The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514.

I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2

Dropships

The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514.

I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2

You don't know anything it seems.

I hope people don't read your post and take it to other threads.

But that would mean that the best counter to a Sagaris, is a Surya with a NOS module. What's the problem with that? Do you have any idea how fast us tank pilots would skill into it?

I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout.

If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science.

Do you have any idea how fast EVERYONE would skill into it? If the only counter to something is the same thing, we'll have a problem. In fact, as lolzy as it is to abuse the physics to kill it, wouldn't that speak volumes about how broken it is?

All I'm saying is that Marauders need to be slower than Basic tanks and have their offensive bonus stripped. If not, then give the Dropsuits their HP for higher metalevel back when you put the Marauders back. I mean, we got rid of that for reasons too, but if we're just reaching into the past everyone should get something.

I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout.

If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science.

CCP, i know your havng trouble with getting the vehicles rehashed and out for the most undervalued people in the game in accordance to pub stompers. but as a PC vet i need my tankers and i love to see them on the other side. Vehicles dominate how you control an objective.



in order to not make them all rage quit, the answer is simple. bring back the tanks from chromosome that were always good.


Sagarises and Suryas.

not only would the tankers rejoice it would be cool to see these guys back and have the new guys experience getting stomped by the prettiest darn tank you'll ever see.

Don't be that guy CCP. Don't make our precious tankers leave.

/facepalm

k it seems there isnt much point to debating with you as you seem to be angry and not operating on facts.

99% resist? no
There is a mechanic called a stacking penalty for modules to prevent spamming a certain attribute like damage mods.

Marauders being flat out better? no
Marauders as we knew them are no longer in existence. Hell they used to have a flat 50% damage increase to everything. You can say this or that but the fact of the matter is marauders and black-ops tanks do not exist at this point and will not exist in a similar form in the future. Its like arguing about the balancing of remotes from back in E3 when you could throw them like grenades. Yeah, they weren't balanced but they also do not exist in that form anymore.

In EVE marauders gain offensive power in exchange for greatly reduced survivability. It is more of a sidegrade than a higher tier ship and are not used in PVP since they are basically purpose built for PVE missions and ratting. They are also very expensive and are actually worth their price tags.

Enforcers are a red-headed stepchild that never had a use, much like the black-ops tanks.

Other than that, im glad you feel that your friend is a good driver. That's nice.

Is there anything else you would like me to educate you on or are you just going to be angry and insult me some more?

3 hours then ill let you know how my sagaris is pics if you want

Honestly, how hard is it to do this?
Or change the PG skill back?

Those aren't special delicate balance tweaks that require being pushed back three patches to make.

Yeah you won't be seeing Marauders as they were back in Chromosome. Why did you think they got taken out? Because they were too awesome? Because CCP hates fun?

No, it's because they were making the game unfun for everyone else.

Savor those memories, because that is all you'll ever have when it comes to HAVs.

Send us pics...
(It's closed beta though? can you send pics?)

I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout.

If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science.

Yeah you won't be seeing Marauders as they were back in Chromosome. Why did you think they got taken out? Because they were too awesome? Because CCP hates fun?

No, it's because they were making the game unfun for everyone else.

Savor those memories, because that is all you'll ever have when it comes to HAVs.

I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout.

If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science.

/facepalm

k it seems there isnt much point to debating with you as you seem to be angry and not operating on facts.

99% resist? no
There is a mechanic called a stacking penalty for modules to prevent spamming a certain attribute like damage mods.

Marauders being flat out better? no
Marauders as we knew them are no longer in existence. Hell they used to have a flat 50% damage increase to everything. You can say this or that but the fact of the matter is marauders and black-ops tanks do not exist at this point and will not exist in a similar form in the future. Its like arguing about the balancing of remotes from back in E3 when you could throw them like grenades. Yeah, they weren't balanced but they also do not exist in that form anymore.

In EVE marauders gain offensive power in exchange for greatly reduced survivability. It is more of a sidegrade than a higher tier ship and are not used in PVP since they are basically purpose built for PVE missions and ratting. They are also very expensive and are actually worth their price tags.

Enforcers are a red-headed stepchild that never had a use, much like the black-ops tanks.

Other than that, im glad you feel that your friend is a good driver. That's nice.

Is there anything else you would like me to educate you on or are you just going to be angry and insult me some more?

[I know that there are resistance stacking penalties, but in comparison to a standard tank it would be as if a standard had severe resistances. 99% has a nice ring to it, and no one on the forums reacts to anything but gross exaggeration. That said, VERY high resistances are very possible, less possible in EVE where my corpie has a 95%~ omnitanked Rohk, but still quite high. A single active shield hardener boosts resistances by 30%. The skill behind it does not alter that, but the shield skill itself adds a 10% bonus. This leads to a 40% base bonus. If the stacking penalties are the same as EVE, the first module goes down to 50%. This means that two active can get 55%. Add a third at a 35% reduction, then you have 65.5%, only 10.5% by this point and kind of a wasted slot. Marauders had about twice the HP level of their basic brethren. This all adds up to an immensely high amount of EHP for no losses besides cost. They also had more slots, but I haven't got solid numbers there.

A Marauder needs to be a sidegrade, but there is no room for a MARAUDER anymore. Enforcers already take up the higher damage for lower survivability role. If we were to put them back in then the only sidegrade left would be more defense for less speed, which would not be a Marauder in EVE terms. If we just bring back the old Marauders, which WERE flat out better, then we wouldn't be able to counter them except with a second Marauder, which the first would shoot out of the sky. The OP didn't ask for new tanks, or a new kind of tank, or even a new set of racial tanks. He specifically asked for the Marauders from Chromosome. That, as I stated and you ignored, is a bad idea. As I stated, tanks do need something. Maybe a tankier kind of tank, maybe a slight numbers tweak, but not bringing back the Marauder class HAVs out of whatever CCP did to remove them. Could have been as simple as flipping them off the market when they did the equipment liquidizing.

I also did not insult you. You are a one-sided tank pundit. You only see things from the HAV point of view, you like driving HAVs, and you are very vocal about your love of HAVs. Not a word of that was false. You however did insult me by making a blanket statement detracting my intelligence.

4 toons in proper av fits could slay thouse mighty beasts in under a min with proper teamwork and ambush tactics. Great times and thats from when swarms lock on was slower and the forge gun shaked more than drug addict gone cold Turkey

I love it when people say stuff like this.

The average person playing Dust is in an NPC corp, and has scores like 8/12. So when the red team brings in a huge F-OFF tank these average players are not going to magically squad up, load up their AV fits and start discussing tactics to take him down.

I love it when people say stuff like this.

The average person playing Dust is in an NPC corp, and has scores like 8/12. So when the red team brings in a huge F-OFF tank these average players are not going to magically squad up, load up their AV fits and start discussing tactics to take him down.

They are good in pc

Like they would know lol and open beta starts on the 4th

Someone has to pay. Either the guy in the tank or the 16 infantry guys on the other team.

Which one do you think CCP will choose to pay?

EDIT - I'll give you a hint. The hint is - CCP took out Marauder tanks.

I feel for them but the same can be said for when a proto bear appears on the field spewing npc casual players blood all over the place. Proto tankers and proto capable players should not be matched maked with newer players. But that's a whole other kettle of fish and one that has been discussed for months now. We are talking the 15 million -25 million sp invested tankers being left high and dry once again with no love being seen till 1.7

So then get rid of squads and corps because its an unfair advantage for a casual player

If there was a squadless mode I would play it non stop, no lie. And noone playing it would ever complain about matchmaking again.

I love it when people say stuff like this.

The average person playing Dust is in an NPC corp, and has scores like 8/12. So when the red team brings in a huge F-OFF tank these average players are not going to magically squad up, load up their AV fits and start discussing tactics to take him down.

Someone has to pay. Either the guy in the tank or the 16 infantry guys on the other team.

Which one do you think CCP will choose to pay?

EDIT - I'll give you a hint. The hint is - CCP took out Marauder tanks.

True about proto players, but not to the same extent.

The casual player has a chance against proto suits because his gun can still kill the proto suit. A casual player will not have a dedicated AV fit, nor will he have the skills to evade the enemy infantry while shooting at the tank, which can murder the casual in a blink of an eye.

Tankers don't need their proto tanks back, as they can already easily take on and shrug off proto AV with STD tanks.

AV players would need one step above officer AV to even have a chance to compete with proto tanks.

Tanks should be re-labeled and the thought of the proto tanks of past should be nullified. Militia would be the new STD, STD would be the new ADV, and ADV would be proto.

The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514.

I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2

Hell, even if the Marauders came back the same way they were, they could just make an insane increase to how much they cost (even more expensive than the Enforcers; like 4 to 5 mill for the chassis) and then they would be pretty balanced. On top of that, I've lost a very well fitted Madrugar in seconds to a group of people in a dropship whom I didn't see out of my peripherals; They dropped down (only 2 people) and used remote explosives and AV grenades to wipe my tank out in a mere 3 to 5 seconds.

If there are people who are skilled enough to take out even the "beefiest" of tanks, then props to them for destroying something that will take 10+ matches easily to recover the cost. The cost alone could be the justifiable balance, and also small tweaks where needed.

Without a variety of vehicles (counting their respective echelons), this game gets stale very fast, and it has shown to be that way with a decent chunk of the community.

CCP are digging their own grave if they only care about their precious AR lovers...

Have you not heard of the notion called stacking penalty?

According to infantry, there's no stacking penalties for anything vehicle related, and we're still one-shotting installations and 2-shotting other tanks.

The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514.

I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2

I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout.

If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science.

Tankers don't need their proto tanks back, as they can already easily take on and shrug off proto AV with STD tanks.

AV players would need one step above officer AV to even have a chance to compete with proto tanks.

Tanks should be re-labeled and the thought of the proto tanks of past should be nullified. Militia would be the new STD, STD would be the new ADV, and ADV would be proto.

CCP, i know your havng trouble with getting the vehicles rehashed and out for the most undervalued people in the game in accordance to pub stompers. but as a PC vet i need my tankers and i love to see them on the other side. Vehicles dominate how you control an objective.



in order to not make them all rage quit, the answer is simple. bring back the tanks from chromosome that were always good.


Sagarises and Suryas.

not only would the tankers rejoice it would be cool to see these guys back and have the new guys experience getting stomped by the prettiest darn tank you'll ever see.

Don't be that guy CCP. Don't make our precious tankers leave.

CCP, i know your havng trouble with getting the vehicles rehashed and out for the most undervalued people in the game in accordance to pub stompers. but as a PC vet i need my tankers and i love to see them on the other side. Vehicles dominate how you control an objective.



in order to not make them all rage quit, the answer is simple. bring back the tanks from chromosome that were always good.


Sagarises and Suryas.

not only would the tankers rejoice it would be cool to see these guys back and have the new guys experience getting stomped by the prettiest darn tank you'll ever see.

Don't be that guy CCP. Don't make our precious tankers leave.

I know that there are resistance stacking penalties, but in comparison to a standard tank it would be as if a standard had severe resistances. 99% has a nice ring to it, and no one on the forums reacts to anything but gross exaggeration. That said, VERY high resistances are very possible, less possible in EVE where my corpie has a 95%~ omnitanked Rohk, but still quite high. A single active shield hardener boosts resistances by 30%. The skill behind it does not alter that, but the shield skill itself adds a 10% bonus. This leads to a 40% base bonus. If the stacking penalties are the same as EVE, the first module goes down to 50%. This means that two active can get 55%. Add a third at a 35% reduction, then you have 65.5%, only 10.5% by this point and kind of a wasted slot. Marauders had about twice the HP level of their basic brethren. This all adds up to an immensely high amount of EHP for no losses besides cost. They also had more slots, but I haven't got solid numbers there.

A Marauder needs to be a sidegrade, but there is no room for a MARAUDER anymore. Enforcers already take up the higher damage for lower survivability role. If we were to put them back in then the only sidegrade left would be more defense for less speed, which would not be a Marauder in EVE terms. If we just bring back the old Marauders, which WERE flat out better, then we wouldn't be able to counter them except with a second Marauder, which the first would shoot out of the sky. The OP didn't ask for new tanks, or a new kind of tank, or even a new set of racial tanks. He specifically asked for the Marauders from Chromosome. That, as I stated and you ignored, is a bad idea. As I stated, tanks do need something. Maybe a tankier kind of tank, maybe a slight numbers tweak, but not bringing back the Marauder class HAVs out of whatever CCP did to remove them. Could have been as simple as flipping them off the market when they did the equipment liquidizing.

I also did not insult you. You are a one-sided tank pundit. You only see things from the HAV point of view, you like driving HAVs, and you are very vocal about your love of HAVs. Not a word of that was false. You however did insult me by making a blanket statement detracting my intelligence.

the stacking penaltys do not work out like they do in Eve, your calculations are wrong. With the resistance skill maxed(10%) and the 3 proto passive sheild resistors (15%) each my total shield resist is 39.47%. Yes, i could remove one of those (then at 32.27%) for an active hardner, but they last for 10 seconds and cool for 30. it is not worth the endevor at all. With how much damage proto AV did and does and sheild tanks repping so little the sagaris required 2 ppl with forges to destroy effectively. And it was very effective, but no one in chrome had proto AV or worked together. it was glorious

They are good in pc

If either of you read all of my posts in this thread, all of which were made before you made your posts, you would look a little less like morons right now.

I wouldn't throw around the word moron so much after calling lurch a one sided tank pundit, hes one of the more balanced tankers that bother the talk on these subjects, to the point he probably puts more holes in the buff tanks crowd than a shrill doucheburger like you could ever hope to manage.

They are good in pc

I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout.

If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science.

if they do bring them back like they said they would, they would probably be worse than the enforcers which would be nearly impossible....

then we would have to redo our class system to make room for the ultra bad militia tanks

Do you have any idea how fast EVERYONE would skill into it? If the only counter to something is the same thing, we'll have a problem. In fact, as lolzy as it is to abuse the physics to kill it, wouldn't that speak volumes about how broken it is?

All I'm saying is that Marauders need to be slower than Basic tanks and have their offensive bonus stripped. If not, then give the Dropsuits their HP for higher metalevel back when you put the Marauders back. I mean, we got rid of that for reasons too, but if we're just reaching into the past everyone should get something.

yes they would get completely annihilated by the amount of Proto AV there is. want me to do the math for you? i remember my fit at the time

i know that A) most of the code for the tanks are still in the game as there are some people whoo still have sagarises and suryas in their inventory

B) the effectiveness of the tanks themselves will only be slightly more considering the amount of AV on the field in any given battle.

C) i remember when i first came onto dust and these tanks literally made you WANT to be a tanker. they were so big and cool looking and you were literally scared to see one.

D)It would be good for the game to have these back even if it's just for a SHORT WHILE AS A BAND-AID FOR TANKERS.

that is all im suggesting. throw them a bone. they deserve it. They've been waiting patienly all build running maddys.

Sag and Surya were taken out of the game. Nobody has them in their inventory. If they did, they'd take them out during a redline stomp. I haven't seen them since Chromosome.

like i said, MOST of the code is in their, however to keep people from using them (like Radar) they have made it so it cannot be fitted.

like i said, MOST of the code is in their, however to keep people from using them (like Radar) they have made it so it cannot be fitted.

no, but being a code monkey myself and also knowling what you are capable to do with the sagaris as far as having one in the inventory and being able to see the model of it, as well as it's information, that the item is still in the game. meaning that the code behind it is there as well. you can also go and try to make a it but anything you put on it is invalid, meaning that they have manipulated it so that you cannot make a fitting ergo you cannot use it.


it's called a brain moron, use it.

CCP, i know your havng trouble with getting the vehicles rehashed and out for the most undervalued people in the game in accordance to pub stompers. but as a PC vet i need my tankers and i love to see them on the other side. Vehicles dominate how you control an objective.



in order to not make them all rage quit, the answer is simple. bring back the tanks from chromosome that were always good.


Sagarises and Suryas.

not only would the tankers rejoice it would be cool to see these guys back and have the new guys experience getting stomped by the prettiest darn tank you'll ever see.

Don't be that guy CCP. Don't make our precious tankers leave.

and why shouldnt tankers have proto tanks? why is it all about infintry? ive seen guys running proto suits get the ssame amount of kills as tanks and not die yet when a tank does it its op?

the stacking penaltys do not work out like they do in Eve, your calculations are wrong. With the resistance skill maxed(10%) and the 3 proto passive sheild resistors (15%) each my total shield resist is 39.47%. Yes, i could remove one of those (then at 32.27%) for an active hardner, but they last for 10 seconds and cool for 30. it is not worth the endevor at all. With how much damage proto AV did and does and sheild tanks repping so little the sagaris required 2 ppl with forges to destroy effectively. And it was very effective, but no one in chrome had proto AV or worked together. it was glorious

Two fatties from a dropship with proto forges could rip a Sagaris a new hole in less than 4 seconds. Drop, nades, shot.

You know, before DS's got screwed even more with uprising.

I wouldn't throw around the word moron so much after calling lurch a one sided tank pundit, hes one of the more balanced tankers that bother the talk on these subjects, to the point he probably puts more holes in the buff tanks crowd than a shrill doucheburger like you could ever hope to manage.

I never called Lurch a moron, I called those who couldn't be arsed to read the entire thread before commenting morons. It is an understandable position, yes?

Furthermore, I understand that tanks need a buff, but Lurch is very much a one-sided tank pundit because he is smart. Unlike the King of QQ, he doesn't go into self-parody, and I respect him for that. However, he does understand that if tanks are over-buffed then they'll go right back on the chopping block. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down, and never has that been truer than in this game, as Chromosome tankers or Flaylock spammers can attest. It is a joy to actually argue a point with someone on the forums when most of its occupants are quite content with one sentence fits of rage, but it helps to try and see everyone's agenda. This is New Eden after all, everyone is either smart enough to have plans within plans, or is gloriously, incurably insane.

To put it another way, I'm sure most AR users would love a damage buff, but the Lurches of ARs are smart enough to know that if that happened they would get nerfed passed their original damage output. Also, 'doucheburger'... that's a new one, and not a very appetizing thought.

It's called not all of us code, not all of us are cut out for IT, it's called not all of us had the SP spare to skill into either the Sagaris or Surya. I had some as salvage. CCP gave me the ISK worth for those. I don't have them anymore. Therefore, if I don't have them anymore, nobody has them anymore. CCP did this for everybody. You might have had one or 2 of those hulls as salvage, but you don't have them anymore, because CCP removed them from the game. Variations are listed in the information about the hulls.

Two fatties from a dropship with proto forges could rip a Sagaris a new hole in less than 4 seconds. Drop, nades, shot.

You know, before DS's got screwed even more with uprising.