IWS I feel for you because you are going to get soooooooo chewed out by tankers.

Gibberish by an infantry player.

If max rack size is stuck at 5 why not set it like this at end levels

Proto Gal tank

4 highs
5 lows
1 large gun
1 medium guns
2 small guns
whole load extra CPU/PG

Proto Cal Tank

5 highs
4 lows
1 large gun
1 medium guns
2 small guns
whole load extra CPU/PG


Yes, this would require medium guns first, but as I understand they are in development

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

Because you run into the serious threat that a LAV or MAV will outperform said tank at everything.

Increase HP of the races prefered souce with Proto then as well. (Cal / Min extra shield , Gal / Amaar extra armour). I think people would go with fitting rails then as a main gun with blaster mediums and fragmented missles as small. Combined fire of 4 weapons would be enough to out match any other vehicle.

CCP Rejavik
CCP Shanghia

Same company different studios, one has near perfected the player feedback process, the other is still rolling on the floor after it fell over its first baby step.

Is that an official chart?
I'd say
Standard 2/5
ADV 2/6
Pro 3/6

would be more logical for the Armor tanks, reguardless I'm scared of what CCP think is a tank upgrade is 70 less HP, 200 less PG, 35% slower. In order to get slight buffs to only one type of turret.....oh yeah and $1,000,000 ISK extra for all that mighty crap.

But then it makes it an omnitank where it can do everything well without many consequences.

so what happens to your whole topic if they dont increase the slot loadout for ADV and prot?

What if prototype for vehicles (such as the enforcer) were just restricted to specializations (hear me out) as they are now.

What about a tank who has a large increase to powergrid to fit multiple large armor or shield modules, with the removal of the misc turrets to re-arrange it's job to taking damage as a mobile infantry cover.

Not saying this is the only idea, but it's a start on getting some ideas out there (not that they will ever be heard).

I'd say because it probably wouldn't be worth to use and probably cost a tonnnnnnn more.

I'd say because it probably wouldn't be worth to use and probably cost a tonnnnnnn more.

PG's and CPU is what makes a tank, a madrugar proto will give 2 sh**s about moar high slots. That is what needs to be taken into consideration.

Cept we now have 4 tanks with the same 5 and 5 slot layout.

How do you expect to squeeze enough variety out of that without cross stepping toes?

Cept we now have 4 tanks with the same 5 and 5 slot layout.

How do you expect to squeeze enough variety out of that without cross stepping toes?

Cept we now have 4 tanks with the same 5 and 5 slot layout.

How do you expect to squeeze enough variety out of that without cross stepping toes?

Increase the max amount of high/low slots for vehicals only so we can have better tanks and have meaning to spend the isk and Sp to get it, easy. Dropsuits dont need more than 5/5, but tanks do to fit the math of the tiers. also, if a proto tank has a significant amount of pg/cpu compared toour standard tanks then they would be able to fit things. Additionally, you can give proto and adv tank some built in natural resist or an additional built in rep in addition to what the player chooses to fit, alot of stuff

Which I will state again will require nerfing everything in order to keep relative power layouts the same. Which in the end will wind up as a nerf to HAVs because its likely the average player is going to dilute that extra slot with something extra.

what do you mean by "nerfing everying in order to keep relative power layouts the same"? not sure what your getting at, can you explain that alittle plz?
I dont see a need to nerf anything, an adv tank should be better in every way than a standard tank and the same for proto tank vs adv. Dont need to nerf the standard tank bcuz the adv is better, just make the tanks better as you go through the tiers. Not nerfing stuff

HAV gaping with prototype model in place would nearly be over 100%+ of a power gap between itself and standard. Infantry is no where near this bad.

HAV gaping with prototype model in place would nearly be over 100%+ of a power gap between itself and standard. Infantry is no where near this bad.

Yeah but the prices are over 100% for an enforcer vs standard and the SP costs for it is as well, cant imagine what the price and SP cost would be for REAL adv tanks and proto tanks.
There is also a limit on how many vehicals can be on the battlefield and no limit to AV. at this point in the game all serious PC forgegunners/swarmers have profficentcy 5 proto and damage modded AV, and many dozens of hundreds of players will by the time proto tanks are given to use, that is the maximum amount of damage possible for AV. They can still leave an extreemly hefty dent in a proto tank with that layout single handedly, what if there were 2 of such ppl? or 3? there is always more than one enemy running proto AV in todays pubs, nevermind months from now

Don't ever balance for isk.

So true.

Also, like the attourney general is saying we dont need slots to balance the vehical. For example we could make the proto tank skill itself be "+10% movement speed, +7 shield passive resist, +20% active rep efficiency per level"
Or have built in aditional active mods that can be used by the poilt in addition to whatever he fills in his slots with, like an additional hardener, heavy rep or speed mod.
Or just straight up add 4000 shields/armor to the tank over standard/adv
or simply add another 30% resist to the tank base.
Dont need to rely on slots, just add stuff that will make a proto tank, a proto tank

no no wasent using the isk to balance it, its just another factor, a minor one. But surely you can come up with a better reply than that, look at everything im talking about the isk is the least of my concerns

I have a crazier idea.

How about we have only 4 tanks.

4 tanks that work really well and know what exactly they're supposed to be doing.

And that's changing the roles thus no longer an advanced or prototype of the same tank anymore but an assault tank or a escort tank or whatever.

How about you shut up because you seem to know nothing about vehicles and continue to push bad ideas through the door

okay then give us "tank that kicks alot of ass name here" class and make it feel like a proto tank. If proto tanks are so hard to make, then give us a tank that specialises in actually being effective, something that actually gets shiet done call it what you want whatever, something can be made that is a "proto tank"

Also, like the attourney general is saying we dont need slots to balance the vehical. For example we could make the proto tank skill itself be "+10% movement speed, +7 shield passive resist, +20% active rep efficiency per level"
Or have built in aditional active mods that can be used by the poilt in addition to whatever he fills in his slots with, like an additional hardener, heavy rep or speed mod.
Or just straight up add 4000 shields/armor to the tank over standard/adv
or simply add another 30% resist to the tank base.
Dont need to rely on slots, just add stuff that will make a proto tank, a proto tank

no no wasent using the isk to balance it, its just another factor, a minor one. But surely you can come up with a better reply than that, look at everything im talking about the isk is the least of my concerns

If you want to destroy my tank get yourself a nice shiny DS with proto missiles and two gunners, I wont be able to touch you because my gun can't shoot high enough. Tank kill infantry, Infantry kill DS, DS kill tank. This of course depends on whether the DS is fitted with Blasters or the tank with Rail guns or a coordinated squad of proto AV.

By that definition then technically we already have a prototype tank.
/me points at the POS known as a Falchion.

Prove to me that 4 tanks that are well thought out balanced and design are worse than 58 poorly thought out tanks, then I will consider your idea has merit. This is afterall a debate, I am still waiting for an good or impressive argument from the other side.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

When prices are based on 'just because' you really cannot balance around that idea. Also what are you going to do when they do remove adv and prototype from npc market making other players the sole source of said items by whatever means avialable?

No, you are trolling, because you are cherry picking and responding only to emotional posts, ignoring any other suggestions.

Frankly, if you wanted legitimate debate you would take the tone you have. You seem convinced that your way is the only way forward, so at this point we all might as well go along for the ride.

Sept 17 bitches. Sept 17.

Prove to me that 4 tanks that are well thought out balanced and design are worse than 58 poorly thought out tanks, then I will consider your idea has merit. This is afterall a debate, I am still waiting for an good or impressive argument from the other side.

Meta In = Power out.
Individual positions of Slots are weighed and have more influence on the fitting than the other way around.
Balance for end game max skill scenarios, but include day 1 rookies in the environment test
Price tag is meaningless
Expected Lifespan is a hidden stat.

Don't listen to IWS he just never knows what he is talking about.

He is a glorified secretory for CPM and when he tries to get out of that role he just babble stupid.

He does not relize tanks probably will not be proto because of slots it will be more of a passive boost from the tanks skills like they seem to be doint already.

Because AV is also at proto level and we have basic vehicles

Funny because you guys haven't come up with anything concrete as to why its a good idea. There isn't too much tangibility in pro prototype argument outside of making an extraordinary broken tank.

Design me an Prototype HAV on the current environment, prove people wrong.

I DARE YOU.

To be fair no one here has really actually provided a well thought out and SPECIFIC counter-argument. All I'm seeing is people arguing why there should be proto tanks but not now to balance those proto tanks properly.

And I believe IWS brings up a good point that just changing stats like +10% acceleration, etc. change the usage of a tank into a different variety instead.

Prove to me that 4 tanks that are well thought out balanced and design are worse than 58 poorly thought out tanks, then I will consider your idea has merit. This is afterall a debate, I am still waiting for an good or impressive argument from the other side.

I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU BUT YOU WON'T LISTEN!!! MYSELF AND OTHERS THROUGH OUT THIS THREAD WTF

Don't ever balance for isk.

everything IS balanced for ISK

explain the difference in price between militia, basic, adv and proto without balancing for isk.... you cant

becuase they are balanced for it

Funny because you guys haven't come up with anything concrete as to why its a good idea. There isn't too much tangibility in pro prototype argument outside of making an extraordinary broken tank.

Design me an Prototype HAV on the current environment, prove people wrong.

I DARE YOU.

:P You know, I was convinced enough to do the math and paperwork.

Give up

He is an infantry player, he prob wants vehicles removed and he knows nothing about them anyways

You get more sense out of a brick wall

I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU BUT YOU WON'T LISTEN!!! MYSELF AND OTHERS THROUGH OUT THIS THREAD WTF

Can someone explain to me why prototype dropsuits are a good idea? Tiericide, bitches!

Doing the math behind a poor concept is throwing good money after bad.

That you did not explore alternate methods of power other than module slots shows how simplistic vehicles are to you.

Given that most tankers are running at least one fitting mod, there is obviously a case for a small PG bump per level to effectively add as a module slot increase without adding anything. Not that I would go this route, but it is a possibility.

The far more reasonable method of adding power without creating an insurmountable power gap are through ancillary boosts, that either compliment the role, or add a new capability not found in lesser models.

For example, a Gunloggi could graduate from 24 - 30 - 33 on shield recharge per second up the tier. While also gaining +5 then +2 on acceleration.

Proto tanks could come with larger ammo reserves, reduced profiles, or more.

There are plenty of ways to balance a set of proto vehicles while still using the same role and model.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

Funny because you guys haven't come up with anything concrete as to why its a good idea. There isn't too much tangibility in pro prototype argument outside of making an extraordinary broken tank.

Design me an Prototype HAV on the current environment, prove people wrong.

I DARE YOU.

2 seconds

All races get tanks that are ment to speed tank. Less health then regular but they have increased mobility and speed allowing them to circle of death other tanks.

You give missile and blaster turrets slower traverse speeds making it harder for them to keep up with these new tanks.

These new tanks gain increased traverse speeds on turrets. so missile and blaster have the turn rate they do not making them able to be effective on this new speedy tank.

Long range battles they will loose at but they will have their speed to get close the distance then be able to use it as defense. They can hit objectives hard and quick but are very suceptable to alpha damage.

Wow there is a new proto tank that changes playstyle on the field and really is not that hard to make.

Iron just becuase your peanut brain can not think of great ideas does not mean they are not out there.

You change the slot lay out to benefit speed tanking

It could be an increase in PG/CPU, Health maybe even speed.

Its doesn't all have to be about slots y'know.

And lolEnforcers.

Caldari Enforcer bonus is useless, because missiles are useless.

And Vayus are meh.

Madrugars/Gunnlogi > Enforcer.

No one wants a glass cannon tank.

Take the current Madrugar as standard.

Advanced version:

Same slot layout
Add 2 CPU, 60 PG.
Top Speed + 2%
Acceleration + 5%
Ammo Capacity +10%


Prototype version:

Advanced hull
Add 1 CPU, 20 PG
Turret Traverse +5%
Profile -10%
Ammo Capacity +5%

None of those bonuses will break the lower tier tanks. A standard Madrugar would not be better off staying home, but a proto would be superiour in every way.

Took me five minutes, while smoking a joint. What is the hold up in Shanghai?

No what you gave me was a different tank not a more advanced version of the previous tank.

Might as well give those different stats to this tank http://www.dust514-france.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/tank2.jpg and well have 2 per race instead.

Another way of looking at tiers for tanks is that because vehicles come pre-tiercide, the current PG/CPU and slot allocations are proto and anything below proto will have a worse PG/CPU and slots. In short, tanks get a huge nerf from the applying tiers.

Iws. Srly, who cares? How about std, adv, and replace proto tanks with a specialized tank that is just as powerful? Okay, it's a problem that all would be proto tanks would have 5/5 and would be too simular so give it the extra built in mods, stat bonuses, resistances, speeds whatever! As long as it works out to make it significantly more effective than standard or advanced tanks. Calling it proto or a" specialized variant but not really proto" doesent matter as long as their solid tanks that get shiet done, like a "proto" tank would.
Also, you continue to ignore my statement about Increasing slot counts above 5. Giving proto tanks 7/5 respectfully would be okay because infantry will still be able to handle them, they have proficientcy 5, double/triple damage modded proto AV, the maximum amount of punishment possible in dust and they travel together in squads. They can handle a tank no problem

No what you gave me was a different tank not a more advanced version of the previous tank.

Might as well give those different stats to this tank http://www.dust514-france.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/tank2.jpg and well have 2 per race instead.

CCP Rejavik
CCP Shanghia

Same company different studios, one has near perfected the player feedback process, the other is still rolling on the floor after it fell over its first baby step.

Vehicles are currently not pre-teiricide, the reason why I can say this is because you can tiericide what we have and based on the snippet from CCP Wolfman's 1.5 vehicle blog, that is what exactly is happening to vehicles, they're getting teiricided first.

what is this term; teiricide, what does it mean? Also, of course tiers of tanks gets worse if their under proto, proto is the best. We curently have no proto tanks all we have is standard, so we would be improving tanks as we introduce new tanks untill we finally hit proto. I fail to see how adding ADV and proto tanks will nerf tanks

Essentialy

It means

Cut out useless crap, most of which would fail the 'why/why not' test.
Replace with useful crap which generally passes the 'must' test.
Avoid having 500 failed clones of the trying to sing the same song and dance the same dance.
If trimming is not possible then new dance routines are required.

Eve Online has over 500 uniquely different ships in terms of use, handling, fitting, roles, culture in fleet and much much more. The last bastions of boring are freighters I believe.

If Dust 514 is racially equaled out and both crusader and pilot drop suits are introduced and without tiericide we would almost have more dropsuits than Eve, but only give or take 6-8 real flavors anyone would care for.

Some argue it dumbs down the game but when you can do it without trimming it doesnt dumb down anything it enhances what you already have into more intriguing and intuitive to play on the field. What if Caldari had 3 different assault suits? all three play differently and have different roles from each other but each three is unique unto itself and not just a progression of each other? Type I Type II Type III suits instead. Type 1 can play like the standard soldier, type 2 more of a medic, type 3 can be the versatile specialist.

IWS, it's simple.

Never give us tiers for tanks, but never give AV tiers either, give all of them different roles and counters, so a fast aerial vehicle, there is AV which can counter that such as an AA swarm launcher (Fires 6 weak missiles that are very fast) and if theres a slow Tank then theres a single shot missile that can do large damage but cannot lock on.

---

King of the Forums // Seraphim <3
Comment and like this thread about PvE, Here!
Also, check out the Indirect Fire ability, Here!

Eve Online has over 500 uniquely different ships in terms of use, handling, fitting, roles, culture in fleet and much much more. The last bastions of boring are freighters I believe.

If Dust 514 is racially equaled out and both crusader and pilot drop suits are introduced. We would almost have more dropsuits than Eve, but only give or take 6-8 real flavors anyone would care for.

I play EVE, it's spreadsheets with a bunch of things you can do.

This is DUST. It's all the same, with minute differences that are hardly noticeable unless you put on your fan goggles and drink the punch. DUST is NOTHING like EVE, maybe it wants to be, but it is not. It is a feeble shadow of a successful relative, burdened with all the expectations and none of the realities.

DUST has a loooooooooooooooooong way to go before anyone can reasonably and realistically compare it to EVE, which will always be difficult because %'s don't translate as well into the FPS genre, since YOU are at the center of attention in such a game. Things have to be unique and meaningful or else people just gloss over it and instead of FoTM we wind up with builds that you have to skill into specifically over X amount of months so that way you can be accepted into PC and other game modes that probably won't be seen for another year.

Good luck with vehicles, it's an uphill battle to say the least.

okay, simple. Thank you for answering my question, im sorry im being an ass on your thread but you gotta work with us, cant ignore us buddy

Just stirring the pot and picking whatever floats up and knowing what sinks. Forums have to be filtered through you know that.

I haven't seen a single tanker go to the white board and tried to realistically design said tanks within current game expectations. I did.

Also max rack size increase is a horrible option as it will lead to a game wide nerf of EVERYTHING. slots are a weighted stat and everything is weighed into that slot value.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

why dont we just have more variants of tanks? ive always said this
Militia
Soma/Sica

Std
Assault tank - bonus to dmg and related mods
Deffence tank - bonus to health and related mods
Logi tank bonus - bonus to shield/armor transporters

Adv
Assault tank
Deffence tank
Logi tank

Pro
Assault tank
Deffence tank
Logi tank

CCP wud fuk up the balancing on that. Just bring back the sagaris and well all be good

PG's and CPU is what makes a tank, a madrugar proto will give 2 sh**s about moar high slots. That is what needs to be taken into consideration.

Go home, IWS, you're drunk.

Std tanks; 2/5 200k
Adv, 3/6 800k
Pro 4/7 1.5mil

Boom. Awesomeness achieved.

4x rolled tungsten plates, 3X resist, top row remote armor reppers lock to your best friend in a similar fit tank. the corrected resistances effective the entire HP pool and not the base + armor skills max tank that can laugh off an entire team's worth of AV just about. Don't fit small turrets keep good comms with your spider buddies.

Fit highest metalevel possible emphasis on self buffer inflation first.

That would be about 70,000+ EHP with effective 1,100 EHP repaired per second Swarms only operate in about a 6k damage over 15 second time compression with travel accounted for which equals about 440 dps effective, You'll need pretty much the entire team to kill one tank in a usual engagement window and that is nowhere near guaranteed.

This of course is worst case scenario fill in the blank based on limited information.

if the tank had that PG base it would be OP as ****, im fine with extra modules and no increase to pg/cpu, ill deal with that myself
-6k dmg at 15 seconds? dem militia swarms

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

Marston VC > ccp's entire vehicle staff

IWS, it's simple.

Never give us tiers for tanks, but never give AV tiers either, give all of them different roles and counters, so a fast aerial vehicle, there is AV which can counter that such as an AA swarm launcher (Fires 6 weak missiles that are very fast) and if theres a slow Tank then theres a single shot missile that can do large damage but cannot lock on.

---

King of the Forums // Seraphim <3
Comment and like this thread about PvE, Here!
Also, check out the Indirect Fire ability, Here!

i don't mean to sound snobby or anything

just saying IWS can i direct you to the last post on page 5 i put a lot of work time and thought in making that post and feel it was completely ignored because it was the last post on a page that nobody noticed

thank you for your time and if you didn't read it because it was to long then i am sincerely sorry for the long post
i don't like it when i put hard work into something and feel like it got ignored so once again
i don't mean to sound snobby just saying

I am not the expert on Dust internal workings, I just know that currently the software as it is presented to the players only supports 5 slots max of any layer. There is the possibility it may impact lag, the whole reason why zipper didn't allow personalization in mag or so they claimed. We all know Dust 514 is CREST API powered which is why it takes 5 seconds to load the player board at times :P.

As for increasing slot counts that is really up to CCP overall and that would involve very high up studio folks to change I believe as it would have to refactor just about everything from scratch again.

OK, I get you now. More slots = more variables for the machines to take account for = more lag. That's fine, but if that's the case, just take a proto tank and give it either more health, or PG/CPU or well...... theres actually a ton of things you could do that would simulate the effect of having extra module slots.

If you remember. Back in the day dropsuits had higher base health on top of modules slots. Obviously that was a balancing issue so they fixed it, but if the only difference between a prototype tank and an advanced tank is sayyyyyy 1000 health, or maybe enough PG/CPU extra to fit another major module (repper, damage mod, ect....) then it really shouldn't be that imbalanced, if not that then not at all.

I mean, im not a tank driver, but I do think that the whole "AV is OP" argument is getting old, and lets think about this for a moment. The current tanks would either be considered standard or Advanced tanks. These STD/ADV tanks are fighting prototype AV. Since when does a GEK beat a Duvolle? Not often, and I don't think its any different between tanks and AV right now either.

Prove to me that 4 tanks that are well thought out balanced and design are worse than 58 poorly thought out tanks, then I will consider your idea has merit. This is afterall a debate, I am still waiting for an good or impressive argument from the other side.

Don't worry picking it apart now in a nice manner just give me a moment or to play it out real quick.

Okay done read it a bit and here is my responses to each section.

As for the increasing base fitting skill this is similar to the idea I had for dropsuit and now wanted to see done to vehicles as well. That training up the skills involving with vehicle command would increase the vehicle in question's fitting. This reduces the need to fit fitting modules over time and eventually start shifting upwards to far more powerful modules. Thing is you don't need to add tires to get the same effect though, distribute the gains over the modules and let the modules speak for themselves.

I am somewhat on the fence about giving away free HP outside the tanking skills because that can lead to buffer tanks being the orderly of the day instead of damage, speed, and other creative means of defenses instead, maybe this would be the thing that frees up the ability to pursue other types of tanks instead but it is not easy to see how a min maxer would break this on the field.

I agree the turrets need to come down a bit. I do not agree about vehicle hulls however, maybe the other modules but the hulls are almost fine as they are if dropships could return their former glory.

Acceleration is a big iffy one, its something I rather see stay on modules and not on the vehicles themselves because lets take LAVs for example. Driving 90 is fine for some people, but when you crank up the speed to 150 mph they hate it. There is certainly no need to punish people who train a skill to lvl 5 which results in something more useless than it was when it was lvl 2.

I do like the idea of far more dynamic damage zones but so far there seems to be only two. for the HAV I would like to see the front to be 'resilient' to damage instead making taking a tank head on a stupid proposition and encourage going around. To further build on this I would like to see modules that screw with this. Like armored radiator reduceses radiator weakness by half ect ect.

Resists that small I am generally okay with but you have to be careful on how often its given out. Once you cross over the 50% resistance eHP EXPLODES upwards.

As for pilot suits... there can be quite a bit done with them and you're right the cooldowns can be a problem if the new guesstimates on active modules are in the same ballfield but hopefully the new cooldown modules are built with the pilot suit in mind already, it could be better served secondary bonus as racial weapon bonus instead. Like less heat with blasters on the gallente, faster ROF with minmatar, faster cooldown on the amarr, less spool up time with the caldari.

and no you're not pushy at all thank you for your time.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

And that's changing the roles thus no longer an advanced or prototype of the same tank anymore but an assault tank or a escort tank or whatever.

CCP Rejavik
CCP Shanghia

Same company different studios, one has near perfected the player feedback process, the other is still rolling on the floor after it fell over its first baby step.

You should give up CPM for making a post like this. You're also not a vehicle operator.

What 5 modules would an armor HAV put in the highs? Can't get enough percentage from PG modules in the lows in a shield tank.

From the discussion I can see you're on-the-fence for all of the suggested stat tweaks.

Why not add built-in utility modules?

Maybe a 100% invulnerability for 3 seconds on a 1 or 2 minute timer (skill to bring it down)? If you see swarm or grenade spam, and you're good at timing the built in invulnerability, it'll actually feel like a tank for a few seconds.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

A properly parked tank can keep the skies clean.

It could be an increase in PG/CPU, Health maybe even speed.

Its doesn't all have to be about slots y'know.

And lolEnforcers.

Caldari Enforcer bonus is useless, because missiles are useless.

And Vayus are meh.

Madrugars/Gunnlogi > Enforcer.

No one wants a glass cannon tank.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

OK I didn't read the hole thread, but after the first two pages I have a question and a suggestion. First for vehicles why does the definition of proto have to be slot layout? Why can't we give each HAV hull a bonus based on skill leave, plus a small slot increase/variety between different hulls. Like the enforcer havs they get a bonus to a specific weapons system, why couldn't some havs get a fitting bonus to say armor plates/shield extenders. Or even a rep/recharge bonus on another hull.

Honestly the options are pretty wide open, plus it gives a reason to skill past lvl 1 of your chosen hav racial skill. Have proto/adv levels of havs have better bonuses to justify there larger price tag plus a one to two slot increase depending on flavor.

Pretty close to tieraside.

PS: sorry posting from my tablet.

Edit: Plus like everybody else is saying its the power grid/CPU that really makes a difference anyways. I have a hard time believing you don't actually see this.

I'd rather CCP get rid of tiers entirely. Focus on making every item balanced and unique in the first place.

Since you posted this thread, IWS, I'm going to guess that you've had a convo with CCP Wolfman recently, and he mentioned that there wouldn't be vehicle tiers, or something along those lines. At least, I hope that's the case, because your point is pretty much moot: CCP could just increase global slot ceiling to 8 or whatever - not to mention that the vehicle bonuses and stats are what make the vehicle more than the slot count.

Maybe I'm just trying to read tea leaves while wearing a blindfold, but you don't usually post with giant holes in your argument... At least, from what I've read of your posts. So I'm just hoping there's more to it than making a poor argument.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

Because when you start changing those sort of stats you get a different vehicles in the end similar to a type 1 and type 2 suit.

Also you don't need a tier system to do the whole PG/CPU thing, that is very doable with 1 tier alone.

What I really don't get is the surmounting amounts of protest against the idea of doing more for less and paying for less, I mean who wants to spend 30 million isk on a prototype tank? when you can go the route that uses a standard hull that gets stronger cpu and pg fittings as you level it up allowing the better fitting of prototype gear without using module assistance as much.

-- snip first and last --
Standard 2/5
ADV 2/6
Pro 3/6

i dont mind as long as we have the means to take them down

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

CCP Rejavik
CCP Shanghia

Same company different studios, one has near perfected the player feedback process, the other is still rolling on the floor after it fell over its first baby step.

almost forgot,,,

STD armor/shields - 2500
ADV armor/shields - 3000
Proto armor/shields - 3500

Well got into another argument about the tank role today. I made a sad point the stationary turrets with the same turret mounts fulfill the same roles immobility and nearly just as long lifespans at times.

To be honest though the role should be more on the hull not on the turret installed, there needs to be a paradigm shift in thinking about what makes the tank away from the gun, and more into the modules that fit into it. Current environment doesn't help out because of the poor fitting skills amounting to nothing useful and be nearly force fit fitting modules for non extreme fits.

Case in point

Standard Buff Extenders/Plates +250 Hp-500 HP
Advanded Buff Extenders/Plates +500-1000 HP
Prototype Buff Extenders/Plates 750-1500 HP

Adjust current hull HP to be reasonable without the plate/extender.
Redistribute and scatter fitting skills to reasonably allow a decent fit with 1 extender or plate (with complementary mods assisting in the tank) without fitting assistance.

Keeps hull prices down.