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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
1304
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Posted - 2013.12.04 15:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:HowDidThatTaste wrote:Simply put YES!
If I was. A new person playing I would at least look at the20 mil Sp available as a challenge and the hopes if I tried hard enough I might catch up. As delusional as it may be.
Please don't over think it for the masses allowing new players the glimmer of hope of catching up is a great thing! But lets say you started with 20 mil cap you grind grind grin and get it down to 19 mil, then decide okay time to take a break and play this newest game. You beat that game come back and now you're at 22 million untapped SP you are locked away from. This quickly turns that glimmer to hope to gloom of doom of not even being able to 'catch' up with even yourself which can compound the entire issue in playing 'catch' up with the pro players. There are many players who do play regularly and never cap out. that bonus SP is going to keep growing and growing. Huh? That makes no sense why would you or anyone tell me or any player how he might feel about having the opportunity to catchup? Right now you are telling players you will never be able to catch up . how is that working out for player retention? You are saying that you would be concerned that the average player could not handle the fact he has a lot of playing to do to catch up. Or that if we didn't have it like we didnt tell him like we do now he is too stupid to find out that he can never catch up?
Agreed, HDTT. I appreciate the concern for the NPE, but I don't get IWS's objection in this case. For a new player, hardcore or casual, a large pool of rollover sp would be encouraging, not discouraging. The implicit message would be 'You can, in principle, catch up. And you can do it on your own time - you don't have to stress about scheduling or interruptions, and you don't have to feel like you're clocking into a second job every night. The choice of how and when and how much you play is entirely left to your discretion, because we value and respect you as a customer.'
And that, to me, is the whole point of this conversation.
I support SP rollover.
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
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Posted - 2013.12.04 15:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:The idea makes sense to me. People want the rollover system because they feel that what we have now is too grindy. So we implement rollover and suddenly those people are going to have a giant pool of bonus SP that they'll never be able to use up. Now they feel that the game is more grindy than ever. Just hiding the stat isn't going to change that. The pressure comes from the need to grind the points NOW, BEFORE TUESDAY NIGHT! A large pool can give you the feeling that there is no cap and you can play as much or a little as you want without fear of losing something. Remember, it's the feeling of loss that hurts. People are loss averse and that's the mechanism used in a number of P2W schemes such as displaying your winnings but making you pay to keep them. As long as the points accumulate and don't evaporate there won't be a feeling of loss.
^ +1 to Skihids for the core observation. Having a pool of sp available to you at your discretion vs. watching/racing the clock so you don't forever miss out on sp are completely different experiences.
The first promises reward for your efforts when you can afford the time, the second offers punishment for prioritizing RL duties, friends, family, etc. What is the upside of the punishment model? None so far as i can see.
I support SP rollover.
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
1304
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Posted - 2013.12.04 15:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Yagihige wrote:I would think the solution would be simple. Just settle a maximum amount of SP that can be accumulated with the rollover. Once it reaches that amount, it stops accumulating.
Let's suppose the maximum equal the amount of 3 weeks SP, 570k.
So, perhaps i would not play this week. Next week i'd have 380k available to earn. I'd play but not enough to earn all that SP. I'd end that week with 250k SP left. The week after i have 440k available. I don't play that week, so next week i don't get 190k more, just the remaining until the rollover cap, 570k SP.
I could be gone for an holiday for 3 weeks and still come back and earn those SP points. I also wouldn't need to earn them all in that week after i get back, i could just manage the points i earn and slowly lower it. Say i get back from a 3 week break, i'll have 570k waiting for me, i earn 200k SP that week, next week i'll have 560k available. That week i play a little more and earn 300k SP. The week after i have 450k available. I just play enough to get 100k that week. But that's ok because next week i'll have 540k available and still below the rollover limit.
This would let me manage exactly how much i want to play each week and put a very reasonable limit on how much you accrue.
EDIT: The limit could be higher, of course. If instead of 3 weeks it was a month, the rollover cap would be 950k SP. Did I really have to read through 4 pages of drivel to find this ^^ ... the original proposed SP rollover system. It's not ment to be a system to allow a new player to 'catch up' to the vets ... it was ment to be a system that allowed you to take a break, go on holiday, not feel like it was a job you had to turn up to every day (or every week as it is now with the weekly cap). The roll over should simply roll over a week, 2 weeks or whatever period of SP caps so your progress progress isn't completely lost if you don't cap out 1 week. People here who want to be able to 'catch up to the vets' want an uncapped system with a rolling maximum a character is allowed to have. THIS IS NOT an sp rollover since no sp is being rolled over a cap ... sp is just being built up in a pot (equal for everyone) to earn uncapped as and when they feel like. What Yagihige has explained here is the only viable option for an sp rollover system with variables like how many weeks can be rolled over and whether or not there is a slight increase in gain for banked sp.
I agree with you in terms of what a rollover system should be, but ITT i'm purposely ignoring the technical details of the rollover system because IWS's OP is talking about player experience.
His concerns seem totally off the mark to me - the entire motivation for the rollover system is to provide a better experience for CCP's customers, and to eliminate the negative aspects of the current weekly cap system which is one of several factors driving new & old players away from this game.
Rollover is in the best interests of the players, of CCP, of DUST and of New Eden. This is very clear to myself and many others. If CCP is in this for the long run they are going to have to find ways to provide a positive customer experience. It's as simple as that.
I support SP rollover.
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
1304
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Posted - 2013.12.04 16:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:So the community wants the SP to rollover
The majority agree that it would be a good idea and that new players and old can benefit from it and no harm would ever come from such an idea
Somehow IWS thinks this is a bad idea
IWS - Not representing the DUST community since it began
Disagree. His methods may be inflammatory, but it's a discussion that contributes to the rollover conversation.
If CCP had any doubts about why the playerbase wants rollover implemented this thread certainly clears that up.
The only fear i have is that when CCP implements rollover they do something as harmful as the passive in-match sp dole has been - without bouncing it off the playerbase first(<- this isn't bitching, it's speaking from experience).
I support SP rollover.
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
1304
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Posted - 2013.12.04 16:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well here is another bone to throw into the pile, Someone mentioned monetizing this pool, I am somewhat against this under various types of offerings (like doubling the pool) but I am willing to break over it provided that its a fair purchase.
With this bone in the mix what are you guys thoughts to it or how would you implement or not?
I think with something like monetizing the sp pool the devil is definitely in the details. I think to rationally assess a monetization scheme for rollover the entire specification of a proposed rollover system would have to be laid out in black and white. Edit: I would say that i'm not against rollover monetization in principle.
I don't think this thread is place to do that, it would muddy the conversation too much. As far as your original question/concern goes i would say give this thread a couple more days, but the community's answer is already loud and clear and a couple more days is not likely to change that.
I support SP rollover.
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
1306
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Posted - 2013.12.04 17:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:I may be in the minority but I'm pretty ambivalent about SP roll-over. As a buddy of mine said, "this isn't AT&T". Fundamentally, most folks play a fairly consistent amount each week whether it's a lot or little or in between. With SP rollover If you cap in 3 days...no change. If you take the full week to cap then no change. If you routinely don't make cap then you will routinley not cap that weeks SP pool. I think the bigger issue is giving guys that cap out more incentive to keep playing after cap. I do acknowldege that having roll over system would give you some flexibility and probably would be a welcome addition to some parts of the player base. My recommendation on that would be to offer 50% of the remaining pool of SP as rollover SP and that SP would only have the half-life of the next week. Example: I have 50K SP left at the end of the week, I get 25K rollover SP for the next week, if I use it great...if I don't it goes away. Reference my point about incentivizing players once they cap...that should trigger a small but noticable increase in ISK and/or LP production. For example..I usually cap on Sunday; this would further incentivize me to put more playing time into the game until the weekly reset. I think increased LP production would be a particulalry nice theme...you really are fighting out of some level of loyalty to your faction or corp when there's no SP involved (unless you're broke and grinding for ISK!). 
I like the idea of an incentive after you cap your sp. Maybe a bonus to ISK payout, or a FW bonus, or a salvage quality bonus. Or maybe a bonus to next week's cap lol.
I support SP rollover.
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