Maybe the WP system is flawed to begin with. ISK is king in Eve and Dust, and SP takes a more important role in Dust than Eve because of the active SP gain component. The whole system of WP gain dictating ISK and SP gain should be reworked.

I agree wholeheartedly. WP are way too important. More important than ISK (which shouldn't be the case). I wish we could get rid of WP. They just make people do stupid things like red line snipe, equipment spam, exploit, etc to farm WP. Decouple WP from SP / ISK / Orbitals and make ISK / SP based on Victory / Defeat and ISK destroyed. Then people would work together to win matches and take out opponents, rather than sit outside the match exploiting to gain WP.

War Points just make no sense to me; especially in FW / PC. Why would the Amarr care how many people you killed, or how many times someone used your uplink, if you lost them the District? They have killed decorated Admirals who won their battles for less! All war points do is cripple strategy. Because no one is going to do something strategic and helpful if it nets them no WP.

Make ISK important again and neuter WP.

The design we ended up with is fairly straightforward:

• We set two constants in our data: WP/minute ceiling and WP/minute limit
• Each player has a WP ceiling and a WP limit for each match
• These start at 0, and are incremented every second. This gives you two numbers that rise linearly over the course of the match
• If, any time you gain WP, your total WP score for the match would be above your current WP ceiling, we reduce the value of that WP payout proportional to how far between your current ceiling and your current limit it would take your score

This has the following consequences:

• So long as your WP total stays below the WP ceiling, you will never see this system
• As your WP total moves above the ceiling, we trim your WP payout in a way that starts gentle but gets firmer as your WP/minute gets higher
• We can mathematically guarantee that you can never score more WP per minute than the limit value over the course of the match, so this system should be 100% exploit-proof and never need to be adjusted again
• Because we are tracking a moving ceiling over the course of the battle, rather than say tracking your income over the last minute or the last X WP scores or whatever, once you get past the first few minutes in-match your WP income can be very uneven and still not trigger the cap so long as your average over the course of the battle stays below the limit
• As a side-effect of the above, the system is more likely to start clipping scores if you score large amounts of WP in the first minute or two; this isn't optimal, but in the course of a normal battle (ie starting from the beginning rather than joining midway through) there's little opportunity to get big scores in your first minute or so, which should significantly reduce the impact of this factor.

Sorry yeah, I should've said, that 2k WP was scored in six minutes If you're scoring 2k WP over 10 or 15 minutes you're unlikely to run into the cap unless you score a large number very early on. 2k evenly spread over 10 minutes is only 200 WP/minute, which isn't a problem even with current cap numbers.

If your 4000 point game is taking longer than nine minutes, and you're not scoring more than 1000 points in the first two minutes or so of the battle, you'll not be affected by this feature once we get the new numbers onto TQ.

I agree wholeheartedly. WP are way too important. More important than ISK (which shouldn't be the case). I wish we could get rid of WP. They just make people do stupid things like red line snipe, equipment spam, exploit, etc to farm WP. Decouple WP from SP / ISK / Orbitals and make ISK / SP based on Victory / Defeat and ISK destroyed. Then people would work together to win matches and take out opponents, rather than sit outside the match exploiting to gain WP.

War Points just make no sense to me; especially in FW / PC. Why would the Amarr care how many people you killed, or how many times someone used your uplink, if you lost them the District? They have killed decorated Admirals who won their battles for less! All war points do is cripple strategy. Because no one is going to do something strategic and helpful if it nets them no WP.

Make ISK important again and neuter WP.

Thanks Greyscale, for explaining the rationale and math behind the warpoint limiter.

The only thing I don't like is that the ceiling is scaled per minute from the very beginning of the match. In ambushes specifically, sometimes you spawn in within 50 meters of the reds, so you might end up scoring kills that are subsequently penalized within less than a minute of the start of the battle.

Maybe you should build incrementally from another fixed WP value other than zero - say 500 WP limit right at the beginning, then 400 WP per minute after that?

I am fine as long as this does not effect normal gameplay but when you say it clear that it is happening, are you giving the player any feedback when it is happening? This goes back to the reduced WP gain on rep tools. It looks like a bug because no feedback is given, just reduced number. How about some red letters or something beside the WP to let them know that WP is reduced that way we know that is not a bug or can clearly see this is happening.

Also, as others have said, this is the wrong way to implement something, you just did it and then asked for feedback, this is backwards and now we wait 1-2 weeks for a fix. These kinds of code pushes are what cause your player base to get mad and leave.

Flashbacks of dealing with Crimewatch, Greyscale?

the only people seeing it should be people deliberately farming, and a) they should be able to put 2 and 2 together themselves...
[edit] we don't discuss exploit fixes until we've shipped them...announced this early enough to get feedback, it'd have acted as an incentive for the farmers to knuckle down and get in a good few weeks of farming before we ship it.

So OP and people who first posted complaining should now be regarded as farmers...


This is backwards and stating so with a straight face doesn't make it right nor a good idea


a few weeks? ppl have been doing so since chrome, why should a few weeks matter??



CCP, what do you think you're doing??

There must be a better fix for this instead of just applying a flat limiter? This stops people from getting awesome OBs and genuine kill streaks.

Hello everyone,

I see there is some confusion about this because it wasn't messaged properly. I'm rather confused how it was left out of the official messaging for the hotfix deployed on October 24.

Regardless, this is the patch note for the hotfix:

"Apply a limiter, capping the warpoint gained per minute of the players who are farming warpoints or cheating."

This is to prevent people from setting up a scheme where a friend runs in and dies, then gets revived by a teammate, only to die again, and this happens over and over.

We of course want your feedback about it on if the limiter is too strict.

I want you to know that this is absolutely pointless and it makes the game less fun. If you would rather have us camp in the MCC instead of play, we can go back to that, as now we would get the same amount of WP, anyhow.

but if this is tuned properly (#1 priority right now) the only people seeing it should be people deliberately farming, and a) they should be able to put 2 and 2 together themselves and b) we don't want to spend any significant amount of effort making a better UI just for them

If your 4000 point game is taking longer than nine minutes, and you're not scoring more than 1000 points in the first two minutes or so of the battle, you'll not be affected by this feature once we get the new numbers onto TQ.

If it makes you feel any better, I can tell you that you were in the top five characters for "number of minutes in which WP scores were reduced"

For the record, I feel like I should say that the CPM was told of this quite some time before deployment. We strongly cautioned them that it should never affect legit players, and there were a couple of us (Not all agreed) that this is not a good way to go about it. Not only did we get what felt like a patronizing pat on the head saying "Trust us, it will only affect the bad guys" but we tried to offer possible alternatives which were shrugged off.

While yes, this was the most efficient -stopgap- solution until a more robust one can be implemented, it is not ideal.

The ideal solution(s) once time allow are as follows :

(1) Absolute limit on points for a single action. IE: If you have five guys in a squad scanning and one guy kills a scanned victim, only one scan assist is given to the squad leader and the scan points are divided among those who earned them, with a bonus to the base value to the total points to keep them from earning +1's. There is no endless stream of +X's with this method, as multiple people trying to 'get in on the action' becomes moot and more time actually playing is the incentive. To this end, having multiple logi repping the same dude in order to farm guardian points would be moot, but multiple logi repping multiple different dudes would still get them all points. It encourages people to spread the love and work more as a team, rather than just everyone rallying around the 1-2 guys they know will crush everything.

(2) Re-assessment of squad bonus mechanics. (Will go into this later)

(3) When it comes to revives, the entire system needs to be revamped. I'll write a bigger post on how this should work, but essentially there should be persistent "overkill" HP. For example, A person is "Incapacitated" after being brought to 0 armor. if someone has 100 overkill HP, you would have to do more than 100 damage past their armor to "Kill" them, and they would not be able to be revived. If killed and dealt 48 of that overkill HP, they could be revived and survive another 52 overkill damage before being fully "dead". Players' not "dead" and incapacitated should be clearly visible as such and easily finished off. Revives should only be happening if a teammate saves someone just after they go down by killing their killer or forcing them to flee. No one should be getting "Kill" or "Death" stats unless the victim is down for good.

(4) Uplinks and Nanohives : Point accrual from these is mostly fine. The problem is people bypassing the "Max active" limit by using the same type of equipment but a different variant. This is unintended, and the only fix needed to stop "spam" is to fix this loophole.

For the record, I feel like I should say that the CPM was told of this quite some time before deployment. We strongly cautioned them that it should never affect legit players, and there were a couple of us (Not all agreed) that this is not a good way to go about it. Not only did we get what felt like a patronizing pat on the head saying "Trust us, it will only affect the bad guys" but we tried to offer possible alternatives which were shrugged off.

While yes, this was the most efficient -stopgap- solution until a more robust one can be implemented, it is not ideal.

The ideal solution(s) once time allow are as follows :

(1) Absolute limit on points for a single action. IE: If you have five guys in a squad scanning and one guy kills a scanned victim, only one scan assist is given to the squad leader and the scan points are divided among those who earned them, with a bonus to the base value to the total points to keep them from earning +1's. There is no endless stream of +X's with this method, as multiple people trying to 'get in on the action' becomes moot and more time actually playing is the incentive. To this end, having multiple logi repping the same dude in order to farm guardian points would be moot, but multiple logi repping multiple different dudes would still get them all points. It encourages people to spread the love and work more as a team, rather than just everyone rallying around the 1-2 guys they know will crush everything.

...

(4) Uplinks and Nanohives : Point accrual from these is mostly fine. The problem is people bypassing the "Max active" limit by using the same type of equipment but a different variant. This is unintended, and the only fix needed to stop "spam" is to fix this loophole.

No and no. Your fourth point is especially troubling because it's as if you aren't aware of the fact that the marketplace carries these variants for us to buy and use. Some of these variants are diverse (only ammo, only triage, a combo thereof) and some are statistically indistinguishable from one another (ie. multiple proto uplinks with exactly the same stats--spawn speed, number of spawns, etc.) and are only different in name. Why, then, would I purchase these variants, if I were capped on how many I could use overall? The max carry and deploy stat has clearly always been associated with each individual piece of equipment, not the equipment class. Your position is based on your own bias against aggressive logistics play and does not represent the reality associated how the equipment was designed and the many variants within a type that were designed. The current system encourages me to purchase and consume a variety of items because I benefit by doing so. You would have it so my demand for all these items would decrease as I'd now be choosing several variants only based on which brand name I prefer. It would no longer benefit me to purchase and consume a wide variety of equipment variants because you would limit my ability to utilize those variants at the same time. Lame.

Please stop trying to be the playstyle police.

I've hit this so called "warpoint" limit so many times it's ridiculous.

I'll usually scatter uplinks/hives around the map then go around killing, and SO MANY of my kills end up being "+0" after a while its ridiculous. Was this really the best solution you could come up with? You're saying you are attacking the root of the problem, but it seems like you decided to use a nuclear bomb instead of a chisel to get to that root.

Seriously, you completely shafted the legitimate players just as much for implementing this nonsense. Just another reason to leave this crap game I guess..

WTF...funk not in OH!?