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What if... Logis couldn't use light weapons?

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Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 90	Posted - 2013.11.12 02:06:00 - [31] - Quote Mia Romani wrote: Not willing to let go of your AR logis, huh? Alright, how would you guys go about stopping the Logi suit from stepping on the Assault suit's toes? Buff the Assaults. Assault suit bonuses are terrible. If they had even vaguely reasonable benefits, they would immediately gain a lot of ground. Also, plenty of people use the AR because it is a simple enough weapon, not because it is the most overpowered weapon ever. Currently, it is by far the most abusable weapon due to it's accuracy, ROF and high damage with damn good range, but it has not always been the best option and nor will it remain so. I will continue to use my AR when the new rifles come out, as I will continue to use my MD.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 3686	Posted - 2013.11.12 02:39:00 - [32] - Quote IMO, Logi's shouldn't be comparable in combat performance as Assaults - so all this "well, if you do that then they need a range buff" non-sense is just that. If you want to be a slayer, use Assault. If you want to be support, run Logistics. Only having a single light weapon slot isn't what one could called "balanced" when the Caldari Logi turns out a better armor tanker than a Gallente Assault. Passive HP bonus, same amount of lows, enough highs to stack damage mods -and- shield extenders and plenty of CPU/PG to boot. Just saying, they need to take a hit already. ANON Diplomat // 3rd Place Winner of the Eight Thousand Suns Fiction Contest
Cash Gash 1 36 Infantry Battalion 23	Posted - 2013.11.12 02:41:00 - [33] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Cash Gash wrote: What you say about combat medics is true and often my best friends BUT I can assure you I have never met a medic that can be as combat effective as me or my squad (served active duty as an infantryman).... So in reality yes you do fight but you are not as effective as a dedicated infantryman (who also trains to do YOUR job but cannot do it as effective as you). So in New Eden "combat medics" should not be as combat effective or more OP then a dedicated assault class. They aren't. I would also like to point out that I have yet to see a description of Logistics suits as a "Combat Medic". In my time in Dust I have made many suits. Of which only a few have had either a repair tool or a nanite injector. Your classification of a logibro as a combat medic is insulting and truly uninformed. Check the list of equipment that a player can use if they skill into it. There are many more things than just healing that Logis can do well. In fact I believe it is your looking at the militia variant "Starter Assault-Medic" fitting that would seem to be the cause of the mistaken identity of a Logi being a medic. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that fit is on an Assault suit. Maybe we should be expecting Assaults to run injectors rather than guns? I was referring to them as combat medics because another logi user referred to them as that. Not at all what I was saying they are even though that is what they are; medics, engineers, mechanics, etc. They have an extra equipment slot therefor they are intended to be the ones using equipment. This is also laying down uplinks and what ever other uses and combos you can come up with. It just makes the assault suit pointless as they are basically the same stat wise and the assault suit bonuses are garbage in comparison to an extra equipment slot.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 924	Posted - 2013.11.12 04:58:00 - [34] - Quote We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? In the world of DUST/ The words are all in haiku/ Tweets are just too long
Cosgar ParagonX 7699	Posted - 2013.11.12 05:02:00 - [35] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? If you nerf one class, there's a good chance that the other 5 are still going to suck. Commando is a PoS, but you don't see them crying for everyone else to be nerfed because their suit under performs. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 478	Posted - 2013.11.12 05:55:00 - [36] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:11:00 - [37] - Quote Mia Romani wrote: Not willing to let go of your AR logis, huh? Alright, how would you guys go about stopping the Logi suit from stepping on the Assault suit's toes? Normalize base stats and high and low slots between assaults and logis. Change bonus to that of an equipment oriented one, instead of a free complex armor repper Done. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:15:00 - [38] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. Here Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Cosgar ParagonX 7702	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:24:00 - [39] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 479	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:25:00 - [40] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Mia Romani wrote: Not willing to let go of your AR logis, huh? Alright, how would you guys go about stopping the Logi suit from stepping on the Assault suit's toes? Normalize base stats and high and low slots between assaults and logis. Change bonus to that of an equipment oriented one, instead of a free complex armor repper Done. You sir are absolutely correct in that we need to normalize something, I suggest a bonus +5 HP/s per level of Logistics to normalize things. You want reps and ammo? Keep me alive. You want someone to scan for you or rez you? Keep me alive. You want someone to come along and hold your assault/heavy/scout hand while you kill people? Give us a way to do so, rather than making it one of the most expensive suits to run in the game while you are the ones benefiting from the nanohives, reps, rez and scans not to mention proxy mines and remote explosives. I apologize if this sounds like a bit of a rage but you seem to think that an Logi will survive in a situation where an Assault will not and it is not true. We have built in reps yes but it still takes time to rep armor and for those who shield tank a flux is next to lethal. This is true for all suits in the game, stop picking on the Logi like it is the Most Beefy, Most Supreme, Awesome, God-like suit that ever came along. Clearly if you think they are overpowered you are not a Logi sir. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*

Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:26:00 - [41] - Quote KingBabar wrote: You're all deluded. Get a proto suit of both the logi and assault, from the same race, then you'll see that nothing is that out of balance. The only thing that needs fixing is the class bonuses, and some of the racial bonuses like the CAL logi, + 2% effectiveness to shield regulators???? I'd suggst fitting bonus for all logi suits for equipment, and fitting bonuses for assaults for light weapons and sidearms. End. Looks at my last post Your a ***** ***. Given that speed tanking hasn't worked in the past 6 patches, and generally won't Ina FPS, the speed gap is basically from the LAV parking lot to the Obby, that is a negligible aspect, while gaining 300 HP, and losing a sidearm, which won't be needed in 1v1, or if you reload semifrequently. Pros- Tons of Equipment Huge HP Roughly comperable speed to a salt Cons- Marginally slower base speed Marginally less base HP No sidearm TBQH, why wouldn't you choose logi for your assault needs? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 481	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:31:00 - [42] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. Here Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. This coming from the same people who say they need ammo reps and rez from logis? Thats not a slayer fit it is a brick tha... *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:34:00 - [43] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 482	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:40:00 - [44] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? Clearly this would not equate to assault speed, and if I wanted to still be a Heavy I would have specced into them and had a big gun to go with my Duvolle. Try speccing into a Logi and please tell me what it is like, I already know that this fit would not be anywhere near isk efficient nor would it work regardless of what the fitting tool says. Try using one, Logi bros are already slower than assaults without the armor plating and you want a heavy with assault speed? You forgot to add a Kin Cat then. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Cosgar ParagonX 7703	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:40:00 - [45] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? Have you factored in how much ISK and SP you need to even make that abomination? Also, you're going to win a 1 v 1 fight with the first guy you meet, but what after? That 5HP/s is going to take a long ass time to rep all that armor. Might be a bit faster than a heavy, but you're going to die just as fast too. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:45:00 - [46] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. Here Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. This coming from the same people who say they need... For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 482	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:54:00 - [47] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: ... I am far from a slayer, I am the normal logi, as I have been from CB till now on at least one of my 3 toons. None of the suits are remotely even close to something useful, the whole point of being a Logi is to have equipment. I have never ever run a suit without equipment. Ever. If you think you are talking with someone with a high KDR think again, my warpoints may be above average but my KDR is far below 1, I will admit it freely. but I get the supplies to the troops and worry about having things they need. Try using a Logi suit and you will see, until then I suggest you do as you said, step away from the computer. The Heavies now have the ability to do well over 1100 HP, have you ever used a heavy suit? *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Cosgar ParagonX 7706	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:00:00 - [48] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Still moves faster then a Amarr logi With 1157 HP You do realize that the normal logis aren't the ducking issue? It's that it's being aboard to get such high HP while maintaining such speed, enabling it to be better then a suit that is specialized in that field. The TAR was being abused, just like the logi. It got nerfed. The flay was being abused, just like the logi. It got nerfed. The CalLogi was being abused to be better then its assault variant (which it still is). It got nerfed Why are the logis special? Why aren't they being balanced, even though it's being abused? Hmm? You're reaching for straws to KING CHECKMATE levels: -TAR eliminated any incentive to use any other AR, let alone any weapon. -Flaylock was overpowered when splash hit detection finally worked. -CaLogi was better than every suit in the game, haven't seen Nyain Sain using Amarr or Minmatar logi in droves yet. They only started using GaLogi after the plate buff. -Logis aren't special, just constantly targeted by forum butthurt. Just because a class is as viable as an assault suddenly makes it OP. I've seen this with heavies- nerfed!, scouts- nerfed! and since the commando came in pre-nerfed, the only thing left to be neutered by the almighty assault is the logi. 1.7 is around the corner and you're going to need logis more since there will no longer be an ISK payout for FW. In other words, don't bite the injector that saves you. Not like assaults can't carry injectors either, but they'd rather carry that militia nanohive and complain that logis don't drop ammo. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:03:00 - [49] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? Have you factored in how much ISK and SP you need to even make that abomination? Also, you're going to win a 1 v 1 fight with the first guy you meet, but what after? That 5HP/s is going to take a long ass time to rep all that armor. Might be a bit faster than a heavy, but you're going to die just as fast too. SP? SP Guide for MinLogi Murderlogi-https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdG96Q0hWMFYtQzU0cjhfZUFrNm9valE&usp=sharing ISK? Not Factering skillbooks, its 136,710 ISk per fit. So, 8.228450 Million SP for a Murderlogi fit. Given that several of those skills are important if you want other suits, its a good investment. @ Draco, While heavies can reack over 1100 EHP, can they go 4.44 meters per second while do that? Hell, can they go 4.44 meters per second at all? And yes, I have used a heavy suit. But Heavy suits lose in this in that both their weapon is terribad, and their hitbox is huge compared to the Med frame Logi. Oh, and their slow as ***. So yeah, Logis still beat them when abused. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy*
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:08:00 - [50] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Still moves faster then a Amarr logi With 1157 HP You do realize that the normal logis aren't the ducking issue? It's that it's being aboard to get such high HP while maintaining such speed, enabling it to be better then a suit that is specialized in that field. The TAR was being abused, just like the logi. It got nerfed. The flay was being abused, just like the logi. It got nerfed. The CalLogi was being abused to be better then its assault variant (which it still is). It got nerfed Why are the logis special? Why aren't they being balanced, even though it's being abused? Hmm? You're reaching for straws to KING CHECKMATE levels: -TAR eliminated any incentive to use any other AR, let alone any weapon. -Flaylock was overpowered when splash hit detection finally worked. -CaLogi was better than every suit in the game, haven't seen Nyain Sain using Amarr or Minmatar logi in droves yet. They only started using GaLogi after the plate buff. -Logis aren't special, just constantly targeted by forum butthurt. Just because a class is as viable as an assault suddenly makes it OP. I've seen this with heavies- nerfed!, scouts- nerfed! and since the commando came in pre-nerfed, the only thing left to be neutered by the almighty assault is the logi. 1.7 is around the corner and you're going to need logis more since there will no longer be an ISK payout for FW. In other words, don't bite the injector that saves you. Not like assaults can't carry injectors either, but they'd rather carry that militia nanohive and complain that logis don't drop ammo. TAR was abused by those with modded controllers. Abused Flaylock was abused by those to get 200 damage per shot within a 3 merer radius. Abused Logis are being abused by those who can afford to run proto every single time to get heavy level EHp while maintaining a speed comparable to a assault. Abused. Every other weapon, suit, or thing in the game that people exploited to gain a huge upper hand has been nerfed so that the exploitation ends. The entire logi class is being used, through its generous slots, to create mega tanks that can rival heavies. But they aren't touched? Seriously? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy

Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 485	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:15:00 - [51] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? Have you factored in how much ISK and SP you need to even make that abomination? Also, you're going to win a 1 v 1 fight with the first guy you meet, but what after? That 5HP/s is going to take a long ass time to rep all that armor. Might be a bit faster than a heavy, but you're going to die just as fast too. SP? SP Guide for MinLogi Murderlogi-https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdG96Q0hWMFYtQzU0cjhfZUFrNm9valE&usp=sharing ISK? Not Factering skillbooks, its 136,710 ISk per fit. So, 8.228450 Million SP for a Murderlogi fit. Given that several of those skills are important if you want other suits, its a good investment. @ Draco, While heavies can reack over 1100 EHP, can they go 4.44 meters per second while do that? Hell, can they go 4.44 meters per second at all? And yes, I have used a heavy suit. But Heavy suits lose in this in that both their weapon is terribad, and their hitbox is huge compared to the Med frame Logi. Oh, and their slow as **. So yeah, Logis still beat them when abused. Thats what cover is for Meeko, and can I use an OHK weapon whenever I want or have equipment to heal your heavy brick suit while you are using your OHK weapon? NO. Why are you running a Heavy if you don't have a Logi with you to rep you? Hell why are you not using an LAV to get around? I notice in the Logi Murder skill plan no proficiency in the weapon of choice which is very much a factor in being able to do as you say, why even at Lv 1-3 of Proficiency without a Complex damage modifier you still end up with less DPS than a Heavy face to face when they are using an Proto Assault Forge Gun. So you have a big hit box, there are lots of places to hide on a map and a Logi getting shot in the head by a Charge SR will be OHKed while a Heavy will require a second shot, tested with 4 Complex Damage mods. One Universe...with friendly fire for all!**
Cosgar ParagonX 7707	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:24:00 - [52] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: TAR was abused by those with modded controllers. Abused Flaylock was abused by those to get 200 damage per shot within a 3 merer radius. Abused Logis are being abused by those who can afford to run proto every single time to get heavy level EHp while maintaining a speed comparable to a assault. Abused. Every other weapon, suit, or thing in the game that people exploited to gain a huge upper hand has been nerfed so that the exploitation ends. The entire logi class is being used, through its generous slots, to create mega tanks that can rival heavies. But they aren't touched? Seriously? Wasn't just the modded controllers, it had a higher DPS than a blaster turret, hip fire spread tighter than a breach AR, all with a ridiculous high clip size. But it didn't get nerfed, it got re-balanced. People still use it because it's still viable. This whole game is balanced based on bad hit detection. That's why AR DPS is so insane, M-1/Core locus grenades are overpowered, the MD was nerfed/buffed and the flaylock needed to be worked on. Buffer tanking isn't everything and there's more modules than just shield extenders and plates. 1.4-1.6 has put too much emphasis on buffering, but I used to get by in my M/1 series that barely had 500HP and the only thing proto being my equipment. (Or sidearm if I was bored) Difference between the TAR and the flaylock is what got fixed before the other. If hit detection got fixed in 1.2, I'm pretty sure we would have seen less flaylocks since the AR would have gone back to being the god gun it's been for several builds. Probably would still need to be re-balanced, but not as heavy handed as CCP did. It's only partially usable at proto and with prof 3 or a damage mod. Which brings me to another point. Every nerf logi topic before this one has done the same damn thing- base everything on prototype. Logi suits only get their highest module slots at protoype. Some suits are pretty horrible at standard and somewhat decent at advanced. But you wouldn't know that just from looking at spreadsheets, huh? Even if every logi suit gets +1 module slot compared to an assault at proto, (Caldari gets 2) assaults still get that extra weapon, which makes them more dynamic in their weapon choices. How many non-Amarr logis have you seen with swarm launchers and lasers? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 486	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:41:00 - [53] - Quote I keep seeing Logi Bros trying to Rez players with needles and getting blown up or shot by all suit classes, this means that although there may be some abusers of a system that allows for a moderate amount of HP by far they are Lower HP builds that people are using because they understand what the Logi suit is for. There is no reason to fit the kind of tank you have suggested Meeko, it would melt under the firepower of my Gek, or Toxin AR while I duck behind cover and exchange repeated volleys with them. I could most likely do this without a damage mod and would be able to drop reps to heal my armor while behind cover. My point is at that amount of buffer you are slow enough that every ounce of shield and armor are needed to use to get to cover while being fired upon. It does-not-work. Period. Your reasoning that it would work leaves me wondering how many times I or one of my Logi brethren have repeatedly done this to you exactly as I have described while you have stood out in the wide open laying down DPS with an HMG thinking you could drill through the post I am standing behind. I normally aim for a Heavy in the head, they go down quicker and with reduced movement they are easier targets. When firing at anyone, shooting them in the head equates to 4x the damage and if you do it right the enemy will move right into your stream of bullets like a chainsaw going to work on a tree, getting closer to you to try to deal more damage, or away dropping their head right in line with the bullets. This is a great tactic for taking out heavies, unfortunately you need to be significantly quicker to do this with other suit classes, specifically the assault class. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Text Grant Death Firm. 208	Posted - 2013.11.12 09:48:00 - [54] - Quote Nexus marines? Does your corp have any good logis? I'm sure they don't wanna stay with you.
Paran Tadec Imperfect Bastards 1631	Posted - 2013.11.12 13:20:00 - [55] - Quote Remove assault suit equipment slots. Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 93	Posted - 2013.11.12 16:05:00 - [56] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Given that speed tanking hasn't worked in the past 6 patches, and generally won't Ina FPS, the speed gap is basically from the LAV parking lot to the Obby, that is a negligible aspect, while gaining 300 HP, and losing a sidearm, which won't be needed in 1v1, or if you reload semifrequently. Pros- Tons of Equipment Huge HP Roughly comperable speed to a salt Cons- Marginally slower base speed Marginally less base HP No sidearm TBQH, why wouldn't you choose logi for your assault needs? Because that "Huge HP" of yours is not actually that much higher than the relevant Assault. Logis get roughly a hundred more HP when super-tanked which equates to about 0.0000000000000000001* seconds of life. I agree there needs to be a balance between the two, definitely, but the Logistics is not horrendously b0rken, and is actually fairly decent for the current build: almost all of the other classes are severely lacking. If you tear down in the current TTK environment, we will just have a **** twitch shooter whereas if we buff all the others, we may actually get a game where the TTK is not retardedly short and roles can actually perform. *Exaggeration.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 154	Posted - 2013.11.12 16:21:00 - [57] - Quote What if we swapped the damage on both the AR and HMG? It actually makes sense, AR is pinpoint accurate, the hmg is cone fire.
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 491	Posted - 2013.11.13 09:03:00 - [58] - Quote I'm for buffing everyone, TTk is way too short. Just because you see a logi running around and not getting killed does not mean they have a superb tank but maybe they are a good FPS player and have got game. Even the most advanced suit can be killed and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themself. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1596	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:20:00 - [59] - Quote Mia Romani wrote: Not willing to let go of your AR logis, huh? Alright, how would you guys go about stopping the Logi suit from stepping on the Assault suit's toes? You know what? For that, I'll pop you in he face with my imperial scrambler rifle on my ak0 logi. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 210	Posted - 2013.11.13 13:07:00 - [60] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. Yes I have wondered about that too. If the logi is a better Assault just because you can tank the hell out of it I do not understand while the same people don't complain abaout heavies beeing better assaults too lol. The funny part in all this disccussions is how arguments change their meaning, the sidearm for instance whenever someone suggests Logis to limit to a siedarm the sidearm is a viable combat option but whenever a logi player says the sidearm is a viable addition to cambateffectiveness for assaults the sidearm all of sudden is garbage . Imho the current Logi is somewhat a missconception the Logi should fill the gap between scouts and Assaults in HP speed and slots. I would not mind to loose one (High/Low) slot in order to be as fast or slighly faster than assaults and I wouldn't mind Assaults to get that slot. Keeping up with assaults on the frontline is very difficult and even though lots of logis pair with heavies I prefere to pair with assaults on the frontline as they need my assistance more...



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