|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
448
   |
Posted - 2013.08.21 18:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
So if the tax rates are supposed to be the same for Eve and Dust players - then why do Dust NPC corps only charge 0% tax to Dust players but 11% to EVE players?
Not saying you should definitely bring the Dust NPC rate all the way to 11%, but if you don't make it non-zero you'll have the same issues with incentives to be in no corp as there used to be for Eve. Please can you use the existing knowledge and experience we have from Eve in this situation and re-assess? |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
448
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 18:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:So if the tax rates are supposed to be the same for Eve and Dust players - then why do Dust NPC corps only charge 0% tax to Dust players but 11% to EVE players?
Not saying you should definitely bring the Dust NPC rate all the way to 11%, but if you don't make it non-zero you'll have the same issues with incentives to be in no corp as there used to be for Eve. Please can you use the existing knowledge and experience we have from Eve in this situation and re-assess? What we mean is that if a corporation has the tax rate set it will be applied the same to DUST players and EVE players in the corporation. DUST NPC corporations are different corporations than EVE NPC corporations... they are nicer.
Boo! Please put at least a nominal amount of tax in so that people are use to receiving a tax!
What is the reason that you decided on a 0% NPC tax rate and the implications that brings to enticing new players into player corps? |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
449
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 18:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Regarding not charging NPC corporations we did this for 2 reasons:
- It would be a massive nerf across the board to income, the ISK just goes missing because it goes to NPCs
- It is just not a good incentive to form social groups, we would rather people form corporations to play together, not just to avoid taxation.
Then why did they decide to implement such a change for EVE NPC corps?
At least a nominal tax rate would be appropriate, I feel. Even 1% would demonstrate that corp taxes are normal. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
449
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 18:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
BursegSardaukar wrote:NPC corps should have tax of 11%, like EVE. They did it to encourage memberships in corporations (and to remove people from the war-free safety). This should totally carry over.
Actually that's a good point about the EVE NPC tax being in place a 'cost' for the benefit of being safe from war decs. Since this doesn't apply in Dust, I no longer have an issue with the 0% NPC tax rate that is planned.
Carry on CCP. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
451
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 19:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's worth pointing out that with an NPC corp tax of 0%, CCP have removed entirely the ability for any CEO to fish for newbies with the 'worm' of a lower tax rate and get them 'hooked' on the social interactions of playing with friends.
If Dust is going to succeed it needs more people being hooked.
I think this powerful argument alone should be enough to warrant an NPC tax rate. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
463
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 09:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:So we had a massive thread about corp tax a while ago ( https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67713). We reviewed all the feedback in that and discussed it with the CPM. For such a small feature it was quite heavily consulted on. The real catch with having an NPC tax rate in DUST is you can easily work around it by starting a 1 man corporation to earn more ISK. We don't want to incentivise players leaving NPC corps, we want to incentivise them playing and socializing with other players by joining player corps. It is a subtle but very important distinction to make and a good example of where just copying EVE should not be the default decision. What we will continue to work on is the concept of group earning so your tax money gets put to good use and hopefully earns you a greater return than if you just played solo in an NPC corp. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts type deal. We also have plans to help corporations recruit more effectively and share their wealth with their members, but more on this later. Thanks for all the comments so far.
I'd like to point out that any player who decides to spend 1.6 mil isk to create their own personal corporation is a player who is determined to play the game solo - but at least they are determined to play the game! For others for whom the hook of social interaction will keep them playing the game, an incentive to exit an NPC corp is still a good thing.
It's also worth noting that with a mere nominal value of 1% tax they would have to earn 160 million isk to get a return on the 'investment' of creating their own corp. Hardly an incentive at all [to create your own personal corp to escape taxes] in fact.
Basically, those who exit an NPC for 'for the wrong reason' are still determined to play the game, whereas those who exit 'for the right reason' will find themselves more engaged with Dust.
But as an aside, I am pleased at the development of corporation tax. It's also clear that you have put a fair amount of thought, and taken into account real feedback, when considering which decision to make fro NPC taxes. And you're making strong arguments for your position. We can only praise that you will observe real metrics, though it's hard to swallow that any new players may fall between the gaps and that there's no real comparison to be made (there will be no players in taxed NPC corps) and so it'll come down to a judgement call on whether you are happy with the metrics as they stand rather than comparing 2 approaches with evidence. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
467
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 11:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:
But as an aside, I am pleased at the development of corporation tax. It's also clear that you have put a fair amount of thought, and taken into account real feedback, when considering which decision to make fro NPC taxes. And you're making strong arguments for your position. We can only praise that you will observe real metrics, though it's hard to swallow that any new players may fall between the gaps and that there's no real comparison to be made (there will be no players in taxed NPC corps) and so it'll come down to a judgement call on whether you are happy with the metrics as they stand rather than comparing 2 approaches with evidence.
I think CCP is taking a reasonable approach to this, in many aspects. Remember that corps can't really do much for the average player right now, since CREST is not available, corp depots and roles aren't available, so it's possible that they're taking the view that they'll push players harder to join corps once there's more support available to those player-run corps.
I agree. I think there is a reasonably wide channel of 'correct' or 'acceptable' here and the discussion and advocation comes down to essentially subjective positions. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
467
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 12:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Actually I will add one more thought to this discussion, our design decisions are heavily metrics based these days. We are tracking the progression of players joining player corporations and will be watching how this data is affected after this change.
If it turns out to be the wrong call and we see a big drop then we will of course review why and make additional changes. your decisions should be player feedback based....we know better... how many times will you stick your hand in the fire before you accept it burns.... corp taxes are good... but with just a tax introduced and no incentives to join a corp...like hangars or training grounds, it will be misconstrued as a punishment for joining a corp... however if you put a high tax on NPC corps you have incentivized joining a player corp... im sorry but your metrics are broken and lack logic. 
Game design isn't a democratic process and merely adhering to players' clamour for any particular action isn't sensible.
*If* you are correct in your assertions you should look to make convincing arguments and not just tell CCP what to do and ask them to count how many other people agree.
I'm sorry, but your faculties for logic and rhetoric are lacking. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
470
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 13:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Actually I will add one more thought to this discussion, our design decisions are heavily metrics based these days. We are tracking the progression of players joining player corporations and will be watching how this data is affected after this change.
If it turns out to be the wrong call and we see a big drop then we will of course review why and make additional changes. your decisions should be player feedback based....we know better... how many times will you stick your hand in the fire before you accept it burns.... corp taxes are good... but with just a tax introduced and no incentives to join a corp...like hangars or training grounds, it will be misconstrued as a punishment for joining a corp... however if you put a high tax on NPC corps you have incentivized joining a player corp... im sorry but your metrics are broken and lack logic. Game design isn't a democratic process and merely adhering to players' clamour for any particular action isn't sensible. *If* you are correct in your assertions you should look to make convincing arguments and not just tell CCP what to do and ask them to count how many other people agree. I'm sorry, but your faculties for logic and rhetoric are lacking. I did make a convincing argument... also their metrics don't work better than feedback... proven.... apology accepted Edit: sometimes a convincing argument doesn't require a wall of text... I challenge you to counter the argument I put forth instead of criticizing my valid attempt to save CCP some heartache and trouble
What you are me for is nonsensical. In addition your first sentence is a complete non-sequitur, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised?
I was not criticising the position you advocate; since I am actually advocating it also. So it makes no sense for you to ask me to counter your argument.
I was criticising your approach of appeal-to-the-people - where you stated that because it was player feedback then it was obviously better quality than anything else (i.e. 'metrics'). This is a fallacious argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Instead, I am advising you to use convincing logic (and not fallacious argument) to back up your position. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
472
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 14:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Been here since May 2012, start of public beta - no naivete here. It's just 1) I have to be persuasive for a living 2) I work within an agile scrum development process (I'm a Product Manager) and 3) I've also actually met (at Fanfest) a lot of the devs that we are speaking to.
I much prefer to talk to people on the forums as I would feel comfortable doing so to their face. The inherent human respect gives much more weight to one's reputation and influence.
Certainly CCP as an institution have ending up not paying enough attention to high quality feedback and analysis in the past but becoming arrogant and dismissive isn't going to fix that. |
|
|
|
|
| |
|