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What if... Logis couldn't use light weapons?

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Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 475	Posted - 2013.11.12 00:04:00 - [1] - Quote What if... Assaults couldn't use Light weapons? Or how about, what if Assaults couldn't use Equipment? There is absolutely no reason to restrict someone to a sidearm at all. Proto MD Proto AR Proto Sniper Proto Logi Proto Nanos Proto Links ... Zero skills in Sidearms The what if, would amount to a RESPEC or the closing of all my Eve accounts and finding a new game (the cost of which would most likely be less than the combined total of cash spent on CCP products in one month). *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 475	Posted - 2013.11.12 00:26:00 - [2] - Quote Cash Gash wrote: What you say about combat medics is true and often my best friends BUT I can assure you I have never met a medic that can be as combat effective as me or my squad (served active duty as an infantryman).... So in reality yes you do fight but you are not as effective as a dedicated infantryman (who also trains to do YOUR job but cannot do it as effective as you). So in New Eden "combat medics" should not be as combat effective or more OP then a dedicated assault class. They aren't. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 478	Posted - 2013.11.12 05:55:00 - [3] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 479	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:25:00 - [4] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Mia Romani wrote: Not willing to let go of your AR logis, huh? Alright, how would you guys go about stopping the Logi suit from stepping on the Assault suit's toes? Normalize base stats and high and low slots between assaults and logis. Change bonus to that of an equipment oriented one, instead of a free complex armor repper Done. You sir are absolutely correct in that we need to normalize something, I suggest a bonus +5 HP/s per level of Logistics to normalize things. You want reps and ammo? Keep me alive. You want someone to scan for you or rez you? Keep me alive. You want someone to come along and hold your assault/heavy/scout hand while you kill people? Give us a way to do so, rather than making it one of the most expensive suits to run in the game while you are the ones benefiting from the nanohives, reps, rez and scans not to mention proxy mines and remote explosives. I apologize if this sounds like a bit of a rage but you seem to think that an Logi will survive in a situation where an Assault will not and it is not true. We have built in reps yes but it still takes time to rep armor and for those who shield tank a flux is next to lethal. This is true for all suits in the game, stop picking on the Logi like it is the Most Beefy, Most Supreme, Awesome, God-like suit that ever came along. Clearly if you think they are overpowered you are not a Logi sir. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 481	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:31:00 - [5] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: We all agree that the assault bonuses are terrible and result in assaults not being able to really fulfill their role. While fixing that problem would go a long way towards dealing with the OP's issue I think that these buffs to assaults would have to be substantial and this would mean massive buffs would be needed to the already severly underpowered heavy and scout suits. Which would be easier for CCP to do correctly, buff three classes of suits or kill the ability of one suit to operate outside of its intended role? Come on, the assault bonus is able to make them more durable than a Logi, a better killer and also cheaper at the Proto level. Nerf Isk Loss on Proto Logi suits, and I may consider the request for an Assault buff a good idea. Anyone able to list off a Proto Slayer Minmatar Logi suit fitting please do so, I'm tired of having 15-40 assists and 1-10 kills. Here Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. This coming from the same people who say they need ammo reps and rez from logis? Thats not a slayer fit it is a brick tha... *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 482	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:40:00 - [6] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? Clearly this would not equate to assault speed, and if I wanted to still be a Heavy I would have specced into them and had a big gun to go with my Duvolle. Try speccing into a Logi and please tell me what it is like, I already know that this fit would not be anywhere near isk efficient nor would it work regardless of what the fitting tool says. Try using one, Logi bros are already slower than assaults without the armor plating and you want a heavy with assault speed? You forgot to add a Kin Cat then. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 482	Posted - 2013.11.12 06:54:00 - [7] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: ... I am far from a slayer, I am the normal logi, as I have been from CB till now on at least one of my 3 toons. None of the suits are remotely even close to something useful, the whole point of being a Logi is to have equipment. I have never ever run a suit without equipment. Ever. If you think you are talking with someone with a high KDR think again, my warpoints may be above average but my KDR is far below 1, I will admit it freely. but I get the supplies to the troops and worry about having things they need. Try using a Logi suit and you will see, until then I suggest you do as you said, step away from the computer. The Heavies now have the ability to do well over 1100 HP, have you ever used a heavy suit? *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 485	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:15:00 - [8] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Just need dem fitting skills. Out of curiosity, I tried that fit out. It's pretty useless since you're not taking advantage of equipment. Might as well be a heavy with a Duvolle. facepalm THATS THE ******* POINT You get heavy EHP with assault speed. Can you not see the freaking issue?! Gahdamn, muthathukker, stupid ass forums.. walks away from the computer But I mean, you REALLY don't think nothing is wrong with a suit having Heavy level EHP while maintaining the majority of its speed? Have you factored in how much ISK and SP you need to even make that abomination? Also, you're going to win a 1 v 1 fight with the first guy you meet, but what after? That 5HP/s is going to take a long ass time to rep all that armor. Might be a bit faster than a heavy, but you're going to die just as fast too. SP? SP Guide for MinLogi Murderlogi-https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdG96Q0hWMFYtQzU0cjhfZUFrNm9valE&usp=sharing ISK? Not Factering skillbooks, its 136,710 ISk per fit. So, 8.228450 Million SP for a Murderlogi fit. Given that several of those skills are important if you want other suits, its a good investment. @ Draco, While heavies can reack over 1100 EHP, can they go 4.44 meters per second while do that? Hell, can they go 4.44 meters per second at all? And yes, I have used a heavy suit. But Heavy suits lose in this in that both their weapon is terribad, and their hitbox is huge compared to the Med frame Logi. Oh, and their slow as **. So yeah, Logis still beat them when abused. Thats what cover is for Meeko, and can I use an OHK weapon whenever I want or have equipment to heal your heavy brick suit while you are using your OHK weapon? NO. Why are you running a Heavy if you don't have a Logi with you to rep you? Hell why are you not using an LAV to get around? I notice in the Logi Murder skill plan no proficiency in the weapon of choice which is very much a factor in being able to do as you say, why even at Lv 1-3 of Proficiency without a Complex damage modifier you still end up with less DPS than a Heavy face to face when they are using an Proto Assault Forge Gun. So you have a big hit box, there are lots of places to hide on a map and a Logi getting shot in the head by a Charge SR will be OHKed while a Heavy will require a second shot, tested with 4 Complex Damage mods. One Universe...with friendly fire for all!**
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 486	Posted - 2013.11.12 07:41:00 - [9] - Quote I keep seeing Logi Bros trying to Rez players with needles and getting blown up or shot by all suit classes, this means that although there may be some abusers of a system that allows for a moderate amount of HP by far they are Lower HP builds that people are using because they understand what the Logi suit is for. There is no reason to fit the kind of tank you have suggested Meeko, it would melt under the firepower of my Gek, or Toxin AR while I duck behind cover and exchange repeated volleys with them. I could most likely do this without a damage mod and would be able to drop reps to heal my armor while behind cover. My point is at that amount of buffer you are slow enough that every ounce of shield and armor are needed to use to get to cover while being fired upon. It does-not-work. Period. Your reasoning that it would work leaves me wondering how many times I or one of my Logi brethren have repeatedly done this to you exactly as I have described while you have stood out in the wide open laying down DPS with an HMG thinking you could drill through the post I am standing behind. I normally aim for a Heavy in the head, they go down quicker and with reduced movement they are easier targets. When firing at anyone, shooting them in the head equates to 4x the damage and if you do it right the enemy will move right into your stream of bullets like a chainsaw going to work on a tree, getting closer to you to try to deal more damage, or away dropping their head right in line with the bullets. This is a great tactic for taking out heavies, unfortunately you need to be significantly quicker to do this with other suit classes, specifically the assault class. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 491	Posted - 2013.11.13 09:03:00 - [10] - Quote I'm for buffing everyone, TTk is way too short. Just because you see a logi running around and not getting killed does not mean they have a superb tank but maybe they are a good FPS player and have got game. Even the most advanced suit can be killed and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themself. *One Universe...with friendly fire for all!*

Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 493	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:07:00 - [11] - Quote Mia Romani wrote: Geeze, this thread got out of hand quickly... Everyone focused on the "sidearms only" portion of my suggestion and completely glossed over the "two grenade slots" or "deployable turrets" ideas... My line of thinking was to make the logi more of a combat engineer, modifying the battlefield to his advantage through area denial, instead of just having them be an assault with extra equipment slots. Yes, I agree with others here that the assault suit is underwhelming. Particularly because they're so... Conventional... Personally, I'd love to see the assault suit given some unique movement abilities to actually help them assault fortified locations (e.g. wall-climbing, jump-packs, short distance teleporting (a drop up-link, in grenade form), etc)... But hey, that's not what this thread is about. The problem is the limit, not the additional gear, such as deployable turrets. Being a combat engineer means needing to be mobile, and putting a limit on what should be fit in that weapon slot is certainly an issue for someone who wants to be mobile. Having the option to fit a sidearm is why I got the Toxin SMG, because they do work. Even a heavy can, if they so choose, fit a Light weapon or Sidearm in their Heavy Weapon slot. As for the assault being underwhelming, all the suits are, I have chosen my specialization for my own reasons and others for theirs but currently all suits need some sort of HP buff. The TTK is too short in so many cases that its a wonder that people still use Proto in Pub matches. You say there is a problem with the assault suits and instead of suggesting some kind of buff to them you suggest that the Logi be limited in a way that many of us are not prepared to accept as a reasonable change. What would you do if we suggested that the Assault be limited to only light weapons and one less weapon slot? *One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 494	Posted - 2013.11.13 17:37:00 - [12] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cat, I see where your numbers are coming from, but here's a more accurate depiction of a fit for Assaulting (i.e. KILL ZEM ALLZ) Cal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFRtOEswWGNWcl9ydWFQdHM1SklHUlE&usp=sharing Cal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHZWTGNoZTkyTXhMb3BTMm1IdVJvX2c&usp=sharing Gal Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhvcjJaUDV1Vy1pT1E3UHIxNDJhZGc&usp=sharing Gal Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=sharing Min Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdHctYlcyZk9CbWVwcWUxRGZKMmpRTFE&usp=sharing Min Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdFp1QjA5NFJtdW05ZU11Umh0c0E1b0E&usp=sharing Amarr Salt- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDhFLXlPT3JYY0hoNkt1SEVmazJ5cGc&usp=sharing Amarr Logi- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdEZqV3MxSUprWWZrNDhaZFFTTGItQmc&usp=sharing As you can see, for the majority of all the Combat fits (I went full tank here to showcase who the Logi abusers have been abusing the extra slots. Only the Amarr suits have equipment, and that's only a standard needle) of both suits, Logistics provide much more HP for lose of a Sidearm, and speed. The Amarr Logi loses .24 meters per second. Every 4 seconds its assault counterpart is one meter in front of it. The Caldari Logi loses .42 meters per second. Every 2 seconds its assault counterpart move one meter in front. The Minmatar Logi loses .8 meters per second. Roughly every second its assault counterparts move one meter ahead. The Gallente Logi loses .37 meters per second. Roughly every three seconds, its assault counterpart grows one meter ahead. However, they have an boost of HP. Caldari Logi gains 318 HP over its assault variant Gallente Logi gains 245 HP over its assault variant Minmatar logi gains 380 over its assault variant. Amarr logi gains 167 over its assault fit, while retaining the sidearm and Equipment slots While this may seem like a fair trade, considering that we can spawn 27K LAVs wherever the hell we want, the speed factor is made null. This tactic was, and still is by the select few, used by heavies to make up for their snail pace. So, for all intents and purposes, the Logistic Suits gain 300 HP over its assault brothers, while losing speed that is used to cross the difference between the LAV parking spot and the Objective. Balanced you say? Look at the min logi spread. Just need dem fitting skills. Well i really don't see the problem with the Amarr Logi Suit. (I'm logi Amarr). As you said we won 167eHp for a lose of stamina. BUT in your Amarr Logi fitting you forgot to fit all the equipements Slots. (Oh yes a Nanite who cost 2PG ). Fit all equipement slots with Advanced / Proto equipements like i do you'll see your eHp get melted so fast. So : Triage BDR-8 : 8PG cost. Flux N-11 Drop uplinks : 11PG. Nanohives K-2 : 7PG. So in fact with equipement slot (There's nothing Proto in these 3 equipement). We are under the Amarr assault suit in every Part. And we are weakier than other Logis suits. While Amarr Logi is supposed to be the Combat Logi suit...... (A secondary dont make a suit for battle......) As you see the problem is how the PG/CPU are used in Logi fitting. The solution would be to "Lock" part of Pg-CPU ONLY for equipements (25-30%). And others Logi should be less effective th... *One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 495	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:35:00 - [13] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: And you would turn down being able to fit equipment more easily? Would you turn down being able to have HP? Would you turn down quicker move speed? Stop text walling. I would gladly be able to fit more equipment more easily and more hp as well as move speed but most of your wall'o'text is not suggesting anything of the sort Meeko. To what do I respond? *One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!*
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 539	Posted - 2013.11.28 01:12:00 - [14] - Quote This is an absurd topic, stop panicking people there is no reason to do anything to the logi suits, this is just fluff. *One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!*
Draco Cerberus Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 561	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:08:00 - [15] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: And you would turn down being able to fit equipment more easily? Would you turn down being able to have HP? Would you turn down quicker move speed? Stop text walling. I would gladly be able to fit more equipment more easily and more hp as well as move speed but most of your wall'o'text is not suggesting anything of the sort Meeko. To what do I respond? Eh, did I break the wall o text copyright ? I'll restate it. Mirror base stats, and hi and low slots between assault and logi suits. Give logis a 15ish percent per level to fitting resources reduction on equip. The Great Wall of texts is mention it, below the links. I feel logis and assaults should differ only in equip and sidearms. Only the Amarr is strange, so it should lose a small amount of HP, or keep its speed. I feel that keeping its speed is a better suggestion for balancing it. That's all that need be done in my mind The Logi is balanced atm. You are approaching this argument from the wrong end. As for Slot Layout, that was balanced during the year of Open Beta, something that was a great benefit for a large number of people, if your input didn't get heard at that time it may have been because others had more valid arguments for the way things are now. I still don't really understand the problem with a slower than assault suit having more HP than an Assault suit Meeko, could you please offer some argument based on "fact" rather than "feeling"? Logi God in the Flesh
Draco Cerberus Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 561	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:34:00 - [16] - Quote Well after having a discussion with some friends about the nature of the heavy (fat and slow) and their relationship with a good repair tool (without it U B FuQed) I decided to play a couple rounds with a BDR repair tool. In the few short rounds I racked up more WP and Isk than in any of the rounds I had played earlier in the night, also had better by far KDR's than the rest of the night as well. Basically the problem (experienced from my end) that assaults are having is that the guys running beside the logi's are not going down, not that the LogiBro's are killing them. When my squad reloads I open fire and finish them off. When they are firing I am repping. That is what a support logi does. Closing on 20mil SP and still wondering why my KDR isn't higher but at least now I know that there is most likely a reason, I didn't have enough meat shield in front of me before. Logi God in the Flesh
Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 686	Posted - 2014.01.14 14:13:00 - [17] - Quote Mia Romani wrote: Alright, how would you guys go about stopping the Logi suit from stepping on the Assault suit's toes? I try to pick them up off the ground, have a needle and find this clears my path so I don't step on anyone. LogiGod earns his pips
Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 689	Posted - 2014.01.15 08:30:00 - [18] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: what about remove wp from weapon kills for logi suits but remove equipment from all other suits. fair tradeoff Or, less absolute, just reward kills by Logis at 50% and reward equip use by everyone else at 50%. No. LogiGod earns his pips