|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3482
   |
Posted - 2013.09.06 11:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
First, as reprisal for Arkenai's earlier thread, I shall start with a text block quoted from Skype:
(My talking points will be below this. Feel free to skip it if you want.)
[7:31:53 AM] A kitten: "There is no point in running scout or assualt because of the lack of low and equipment slots especially when logi suits are running around with an auto aim AR, 900ehp and a wallhack aka Active scanner.."
[7:31:56 AM] A kitten: He's right you know
[7:32:07 AM] A kitten: Logis take much longer to chew through than assaults do
[7:32:09 AM] A kitten: In my experience
[7:32:10 AM] A kitten: (worry)
[7:32:25 AM] A kitten: And they can have both a scanner and ammo, so they have a full view of the battlefield
[7:32:29 AM] A kitten: While you are left in the dust
[7:33:09 AM] Midnight(Mobius): Precisely
[7:33:25 AM] Midnight(Mobius): They don't have the tools to change their bonuses for equipment with this current build
[7:33:42 AM] Midnight(Mobius): So the only way for them to be able to be support classes is to have a bunch of slots
[7:33:59 AM] Midnight(Mobius): Which, as a result, makes them into far better suits than anything else
[7:34:18 AM] Midnight(Mobius): The issue needs to be in the amount of fitting they have, and they bonuses they have to gear
[7:34:42 AM] Midnight(Mobius): I mean, for instance, you don't see anyone trying to fly Logi ships as combat ships in EVE
[7:34:54 AM] Midnight(Mobius): That's because their stats and bonuses are aimed at being support ships
[7:35:01 AM] Midnight(Mobius): We have no such distinction in Dust
[7:35:07 AM] Midnight(Mobius): Logi suits are just better at everything
[7:35:51 AM] A kitten: It's more about the bonuses being massive
[7:36:00 AM] A kitten: In Dust you get at best 25% to a small thing
[7:36:06 AM] A kitten: In EVE you get stuff like +50% weapon damage
[7:36:15 AM] A kitten: +100% range
[7:36:28 AM] A kitten: Small bonuses aren't going to change the balance
[7:37:07 AM] A kitten: How about giving assaults that massive damage boost? Giving heavies a massive resistance boost? Giving scouts a massive scanning boost?
[7:37:19 AM] A kitten: Giving logis a massive boost to their equipment?
[7:37:22 AM] A kitten: Bam, insta balance
[7:37:48 AM] Midnight(Mobius): Hell, I'd say 100% rep range
[7:37:55 AM] A kitten: Holy ****
[7:37:59 AM] A kitten: With that 100hp/s rep
[7:38:02 AM] A kitten: And double the range
[7:38:05 AM] A kitten: I'm going to be so OP
[7:38:06 AM] A kitten: :D
[7:38:10 AM] Midnight(Mobius): Yeah, you'd be a game changer
[7:38:23 AM] Midnight(Mobius): You could rep from moderate safety behind the frontline guys
[7:38:24 AM] A kitten: Well, the logi would be
[7:38:32 AM] A kitten: I'm just graced by his assistance :3
[7:38:34 AM] Midnight(Mobius): Now guess what the enemy has to do?
[7:38:36 AM] Midnight(Mobius): FLANK
[7:38:42 AM] Midnight(Mobius): People actually have to use tactics
[7:38:52 AM] Midnight(Mobius): Not just run at each other until one or the other all dies
[7:38:54 AM] A kitten: Care to make a thread about what we just talked about?
Now that that's out of the way, let's look at this.
Right now, in Dust, bonuses stay pretty small. Personally, I think this is beneficial, since many of us were here for the Replication and E3 builds, where the suits at the higher levels were just so good that you could leave off any and all defensive modules, fill your slots with support modules, and just wipe the field with people who would try and stack Complex Extenders to stay alive.
Naturally, this wasn't very good for game balance. Excessive bonuses to suits based on skill levels could cause the same issue, so some caution is probably best.
HOWEVER:
Right now, the continuing trend of Logi suits being used for everything from their role, to frontline Assault, to speedy fast-hackers is illustrating quite well the fact that their bonuses are both too generic and do too little to define their role. This is what I want to get at.
For instance, as I suggested in my conversation with Cat Merc, why not apply a role bonus to Logistics suits for 2x rep range?
As he pointed out in response, having that kind of range on the 100hp/s repair tool would make approaching a squad supported by that player a rather daunting proposition.
If you look at it another way, though, you could send 1-2 of your squad around to the side or behind that enemy, and gun down their Logi to soften them up for your "slayers".
A lot of people have mentioned over time that this game feels like any other shooter because just like in most of the other ones on the market, fighting consists of just shooting each other directly, and higher-level tactics rarely come into play. If support players are given role bonuses to greatly boost their abilities, suddenly you have to start thinking your way through engagements, and the game becomes more fun and less monotonous.
My point being: while excessive bonuses based on skill training just make for a bigger gap between new and old players, giving fixed "role bonuses" to certain equipment based on the role of the suit allows for that suit to better fill that role, while still leaving those who are newer to the role able to be useful and compete.
If Logi suits were better than any other at repping people, don't you think more people would use them for that? |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3483
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
XxGhostWalkerxX Walker wrote:A few issues with your conversation. Assaults and heavies would nullify there bonus against each other. And they would destroy the other classes. And for double the range of the repper is no point. Its a risk and reward system. You have to earn the wp points. Double the range and becomes free wp which is unbalanced in its self.
How does doubling the range of the repair tool equate to free War Points? The idea here is to allow the suit to excel beyond all others at its intended role, which is the point of the role system in the first place.
Rogatien Merc wrote:If you want me to read that ****, you need bullet points.
I'll respond based on your title: CCP announced several weeks ago that they plan to have equipment based bonuses on the Logis but that there is an issue with the coding so they will be changing it sometime in the 'future'.
So you obviously didn't scroll down and read what was underneath the copypasta.
You also just clarified that you're either incapable of or unwilling to read anything not broken down into little bulleted statements for you.
You do read books, right? |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3493
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
XxGhostWalkerxX Walker wrote:A few issues with your conversation. Assaults and heavies would nullify there bonus against each other. And they would destroy the other classes. And for double the range of the repper is no point. Its a risk and reward system. You have to earn the wp points. Double the range and becomes free wp which is unbalanced in its self.
"That's the point. Heavies are the eHP monsters, assaults are the DPS monsters, other classes, while capable of fighting, have other roles that are not related to direct combat. That's why heavies and assaults are excelling at those, while the other roles excell at their roles. 50% bonus IS too much, but something like 25% would be good"
Quoting for felines. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3500
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:RydogV wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:The problem with logis is that they have to many module slots, to much pg cpu and not enough relevant bonuses!! The bonuses dont have to be strong, but that doesnt mean you cant have more than 2?
Logis need to swap there module slots with the assult class
have the same pg/cpu as the assult currently,
a bonus then needs to be applied to drastically reduce the requirments of equipment,
so that a logi will be able to fit out all of their equipment for the same requirments as an assault running 1 equipment,
then you need a bonus to nanite cluster capacity, as much as 50%,
this should be applied to all nanohives
finally repair tools need either a range or number of targets to repair bonus, this makes the multi tool even more powerful
This would be a great improvement for logis Yeah we have more slots...because we have less base HP than Assault. So in order to equip defense and support modules we need the extra slots. Yeah we have more CPU/PG because we are 'expected' to carry support equipment to help the team. The only way a Logistics suit becomes 'unbalanced' is when the player does not fill the equipment slots and uses the extra CPU/PG to equip better offensive/defensive modules. This can easily be eliminated by making the use of equipment slots in Logistics dropsuits mandatory for the suit to be valid, much like you have to equip a weapon for all suits to be valid. Of course you have those who cry foul that such a requirement infringes on their 'freedom' to do what they want with a suit. These are generally players who don't play Logistics the way it should be played. So as a dedicated 'True Logi', I say take your 'freedom' QQ, roll it up and smoke it. Because no self-respecting Logistics player ever deploys to the Burn Zone with empty equipment slots. You're forgetting a better option that allows for the possibility of a player NOT fitting and playing the role of Logi "as instended", without letting them turn the suit into a super-Assault or super-Scout or speed-tanked Heavy. Don't force players to fill the equipment slots, but majorly reduce PG/CPU on the suits. Then give Logis a massive reduction to fitting costs on ALL equipment as a role/suit bonus. Now, your Logi suits are limited in their ability to fit for a non-Logi role, but you CAN choose to drop your (absurdly cheap) Equipment in order to add a slightly better plate/extender/whatever instead.
I'm kind of miffed that I forgot to mention that in my OP, as that was another one of my ideas.
This would be an excellent way to solve this issue, as you are then quite limited in your ability to try and turn them into super-Assault suits, while they can now easily fit the best support gear possible and be a real asset to their team. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3501
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 17:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:If we're going to change logistic bonuses, they need to be based on equipment from a general sense and not tied specifically to certain modules. That's completely shortsighted when you think of other gadgets we might be getting. Also, if you take away my hacking bonus, I'm officially done with Dust.
Why would that be?
If they changed the bonuses, there's a chance that as part of such a major revision, they'd re-credit SP spent in those specific areas, as we're talking about redefining a role entirely, not just nerfing a single suit.
As well, what if that hacking bonus were to be applied to Scout suits? Or maybe to the as-yet undiscussed Spec Ops specialization that could be seen to be a Medium suit back on Buckingham before they migrated us to other test servers?
Honestly, I think giving a reconnaissance focused suit a way to slip around and quickly flip objectives would be a great way to reward those who specced into that suit. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3505
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Cosgar wrote:If we're going to change logistic bonuses, they need to be based on equipment from a general sense and not tied specifically to certain modules. That's completely shortsighted when you think of other gadgets we might be getting. Also, if you take away my hacking bonus, I'm officially done with Dust. Why would that be? If they changed the bonuses, there's a chance that as part of such a major revision, they'd re-credit SP spent in those specific areas, as we're talking about redefining a role entirely, not just nerfing a single suit. As well, what if that hacking bonus were to be applied to Scout suits? Or maybe to the as-yet undiscussed Spec Ops specialization that could be seen to be a Medium suit back on Buckingham before they migrated us to other test servers? Honestly, I think giving a reconnaissance focused suit a way to slip around and quickly flip objectives would be a great way to reward those who specced into that suit. When I first logged in for Uprising 1.0 I carefully planned out my build. Calculated how much SP everything would cost, what kind of fit I wanted to run and what weapon I wanted to use. One of the hardest choices was what logi suit I wanted to use- Gallente or Minmatar. I spent a good 2 hours, weighing the options on if I wanted a fully equipment oriented armor tanking brick or a mobile scout/logi hybrid suit that could hack things like a boss. I specced into Minmatar logi because of that hacking bonus and made a build specifically for it along with my other equipment fittings. I'm sick and tired of CCP flipping everything around because of a bunch of ill informed morons listening to other ill informed morons to the point that people don't even know what they want anymore and the devs just bend over backwards to appease the current kneejerk reaction. All this drama started over one logistics suit that was extremely OP and I thought this would be resolved after it was nerfed (way too hard) but I was wrong. It's a matter of principles here. How many times is something that players invested their hard earned SP into going to be turned upside down due to a trail of tears by narrow minded, short sighted idiots? You take away my hacking bonus, I better get a SP respec so I can spec into Caldari Assault with an AR since that's apparently the only way you can safely play the game. You guys can have your little IRC circle jerk about re-balancing the game if you want, but if we keep ******* each other over like this, nobody is going to stick around to play.
I actually haven't been in IRC in ages, but I already understand where you were coming from.
We've had several members of the CPM express support for the idea of limited SP reverts in the case of major changes that redefine an asset, and given how they're looking at almost completely redefining vehicles for the next point release, I would imagine that a release that changed that many classes of suit all at once would fit the same bill. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3509
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 18:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Cosgar wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Cosgar wrote:If we're going to change logistic bonuses, they need to be based on equipment from a general sense and not tied specifically to certain modules. That's completely shortsighted when you think of other gadgets we might be getting. Also, if you take away my hacking bonus, I'm officially done with Dust. Why would that be? If they changed the bonuses, there's a chance that as part of such a major revision, they'd re-credit SP spent in those specific areas, as we're talking about redefining a role entirely, not just nerfing a single suit. As well, what if that hacking bonus were to be applied to Scout suits? Or maybe to the as-yet undiscussed Spec Ops specialization that could be seen to be a Medium suit back on Buckingham before they migrated us to other test servers? Honestly, I think giving a reconnaissance focused suit a way to slip around and quickly flip objectives would be a great way to reward those who specced into that suit. When I first logged in for Uprising 1.0 I carefully planned out my build. Calculated how much SP everything would cost, what kind of fit I wanted to run and what weapon I wanted to use. One of the hardest choices was what logi suit I wanted to use- Gallente or Minmatar. I spent a good 2 hours, weighing the options on if I wanted a fully equipment oriented armor tanking brick or a mobile scout/logi hybrid suit that could hack things like a boss. I specced into Minmatar logi because of that hacking bonus and made a build specifically for it along with my other equipment fittings. I'm sick and tired of CCP flipping everything around because of a bunch of ill informed morons listening to other ill informed morons to the point that people don't even know what they want anymore and the devs just bend over backwards to appease the current kneejerk reaction. All this drama started over one logistics suit that was extremely OP and I thought this would be resolved after it was nerfed (way too hard) but I was wrong. It's a matter of principles here. How many times is something that players invested their hard earned SP into going to be turned upside down due to a trail of tears by narrow minded, short sighted idiots? You take away my hacking bonus, I better get a SP respec so I can spec into Caldari Assault with an AR since that's apparently the only way you can safely play the game. You guys can have your little IRC circle jerk about re-balancing the game if you want, but if we keep ******* each other over like this, nobody is going to stick around to play. I actually haven't been in IRC in ages, but I already understand where you were coming from. We've had several members of the CPM express support for the idea of limited SP reverts in the case of major changes that redefine an asset, and given how they're looking at almost completely redefining vehicles for the next point release, I would imagine that a release that changed that many classes of suit all at once would fit the same bill. How many of these rebalances are going to be around short term fixes that CCP seems to have forgotten? Weapons got a 10% damage boost to compensate for the terrible aiming mechanics and vehicles got a PG nerf to "give new players a chance" when they decided matchmaking wasn't a priority. I'm not trusting any changes anymore with this game because nobody every focuses on cleaning up their mess. This is why we have 1.4 and this is why we can't have nice things.
Weapons received a 10% damage boost to make up for losing ten percent damage from the Weaponry skill bonus being changed. If they hadn't done that, that change would have effectively nerfed every single infantry weapon in the game.
The Powergrid bonus was removed because it served as a means to disrupt the balance they were trying to achieve of having roles for vehicles rather than meta levels like the suits. I personally believe the vehicles need the same treatment of recouping some of that PG loss, and I hope that's part of what's on the table for the 1.5 release. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3515
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Xender17 wrote:Changing the classes skill would be a VERY big nerf.
It doesn't have to be.
THAT's the issue.
Giving them new bonuses that make them far better at support than any other suit class would be a BUFF. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3517
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Weapons received a 10% damage boost to make up for losing ten percent damage from the Weaponry skill bonus being changed. If they hadn't done that, that change would have effectively nerfed every single infantry weapon in the game. LinkCCP Cmdr Wang wrote:Posting the following info on upcoming changes to weapon damage and HMG balance on behalf of CCP Rement since he's knee deep in making these changes. He will also be answer questions and discussing this topic in this thread as well.
Tl;dr version:
GÇó In the next hot-fix weapons will all get a 10% damage increase to compensate for the removal of the Weaponry skill bonus.
GÇó HMG damage buffed to 18 HP (including aforementioned 10% increase) and given a 5% dispersion buff.
GÇó In the near future, we will address range issues by removing the hard stop that currently takes place at maximum weapon range.
In Chromosome, the Weaponry skill gave an across the board 2% damage bonus to handheld weapons per level. Given the low SP cost of the skill (and the fact that itGÇÖs a pre-req for every weapon in the game) the majority of players would just skill straight to level 5 making the skill pretty pointless. So, in Uprising we removed the skill bonus. The side effect of this, of course, is that time-to-kill has increased.
This, combined with some of the control issues weGÇÖve been seeing, has led to combat feeling worse than it did in Chromosome. We will address this with a hot-fix that gives an across the board 10% increase to all handheld weapon damage to put DPS back to where it was. Additionally, weGÇÖve increased HMG damage and reduced the dispersion penalty when moving by 5% to address issues with the weapon.... Mobius Wyvern wrote:The Powergrid bonus was removed because it served as a means to disrupt the balance they were trying to achieve of having roles for vehicles rather than meta levels like the suits. I personally believe the vehicles need the same treatment of recouping some of that PG loss, and I hope that's part of what's on the table for the 1.5 release. LinkCCP Blam! wrote:Hi all. I've been reading through and we appreciate your feedback.
You're right about the vehicle engineering skill. For the other posters, I'm assuming you mean the vehicle core upgrades skill?
The reason for lowering the overall bonus was to allow us to create a more varied difference in between our different vehicle roles within the same class. This will become more apparent in the future when we release even more roles with different slot layouts. We also want to make sure that new players have a fighting chance against more skill point rich players who can enjoy the benefit of compounding premium module bonuses in the same fitting. We'll be keeping a close eye on how this nets out in vehicle combat, and ensure that we still afford you the ability to create interesting and unique fits to compliment your combat experience.
Best regards,
- CCP Blam!
Your first post reinforces what I said about them feeling DPS was too low for all weapons after they removed that bonus.
Also, one sentence above the area you helpfully underlined was what Blam! described as the primary reason for the Powergrid change, as you can see that I have bolded and underlined for emphasis.
The idea of balancing combat around the idea of new players was listed after the word "Also", indicating that it was a secondary consideration. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3524
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jammeh McJam wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Vin Mora wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:How to balance logis?
Change passive reps to 10% CPU/PG on equipment per level.
Give us the same PG/CPU as assault suits.
...
Profit!
Specific equipment bonuses are cool, as long as they don't pidgeonhole each suit into a specific role, making them inferior to the other suits for other equipment based tasks. Why not give the Assaults the same slots and CPU/PG as Logis; buff Assaults, don't nerf Logis. I have a hard enough time playing my role correctly without such a nerf. As long as logis get the same base hp as assaults then I could live with that. Do you not quite understand the fact that assaults need more hp so that they can ASSAULT.
Part of the reason for suggesting the range bonus for the Logistics suits would be so that they could repair from further back, even from behind cover, to help make up for having less HP. |
|
|
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3526
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Jammeh McJam wrote:Sure we can, they're the characteristics of an assault class, just like logistics can support the team (in the process getting waaaay more wp than using a logi for assaulting) This is a FPS, everyone is essentially an assault. Some use smaller frames, some use medium frames, some use heavy frames, some have more equipment and module slots, some have less module slots and a sidearm... you get the point? I support my team, and I lay down covering fire when I need to. When New Eden has a geneva convention, I'll put my gun down and be you're personal pack *****.
We're not talking about reducing Logi to sidearms only or trying to nerf them so bad they can't do anything but hide behind other suits.
We're talking about trying to make them truly excel as a support class, and last I checked, the support classes in most other games still get guns, and are still useful with them.
Hell, the Support class in Battlefield is the only one that can use light machine guns. |
|
|
| |
|