it or how would you implement or not? I think with something like monetizing the sp pool the devil is definitely in the details. I think to rationally assess a monetization scheme for rollover the entire specification of a proposed rollover system would have to be laid out in black and white. Edit: I would say that i'm not against rollover monetization in principle. I don't think this thread is place to do that, it would muddy the conversation too much. As far as your original question/concern goes i would say give this thread a couple more days, but the community's answer is already loud and clear and a couple more days is not likely to change that. I support SP rollover.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1842	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:51:00 - [96] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: IWS - Not representing the DUST community since it began EXACTLY !!! ... seeing as how the CPM wasn't created when the DUST community began I'd have to say 'The entire CPM - not representing the DUST community since it began' Better still 'Takahiro - spouting crap since (sorry what's your date of birth?)' U mad bro? No ... just tired of seeing you spouting crap like that to grab peoples attention ... what's up, not get enough attention IRL ? Only attention i seem to have got is yours yet again
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 407	Posted - 2013.12.04 17:00:00 - [97] - Quote I may be in the minority but I'm pretty ambivalent about SP roll-over. As a buddy of mine said, "this isn't AT&T". Fundamentally, most folks play a fairly consistent amount each week whether it's a lot or little or in between. With SP rollover If you cap in 3 days...no change. If you take the full week to cap then no change. If you routinely don't make cap then you will routinley not cap that weeks SP pool. I think the bigger issue is giving guys that cap out more incentive to keep playing after cap. I do acknowldege that having roll over system would give you some flexibility and probably would be a welcome addition to some parts of the player base. My recommendation on that would be to offer 50% of the remaining pool of SP as rollover SP and that SP would only have the half-life of the next week. Example: I have 50K SP left at the end of the week, I get 25K rollover SP for the next week, if I use it great...if I don't it goes away. Reference my point about incentivizing players once they cap...that should trigger a small but noticable increase in ISK and/or LP production. For example..I usually cap on Sunday; this would further incentivize me to put more playing time into the game until the weekly reset. I think increased LP production would be a particulalry nice theme...you really are fighting out of some level of loyalty to your faction or corp when there's no SP involved (unless you're broke and grinding for ISK!).
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1306	Posted - 2013.12.04 17:10:00 - [98] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I may be in the minority but I'm pretty ambivalent about SP roll-over. As a buddy of mine said, "this isn't AT&T". Fundamentally, most folks play a fairly consistent amount each week whether it's a lot or little or in between. With SP rollover If you cap in 3 days...no change. If you take the full week to cap then no change. If you routinely don't make cap then you will routinley not cap that weeks SP pool. I think the bigger issue is giving guys that cap out more incentive to keep playing after cap. I do acknowldege that having roll over system would give you some flexibility and probably would be a welcome addition to some parts of the player base. My recommendation on that would be to offer 50% of the remaining pool of SP as rollover SP and that SP would only have the half-life of the next week. Example: I have 50K SP left at the end of the week, I get 25K rollover SP for the next week, if I use it great...if I don't it goes away. Reference my point about incentivizing players once they cap...that should trigger a small but noticable increase in ISK and/or LP production. For example..I usually cap on Sunday; this would further incentivize me to put more playing time into the game until the weekly reset. I think increased LP production would be a particulalry nice theme...you really are fighting out of some level of loyalty to your faction or corp when there's no SP involved (unless you're broke and grinding for ISK!). I like the idea of an incentive after you cap your sp. Maybe a bonus to ISK payout, or a FW bonus, or a salvage quality bonus. Or maybe a bonus to next week's cap lol. I support SP rollover.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 381	Posted - 2013.12.04 17:50:00 - [99] - Quote Who needs a rollover system if you dont have a cap. Cap serves no purpose other than to hold back the hardcore and increase the grind of the casuals. Cap also gives CCP money because it allows people to get additional SP every cap period. This could be still be attained through boosters. Not sure if it would increase or decease booster consumption with no cap. I would bank on increase of 30 day boosters. Remove the cap, solve all the problems. Put a ceiling on the amount of SP you can have banked (total amount of SP to get all skills to 5 + 1mil) so that when new skills come out, vets cant just have a bank of SP waiting to allocate. Could also implement an hourly bonus daily instead of log in bonus. For one hour every day all SP earned in battle is doubled. Would drive at least hourly daily play instead of logging in and logging out. The truth is, after the first 10-15 mil or so, people start branching into another suit/role/weapon. So it would only allow people to become more flexible in their suits and always allow people to have a lot more fun. Running the same suit for months and months gets reeaaallly boring, and frustrating. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Twitch
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11022	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:41:00 - [100] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Who needs a rollover system if you dont have a cap. Cap serves no purpose other than to hold back the hardcore and increase the grind of the casuals. Cap also gives CCP money because it allows people to get additional SP every cap period. This could be still be attained through boosters. Not sure if it would increase or decease booster consumption with no cap. I would bank on increase of 30 day boosters. Remove the cap, solve all the problems. Put a ceiling on the amount of SP you can have banked (total amount of SP to get all skills to 5 + 1mil) so that when new skills come out, vets cant just have a bank of SP waiting to allocate. Could also implement an hourly bonus daily instead of log in bonus. For one hour every day all SP earned in battle is doubled. Would drive at least hourly daily play instead of logging in and logging out. The truth is, after the first 10-15 mil or so, people start branching into another suit/role/weapon. So it would only allow people to become more flexible in their suits and always allow people to have a lot more fun. Running the same suit for months and months gets reeaaallly boring, and frustrating. Going capless does have its appeals and it own set of problems mind you and would nullify roll over system to that of a rest sp system instead. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked

Soldiersaint Deepspace Digital 604	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:44:00 - [101] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Your thoughts on careful design? Discuss. Side Note: The 'design' of the roll over system in question is left ambiguous on purpose, so feel free to introduce your solutions or a design of it for the discussion. Why do people have this thing that they need to hit the cap. Its serves no purpose. we will all catch no matter what.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8337	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:49:00 - [102] - Quote Going capless would basically be the worst thing, rewarding no lifers and punishing those who can't be plugged into the game at all times. Win ISK / Vids / O7
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11023	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:51:00 - [103] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Going capless would basically be the worst thing, rewarding no lifers and punishing those who can't be plugged into the game at all times. Aye and itself is a burnout as well. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Infantry Armoring =// Unlocked
Cai Mo L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 9	Posted - 2013.12.05 00:52:00 - [104] - Quote Absolute Idiom II wrote: IWS completely right to state that an on-going SP rollover would end up giving the impression that if that figure doesn't go down then you just aren't grinding hard enough. This is not a good impression to give to casuals - as they'll make up the bulk of the players of the game. And in MMOs: other players are the the content so we want as many as possible! I suggested a long time ago a constantly regenerating pool of active SP: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=462915#post462915 Quote: 1) Have an active SP reward pool which is the size of a weeks worth of SP, which with the current limits would be 190,400 SP. 2) Active SP rewards deplete this pool, as they do now. 3) Each tick of 30 minutes 566 SP are added back into the SP reward pool. 4) The pool never goes above the maximum size of 190,400 SP 5) Once empty, no rewards (or a nominal reward) is given). Pros: A) Whether you play weekly or daily, you have the opportunity to achieve the same number of active SP rewards from your plays. -- You can spread your 10 hours per week over the entire week, playing each day. Or you can have a marathon weekend and do it all in one go! B) No matter how much you have played, you will always have some more SP that you can earn the next day. A full day's worth of SP in fact. -- Even if you've earned an entire week's worth of active SP reward in the previous 2 days, you don't have to wait for a weekly reset day before it is worth playing some more C) No waiting for a reset at down time before, just wait 30 minutes! It's worth noting that this method is already used by many MMO, one great example being UrbanDead found at: http://www.urbandead.com/faq.html#50ap You can also balance the pool size and regen rate to taste. SP boosters could then do what AUR items allow: give you better match SP rewards to shorten the grind to cap out. The main affect is to allow players to carry over some active SP they didn't earn yet (to a point) whilst removing the concept of a reset day. The cap on the pool size means that players who rarely cap out won't see an every increasing SP pool. Most elegant solution i read so far, just get rid of the weekly resets and set a maximum pool that replenishes little by little. This kinda works as a form of roll-over and probably will reduce the feeling of a grind a little imho, power-grinders are still limited to a set maximum (as compared to no cap at all) while still being rewarded to keep playing as skillponts keep replenishing. The max cap on the pool not only prevents it from becomming that huge pool that seems ungrindable but will also motivate us somewhat to play frequently to keep our pool at least below the maximum limit in order to keep obtaining those new future active sp. Basicly you get rewarded new future active skillpoints when you have actually been active, rather then feel a loss of skillpoints when the reset hits if you haven't been able to cap out. I also support to remove the cap for the first few million skillpoints to reward those dedicated newberries to catch up a little to a point where they feel a bit more usefull on the battlefields. In combination with the above idea the initial pool could be set to the x million sp limit and drain down to the 'regular' max pool limit that is set for everyone while this sp is being earned. forum explorer, dust prospector and eve illuminati
Rowdy Railgunner Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 223	Posted - 2013.12.05 01:02:00 - [105] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Quote: 'Grass is green on the other side of the fence before you hopped over and realized it was all spray painted.' -Some Random Person Okay onto the bones of the subject Rollover SP system. I know we all want it but do we 'really' want it? The fantasy that we could grind away that extra SP whenever we want instead of being leashed by the neck from week to week is a wonderful idea indeed. However, there are down sides to such system while a hard core cap week to week player may not notice this a semi casual might feel as if he's been further burdened that he may never catch up? End of match screen pops up and declares he has 2 million bonus SP to claim that he can only seemingly claim 2k at a time? The notion of grind sets in and in the end becomes a disheartening thing. A wall, a contributor to the http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_44938cf481_o.jpg syndrome and something that may just drive casual players away. With this in mind would still want the roll over system? How would you address the potential backfire? Can we reasonably introduce the system safely? Your thoughts on careful design? Discuss. Side Note: The 'design' of the roll over system in question is left ambiguous on purpose, so feel free to introduce your solutions or a design of it for the discussion. That is not a downside. What is a downside is I am a busy person, I don't always get to cap every week. Then some months I am basically just sitting around doing nothing. Now I can play all I want and never have to worry about all those missed bonus SP because they are there, stashed away for me to make up whenever. Roll-over bonus SP should always accumulate from the day the character was made. No cap, just keeps on building.


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