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CCP dont make the tankers leave in 1.6, bring back Sagaris and Suryas

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Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1044	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:10:00 - [1] - Quote The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514. I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1049	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:41:00 - [2] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514. I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2 You don't know anything it seems. I hope people don't read your post and take it to other threads. I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout. If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1049	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:46:00 - [3] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514. I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2 But that would mean that the best counter to a Sagaris, is a Surya with a NOS module. What's the problem with that? Do you have any idea how fast us tank pilots would skill into it? Do you have any idea how fast EVERYONE would skill into it? If the only counter to something is the same thing, we'll have a problem. In fact, as lolzy as it is to abuse the physics to kill it, wouldn't that speak volumes about how broken it is? All I'm saying is that Marauders need to be slower than Basic tanks and have their offensive bonus stripped. If not, then give the Dropsuits their HP for higher metalevel back when you put the Marauders back. I mean, we got rid of that for reasons too, but if we're just reaching into the past everyone should get something.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1050	Posted - 2013.10.01 19:44:00 - [4] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514. I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2 You don't know anything it seems. I hope people don't read your post and take it to other threads. I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout. If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science. /facepalm k it seems there isnt much point to debating with you as you seem to be angry and not operating on facts. 99% resist? no There is a mechanic called a stacking penalty for modules to prevent spamming a certain attribute like damage mods. Marauders being flat out better? no Marauders as we knew them are no longer in existence. Hell they used to have a flat 50% damage increase to everything. You can say this or that but the fact of the matter is marauders and black-ops tanks do not exist at this point and will not exist in a similar form in the future. Its like arguing about the balancing of remotes from back in E3 when you could throw them like grenades. Yeah, they weren't balanced but they also do not exist in that form anymore. In EVE marauders gain offensive power in exchange for greatly reduced survivability. It is more of a sidegrade than a higher tier ship and are not used in PVP since they are basically purpose built for PVE missions and ratting. They are also very expensive and are actually worth their price tags. Enforcers are a red-headed stepchild that never had a use, much like the black-ops tanks. Other than that, im glad you feel that your friend is a good driver. That's nice. Is there anything else you would like me to educate you on or are you just going to be angry and insult me some more? I know that there are resistance stacking penalties, but in comparison to a standard tank it would be as if a standard had severe resistances. 99% has a nice ring to it, and no one on the forums reacts to anything but gross exaggeration. That said, VERY high resistances are very possible, less possible in EVE where my corpie has a 95%~ omnitanked Rohk, but still quite high. A single active shield hardener boosts resistances by 30%. The skill behind it does not alter that, but the shield skill itself adds a 10% bonus. This leads to a 40% base bonus. If the stacking penalties are the same as EVE, the first module goes down to 50%. This means that two active can get 55%. Add a third at a 35% reduction, then you have 65.5%, only 10.5% by this point and kind of a wasted slot. Marauders had about twice the HP level of their basic brethren. This all adds up to an immensely high amount of EHP for no losses besides cost. They also had more slots, but I haven't got solid numbers there. A Marauder needs to be a sidegrade, but there is no room for a MARAUDER anymore. Enforcers already take up the higher damage for lower survivability role. If we were to put them back in then the only sidegrade left would be more defense for less speed, which would not be a Marauder in EVE terms. If we just bring back the old Marauders, which WERE flat out better, then we wouldn't be able to counter them except with a second Marauder, which the first would shoot out of the sky. The OP didn't ask for new tanks, or a new kind of tank, or even a new set of racial tanks. He specifically asked for the Marauders from Chromosome. That, as I stated and you ignored, is a bad idea. As I stated, tanks do need something. Maybe a tankier kind of tank, maybe a slight numbers tweak, but not bringing back the Marauder class HAVs out of whatever CCP did to remove them. Could have been as simple as flipping them off the market when they did the equipment liquidizing. I also did not insult you. You are a one-sided tank pundit. You only see things from the HAV point of view, you like driving HAVs, and you are very vocal about your love of HAVs. Not a word of that was false. You however did insult me by making a blanket statement detracting my intelligence.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1057	Posted - 2013.10.02 00:50:00 - [5] - Quote Asirius Medaius wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514. I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2 You don't know anything it seems. I hope people don't read your post and take it to other threads. I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout. If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science. Hell, even if the Marauders came back the same way they were, they could just make an insane increase to how much they cost (even more expensive than the Enforcers; like 4 to 5 mill for the chassis) and then they would be pretty balanced. On top of that, I've lost a very well fitted Madrugar in seconds to a group of people in a dropship whom I didn't see out of my peripherals; They dropped down (only 2 people) and used remote explosives and AV grenades to wipe my tank out in a mere 3 to 5 seconds. If there are people who are skilled enough to take out even the "beefiest" of tanks, then props to them for destroying something that will take 10+ matches easily to recover the cost. The cost alone could be the justifiable balance, and also small tweaks where needed. Without a variety of vehicles (counting their respective echelons), this game gets stale very fast, and it has shown to be that way with a decent chunk of the community. CCP are digging their own grave if they only care about their precious AR lovers... I take offense to that last one, my good ser. I despise the AR, but I do want to see vehicles succeed very badly. I may not have the vested interest that a Vehicle player does, but the presence of vehicles that matter in combat is one of the things I feel the game needs to add to it's draw. Have a player join his first game and see an HAV supporting a squad and he'll want to be that HAV. If he sees the HAV kill everything unopposed, he'll cry BS and leave the game. If the HAV dies in seconds from across the map, he'll never even want to try it. There has got to be a balance, but bringing back the Marauder is the second option. Even if you raise the cost, then it will become an in game example of P2W(how meta is that), with only the obscenely rich able to afford them. Chances are, the ones with that much money laying around are the MLT-STD AR users, not the tankers. We can't make the monetariy need a major balancing point, especially seeing as once the game is integrated into EVE, PLAYERS will be making the equipment. What will they make? What people will buy. EVERYONE will rush to crap out Marauder tanks for us, until they pollute the market to the degree that you can pick one up for an Isk-fiddy... or until Goonswarm buys them all to reset the market price to a more reasonable level. I do agree on this though. There need to be three kinds of Air and three kinds of Ground vehicle, one of each size class, and one of each race of all six. That is 24 vehicles that they need to have before they even think about putting vehicles on the back burner. They technically have SIX of those, if you don't count that they are being overhauled as well. I understand that they need work, I really do, but they need more than a cost limiter. Titans cost more IRL tan low income families make in a year, if memory serves. Still doesn't keep them from being nigh-useless without a cyno ship and someone to kill Battecruisers and below.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1058	Posted - 2013.10.02 02:11:00 - [6] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514. I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2 Have you not heard of the notion called stacking penalty? According to infantry, there's no stacking penalties for anything vehicle related, and we're still one-shotting installations and 2-shotting other tanks. If either of you read all of my posts in this thread, all of which were made before you made your posts, you would look a little less like morons right now.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1066	Posted - 2013.10.04 06:06:00 - [7] - Quote johnhonorcrest2 wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The Saggy and Surya shouldn't be brought back, not now that we have active hardeners. You could very well push the thing's resistance into 99% and then some. The old Sag and Sur are far too powerful, birthed from the no-longer-CCP BLAM's feverish notion that vehicles do not need infantry support and that they are the endgame. If they were to bring them back, they would need to alter them heavily. Their attack bonus is obviously now taken by the Enforcer, and having too much defensive power without something lost, namely speed, would make them as uncrackable as they used to be. I'm sure they would eventually still die, put a moron at the helm and a Jovian Mothership is toast, but the old Marauders have no place in the current DUST514. I do, however, believe that tankers and vehicle users in general need something. Not anything, but something. Hell, we all need something after 1.4.2 You don't know anything it seems. I hope people don't read your post and take it to other threads. I know enough you one-sided tank pundit. The Sag and Sur have far too much EHP. If we were to insert them here unaltered, then they would be leagues better than any other tank on the market. Not better bexause of flawed design choices, or better due to circumstance, but flat out better. They were labeled as Marauders, but most players knew of the Sag and Sur as Prototype Tanks due to how much better they were in every area, and areas where they weren't better they were at the very least on par. Marauders need to have a role to fit in to the new DUST system, and seeing as Enforcers are the fast and hard hitters, the Marauders need to be the slow and tanky ones. The Heavy to the Enforcer's Scout. If they are entered in as they were, they just wouldn't die. If you're having tank problems, I feel for you. I've been a Logi since Mordu, back when Logi suits were a 16x skill, and I get shafted every few updates because boosters leech my class and because Assaults used the Caldari version as a supersuit. But I've seen what tanks can do. My tanker buddy does 32-0 standard in a Soma. Give him a Surya and you will make an unsinkable abortion of science. and why shouldnt tankers have proto tanks? why is it all about infintry? ive seen guys running proto suits get the ssame amount of kills as tanks and not die yet when a tank does it its op? When did I say I wanted proto anything? I dislike the tiered method we have in DUST in it's entirety, which you could have inferred when I said vehicles not having a set of tiers was 'progressive.' You just decided to roll out the 'infantry have tiers so should we' argument against me. Furthermore, your comment just proves my point; namely that Marauders were never a sidegrade, and were so powerful as to be mistaken for proto-tier tanks back when 'prototype' meant 'holcrapbuiltinHP'
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1066	Posted - 2013.10.04 06:15:00 - [8] - Quote Exmaple Core wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: I know that there are resistance stacking penalties, but in comparison to a standard tank it would be as if a standard had severe resistances. 99% has a nice ring to it, and no one on the forums reacts to anything but gross exaggeration. That said, VERY high resistances are very possible, less possible in EVE where my corpie has a 95%~ omnitanked Rohk, but still quite high. A single active shield hardener boosts resistances by 30%. The skill behind it does not alter that, but the shield skill itself adds a 10% bonus. This leads to a 40% base bonus. If the stacking penalties are the same as EVE, the first module goes down to 50%. This means that two active can get 55%. Add a third at a 35% reduction, then you have 65.5%, only 10.5% by this point and kind of a wasted slot. Marauders had about twice the HP level of their basic brethren. This all adds up to an immensely high amount of EHP for no losses besides cost. They also had more slots, but I haven't got solid numbers there. A Marauder needs to be a sidegrade, but there is no room for a MARAUDER anymore. Enforcers already take up the higher damage for lower survivability role. If we were to put them back in then the only sidegrade left would be more defense for less speed, which would not be a Marauder in EVE terms. If we just bring back the old Marauders, which WERE flat out better, then we wouldn't be able to counter them except with a second Marauder, which the first would shoot out of the sky. The OP didn't ask for new tanks, or a new kind of tank, or even a new set of racial tanks. He specifically asked for the Marauders from Chromosome. That, as I stated and you ignored, is a bad idea. As I stated, tanks do need something. Maybe a tankier kind of tank, maybe a slight numbers tweak, but not bringing back the Marauder class HAVs out of whatever CCP did to remove them. Could have been as simple as flipping them off the market when they did the equipment liquidizing. I also did not insult you. You are a one-sided tank pundit. You only see things from the HAV point of view, you like driving HAVs, and you are very vocal about your love of HAVs. Not a word of that was false. You however did insult me by making a blanket statement detracting my intelligence. the stacking penaltys do not work out like they do in Eve, your calculations are wrong. With the resistance skill maxed(10%) and the 3 proto passive sheild resistors (15%) each my total shield resist is 39.47%. Yes, i could remove one of those (then at 32.27%) for an active hardner, but they last for 10 seconds and cool for 30. it is not worth the endevor at all. With how much damage proto AV did and does and sheild tanks repping so little the sagaris required 2 ppl with forges to destroy effectively. And it was very effective, but no one in chrome had proto AV or worked together. it was glorious I'd like to state that my math IS right. I did it for the ACTIVE hardeners. You did it for the PASSIVE ones, and are also right. In fact, I checked your math and came up a bit short using the EVE stacking penalties of 100%, 50%, 35%, I think DUST has a 40% instead of 35. I hope that active tanking will be more feasible after Wolfman's rehaul, which will hopefully add Capacitors, but until then I stand firm by the notion that flicking on a pair of Active hardeners after being shot with significant damage will give you enough time to flee to safety, especially on the newer maps.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1066	Posted - 2013.10.04 06:24:00 - [9] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Two fatties from a dropship with proto forges could rip a Sagaris a new hole in less than 4 seconds. Drop, nades, shot. You know, before DS's got screwed even more with uprising. Two Tornadoes can get cynoed on top of a Rokh and tear it a new hole. What is your point exactly? In either scenario, it's a three-to-one fight, with the larger, more powerful guy being torn apart by numbers and tactics. If the numbers were even, then the HAV/Rohk could probably easily counter the assault.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1066	Posted - 2013.10.04 06:37:00 - [10] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: If either of you read all of my posts in this thread, all of which were made before you made your posts, you would look a little less like morons right now. I wouldn't throw around the word moron so much after calling lurch a one sided tank pundit, hes one of the more balanced tankers that bother the talk on these subjects, to the point he probably puts more holes in the buff tanks crowd than a shrill doucheburger like you could ever hope to manage. I never called Lurch a moron, I called those who couldn't be arsed to read the entire thread before commenting morons. It is an understandable position, yes? Furthermore, I understand that tanks need a buff, but Lurch is very much a one-sided tank pundit because he is smart. Unlike the King of QQ, he doesn't go into self-parody, and I respect him for that. However, he does understand that if tanks are over-buffed then they'll go right back on the chopping block. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down, and never has that been truer than in this game, as Chromosome tankers or Flaylock spammers can attest. It is a joy to actually argue a point with someone on the forums when most of its occupants are quite content with one sentence fits of rage, but it helps to try and see everyone's agenda. This is New Eden after all, everyone is either smart enough to have plans within plans, or is gloriously, incurably insane. To put it another way, I'm sure most AR users would love a damage buff, but the Lurches of ARs are smart enough to know that if that happened they would get nerfed passed their original damage output. Also, 'doucheburger'... that's a new one, and not a very appetizing thought.

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