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What if... Logis couldn't use light weapons?

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Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:11:00 - [1] - Quote Mia Romani wrote: Not willing to let go of your AR logis, huh? Alright, how would you guys go about stopping the Logi suit from stepping on the Assault suit's toes? Normalize base stats and high and low slots between assaults and logis. Change bonus to that of an equipment oriented one, instead of a free complex armor repper Done. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:15:00 - [2] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. Here Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:26:00 - [3] - Quote KingBabar wrote: You're all deluded. Get a proto suit of both the logi and assault, from the same race, then you'll see that nothing is that out of balance. The only thing that needs fixing is the class bonuses, and some of the racial bonuses like the CAL logi, + 2% effectiveness to shield regulators???? I'd suggst fitting bonus for all logi suits for equipment, and fitting bonuses for assaults for light weapons and sidearms. End. Looks at my last post Your a ***** ***. Given that speed tanking hasn't worked in the past 6 patches, and generally won't Ina FPS, the speed gap is basically from the LAV parking lot to the Obby, that is a negligible aspect, while gaining 300 HP, and losing a sidearm, which won't be needed in 1v1, or if you reload semifrequently. Pros- Tons of Equipment Huge HP Roughly comperable speed to a salt Cons- Marginally slower base speed Marginally less base HP No sidearm TBQH, why wouldn't you choose logi for your assault needs? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy*
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:34:00 - [4] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:45:00 - [5] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. Here Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. This coming from the same people who say they need... For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:03:00 - [6] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? Have you factored in how much ISK and SP you need to even make that abomination? Also, you're going to win a 1 v 1 fight with the first guy you meet, but what after? That 5HP/s is going to take a long ass time to rep all that armor. Might be a bit faster than a heavy, but you're going to die just as fast too. SP? SP Guide for MinLogi Murderlogi-https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdG96Q0hWMFYtQzU0cjhfZUFrNm9valE&usp=sharing ISK? Not Factering skillbooks, its 136,710 ISk per fit. So, 8.228450 Million SP for a Murderlogi fit. Given that several of those skills are important if you want other suits, its a good investment. @ Draco, While heavies can reack over 1100 EHP, can they go 4.44 meters per second while do that? Hell, can they go 4.44 meters per second at all? And yes, I have used a heavy suit. But Heavy suits lose in this in that both their weapon is terribad, and their hitbox is huge compared to the Med frame Logi. Oh, and their slow as ***. So yeah, Logis still beat them when abused. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy*
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1502	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:08:00 - [7] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Still moves faster then a Amarr logi With 1157 HP You do realize that the normal logis aren't the ducking issue? It's that it's being aboard to get such high HP while maintaining such speed, enabling it to be better then a suit that is specialized in that field. The TAR was being abused, just like the logi. It got nerfed. The flay was being abused, just like the logi. It got nerfed. The CalLogi was being abused to be better then its assault variant (which it still is). It got nerfed Why are the logis special? Why aren't they being balanced, even though it's being abused? Hmm? You're reaching for straws to KING CHECKMATE levels: -TAR eliminated any incentive to use any other AR, let alone any weapon. -Flaylock was overpowered when splash hit detection finally worked. -CaLogi was better than every suit in the game, haven't seen Nyain Sain using Amarr or Minmatar logi in droves yet. They only started using GaLogi after the plate buff. -Logis aren't special, just constantly targeted by forum butthurt. Just because a class is as viable as an assault suddenly makes it OP. I've seen this with heavies- nerfed!, scouts- nerfed! and since the commando came in pre-nerfed, the only thing left to be neutered by the almighty assault is the logi. 1.7 is around the corner and you're going to need logis more since there will no longer be an ISK payout for FW. In other words, don't bite the injector that saves you. Not like assaults can't carry injectors either, but they'd rather carry that militia nanohive and complain that logis don't drop ammo. TAR was abused by those with modded controllers. Abused Flaylock was abused by those to get 200 damage per shot within a 3 merer radius. Abused Logis are being abused by those who can afford to run proto every single time to get heavy level EHp while maintaining a speed comparable to a assault. Abused. Every other weapon, suit, or thing in the game that people exploited to gain a huge upper hand has been nerfed so that the exploitation ends. The entire logi class is being used, through its generous slots, to create mega tanks that can rival heavies. But they aren't touched? Seriously? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1516	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:29:00 - [8] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. Well i really don't see the problem with the Amarr Logi Suit. (I'm logi Amarr). As you said we won 167eHp for a lose of stamina. BUT in your Amarr Logi fitting you forgot to fit all the equipements Slots. (Oh yes a Nanite who cost 2PG ). Fit all equipement slots with Advanced / Proto equipements like i do you'll see your eHp get melted so fast. So : Triage BDR-8 : 8PG cost. Flux N-11 Drop uplinks : 11PG. Nanohives K-2 : 7PG. So in fact with equipement slot (There's nothing Proto in these 3 equipement). We are under the Amarr assault suit in every Part. And we are weakier than other Logis suits. While Amarr Logi is supposed to be the Combat Logi suit...... (A secondary dont make a suit for battle......) As you see the problem is how the PG/CPU are used in Logi fitting. The solution would be to "Lock" part of Pg-CPU ONLY for equipements (25-30%). And others Logi should be less effective than Amarr at combat so why they are more powerful ??? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1516	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:41:00 - [9] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. Well i really don't see the problem with the Amarr Logi Suit. (I'm logi Amarr). As you said we won 167eHp for a lose of stamina. BUT in your Amarr Logi fitting you forgot to fit all the equipements Slots. (Oh yes a Nanite who cost 2PG ). Fit all equipement slots with Advanced / Proto equipements like i do you'll see your eHp get melted so fast. So : Triage BDR-8 : 8PG cost. Flux N-11 Drop uplinks : 11PG. Nanohives K-2 : 7PG. So in fact with equipement slot (There's nothing Proto in these 3 equipement). We are under the Amarr assault suit in every Part. And we are weakier than other Logis suits. While Amarr Logi is supposed to be the Combat Logi suit...... (A secondary dont make a suit for battle......) As you see the problem is how the PG/CPU are used in Logi fitting. The solution would be to "Lock" part of Pg-CPU ONLY for ... For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1518	Posted - 2013.11.13 21:47:00 - [10] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: And you would turn down being able to fit equipment more easily? Would you turn down being able to have HP? Would you turn down quicker move speed? Stop text walling. I would gladly be able to fit more equipment more easily and more hp as well as move speed but most of your wall'o'text is not suggesting anything of the sort Meeko. To what do I respond? Eh, did I break the wall o text copyright ? I'll restate it. Mirror base stats, and hi and low slots between assault and logi suits. Give logis a 15ish percent per level to fitting resources reduction on equip. The Great Wall of texts is mention it, below the links. I feel logis and assaults should differ only in equip and sidearms. Only the Amarr is strange, so it should lose a small amount of HP, or keep its speed. I feel that keeping its speed is a better suggestion for balancing it. That's all that need be done in my mind For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy

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