A few issues with your conversation. Assaults and heavies would nullify there bonus against each other. And they would destroy the other classes. And for double the range of the repper is no point. Its a risk and reward system. You have to earn the wp points. Double the range and becomes free wp which is unbalanced in its self.

If you want me to read that ****, you need bullet points.

I'll respond based on your title: CCP announced several weeks ago that they plan to have equipment based bonuses on the Logis but that there is an issue with the coding so they will be changing it sometime in the 'future'.

A few issues with your conversation. Assaults and heavies would nullify there bonus against each other. And they would destroy the other classes. And for double the range of the repper is no point. Its a risk and reward system. You have to earn the wp points. Double the range and becomes free wp which is unbalanced in its self.

Double Rep range is not a decent bonus. For one, with the changes to health bar visibility in the 1.4 update you can barely tell when someone needs reps even if they are standing right in front of you. So extending the range is no good IMO.

As for changing Logistics bonuses, I thought that was in the works already. Although, I am pretty happy with Minmater Logi bonuses as they stand right now.

And I honestly can't believe we are talking about Logistics being OP again. This is pipe dream fantasy world urban legend crap now. I am a 17+ million SP Minmater Logi with maxed Electronics/Engineering and pretty much all efficiency skills maxed and I cannot fit my Proto suit to reach 800 hit points. And that is running mediocre equipment.

I must be playing a different game tho, because I tend to get killed by all weapons and classes pretty evenly.

The problem with logis is that they have to many module slots, to much pg cpu and not enough relevant bonuses!! The bonuses dont have to be strong, but that doesnt mean you cant have more than 2?

Logis need to swap there module slots with the assult class

have the same pg/cpu as the assult currently,

a bonus then needs to be applied to drastically reduce the requirments of equipment,
so that a logi will be able to fit out all of their equipment for the same requirments as an assault running 1 equipment,

then you need a bonus to nanite cluster capacity, as much as 50%,
this should be applied to all nanohives

finally repair tools need either a range or number of targets to repair bonus, this makes the multi tool even more powerful

This would be a great improvement for logis

Yeah we have more slots...because we have less base HP than Assault. So in order to equip defense and support modules we need the extra slots.

Yeah we have more CPU/PG because we are 'expected' to carry support equipment to help the team.

The only way a Logistics suit becomes 'unbalanced' is when the player does not fill the equipment slots and uses the extra CPU/PG to equip better offensive/defensive modules. This can easily be eliminated by making the use of equipment slots in Logistics dropsuits mandatory for the suit to be valid, much like you have to equip a weapon for all suits to be valid.

Of course you have those who cry foul that such a requirement infringes on their 'freedom' to do what they want with a suit. These are generally players who don't play Logistics the way it should be played. So as a dedicated 'True Logi', I say take your 'freedom' QQ, roll it up and smoke it.

Because no self-respecting Logistics player ever deploys to the Burn Zone with empty equipment slots.

You're forgetting a better option that allows for the possibility of a player NOT fitting and playing the role of Logi "as instended", without letting them turn the suit into a super-Assault or super-Scout or speed-tanked Heavy.

Don't force players to fill the equipment slots, but majorly reduce PG/CPU on the suits. Then give Logis a massive reduction to fitting costs on ALL equipment as a role/suit bonus. Now, your Logi suits are limited in their ability to fit for a non-Logi role, but you CAN choose to drop your (absurdly cheap) Equipment in order to add a slightly better plate/extender/whatever instead.

If we're going to change logistic bonuses, they need to be based on equipment from a general sense and not tied specifically to certain modules. That's completely shortsighted when you think of other gadgets we might be getting. Also, if you take away my hacking bonus, I'm officially done with Dust.

If we're going to change logistic bonuses, they need to be based on equipment from a general sense and not tied specifically to certain modules. That's completely shortsighted when you think of other gadgets we might be getting. Also, if you take away my hacking bonus, I'm officially done with Dust.

A few issues with your conversation. Assaults and heavies would nullify there bonus against each other. And they would destroy the other classes. And for double the range of the repper is no point. Its a risk and reward system. You have to earn the wp points. Double the range and becomes free wp which is unbalanced in its self.

Yeah we have more slots...because we have less base HP than Assault. So in order to equip defense and support modules we need the extra slots.

Yeah we have more CPU/PG because we are 'expected' to carry support equipment to help the team.

The only way a Logistics suit becomes 'unbalanced' is when the player does not fill the equipment slots and uses the extra CPU/PG to equip better offensive/defensive modules. This can easily be eliminated by making the use of equipment slots in Logistics dropsuits mandatory for the suit to be valid, much like you have to equip a weapon for all suits to be valid.

Of course you have those who cry foul that such a requirement infringes on their 'freedom' to do what they want with a suit. These are generally players who don't play Logistics the way it should be played. So as a dedicated 'True Logi', I say take your 'freedom' QQ, roll it up and smoke it.

Because no self-respecting Logistics player ever deploys to the Burn Zone with empty equipment slots.

Why would that be?

If they changed the bonuses, there's a chance that as part of such a major revision, they'd re-credit SP spent in those specific areas, as we're talking about redefining a role entirely, not just nerfing a single suit.

As well, what if that hacking bonus were to be applied to Scout suits? Or maybe to the as-yet undiscussed Spec Ops specialization that could be seen to be a Medium suit back on Buckingham before they migrated us to other test servers?

Honestly, I think giving a reconnaissance focused suit a way to slip around and quickly flip objectives would be a great way to reward those who specced into that suit.

Why would that be?

If they changed the bonuses, there's a chance that as part of such a major revision, they'd re-credit SP spent in those specific areas, as we're talking about redefining a role entirely, not just nerfing a single suit.

As well, what if that hacking bonus were to be applied to Scout suits? Or maybe to the as-yet undiscussed Spec Ops specialization that could be seen to be a Medium suit back on Buckingham before they migrated us to other test servers?

Honestly, I think giving a reconnaissance focused suit a way to slip around and quickly flip objectives would be a great way to reward those who specced into that suit.

How to balance logis?

Change passive reps to 10% CPU/PG on equipment per level.
Give us the same PG/CPU as assault suits.

...

Profit!

Specific equipment bonuses are cool, as long as they don't pidgeonhole each suit into a specific role, making them inferior to the other suits for other equipment based tasks.

When I first logged in for Uprising 1.0 I carefully planned out my build. Calculated how much SP everything would cost, what kind of fit I wanted to run and what weapon I wanted to use. One of the hardest choices was what logi suit I wanted to use- Gallente or Minmatar. I spent a good 2 hours, weighing the options on if I wanted a fully equipment oriented armor tanking brick or a mobile scout/logi hybrid suit that could hack things like a boss. I specced into Minmatar logi because of that hacking bonus and made a build specifically for it along with my other equipment fittings. I'm sick and tired of CCP flipping everything around because of a bunch of ill informed morons listening to other ill informed morons to the point that people don't even know what they want anymore and the devs just bend over backwards to appease the current kneejerk reaction. All this drama started over one logistics suit that was extremely OP and I thought this would be resolved after it was nerfed (way too hard) but I was wrong. It's a matter of principles here. How many times is something that players invested their hard earned SP into going to be turned upside down due to a trail of tears by narrow minded, short sighted idiots? You take away my hacking bonus, I better get a SP respec so I can spec into Caldari Assault with an AR since that's apparently the only way you can safely play the game.
You guys can have your little IRC circle jerk about re-balancing the game if you want, but if we keep ******* each other over like this, nobody is going to stick around to play.

When I first logged in for Uprising 1.0 I carefully planned out my build. Calculated how much SP everything would cost, what kind of fit I wanted to run and what weapon I wanted to use. One of the hardest choices was what logi suit I wanted to use- Gallente or Minmatar. I spent a good 2 hours, weighing the options on if I wanted a fully equipment oriented armor tanking brick or a mobile scout/logi hybrid suit that could hack things like a boss. I specced into Minmatar logi because of that hacking bonus and made a build specifically for it along with my other equipment fittings. I'm sick and tired of CCP flipping everything around because of a bunch of ill informed morons listening to other ill informed morons to the point that people don't even know what they want anymore and the devs just bend over backwards to appease the current kneejerk reaction. All this drama started over one logistics suit that was extremely OP and I thought this would be resolved after it was nerfed (way too hard) but I was wrong. It's a matter of principles here. How many times is something that players invested their hard earned SP into going to be turned upside down due to a trail of tears by narrow minded, short sighted idiots? You take away my hacking bonus, I better get a SP respec so I can spec into Caldari Assault with an AR since that's apparently the only way you can safely play the game.
You guys can have your little IRC circle jerk about re-balancing the game if you want, but if we keep ******* each other over like this, nobody is going to stick around to play.

Why not give the Assaults the same slots and CPU/PG as Logis; buff Assaults, don't nerf Logis.

I have a hard enough time playing my role correctly without such a nerf.

I actually haven't been in IRC in ages, but I already understand where you were coming from.

We've had several members of the CPM express support for the idea of limited SP reverts in the case of major changes that redefine an asset, and given how they're looking at almost completely redefining vehicles for the next point release, I would imagine that a release that changed that many classes of suit all at once would fit the same bill.

Calm yourself, Logis can keep there module layout, hell the min can probably keep the hack bonus, I dont have a problem with the suits being OP what I do have problem with is that a logi can fill all the roles this game needs, if you cant see that then your just kidding yourself from a suit that really shines!!

Logis make better scouts than a scout suit,
Logis make better assaults than assaults,
Logis make better heavies than heavies

You cant deny it, you know you cant, we're not talking about ruining it, were talking about getting it to a point where it doesnt infringe on other suits roles!!

Logis should be able to play multiple roles, from hacker, to medic, to engineer, to demolitions, to communications, to ewarfare.
But other suits need to have their own roles to.

I'd be more than happy to get equipment PG/CPU role bonus on my Amarr logi but I'm left wondering how would this affect the Amarr logi as it is meant to be more of a frontline logi as it has both Lightweapon and Sidearm slots?

All in all this is a good idea and I hope for a constructive discussion :3

How many of these rebalances are going to be around short term fixes that CCP seems to have forgotten? Weapons got a 10% damage boost to compensate for the terrible aiming mechanics and vehicles got a PG nerf to "give new players a chance" when they decided matchmaking wasn't a priority. I'm not trusting any changes anymore with this game because nobody every focuses on cleaning up their mess. This is why we have 1.4 and this is why we can't have nice things.

Good luck getting constructive when everyone wants logis to be free kills in a FPS.

Changing the classes skill would be a VERY big nerf.

Weapons received a 10% damage boost to make up for losing ten percent damage from the Weaponry skill bonus being changed. If they hadn't done that, that change would have effectively nerfed every single infantry weapon in the game.

Posting the following info on upcoming changes to weapon damage and HMG balance on behalf of CCP Rement since he's knee deep in making these changes. He will also be answer questions and discussing this topic in this thread as well.

Tl;dr version:
GÇó In the next hot-fix weapons will all get a 10% damage increase to compensate for the removal of the Weaponry skill bonus.
GÇó HMG damage buffed to 18 HP (including aforementioned 10% increase) and given a 5% dispersion buff.
GÇó In the near future, we will address range issues by removing the hard stop that currently takes place at maximum weapon range.

In Chromosome, the Weaponry skill gave an across the board 2% damage bonus to handheld weapons per level. Given the low SP cost of the skill (and the fact that itGÇÖs a pre-req for every weapon in the game) the majority of players would just skill straight to level 5 making the skill pretty pointless. So, in Uprising we removed the skill bonus. The side effect of this, of course, is that time-to-kill has increased.

This, combined with some of the control issues weGÇÖve been seeing, has led to combat feeling worse than it did in Chromosome. We will address this with a hot-fix that gives an across the board 10% increase to all handheld weapon damage to put DPS back to where it was. Additionally, weGÇÖve increased HMG damage and reduced the dispersion penalty when moving by 5% to address issues with the weapon....

The Powergrid bonus was removed because it served as a means to disrupt the balance they were trying to achieve of having roles for vehicles rather than meta levels like the suits. I personally believe the vehicles need the same treatment of recouping some of that PG loss, and I hope that's part of what's on the table for the 1.5 release.

Hi all. I've been reading through and we appreciate your feedback.

You're right about the vehicle engineering skill. For the other posters, I'm assuming you mean the vehicle core upgrades skill?

The reason for lowering the overall bonus was to allow us to create a more varied difference in between our different vehicle roles within the same class. This will become more apparent in the future when we release even more roles with different slot layouts. We also want to make sure that new players have a fighting chance against more skill point rich players who can enjoy the benefit of compounding premium module bonuses in the same fitting. We'll be keeping a close eye on how this nets out in vehicle combat, and ensure that we still afford you the ability to create interesting and unique fits to compliment your combat experience.

Best regards,
- CCP Blam!

Why not give the Assaults the same slots and CPU/PG as Logis; buff Assaults, don't nerf Logis.

I have a hard enough time playing my role correctly without such a nerf.

Your first post reinforces what I said about them feeling DPS was too low for all weapons after they removed that bonus.

Also, one sentence above the area you helpfully underlined was what Blam! described as the primary reason for the Powergrid change, as you can see that I have bolded and underlined for emphasis.

The idea of balancing combat around the idea of new players was listed after the word "Also", indicating that it was a secondary consideration.

As long as logis get the same base hp as assaults then I could live with that.

Do you not quite understand the fact that assaults need more hp so that they can ASSAULT.

Do you not quite understand the fact that assaults need more hp so that they can ASSAULT.

Part of the reason for suggesting the range bonus for the Logistics suits would be so that they could repair from further back, even from behind cover, to help make up for having less HP.

Assaults have more base HP, speed, stamina, shield recharge delay, shield regen (kind of useless for armor tankers, I know) and the get to carry 2 weapons. You can't have it all.

Sure we can, they're the characteristics of an assault class, just like logistics can support the team (in the process getting waaaay more wp than using a logi for assaulting)

We need a dev in here. I see alot of good ideas in here. Lets make dust to the game it should be.

Part of this is defined roles. I want to feel that I'm assault. So make bonus as intended. Helping me do my role while other roles gain other specified advantages. Thats definately the way to go.

I'm a caldari assault cko, and compared to the logi cko I'm a pile of sh!t

The day I get to assault in an assault suit without being outclassed by a logi, i'll be a VERY happy dust bunny

This is a FPS, everyone is essentially an assault. Some use smaller frames, some use medium frames, some use heavy frames, some have more equipment and module slots, some have less module slots and a sidearm... you get the point? I support my team, and I lay down covering fire when I need to. When New Eden has a geneva convention, I'll put my gun down and be you're personal pack *****.

This is a FPS, everyone is essentially an assault. Some use smaller frames, some use medium frames, some use heavy frames, some have more equipment and module slots, some have less module slots and a sidearm... you get the point? I support my team, and I lay down covering fire when I need to. When New Eden has a geneva convention, I'll put my gun down and be you're personal pack *****.

With all due respect your just not that good sorry. If you was good your slightly superior stats would see you win that fight.

Surely the assault class should be better at assaulting than the other classes, not have it as a basic layout to base the other suits around.

caldari logi with 1000+ ehp and proto weapons, not to mention all the people flocking their equipment, yeah I'm defo outclassed by that, if you aren't then you must be a god...

We're not talking about reducing Logi to sidearms only or trying to nerf them so bad they can't do anything but hide behind other suits.

We're talking about trying to make them truly excel as a support class, and last I checked, the support classes in most other games still get guns, and are still useful with them.

Hell, the Support class in Battlefield is the only one that can use light machine guns.

The support class in Battlefield can use LMGs because nobody would play it if they didn't.

All I'm saying is don't make the bonuses gear specific because some logis don't use certain pieces of equipment and it's only going to get worse when new stuff comes out. That bubble shield looks really appealing- oh wait, I only have bonuses for a repair tool...

The support class in Battlefield can use LMGs because nobody would play it if they didn't.

All I'm saying is don't make the bonuses gear specific because some logis don't use certain pieces of equipment and it's only going to get worse when new stuff comes out. That bubble shield looks really appealing- oh wait, I only have bonuses for a repair tool...

I was thinking more along the lines of equipment efficiency, with less cpu/pg than it would be say for and assault suit, meaning if logis had lower cpu/pg they could easily fit the equipment but we wouldn't have them pushing other roles to the bottom of the food chain.

Just an idea it doesn't matter if you hate it

(Quote)
That's what I've been saying. I even made a topic on it too.
-Give the Gallente racial to all logi suits as their logi suit bonus.
-Give Gallente Logi a new racial. (something to do with plate movement penalty)
-Everyone can finally STFU about logistics. Oh, and buff assaults or something.... (Quote)

Now THIS... is legit balancing

As much as I learned to appreciate that +5 HP/s regen, if it gets everyone to shut up about logistics, I'll give it up. This is assuming that whatever the hell is wrong with 1.4 gets fixed. Longer TTK, strafing, and toned down AA.

I agree... Although I would rather see every suit get passive armor regen to better differentiate armor vs shield tanking.

As much as I learned to appreciate that +5 HP/s regen, if it gets everyone to shut up about logistics, I'll give it up. This is assuming that whatever the hell is wrong with 1.4 gets fixed. Longer TTK, strafing, and toned down AA.

Deal!

I agree... Although I would rather see every suit get passive armor regen to better differentiate armor vs shield tanking.

I think the last 2 pages is all the devs need to read lol

What's really going to happen is someone is going to make a rage topic with some outlandish nerf worse than sidearm restrictions and blue tags will be all over it.

Did we forget Amarr logi is a assault type.Those ideas are not balanced for it.If this is the case then take away everyone but logi equipment slots.

Did we forget Amarr logi is a assault type.Those ideas are not balanced for it.If this is the case then take away everyone but logi equipment slots. Last time I checked OP QQ about logis with Ars.But there's nothing wrong with Ars just logi.

Have not read anything past the OP.

But why not add an equipment state like PG/CPU and call it EQ and give a suit a certain amount of EQ to allow it to fit equipment. Then you reduce the Logi suit's PG/CPU.

Read the last two pages, very good ideas circulating.

How does doubling the range of the repair tool equate to free War Points? The idea here is to allow the suit to excel beyond all others at its intended role, which is the point of the role system in the first place.

So you obviously didn't scroll down and read what was underneath the copypasta.

You also just clarified that you're either incapable of or unwilling to read anything not broken down into little bulleted statements for you.

You do read books, right?

Double repair tool range+lai dai flux repper? Two targets, 35hp, 63m range... Let's think about that distance for a second.

Is the current idea most people have agreed upon the boost to repair tool range? Because I feel that is bit pointless.

What I'd rather see is have TTK go back to Chromosome levels through weapon rebalancing and then giving Assault suits a built in damage mod. That will help with their assaulting role.

If you want logis to focus on equipment and not tank I still believe that adding a new fitting requirement would be the easiest way to do that. You'd reduce logis PG/CPU which would give them limited choices in the slots and would not allow them to tank as easily. They would need to pick and choose and nobody would choose the logi suit as the suit to stack HP on anymore due to the limited PG/CPU.

However by adding an EQ fitting requirement to suits you could give each suit a certain amount of EQ. Let's say for an example a suit has 300 CPU and 250 PG but only has 50 EQ. The logi suit on the other hand would only have maybe 100 CPU and 75 PG with 125 EQ. (These are just random numbers).

Adding another bar is pointless, wasteful and a worse idea than what you seem to think has been going on. It's a slightly LESS bad idea than thinking an on-topic post which got no replies was worth making another thread about, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

The actual idea people were kicking around is a reduction of PG/CPU on Logi suits, but paired with a fitting bonus for equipment, so everything in your equipment slots will cost less of your now-limited PG/CPU to equip. That way, a Logi has those extra high, low and equipment slots, but doesn't have extra PG and CPU to make a massive tank of any kind (armour, shield, dual, stealth, speed) unless they skimp on their equipment slots to do it. Even then, it won't make them any better than one of the dedicated-role suits fitting for the same task. What they CAN do is bring more equipment (A LOT more) with minimal penalty to their ability to fit for other areas.

The talk about a repair tool range buff was a possible racial bonus, NOT the overall Logi bonus. And in that capacity, it's a really good idea, but it might need some testing to determine an appropriate value for this bonus and any others that might come up on the other Logi suits.

Adding another bar is pointless, wasteful and a worse idea than what you seem to think has been going on. It's a slightly LESS bad idea than thinking an on-topic post which got no replies was worth making another thread about, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

The actual idea people were kicking around is a reduction of PG/CPU on Logi suits, but paired with a fitting bonus for equipment, so everything in your equipment slots will cost less of your now-limited PG/CPU to equip. That way, a Logi has those extra high, low and equipment slots, but doesn't have extra PG and CPU to make a massive tank of any kind (armour, shield, dual, stealth, speed) unless they skimp on their equipment slots to do it. Even then, it won't make them any better than one of the dedicated-role suits fitting for the same task. What they CAN do is bring more equipment (A LOT more) with minimal penalty to their ability to fit for other areas.

The talk about a repair tool range buff was a possible racial bonus, NOT the overall Logi bonus. And in that capacity, it's a really good idea, but it might need some testing to determine an appropriate value for this bonus and any others that might come up on the other Logi suits.

The equipment bonuses would be more fitting if there were a secondary skill tree for equipment, similar to weapons as discussed here.

This bonus would come at the cost of the +5hp/s bonus logis already get right?

And all suits would get some kind of inherent armor regen like the Minmatar medium/assault.

Quick question... Is there really a logical reason why every suit should have passive armour rep built in? As far as I can see, adding that would further homogenise the two damage types, because everything has base regen now.

And stemming from that, if a suit SHOULD have a bonus like that, why would it be a support suit rather than one of the frontline suits. I think an armour repair buff would be a great bonus for one of the Heavy suits, but it doesn't really seem to fit the Logi role quite so well.

Because if you are the only logi catering for a whole squad, whos gonna heal you??

The armour repairers you have the forethought to fit, your repair nanohives, or bring back self-repairing Logis like we had when they first let us play with Repair Tools.

Would the min get a little extra then? It maybe 2 hp/s for other suits and 4 hp/s for mini??

I'm a caldari assault cko, and compared to the logi cko I'm a pile of sh!t

The day I get to assault in an assault suit without being outclassed by a logi, i'll be a VERY happy dust bunny

I have both the cal logi and the assault suit, and l have no idea what you're talking about. As a pure combat suit the assault is superior, my build regens 600 hp in a snudge over 10 seconds, try setting that up with the logi suit....

I smell someone needing to either tweak their build or simply step up their game....

compared to the cal logis I play with... yeah I'm not to good

I have both the cal logi and the assault suit, and l have no idea what you're talking about. As a pure combat suit the assault is superior, my build regens 600 hp in a snudge over 10 seconds, try setting that up with the logi suit....

I smell someone needing to either tweak their build or simply step up their game....