One Tax to rule them all, One Tax to find them,
One Tax to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

what if i am in a EVE corp?

Corporation tax rates will be identical for both EVE Online and DUST 514, so if you have members from both games in your corporation they will all be taxed the same.

That third screenshot, is that water?

That third screenshot, is that water?

Um... actually thats just a test map. Please don't read into it. We do stupid stuff in test maps. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING COMING OUT! :(

Who cares about taxes, it's all about the chat timestamps!

Thanks for this. I already set a tax of 2.5% in the eve client. Will I have to reset it again or will it work straight away?

And the time stamps.... Awesome!

Ahhh hells yea

E:
Bonus SP Remaining: 369 432
inb4 sp cap conspiracy

Um... actually thats just a test map. Please don't read into it. We do stupid stuff in test maps. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING COMING OUT! :(

So if the tax rates are supposed to be the same for Eve and Dust players - then why do Dust NPC corps only charge 0% tax to Dust players but 11% to EVE players?

Not saying you should definitely bring the Dust NPC rate all the way to 11%, but if you don't make it non-zero you'll have the same issues with incentives to be in no corp as there used to be for Eve. Please can you use the existing knowledge and experience we have from Eve in this situation and re-assess?

That third screenshot, is that water?

So this is only for the PC corps (as the Dev blog says NPC corps will have a 0% tax rate).

my query is: will 'ringers' be taxed if they are brought in to play a PC battle on behalf of another corp?

eg: Clone x is from a NPC corp, but gets drafted in to play for an Eon corp (just used that alliance because they are the current flavor of the month), will i be taxed if i'm on the winning side for a PC battle? if yes, how will i know what rate the PC corp is charging at?

So this is only for the PC corps (as the Dev blog says NPC corps will have a 0% tax rate).

What we mean is that if a corporation has the tax rate set it will be applied the same to DUST players and EVE players in the corporation.

DUST NPC corporations are different corporations than EVE NPC corporations... they are nicer.

What we mean is that if a corporation has the tax rate set it will be applied the same to DUST players and EVE players in the corporation.

DUST NPC corporations are different corporations than EVE NPC corporations... they are nicer.

REQUEST swimming and underwater swimming and harpoon weapons

You got it all wrong.

It's for normal corporations. If you're a member of an NPC corp you don't get taxed. This has nothing (well, almost) to do with contract payouts ;)

Um... actually thats just a test map. Please don't read into it. We do stupid stuff in test maps. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING COMING OUT! :(

my bad. i took NPC to mean Non Planetary Conquest, not Non Personal Computer, which i think is what you meant

Non Player Character, sorry. :)

As in the corporations that don't have a player CEO versus the player run corporations.

Is there a way to identify the revenue each individual brings into the corp?

It would be a handy way to instantly identify who's actually playing or who went dead in the corp. Maybe some corps might want to reward their most active players. Just a thought.

Regarding not charging NPC corporations we did this for 2 reasons:

- It would be a massive nerf across the board to income, the ISK just goes missing because it goes to NPCs
- It is just not a good incentive to form social groups, we would rather people form corporations to play together, not just to avoid taxation.

Then why did they decide to implement such a change for EVE NPC corps?

At least a nominal tax rate would be appropriate, I feel. Even 1% would demonstrate that corp taxes are normal.

Um... actually thats .... a .... map. Please ..... read into it. We do ...... stuff in .... maps. THIS IS ... SOMETHING COMING OUT! :)

I must say one thing about this, though, based on the screenshot: I really wish that it was the actual payout that was featured in the middle of the big income circle, rather than the "pre-tax" payout. It's very misleading, and I can't help but imagine that even an aspiring financier like me will slip up every once in a while and record the wrong thing on my data spreadsheet.

Is there a way to identify the revenue each individual brings into the corp?

It would be a handy way to instantly identify who's actually playing or who went dead in the corp. Maybe some corps might want to reward their most active players. Just a thought.

Regarding not charging NPC corporations we did this for 2 reasons:

- It would be a massive nerf across the board to income, the ISK just goes missing because it goes to NPCs
- It is just not a good incentive to form social groups, we would rather people form corporations to play together, not just to avoid taxation.

NPC corps should have tax of 11%, like EVE. They did it to encourage memberships in corporations (and to remove people from the war-free safety). This should totally carry over.

Regarding not charging NPC corporations we did this for 2 reasons:

- It would be a massive nerf across the board to income, the ISK just goes missing because it goes to NPCs
- It is just not a good incentive to form social groups, we would rather people form corporations to play together, not just to avoid taxation.

You make a very valid point, especially since that is how the SP one works. I believe we are considering this a defect and filing a report on it now. :)

It's going to be a low priority thing though, so no ETA on a fix.

NPC corps should have tax of 11%, like EVE. They did it to encourage memberships in corporations (and to remove people from the war-free safety). This should totally carry over.

SO you released a dev blog after the patch is content locked

Once again the dust 514 devs make it obviously clear what they think of "player feedback"

guys nothing we say in this thread can change anything it's already done they can not change a thing.

I still love the change and I'm glad it's making it in but it doesn't nothing to restore my faith they care about feedback.

The problem is you have now created an economic incentive for people to not play together to avoid taxation.

The problem is you have now created an economic incentive for people to not play together to avoid taxation.

Don't be silly

Good question, will player's taxes show up on the wallet archive page?

The CPM actually made it position know on the pitfalls of not including a base tax on NPC corps, but CCP in then end can choose to not listen to feedback.

The problem is you have now created an economic incentive for people to not play together to avoid taxation.

What's going to happen if this NPC tax shelter goes through is people will squad up, corporation-independent, and run "safely" from their NPC tax shelters but still enjoy the benefits of increased WPs due to squadding up, etc. People aren't going to join a corp "to feel nice" when they can just join the corp (or other group) chat channel and squad up without tax burdens from being in the player corp.

The CPM actually made it position know on the pitfalls of not including a base tax on NPC corps, but CCP in then end can choose to not listen to feedback.

Corp tax isn't enough of reason NOT to join a corp. There are clear disadvantages with staying in an NPC corp like playing an FPS with random nobodies all day that don't even have mics.

I seem to be missing something on this NPC tax debate.

Ah, but on the other hand people will become exclusive, not allowing people from other corporations to join their squad because they won't be generating tax revenue for the corp.

This brings a smile to my face.

The more transparency between Dust and Eve, the better (same as with between the Devs and the Community).

EDIT: As far as tax on NPC corps is concerned, I am still of the opinion that the tax on NPC corps should be draconian high (50% plus).

The reasoning for this is that we are little more than meat with guns, property of our corporations so why should we expect to get paid at all?

This should be the incentive for joining/making corps. 0% corp tax on NPC corps will lead to what others have already noted, people using chat channels to group up with their friends while all are in NPC corps to protect their ISK margins.

It's worth pointing out that with an NPC corp tax of 0%, CCP have removed entirely the ability for any CEO to fish for newbies with the 'worm' of a lower tax rate and get them 'hooked' on the social interactions of playing with friends.

If Dust is going to succeed it needs more people being hooked.

I think this powerful argument alone should be enough to warrant an NPC tax rate.

Um... actually thats just a test map. Please don't read into it. We do stupid stuff in test maps. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING COMING OUT! :(

I like how the community is told that its feedback isn't valuable to the dev team because CCP is doing rocket science here, and then the community goes on to find to find two issues with a devblog within a few minutes of the devblog being posted.

Addendum: Let me be clear that I don't think showing the gross instead of net profit in the payout window and the economic effects of the zero tax rate is a sign of bad work at all. These are just things you can better judge when you're the person being affected.

For those who think that NPC corp tax at 0% is stupid in dust because it's at 11% in EVE NPC corps and it incentivises staying in an NPC corp, think about the new player experience a bit. They already have enough to contend with, taking a chunk out of their earnings for no easily fixable reason isn't particularly conducive to a newbie friendly environment.

Mind you, it IS worth noting that joining corps should be encouraged, not discouraged like this.

For those who think that NPC corp tax at 0% is stupid in dust because it's at 11% in EVE NPC corps and it incentivises staying in an NPC corp, think about the new player experience a bit. They already have enough to contend with, taking a chunk out of their earnings for no easily fixable reason isn't particularly conducive to a newbie friendly environment.

Mind you, it IS worth noting that joining corps should be encouraged, not discouraged like this.

No disadvantage whatsoever to being in an NPC corp at all.

The problem is you have now created an economic incentive for people to not play together to avoid taxation.

Regarding not charging NPC corporations we did this for 2 reasons:

- It would be a massive nerf across the board to income, the ISK just goes missing because it goes to NPCs
- It is just not a good incentive to form social groups, we would rather people form corporations to play together, not just to avoid taxation.

You make a very valid point, especially since that is how the SP one works. I believe we are considering this a defect and filing a report on it now. :)

It's going to be a low priority thing though, so no ETA on a fix.

Then ppl will make one man corps like they do in eve to avoid taxation.

It's not that you have to give half of your earned isk to your corp, like some ppl make it out to be.

The assumption is that you will make less isk as a result of not being in a corp. I've not been in an NPC corp lately, but generally when I squad (with my corp) I make more isk than not having squaded (especially as a logi).

If there is an incentive, its more that players not commit to a corporation rather than not play together. Nuanced yes. But that means that it will be the corporation's responsibility to create content that people will value above the % they give to corp.

SO you released a dev blog after the patch is content locked

Once again the dust 514 devs make it obviously clear what they think of "player feedback"

guys nothing we say in this thread can change anything it's already done they can not change a thing.

I still love the change and I'm glad it's making it in but it doesn't nothing to restore my faith they care about feedback.

You will NOT have to reset it, the tax rate will already be set and ready to go! :D

The problem is you have now created an economic incentive for people to not play together to avoid taxation.

We don't want to incentivise players leaving NPC corps, we want to incentivise them playing and socializing with other players by joining player corps. It is a subtle but very important distinction to make and a good example of where just copying EVE should not be the default decision.

Um... actually thats just a test map. Please don't read into it. We do stupid stuff in test maps. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING COMING OUT! :(

Tell Fox I love him more than Cmdr Wang. <3


But CCP Earworm will always have a special place in my heart.

I didn't argue for npc corps to have taxes on the simple fact regular player corporations don't have enough benefits rolling for them to force players to avoid taxation via corp exiting. Once corps have far better tools such as armories, roles, and the like then I can see pushing for a npc tax increase as corps can reliably provide better services than the npc counter parts and knowing that isk is going towards something useful.

As for now the most useful things your corp taxes pay for is for vehicle pilot compensation, prototype ace compensation, and Planetary Conquest purchases such as clones and ringers. Also I guess corporation advertising agencies purchases for posters, adverts, and movies.

Once all those other tools becomes available more things should be more possible for the corp such as stocking up guns and vehicles for corporation use, buying assets and the sorts. As it stands now the only advantage a player corp can really have is the social aspect.

So that should be a thing to pursue to make being in a player corp an 'advantage' over the npc corp. After all after this change, you can easily hotfix npc corp taxes in once the criteria is met.

So we had a massive thread about corp tax a while ago (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67713). We reviewed all the feedback in that and discussed it with the CPM. For such a small feature it was quite heavily consulted on.

The real catch with having an NPC tax rate in DUST is you can easily work around it by starting a 1 man corporation to earn more ISK. We don't want to incentivise players leaving NPC corps, we want to incentivise them playing and socializing with other players by joining player corps. It is a subtle but very important distinction to make and a good example of where just copying EVE should not be the default decision.

What we will continue to work on is the concept of group earning so your tax money gets put to good use and hopefully earns you a greater return than if you just played solo in an NPC corp. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts type deal. We also have plans to help corporations recruit more effectively and share their wealth with their members, but more on this later.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

Confirmed: it is water

So we had a massive thread about corp tax a while ago (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67713). We reviewed all the feedback in that and discussed it with the CPM. For such a small feature it was quite heavily consulted on.

The real catch with having an NPC tax rate in DUST is you can easily work around it by starting a 1 man corporation to earn more ISK. We don't want to incentivise players leaving NPC corps, we want to incentivise them playing and socializing with other players by joining player corps. It is a subtle but very important distinction to make and a good example of where just copying EVE should not be the default decision.

What we will continue to work on is the concept of group earning so your tax money gets put to good use and hopefully earns you a greater return than if you just played solo in an NPC corp. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts type deal. We also have plans to help corporations recruit more effectively and share their wealth with their members, but more on this later.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

Taxes are lame! DUST514's Corporation Tax is not! Learn about an upcoming new feature to be released in Uprising 1.4 in this new dev blog from CCP Foxfour! You will be able to tax your corp members! Woo! TAXES! Fun!

So we had a massive thread about corp tax a while ago (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67713). We reviewed all the feedback in that and discussed it with the CPM. For such a small feature it was quite heavily consulted on.

The real catch with having an NPC tax rate in DUST is you can easily work around it by starting a 1 man corporation to earn more ISK. We don't want to incentivise players leaving NPC corps, we want to incentivise them playing and socializing with other players by joining player corps. It is a subtle but very important distinction to make and a good example of where just copying EVE should not be the default decision.

What we will continue to work on is the concept of group earning so your tax money gets put to good use and hopefully earns you a greater return than if you just played solo in an NPC corp. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts type deal. We also have plans to help corporations recruit more effectively and share their wealth with their members, but more on this later.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

So we had a massive thread about corp tax a while ago (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67713). We reviewed all the feedback in that and discussed it with the CPM. For such a small feature it was quite heavily consulted on.

The real catch with having an NPC tax rate in DUST is you can easily work around it by starting a 1 man corporation to earn more ISK. We don't want to incentivise players leaving NPC corps, we want to incentivise them playing and socializing with other players by joining player corps. It is a subtle but very important distinction to make and a good example of where just copying EVE should not be the default decision.

What we will continue to work on is the concept of group earning so your tax money gets put to good use and hopefully earns you a greater return than if you just played solo in an NPC corp. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts type deal. We also have plans to help corporations recruit more effectively and share their wealth with their members, but more on this later.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

You make a very valid point, especially since that is how the SP one works. I believe we are considering this a defect and filing a report on it now. :)

It's going to be a low priority thing though, so no ETA on a fix.

But as an aside, I am pleased at the development of corporation tax. It's also clear that you have put a fair amount of thought, and taken into account real feedback, when considering which decision to make fro NPC taxes. And you're making strong arguments for your position. We can only praise that you will observe real metrics, though it's hard to swallow that any new players may fall between the gaps and that there's no real comparison to be made (there will be no players in taxed NPC corps) and so it'll come down to a judgement call on whether you are happy with the metrics as they stand rather than comparing 2 approaches with evidence.

I think CCP is taking a reasonable approach to this, in many aspects. Remember that corps can't really do much for the average player right now, since CREST is not available, corp depots and roles aren't available, so it's possible that they're taking the view that they'll push players harder to join corps once there's more support available to those player-run corps.

Taxes are lame! DUST514's Corporation Tax is not! Learn about an upcoming new feature to be released in Uprising 1.4 in this new dev blog from CCP Foxfour! You will be able to tax your corp members! Woo! TAXES! Fun!

Actually I will add one more thought to this discussion, our design decisions are heavily metrics based these days. We are tracking the progression of players joining player corporations and will be watching how this data is affected after this change.

If it turns out to be the wrong call and we see a big drop then we will of course review why and make additional changes.

your decisions should be player feedback based....we know better... how many times will you stick your hand in the fire before you accept it burns....

corp taxes are good... but with just a tax introduced and no incentives to join a corp...like hangars or training grounds, it will be misconstrued as a punishment for joining a corp... however if you put a high tax on NPC corps you have incentivized joining a player corp...

im sorry but your metrics are broken and lack logic.

Game design isn't a democratic process and merely adhering to players' clamour for any particular action isn't sensible.

*If* you are correct in your assertions you should look to make convincing arguments and not just tell CCP what to do and ask them to count how many other people agree.

I'm sorry, but your faculties for logic and rhetoric are lacking.

You will NOT have to reset it, the tax rate will already be set and ready to go! :D

I did make a convincing argument... also their metrics don't work better than feedback... proven.... apology accepted

Edit: sometimes a convincing argument doesn't require a wall of text... I challenge you to counter the argument I put forth instead of criticizing my valid attempt to save CCP some heartache and trouble

It's 2 decimal places in EVE, we kept it the same for consistency seeing as they are the same tax figure.

What you are me for is nonsensical. In addition your first sentence is a complete non-sequitur, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised?

I was not criticising the position you advocate; since I am actually advocating it also. So it makes no sense for you to ask me to counter your argument.

I was criticising your approach of appeal-to-the-people - where you stated that because it was player feedback then it was obviously better quality than anything else (i.e. 'metrics'). This is a fallacious argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Instead, I am advising you to use convincing logic (and not fallacious argument) to back up your position.

I don't even see the need for discussion or feedback if the "metrics" are all CCP is concerned about. Probably the same metrics that told them 400 WP was a good idea for the Academy...

ok...you must be new... we have been ignored long enough that the niceties you request have been tried till our heads bleed from the wall we bang them into.... even the CPM acknowledges ccp's lack of any real back and forth communication do want links?

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101452&find=unread

some valid threads that were ignored yet right regardless of the delivery?


https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70696&find=unread


https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70755&find=unread

my point is it has never mattered how we convey the truth...CCP is blind to it... why because they simply don't trust us.

CCP Greyscale was fairly clear on what metrics they used to determine the 400 WP total: namely, that they wanted players to be in the Academy for 3-5 matches, and the average newbro makes ~50-100 WP per match.

I think the 400 WP didn't make any sense, though, because the metrics don't likely account for players hanging out and messing around shooting their teammates deep in the redline, not leaving the MCC, etc. Changing it to 1500 and then to 2000 today are steps in the right direction. Changing it to Skirmish, well, we'll have to see. After I was very critical of the choice to make it Domination, in actuality, I think it gives some very needed direction for newbros in that there's a single objective (capture the only checkpoint) and the fact that there's a single objective means that there's going to be many targets around that checkpoint to shoot, giving newbros lots of opportunities to learn the shooting mechanics of this fledgling FPS.

With the corporate tax shelters, though, CCP is hurting competitive advantages player corps could offer, and its already been well explained that solo players wishing to do so will stay in NPC corps with 0% OR create their own corp with 0% tax either way. It's not combatting this solo behavior so much as hurting social player corps.

Been here since May 2012, start of public beta - no naivete here. It's just 1) I have to be persuasive for a living 2) I work within an agile scrum development process (I'm a Product Manager) and 3) I've also actually met (at Fanfest) a lot of the devs that we are speaking to.

I much prefer to talk to people on the forums as I would feel comfortable doing so to their face. The inherent human respect gives much more weight to one's reputation and influence.

Certainly CCP as an institution have ending up not paying enough attention to high quality feedback and analysis in the past but becoming arrogant and dismissive isn't going to fix that.

Coming soon to Dust 514, Jet Skis!

how am I being sily? people are giving feedback and all CCP can say is "Sorry we will fix that but no eta"

In eve when a dev blog is released it's to gain feedback to change a feature before it's content locked.

Eve is also played on a computer, and not on PSN, CCP has to deal with Sony, and its not your game or mine, it's CCP's and if they want your thoughts on something they wanted to make, so what? People need to stop treating this like they're owed something from the devs, stop complaining about things that haven't even been released yet, be more positive with feedback, and stop complaining with every other breath that comes out of your word hole. ( not directed at you crazy space1 ) this is a FREE game that you can enjoy for nothing, don't like the game? Don't play it. Don't like how CCP does things? Don't go work for them, but as an everyday player since the beginning of open beta, the games getting better every update, and it sucks when you have to browse through ten pages of butt-sore cry babies whining about every little thing that doesn't go they're way. Grow up people.

WHY WHY WHY WHY ????

is it just because "well a single rate would be simpler."
or is it because adding a second tax rate variable would be a technical challenge?

Eve players have been asking for greater control over corporation tax mechanics for years and years, particularly the ability to tax different activities at different rates. Here we've got two completely different activities, generating two different currencies, where the tax proceeds go into two completely different wallets and cannot even be exchanged... What possible justification is there to make the tax rates a single rate?

There was a point in time when I had my dust merc in an EVE corp, so I could keep track of my friends while my EVE computer was in disrepair and waiting for parts.
I was the only duster in the corp, and there was... I think a 4.5% tax?

If I were in the same situation AFTER the changes... it would be essentially 4.5% of the isk goes down the toilet. Since dust isk can only be used by dust mercs, and it goes in the hidden eighth wallet division, where the eve CEO can't use it.

This is a terrible idea, and will discourage mercs and capsuleers from joining the same corporation. We want more integration, not less.

This gives you, the lone merc in that EVE corp, a reason to talk to your EVE CEO about growing the DUST side of the corp. This gives your EVE CEO a reason to interact with you and pay attention to your needs. It gives you a reason to find more bros to join that corp so the corp as a whole will get more awesome because you mercs went out together and killed all the things. Reputation can mean a lot in EVE, so that gives your EVE CEO a reason to think about engaging in DUST-related activities and that DUST mercs are worthwhile. It gives you a reason to earn trust and prove yourself a team player to that EVE CEO. If you're not an asshat, maybe, just maybe, you'll be made a Director, which will give you access to that eighth wallet so you can do things with it.

Sounds like more integration to me.

The problem is you have now created an economic incentive for people to not play together to avoid taxation.

The tax would be deducted from your battle winnings bro

what if your not playing

Taxes are lame! DUST514's Corporation Tax is not! Learn about an upcoming new feature to be released in Uprising 1.4 in this new dev blog from CCP Foxfour! You will be able to tax your corp members! Woo! TAXES! Fun!

So.. as im finding out their really is no other corp so far that charges their ppl 20% tax