OK, I get you now. More slots = more variables for the machines to take account for = more lag. That's fine, but if that's the case, just take a proto tank and give it either more health, or PG/CPU or well...... theres actually a ton of things you could do that would simulate the effect of having extra module slots.

If you remember. Back in the day dropsuits had higher base health on top of modules slots. Obviously that was a balancing issue so they fixed it, but if the only difference between a prototype tank and an advanced tank is sayyyyyy 1000 health, or maybe enough PG/CPU extra to fit another major module (repper, damage mod, ect....) then it really shouldn't be that imbalanced, if not that then not at all.

I mean, im not a tank driver, but I do think that the whole "AV is OP" argument is getting old, and lets think about this for a moment. The current tanks would either be considered standard or Advanced tanks. These STD/ADV tanks are fighting prototype AV. Since when does a GEK beat a Duvolle? Not often, and I don't think its any different between tanks and AV right now either.

Prove to me that 4 tanks that are well thought out balanced and design are worse than 58 poorly thought out tanks, then I will consider your idea has merit. This is afterall a debate, I am still waiting for an good or impressive argument from the other side.

Don't worry picking it apart now in a nice manner just give me a moment or to play it out real quick.

Okay done read it a bit and here is my responses to each section.

As for the increasing base fitting skill this is similar to the idea I had for dropsuit and now wanted to see done to vehicles as well. That training up the skills involving with vehicle command would increase the vehicle in question's fitting. This reduces the need to fit fitting modules over time and eventually start shifting upwards to far more powerful modules. Thing is you don't need to add tires to get the same effect though, distribute the gains over the modules and let the modules speak for themselves.

I am somewhat on the fence about giving away free HP outside the tanking skills because that can lead to buffer tanks being the orderly of the day instead of damage, speed, and other creative means of defenses instead, maybe this would be the thing that frees up the ability to pursue other types of tanks instead but it is not easy to see how a min maxer would break this on the field.

I agree the turrets need to come down a bit. I do not agree about vehicle hulls however, maybe the other modules but the hulls are almost fine as they are if dropships could return their former glory.

Acceleration is a big iffy one, its something I rather see stay on modules and not on the vehicles themselves because lets take LAVs for example. Driving 90 is fine for some people, but when you crank up the speed to 150 mph they hate it. There is certainly no need to punish people who train a skill to lvl 5 which results in something more useless than it was when it was lvl 2.

I do like the idea of far more dynamic damage zones but so far there seems to be only two. for the HAV I would like to see the front to be 'resilient' to damage instead making taking a tank head on a stupid proposition and encourage going around. To further build on this I would like to see modules that screw with this. Like armored radiator reduceses radiator weakness by half ect ect.

Resists that small I am generally okay with but you have to be careful on how often its given out. Once you cross over the 50% resistance eHP EXPLODES upwards.

As for pilot suits... there can be quite a bit done with them and you're right the cooldowns can be a problem if the new guesstimates on active modules are in the same ballfield but hopefully the new cooldown modules are built with the pilot suit in mind already, it could be better served secondary bonus as racial weapon bonus instead. Like less heat with blasters on the gallente, faster ROF with minmatar, faster cooldown on the amarr, less spool up time with the caldari.

and no you're not pushy at all thank you for your time.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

And that's changing the roles thus no longer an advanced or prototype of the same tank anymore but an assault tank or a escort tank or whatever.

CCP Rejavik
CCP Shanghia

Same company different studios, one has near perfected the player feedback process, the other is still rolling on the floor after it fell over its first baby step.

You should give up CPM for making a post like this. You're also not a vehicle operator.

What 5 modules would an armor HAV put in the highs? Can't get enough percentage from PG modules in the lows in a shield tank.

From the discussion I can see you're on-the-fence for all of the suggested stat tweaks.

Why not add built-in utility modules?

Maybe a 100% invulnerability for 3 seconds on a 1 or 2 minute timer (skill to bring it down)? If you see swarm or grenade spam, and you're good at timing the built in invulnerability, it'll actually feel like a tank for a few seconds.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

A properly parked tank can keep the skies clean.

It could be an increase in PG/CPU, Health maybe even speed.

Its doesn't all have to be about slots y'know.

And lolEnforcers.

Caldari Enforcer bonus is useless, because missiles are useless.

And Vayus are meh.

Madrugars/Gunnlogi > Enforcer.

No one wants a glass cannon tank.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

OK I didn't read the hole thread, but after the first two pages I have a question and a suggestion. First for vehicles why does the definition of proto have to be slot layout? Why can't we give each HAV hull a bonus based on skill leave, plus a small slot increase/variety between different hulls. Like the enforcer havs they get a bonus to a specific weapons system, why couldn't some havs get a fitting bonus to say armor plates/shield extenders. Or even a rep/recharge bonus on another hull.

Honestly the options are pretty wide open, plus it gives a reason to skill past lvl 1 of your chosen hav racial skill. Have proto/adv levels of havs have better bonuses to justify there larger price tag plus a one to two slot increase depending on flavor.

Pretty close to tieraside.

PS: sorry posting from my tablet.

Edit: Plus like everybody else is saying its the power grid/CPU that really makes a difference anyways. I have a hard time believing you don't actually see this.

I'd rather CCP get rid of tiers entirely. Focus on making every item balanced and unique in the first place.

Since you posted this thread, IWS, I'm going to guess that you've had a convo with CCP Wolfman recently, and he mentioned that there wouldn't be vehicle tiers, or something along those lines. At least, I hope that's the case, because your point is pretty much moot: CCP could just increase global slot ceiling to 8 or whatever - not to mention that the vehicle bonuses and stats are what make the vehicle more than the slot count.

Maybe I'm just trying to read tea leaves while wearing a blindfold, but you don't usually post with giant holes in your argument... At least, from what I've read of your posts. So I'm just hoping there's more to it than making a poor argument.

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.

Because when you start changing those sort of stats you get a different vehicles in the end similar to a type 1 and type 2 suit.

Also you don't need a tier system to do the whole PG/CPU thing, that is very doable with 1 tier alone.

What I really don't get is the surmounting amounts of protest against the idea of doing more for less and paying for less, I mean who wants to spend 30 million isk on a prototype tank? when you can go the route that uses a standard hull that gets stronger cpu and pg fittings as you level it up allowing the better fitting of prototype gear without using module assistance as much.

-- snip first and last --
Standard 2/5
ADV 2/6
Pro 3/6

i dont mind as long as we have the means to take them down

And before you argue otherwise check the chart below.

Madrugar Standard - 3 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Madrugar Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Gunnlogi Standard- 5 High 3 Lows
Gunnlogi Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Gunnlogi Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Hypothetical
Amarr HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows.
Amarr HAV Advanced - 4 High 5 Lows
Amarr HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Minmatar HAV Standard - 4 High 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Advanced - 5 HIgh 4 Lows
Minmatar HAV Prototype - 5 High 5 Lows

Max Rack Size in Dust is 5.

Now you're all smart people; tell me, why this up here is bad overall for the game?

Also explain the chicken of the enforcer/marauders fitting into this as both of those classes already had a +1 slot from regular HAVs.