We'll be taking a look at the plasma cannon along with all AV weapons as part of the vehicle work we are doing in 1.5.

Nearly fine

My main problem is more damage than a vehicle mounted large railgun turret

I'm down with losing splash radius, **** I'm ok with losing all of it.

I also wish it were harder to score a direct hit, not much harder, but something, cuz I rarely miss :/

I hate you guys. I see thread after thread of saying, "Let's talk over how to balance vehicles," but what they really are is, "How can we balance AV against HAVs?" Yeah, let's make forge guns balanced to a vehicle that is able to utilize cover and has 2-3x the health of a dropship. Let's just forget about those poor bastards in the sky, because they don't matter.

How about leave the blast radius but make the effect of the radius only effect shielding aka flux type effect, thus only a direct hit can kill infantry but it can still do damage to shielding.

Is it 100% perfect accurate. i kind of agree, because it really doesent require much skill to use. Would you say a slight travel speed reduction would do the weapon well? The accuracy almost seems required imo because of its ammo count. Or we could give more ammo for a noticeable accuracy decrease? whatchya think?

I'm only OK with nerfing the forge gun once more heavy weapons are released.......right now its a choice between close range or long range.....there is no medium range heavy weapon........and even if it does get nerfed people will just use mass drivers or grenades to camp objectives.....they might even use plasma cannons......you won't stop people from camping objectives just by nerfing one weapon.....in fact IMHO the only useful heavy weapon

I'm perfectly fine with how the forgegun works. I'm not fine with how HAVs and Dropships work.

Personally, I've never been mad at getting killed by a forgegun.

Is it 100% perfect accurate. i kind of agree, because it really doesent require much skill to use. Would you say a slight travel speed reduction would do the weapon well? The accuracy almost seems required imo

I think people need to specify what forge gun they're talking about. It'd be a shame if one change specific to the assault variant gets pushed on all of them.

I am in for a reduced accuracy
I would keep the Splash and radius.

I would most probably give AV weapon a different damage output to vehicle than to infantry. So a forge doing 2000dmg to a vehicle, would do 10%-20% of that to infantry, 200-400. AV nades do zero damage to infantry, it would be logical AV guns don't do full dmg against them.

Against dropship and tanks I would prefer they release proto vehicles and modules, then we can talk balance of that forge gun against them...

AV 'nades do full damage to infantry... if they trigger.

For a time they did on direct contact.

for the life of me i cant understand why any changes would need to be made to this weapon. IMHO, if a player can snipe you with this gun, then they are a superior player and deserve the kill. Just remember this:
1) there is no ADS with this weapon, so sniping MUST be done from hip-fire (which is definitely not easy with the size of the crosshairs)
2) you have to be a Heavy to wield the weapon, hence forcing the user to deal with permanent, unavoidable shortcomings of the suit (slow speed, large hit box, no equipment, etc)
3) the weapon take at least 5 seconds to charge up. not so much a problem when you are fighting at a distance, but in CQC that is 5 seconds you cant afford to waste, thus forcing the player to try and get a direct hit with the first shot or suffer the consequences (usually a volley of AR fire which depending on the weapon, can kill you before you get off the second shot)

i'm sure there are other compelling reasons, but i just chose the 3 that came to me off the top. if i want to kill a Forge gunner, i don't run up to his face and say 'Hi', i attack him from the side/back and make sure he doesn't get the time to shoot me first.i know a lot of guys that use the forums are good players, hence i dont understand why a simple tactic cant be applied to overcome any advantage that this play style has over your fitting builds.

I agree with the OP, Advance/Proto forge should be able to easily take out a standard Hav/dropship, but I don't agree that the weapon is strictly AV, it is 'anti material' as stated in the weapon description (the same description that stated it can be used against infantry) the fact that is is being used so effectively by a small percentage of the already small percentage of players that play Heavy should not lead to a 're balancing' of the weapon. it should lead other players to be cautious if you see one, and have a game plan for how to take it out.

The assault is the hardest to use, so why wouldn't it?

well get in here and make some points!! you are a vehical user as well, talk about how it is for dropships. Sadly i never flew i cant confidently speak for you guys :/ i would if i could

I'm down with losing splash radius, **** I'm ok with losing all of it.

I also wish it were harder to score a direct hit, not much harder, but something, cuz I rarely miss :/

Splash damage should only be reduced on the assault variant. It has a low charge up time, so it's pretty OP compared to the other FGs IMO.

Judging by the kill feed you could've fooled me.

However, there is an aspect were the Forge Gun is absurd and too multi purposed. The splash on the forge is okay, it has a balanced strength and blast radius but this splash is abused for holding down objective hacking panels, especially PC. When there is a FG above an objective you simply can not capture the objective, as the splash on the assualt FG kills all hackers. This makes this AV weapon an anti everything weapon, if you are able to kill infaintry it should be a direct hit because it is an anti vehical weapon, it does not need splash to kill vehicals and the idea that it ever did is laughable. This weapon is currently to versatile for an AV weapon, an extreemly effective AV weapon at that. The splash should be removed to define its battlefeild role, it is almost the ultimate tactical weapon when placed above ground, like the flaylock was as a sidearm

Well reasoned commentary. I say, remove the splash entirely- it's just a big railgun, basically a huge sniper rifle, with no real reason to have splash damage. This would make it much harder to use vs infantry, while not gimping the gun for AV use. Additionally, I would be in favor of making all FGs have the assault's drawback- no stored charge, but instead requiring sufficiently excellent aim to time the charged shot. While we're at it, add a high-magnification ADS, because not having it makes working at the high end of the FG's optimal range (300M) impossible. Now you've got a proper long-range heavy AV weapon, devastating against tanks, but very hard to use against infantry. No stored shot will make life easier for dropships (as unpredictable flying will become much more valuable) and generally make the current FG's absurd accuracy/range less easy to abuse.

As we should all know by now, AV and vehicals are going to be changed in 1.5 and most likely 1.6 and will be changed completly. as evident in this post:



So, im going to go through the whole list of AV weapons in different threads and try to collect a non biased collection of feedback the Devs can use to change vehicals and AV. So remember, what we post here is what they may listen to. Ive started a discussion on Plasma Cannons in this thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1145262#post1145262
Also, this link is the AV nade discussion: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=99452
and finally, the swarm launcher discussion https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101971 Feel free to throw in your thoughtful and reasonable ideas in ethire.

What are your ideas for Forge Gun rebalance?
Remember to ALWAYS give reasons on your ideas, we dont want to give the DEVs crap to read. Put up a convincing argument!!

Personally, i think the Forgegun is mostly balanced considering we only have standard HAVs vs proto AV. With my experience with the end Chromosome Sagaris (ADV level tank) the Forge has not changed by much and is fairly balanced, the damage output is almost fair, tho it does most likely do a tad too much damage, only by maby 300 points, very minor. However, we do not have anything past standard tanks, tho the weapon in scale is not OP, it is currently OP to standard tanks, standard tanks do not stand up well to proto forge guns, they eat them up within a single clip. This is exactly what should happen, it shouldent take much more than a single clip for a proto forge to kill a standard tank. Sadly we are most deffenetly not getting the additional tanks needed to fix the balance issiue, the proto forge will annihilate our standard level tanks for many months to come untill additional, more powerful vehicals are released. Unless the tanks are getting a monsterious buff, we should temporarily remove the proto forge unitll tanks are strong enough to require proto forge monsters.

However, there is an aspect were the Forge Gun is absurd and too multi purposed. The splash on the forge is okay, it has a balanced strength and blast radius but this splash is abused for holding down objective hacking panels, especially PC. When there is a FG above an objective you simply can not capture the objective, as the splash on the assualt FG kills all hackers. This makes this AV weapon an anti everything weapon, if you are able to kill infaintry it should be a direct hit because it is an anti vehical weapon, it does not need splash to kill vehicals and the idea that it ever did is laughable. This weapon is currently to versatile for an AV weapon, an extreemly effective AV weapon at that. The splash should be removed to define its battlefeild role, it is almost the ultimate tactical weapon when placed above ground, like the flaylock was as a sidearm

No offense but stop placing the forge gun under the anti vehicle section
It is not a anti vehicle, it's anti material so yea you were right when you said anti everything. It kills installations, vehicles and infantry. And I hope you know the forge gun hardly kills with splash damage. Most of its kills are by direct damage. Only once in the while you kill infantry with splash and that's only if they are low on health. So again it's not an anti vehicle. The gun is fairly balanced, and if it takes you out in one clip it means that the tank stood still long enough for him to unload a whole clip which is pretty sad cause it takes a while to unload a clip lol. Try being at the end of a forge gun. We usually get help by other forgers. And swarms.

Keep making that argument on how Forge Guns are balanced, there... "Flaylock" Steve...

actually he's right. it's a rare situation when there's only one AV weapon pointing a tank or dropship.

Nine times out of ten there's also other dingbats spamming the enemy with militia swarms and forges, giving enough defensive suppression for assault forges and breach to seem like they're cutting through your vehicle like it's made out of tissue paper. Tank on field means everyone and their brother is hunting for the 200-300 WP that it's worth.

Dropships, I think should be able to take three DIRECT assault forge hits at the proto level.

However, Dropship pilots please bear a couple things in mind:

1: Hovering does not help you. Ever.

2: Flying low, and slow in a straight line means it is trivially easy for me to slap you out of the sky. Practice the maneuvering, and shifting directions fast because once the AV has a bead you need to escape.

3: Afterburners are for escaping the range of forges. I encounter vehicles I have to jump in a jeep to chase because they are, in fact, out of my absolute range. Once you get 1/3rd of the map away you are out of range. add some elevation or cover and you are untouchable.

actually he's right. it's a rare situation when there's only one AV weapon pointing a tank or dropship.

Nine times out of ten there's also other dingbats spamming the enemy with militia swarms and forges, giving enough defensive suppression for assault forges and breach to seem like they're cutting through your vehicle like it's made out of tissue paper. Tank on field means everyone and their brother is hunting for the 200-300 WP that it's worth.

Dropships, I think should be able to take three DIRECT assault forge hits at the proto level.

However, Dropship pilots please bear a couple things in mind:

1: Hovering does not help you. Ever.

2: Flying low, and slow in a straight line means it is trivially easy for me to slap you out of the sky. Practice the maneuvering, and shifting directions fast because once the AV has a bead you need to escape.

3: Afterburners are for escaping the range of forges. I encounter vehicles I have to jump in a jeep to chase because they are, in fact, out of my absolute range. Once you get 1/3rd of the map away you are out of range. add some elevation or cover and you are untouchable.

actually he's right. it's a rare situation when there's only one AV weapon pointing a tank or dropship.

Nine times out of ten there's also other dingbats spamming the enemy with militia swarms and forges, giving enough defensive suppression for assault forges and breach to seem like they're cutting through your vehicle like it's made out of tissue paper. Tank on field means everyone and their brother is hunting for the 200-300 WP that it's worth.

Dropships, I think should be able to take three DIRECT assault forge hits at the proto level.

However, Dropship pilots please bear a couple things in mind:

1: Hovering does not help you. Ever.

2: Flying low, and slow in a straight line means it is trivially easy for me to slap you out of the sky. Practice the maneuvering, and shifting directions fast because once the AV has a bead you need to escape.

3: Afterburners are for escaping the range of forges. I encounter vehicles I have to jump in a jeep to chase because they are, in fact, out of my absolute range. Once you get 1/3rd of the map away you are out of range. add some elevation or cover and you are untouchable.

Very true, with any luck rails get a better buff. This will be brought up in my railgun thread later :)

I am in for a reduced accuracy
I would keep the Splash and radius.

I would most probably give AV weapon a different damage output to vehicle than to infantry. So a forge doing 2000dmg to a vehicle, would do 10%-20% of that to infantry, 200-400. AV nades do zero damage to infantry, it would be logical AV guns don't do full dmg against them.

Against dropship and tanks I would prefer they release proto vehicles and modules, then we can talk balance of that forge gun against them...

I would like the forge gun to remain exactly as it is. Good, high sp tankers are very difficult to kill. Nerf llav's, buff drop ships.

I think travel speed is fine, it can already be tough tracking quick vehicles with the Assault at least. I've always felt the FG needs damage decay outside of its optimal to help dropships out a bit. If they get close, they're vulnerable to full damage, but put some distance between you and you can tank another shot or two.

Maybe adding the tiniest bit of shake to the crosshairs while charging / holding a charge could help make it difficult to use vs infantry, but it would have to be minor to avoid making it too difficult to use vs moving vehicles.

I dont think the FG should be able to hold a charge like a couple of them do, they should all have to time and lead there shots a little like the rail turrets

I know people are probably gonna flame me for saying this but I think AV needs to have damage degradation over travel time.

Something like: (just for example)

100% of damage until optimal
smooth dropoff from optimal until effective at around 40% of damage at max effective.
smooth dropoff from effective to around 5% at the edge of max range.

Railgun turrets should do the exact same damage as std forge guns but have ~40% more range.

In this way, yes you can camp on a high tower and forge snipe all day, but you pay for it in less damage.

This creates a dynamic where if AV can get in closer they can deal massive damage to tanks. Also, dropships can fly out of effective range as well, but if they get close and they arent careful they get pwned hard.

What this does is make it so tanks can get in close with their infantry team mates and AV will need to get into the fray as well to effectively take down a tank. It also gives tankers a chance to retreat if things get dicey.

In terms of variants, I think we need to normalize it a little. (these are just examples, tear me apart if you like, just tossing out an example/idea... its not like these are final numbers)

Breach should have lower range and slightly higher damage.

+40% damage vs std variant
4s charge time
4 round clip - max ammo 16
Splash radius 0.5m
Optimal Range: 80m
Effective Range: 140m
Maximum Range: 280m


Std should remain fairly similar to how it is but slightly faster and more rounds due to range nerf
3s base charge
6 round clip, max ammo 24
Splash radius 1.5m
Optimal Range: 120m
Effective Range: 180m
Maximum Range: 320m

Assault should be a lower DD high splash anti personelle variant. I know we all hate it but it makes sense, esp given that heavies only have two weapons.

It should do something like (at proto)
800 Direct Damage
350 Splash Damage
2s base charge
3.5m blast radius.
8 round clip, max ammo 32
Optimal Range: 100m
Effective Range: 160m
Maximum Range: 300m

Now the range nerf would give a place for a 'Tactical' variant.

Tactical Forge Gun:
Similar damage to std
4s base charge
4 round clip, max ammo 16
Splash radius 0.5m
Optimal Range: 180m
Effective Range: 240m
Maximum Range: 360m

I don't know, just my thoughts from being on both ends. the forge gun is mostly okay, its just that you can sit there and snipe tanks from places even your fellow infantry can't get to. I think there should be a penalty for forge sniping, and the ability to snipe a dropship from 100s of meters away makes them practically worthless.

Decreasing the effective range on AV while making their up close damage very high would create a risk vs reward scenario. Yes you can whittle a tank from a place he can never touch you but you shouldn't be able to sit up there like a god and be untouchable.

On the other hand, if you can get up close and the tanker doesn't see you or can't kill you in time, you should be able to deal a massive amount of damage to a tank.

Most people will probably hate this idea im sure, this is just what i've thought of after being on both ends of AV.

for the life of me i cant understand why any changes would need to be made to this weapon. IMHO, if a player can snipe you with this gun, then they are a superior player and deserve the kill. Just remember this:
1) there is no ADS with this weapon, so sniping MUST be done from hip-fire (which is definitely not easy with the size of the crosshairs)
2) you have to be a Heavy to wield the weapon, hence forcing the user to deal with permanent, unavoidable shortcomings of the suit (slow speed, large hit box, no equipment, etc)
3) the weapon take at least 5 seconds to charge up. not so much a problem when you are fighting at a distance, but in CQC that is 5 seconds you cant afford to waste, thus forcing the player to try and get a direct hit with the first shot or suffer the consequences (usually a volley of AR fire which depending on the weapon, can kill you before you get off the second shot)

i'm sure there are other compelling reasons, but i just chose the 3 that came to me off the top. if i want to kill a Forge gunner, i don't run up to his face and say 'Hi', i attack him from the side/back and make sure he doesn't get the time to shoot me first.i know a lot of guys that use the forums are good players, hence i dont understand why a simple tactic cant be applied to overcome any advantage that this play style has over your fitting builds.

I agree with the OP, Advance/Proto forge should be able to easily take out a standard Hav/dropship, but I don't agree that the weapon is strictly AV, it is 'anti material' as stated in the weapon description (the same description that stated it can be used against infantry) the fact that is is being used so effectively by a small percentage of the already small percentage of players that play Heavy should not lead to a 're balancing' of the weapon. it should lead other players to be cautious if you see one, and have a game plan for how to take it out.

Splash damage should only be reduced on the assault variant. It has a low charge up time, so it's pretty OP compared to the other FGs IMO.

I'm for damage reduction and longer charge times, but what I really want is some crazy recoil. Like looking up 20 degrees and being pushed back +5m. I mean, come one, this weapon is the equilivent of a rail tank turret and can be handled like a leafblower.

why should it have splash at all? do you need splash to kill a vehical? its an AV weapon

FG's are not solely AV or A-HAV they are ment to be a powerful anti infantry as well and if a user is skilled enough to hold down abjective then kudos to him and dont cry ... improvise / adapt/ overcome and the FG's dificulty to aim is the only balance needed and if you were going to decrease the power i ask that we gain a small zoom capability with it ...cus curently there is no zoom period and that would copensate for the damage increase

Sorry for my brash reply and late response.. I'm at work and haven't really had time to type anything up.

Dropships currently have the health of an LAV (although not an LLAV) and the mobility, however they lack the cover. If dropships are intended to be a medium vehicle, they need the shields or armor of a medium vehicle. As stands, they are the LAVs of the sky. As mentioned a second ago, the sky provides no cover, leaving dropships hanging out free to be shot at by forge guns and railguns (I fly a Python, so swarm launchers aren't really a problem for me).

What would be most useful is larger maps, allowing dropships to avoid a hot portion (a railgun can cover over half the map), but that takes a lot more than simple rebalancing. For a simple numbers tweak, allowing dropships to take an extra shot would be a great start. Well geared dropships are two shotted when hit by well geared opponents. I'd love to see that increase to 3, as this would increase the time I have to get away, as that's about my only defense.

So, I'd like either a resistance boost with skills that is effective or I'd like health to increase from 1075 to 1700, which would then call for the Eryx to be boosted up as well to compensate.

Lastly, I'd like to note that I find myself having ZERO powergrid issues with the Python. PG does not need a buff, it does not need a nerf. Leave it be.

Well reasoned commentary. I say, remove the splash entirely- it's just a big railgun, basically a huge sniper rifle, with no real reason to have splash damage. This would make it much harder to use vs infantry, while not gimping the gun for AV use. Additionally, I would be in favor of making all FGs have the assault's drawback- no stored charge, but instead requiring sufficiently excellent aim to time the charged shot. While we're at it, add a high-magnification ADS, because not having it makes working at the high end of the FG's optimal range (300M) impossible. Now you've got a proper long-range heavy AV weapon, devastating against tanks, but very hard to use against infantry. No stored shot will make life easier for dropships (as unpredictable flying will become much more valuable) and generally make the current FG's absurd accuracy/range less easy to abuse.

because it really doesent require much skill to use.

There's that sentence again.

it... does i geuss. But not really, i used it before. It does require a tad of skill but not much. Its just an easy and effecitve weapon, it is a very simple weapon

Most of the weapons are simple. Hell, really all of the weapons are pretty simple.

You point, you shoot. This one shoots fast, this one shoots slow. Oh, real skill weapon! Watch that over heat bar. SO MUCH SKILL.

That one just uses the "point and click" mechanic of a first person shooter in a different way. I don't disagree that its a little too good at all things (and I absolutely hate 1 hit kill anything ever, but that's just me), but its not a matter of "if you use it, you have no skill." If its that easy to use, then you use it.

Slower projectile, that much power from a infantry weapon should not be near instant hits.

As opposed to even faster hits by the Large Rails vehicle counterparts.


Personally I'm fine with nerfing all long range weapons. Let's slash the optimal on FGs, Large Rails, Sniper Rifles, and pre-nerf those godless Rail Rifles while we're at it. If vehicle rails are taking a hit then blasters will need a range nerf to balance them out.

Isn't nerfing fun?

Forge gun should be a close range weapon with a big powerful blast that can take a tank down in one shot at point blank. The trade off will be that you still have to charge it up so you are vulnerable. Make it so that it only targets vehicles. We have anti infantry weapons already.

For what the forge gun can do it is too versatile as is and is becoming a FOTM. Make it a one trick pony and make it damn good for that one trick.

Excellent post maple, I would agree with you 100%. I could easily live without the splash damage, as most of my kills are direct hits. Iv recently started tanking myself and can now see the huge disadvantage of going up against proto AV in my advanced tank.

I could also live without the proto AV cause its too easy to blow up stuff anymore, where's the challenge gone? In the older build's it used to take some effort to take out a tank or dropship. It required a team effort and was more fun.

This topic just needs to die. There is nothing wrong with the forge gun. It hardly changed since Codex and now all of you are complaining about it. Before someone brings up forge sniping calm down it's no big deal. Someone found a good way to kill/ protect a point with a gun that was used for mainly AV, how is that op? It has its drawbacks (can't do solo, no ads, heavy suit) It has its counters ( snipers, dropship full of heavies, railgun, counter forge gunner, orbitals). I think for something to be OP it needs to have little to no counters and forge guns DO have counters. For a well coordinated team I don't see how a forge gunner is a problem, if you or your team can't kill him then you deserve to be killed by it.

Forge guns v.s tanks can seem a bit unbalanced IF someone does something wrong. If your tank sucks yeah it's going to die to a proto forge, if the tank gets stuck he will die, If there is multiple AV player targeting you odds are you will die. On the forge gun side of things you are this big ass heavy with a big ass gun, you can be seen and hit from a mile away. You have to be accurate, conserve your little amount of ammo, watch out for infantry support, watch out for that tank you are tying to kill and allot of other things I don't feel like listing. The forge gun is not the one in need of a nerf, the tanks/dropships need a buff. I do have an alt who is speced into nothing but vehicles and I can say that they are too weak and not worth the isk. Tanks need to come back to where they where, not the POS glass cannons we have now. If you nerf the forge gun now later on down the line when tanks are good again forges will be under powerd.

As we should all know by now, AV and vehicals are going to be changed in 1.5 and most likely 1.6 and will be changed completly. as evident in this post:



So, im going to go through the whole list of AV weapons in different threads and try to collect a non biased collection of feedback the Devs can use to change vehicals and AV. So remember, what we post here is what they may listen to. Ive started a discussion on Plasma Cannons in this thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1145262#post1145262
Also, this link is the AV nade discussion: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=99452
and finally, the swarm launcher discussion https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101971 Feel free to throw in your thoughtful and reasonable ideas in ethire.

What are your ideas for Forge Gun rebalance?
Remember to ALWAYS give reasons on your ideas, we dont want to give the DEVs crap to read. Put up a convincing argument!!

Personally, i think the Forgegun is mostly balanced considering we only have standard HAVs vs proto AV. With my experience with the end Chromosome Sagaris (ADV level tank) the Forge has not changed by much and is fairly balanced, the damage output is almost fair, tho it does most likely do a tad too much damage, only by maby 300 points, very minor. However, we do not have anything past standard tanks, tho the weapon in scale is not OP, it is currently OP to standard tanks, standard tanks do not stand up well to proto forge guns, they eat them up within a single clip. This is exactly what should happen, it shouldent take much more than a single clip for a proto forge to kill a standard tank. Sadly we are most deffenetly not getting the additional tanks needed to fix the balance issiue, the proto forge will annihilate our standard level tanks for many months to come untill additional, more powerful vehicals are released. Unless the tanks are getting a monsterious buff, we should temporarily remove the proto forge unitll tanks are strong enough to require proto forge monsters.

However, there is an aspect were the Forge Gun is absurd and too multi purposed. The splash on the forge is okay, it has a balanced strength and blast radius but this splash is abused for holding down objective hacking panels, especially PC. When there is a FG above an objective you simply can not capture the objective, as the splash on the assualt FG kills all hackers. This makes this AV weapon an anti everything weapon, if you are able to kill infaintry it should be a direct hit because it is an anti vehical weapon, it does not need splash to kill vehicals and the idea that it ever did is laughable. This weapon is currently to versatile for an AV weapon, an extreemly effective AV weapon at that. The splash should be removed to define its battlefeild role, it is almost the ultimate tactical weapon when placed above ground, like the flaylock was as a sidearm

As a dropship pilot and tanker, I will agree to leave forge guns alone, if I get my advanced/proto vehicles, and get my powergrid skill to give +% pg again. Until then, it's too OP.

I say leave the damage and splash how it is. Make it have a 10 sec charge up time. That much power coming out of so small a weapon should take a long time to generate.

10 seconds and leave the splash on it? i liked your post up till that

I want it to be effective as anti-materiel, which it should be good at. But not at such a fast firing rate.

What would you have done?

This topic just needs to die. There is nothing wrong with the forge gun. It hardly changed since Codex and now all of you are complaining about it. Before someone brings up forge sniping calm down it's no big deal. Someone found a good way to kill/ protect a point with a gun that was used for mainly AV, how is that op? It has its drawbacks (can't do solo, no ads, heavy suit) It has its counters ( snipers, dropship full of heavies, railgun, counter forge gunner, orbitals). I think for something to be OP it needs to have little to no counters and forge guns DO have counters. For a well coordinated team I don't see how a forge gunner is a problem, if you or your team can't kill him then you deserve to be killed by it.

Did you even read the OP or anything said so far? were not calling for a massive nerf or anything that would change the AV potential of the weapon, and if we do hint at it we dont want a crazy nerf, were trying to balance it and give it a definite roll. Yes, we agree the forges are mostly balanced and it is the poor excuse for the current tanks that are the promblem. Yep, we got that.

However, your making it sound like its hard to cope with the disadvantages of the forge, all you have to do is get up high on the map and YES, IT MAKES AN IMPACT!! One forge gunner can hold down an objecitve by himself, with no support other than someones uplinks. The only way to get him is to use a dropship, which duh wont wonk bcuz he has a forge gun or to snipe him wich is not always possible in citys and impossible when they have multiple armor reping hives. If you get rid of the splash it would fix the promblem, its hardly a nerf to an AV weapon

I don't see how removing the splash would do anything. Compared to the plasma cannon the forges splash is **** but do you see anyone using the plasma, no. The splash is not the problem. Removing the splash will do nothing but hurt any forge gunners chance of living a fight against anything. Even if you do remove splash people would still ***** about it if you manage to get a direct hit. If you say remove the splash on the forge because it can blow up a tank then take the splash off ANYTHING that can kill a vehicle just to make it even. So that's Mass drivers, railguns, missiles, orbitals, flaylocks, and locus grenades.

The Forge Gun is fine just the way it is! Don't believe me just ask CCP.

Better yet go try it for yourself!

If you really think using the FG in any way, shape, or form is easy go do it! I'm gonna tell you right now you are in for a big surprise!

Kill the assault variant. Just delete it from the game. The other FGs are fine, breach is the most balanced imo.

-XOXO

Kill the assault variant. Just delete it from the game. The other FGs are fine, breach is the most balanced imo.

-XOXO

whats wrong with the assualt?

no

I hate you guys. I see thread after thread of saying, "Let's talk over how to balance vehicles," but what they really are is, "How can we balance AV against HAVs?" Yeah, let's make forge guns balanced to a vehicle that is able to utilize cover and has 2-3x the health of a dropship. Let's just forget about those poor bastards in the sky, because they don't matter.

Personally, i think the Forgegun is mostly balanced considering we only have standard HAVs vs proto AV.

I know people are probably gonna flame me for saying this but I think AV needs to have damage degradation over travel time.

Something like: (just for example)

100% of damage until optimal
smooth dropoff from optimal until effective at around 40% of damage at max effective.
smooth dropoff from effective to around 5% at the edge of max range.

Railgun turrets should do the exact same damage as std forge guns but have ~40% more range.

In this way, yes you can camp on a high tower and forge snipe all day, but you pay for it in less damage.

This creates a dynamic where if AV can get in closer they can deal massive damage to tanks. Also, dropships can fly out of effective range as well, but if they get close and they arent careful they get pwned hard.

What this does is make it so tanks can get in close with their infantry team mates and AV will need to get into the fray as well to effectively take down a tank. It also gives tankers a chance to retreat if things get dicey.

In terms of variants, I think we need to normalize it a little. (these are just examples, tear me apart if you like, just tossing out an example/idea... its not like these are final numbers)

Breach should have lower range and slightly higher damage.

+40% damage vs std variant
4s charge time
4 round clip - max ammo 16
Splash radius 0.5m
Optimal Range: 80m
Effective Range: 140m
Maximum Range: 280m


Std should remain fairly similar to how it is but slightly faster and more rounds due to range nerf
3s base charge
6 round clip, max ammo 24
Splash radius 1.5m
Optimal Range: 120m
Effective Range: 180m
Maximum Range: 320m

Assault should be a lower DD high splash anti personelle variant. I know we all hate it but it makes sense, esp given that heavies only have two weapons.

It should do something like (at proto)
800 Direct Damage
350 Splash Damage
2s base charge
3.5m blast radius.
8 round clip, max ammo 32
Optimal Range: 100m
Effective Range: 160m
Maximum Range: 300m

Now the range nerf would give a place for a 'Tactical' variant.

Tactical Forge Gun:
Similar damage to std
4s base charge
4 round clip, max ammo 16
Splash radius 0.5m
Optimal Range: 180m
Effective Range: 240m
Maximum Range: 360m

I don't know, just my thoughts from being on both ends. the forge gun is mostly okay, its just that you can sit there and snipe tanks from places even your fellow infantry can't get to. I think there should be a penalty for forge sniping, and the ability to snipe a dropship from 100s of meters away makes them practically worthless.

Decreasing the effective range on AV while making their up close damage very high would create a risk vs reward scenario. Yes you can whittle a tank from a place he can never touch you but you shouldn't be able to sit up there like a god and be untouchable.

On the other hand, if you can get up close and the tanker doesn't see you or can't kill you in time, you should be able to deal a massive amount of damage to a tank.

Most people will probably hate this idea im sure, this is just what i've thought of after being on both ends of AV.

How about leave the blast radius but make the effect of the radius only effect shielding aka flux type effect, thus only a direct hit can kill infantry but it can still do damage to shielding.

why? its an AV weapon, it doesent need to penitalise infaintry, it shouldent be good at everything like the flaylock was. Give a reason why it should!

If a rail gun on a tank is pretty much the same as a large forge gun
will the proposed BM mod to the FG then be applied to the Rail turret/?
Only splash with shield damage?
Because isn't the rail tank supposed to be AV?

What do we want forge guns to be like?

Very low charge time makes it have higher DPS than breach, and vanilla FG obsolete. You must have seen it getting ridiculous kills. With high splash radius you can spam shots every 2 seconds for easy kills. No holding charge isn't really a concern or a way to balance the gun as most people say. Being a heavy either. Actually being a heavy is awesome because snipers can't kill you, and ypu can OHKO them so easily. And lol running for cover tanks.

-XOXO

can they just increase the cost of forge guns like they did to vehicle turrets? make them cost between 300k and 500k isk.

and get rid of holding charges

Well I was in a match yesterday, I was using my '9k what ever' forge gun [the advanced one]. I put 4 rounds into one of the armor dropships in the sky, his health went down to 0, I could see it flaming and falling through the sky, yet somehow he managed to reapir and pull back and get away.

What type of bollocks is this?

He even managed to come up to me later that game, I put another forge round into him, but he was too close and he just landed on top of me and squashed me. You want to talk about balance? How about when anything reaches 0 hit points it blows up. Stuff that can resurrect itself from death is bull crap.

As we should all know by now, AV and vehicals are going to be changed in 1.5 and most likely 1.6 and will be changed completly. as evident in this post:



So, im going to go through the whole list of AV weapons in different threads and try to collect a non biased collection of feedback the Devs can use to change vehicals and AV. So remember, what we post here is what they may listen to. Ive started a discussion on Plasma Cannons in this thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1145262#post1145262
Also, this link is the AV nade discussion: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=99452
and finally, the swarm launcher discussion https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101971 Feel free to throw in your thoughtful and reasonable ideas in ethire.

What are your ideas for Forge Gun rebalance?
Remember to ALWAYS give reasons on your ideas, we dont want to give the DEVs crap to read. Put up a convincing argument!!

Personally, i think the Forgegun is mostly balanced considering we only have standard HAVs vs proto AV. With my experience with the end Chromosome Sagaris (ADV level tank) the Forge has not changed by much and is fairly balanced, the damage output is almost fair, tho it does most likely do a tad too much damage, only by maby 300 points, very minor. However, we do not have anything past standard tanks, tho the weapon in scale is not OP, it is currently OP to standard tanks, standard tanks do not stand up well to proto forge guns, they eat them up within a single clip. This is exactly what should happen, it shouldent take much more than a single clip for a proto forge to kill a standard tank. Sadly we are most deffenetly not getting the additional tanks needed to fix the balance issiue, the proto forge will annihilate our standard level tanks for many months to come untill additional, more powerful vehicals are released. Unless the tanks are getting a monsterious buff, we should temporarily remove the proto forge unitll tanks are strong enough to require proto forge monsters.

However, there is an aspect were the Forge Gun is absurd and too multi purposed. The splash on the forge is okay, it has a balanced strength and blast radius but this splash is abused for holding down objective hacking panels, especially PC. When there is a FG above an objective you simply can not capture the objective, as the splash on the assualt FG kills all hackers. This makes this AV weapon an anti everything weapon, if you are able to kill infaintry it should be a direct hit because it is an anti vehical weapon, it does not need splash to kill vehicals and the idea that it ever did is laughable. This weapon is currently to versatile for an AV weapon, an extreemly effective AV weapon at that. The splash should be removed to define its battlefeild role, it is almost the ultimate tactical weapon when placed above ground, like the flaylock was as a sidearm

Stop crying already. All you do is cry. If you suck, and 99% of the complainers do ... go to another game. I don't play everyday and spec into these weapons for you little girls to come here crying about period cramps. GET OFF IT ALREADY! Every week you pick another weapon " to nerf" and these lames at CCp just keep sucking it up .. and killing the game by nerfing it. OP is the player behind the gun .. not the gun .. yall just suck terribly.

From the flaylock to the scrambler rifle, to the swarm launcher to the contact grenades... now the forge? I understand you started late... and you are a garbage player... so everything that kills you is OP ... too bad. Why CCP keeps penalizing the players who have played the longest .. and have the most sp .. by nerfing guns they have been using .. because all the noobs that try to play get killed quick. IT MAKES NO SENSE> I have 20 mill sp .. and been playing since b4 open beta ... I have proto forge lvl 3 .. I've been using a forge gun.. as I am a heavy... n there are only 2 heavy guns... im a dedicated player ... I should not be constantly penalized because new guys can last on the field.
Fact of the matter is... at one point ... as a noob / new player - every gun was op .. if we were going against it... so time goes on.. u get more armor n shield n u get quicker n better & stronger weapons.. n then u will 1 day be "op" too ..or at least equal to those who been playing. so relax your complaining woman-like feedback in these forums ... and go kill something.
You afk trash bags complain more than anyone else. You want to do $hit match after match .. n then when u finally get caught n killed... u come to the forums to shed tears.. GET A GIRL FRIEND ... and u old guys .. GET A WIFE ... how long has it been since u bust a nut? All that crying must be a reflection of how backed up yall are. Get a chic n let 1 off... yall need it..


CCP leave these forge along... if its able to take out a tank .. then a ground merc .. should be easily taken out as it is now ... if u have no aim .. the forge sux... close range .. the forge sux.. mid range if your aim isn't golden.. the forge sux...
the ones crying nerf ... check there sp & wp .. im sure they are very low... they need more time playing n less time crying.. n the weapons in dust wont seem op.... because they aren't.



1.4 is a heavies dream update... I feel sorry for you women crying op now.... after 1.4 don't let me see you on the battle field ..

You dont make any sense? I bet your just mad because we vehicles have made a good point and you can see a nerf coming, the OP said he wanted evidence and you have given a shambles post with just opinons... I think you should calm down a little
And try not to make a fool out of yourself

I'm down with losing splash radius, **** I'm ok with losing all of it.

I also wish it were harder to score a direct hit, not much harder, but something, cuz I rarely miss :/

As we should all know by now, AV and vehicals are going to be changed in 1.5 and most likely 1.6 and will be changed completly. as evident in this post:



So, im going to go through the whole list of AV weapons in different threads and try to collect a non biased collection of feedback the Devs can use to change vehicles and AV. So remember, what we post here is what they may listen to. Ive started a discussion on Plasma Cannons in this thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1145262#post1145262
Also, this link is the AV nade discussion: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=99452
and finally, the swarm launcher discussion https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101971 Feel free to throw in your thoughtful and reasonable ideas in either.

What are your ideas for Forge Gun rebalanced?
Remember to ALWAYS give reasons on your ideas, we dont want to give the DEVs crap to read. Put up a convincing argument!!

Personally, i think the Forge gun is mostly balanced considering we only have standard HAVs vs proto AV. With my experience with the end Chromosome Sagaris (ADV level tank) the Forge has not changed by much and is fairly balanced, the damage output is almost fair, tho it does most likely do a tad too much damage, only by maybe 300 points, very minor. However, we do not have anything past standard tanks, tho the weapon in scale is not OP, it is currently OP to standard tanks, standard tanks do not stand up well to proto forge guns, they eat them up within a single clip. This is exactly what should happen, it shouldn't take much more than a single clip for a proto forge to kill a standard tank. Sadly we are most definitely not getting the additional tanks needed to fix the balance issue, the proto forge will annihilate our standard level tanks for many months to come until additional, more powerful vehicles are released. Unless the tanks are getting a monstrous buff, we should temporarily remove the proto forge until tanks are strong enough to require proto forge monsters.

However, there is an aspect were the Forge Gun is absurd and too multipurpose. The splash on the forge is okay, it has a balanced strength and blast radius but this splash is abused for holding down objective hacking panels, especially PC. When there is a FG above an objective you simply can not capture the objective, as the splash on the assault FG kills all hackers. This makes this AV weapon an anti everything weapon, if you are able to kill infantry it should be a direct hit because it is an anti vehicle weapon, it does not need splash to kill vehicles and the idea that it ever did is laughable. This weapon is currently to versatile for an AV weapon, an extremely effective AV weapon at that. The splash should be removed to define its battlefield role, it is almost the ultimate tactical weapon when placed above ground, like the flaylock was as a sidearm

As we should all know by now, AV and vehicals are going to be changed in 1.5 and most likely 1.6 and will be changed completly. as evident in this post:



So, im going to go through the whole list of AV weapons in different threads and try to collect a non biased collection of feedback the Devs can use to change vehicals and AV. So remember, what we post here is what they may listen to. Ive started a discussion on Plasma Cannons in this thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1145262#post1145262
Also, this link is the AV nade discussion: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=99452
and finally, the swarm launcher discussion https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101971 Feel free to throw in your thoughtful and reasonable ideas in ethire.

What are your ideas for Forge Gun rebalance?
Remember to ALWAYS give reasons on your ideas, we dont want to give the DEVs crap to read. Put up a convincing argument!!

Personally, i think the Forgegun is mostly balanced considering we only have standard HAVs vs proto AV. With my experience with the end Chromosome Sagaris (ADV level tank) the Forge has not changed by much and is fairly balanced, the damage output is almost fair, tho it does most likely do a tad too much damage, only by maby 300 points, very minor. However, we do not have anything past standard tanks, tho the weapon in scale is not OP, it is currently OP to standard tanks, standard tanks do not stand up well to proto forge guns, they eat them up within a single clip. This is exactly what should happen, it shouldent take much more than a single clip for a proto forge to kill a standard tank. Sadly we are most deffenetly not getting the additional tanks needed to fix the balance issiue, the proto forge will annihilate our standard level tanks for many months to come untill additional, more powerful vehicals are released. Unless the tanks are getting a monsterious buff, we should temporarily remove the proto forge unitll tanks are strong enough to require proto forge monsters.

However, there is an aspect were the Forge Gun is absurd and too multi purposed. The splash on the forge is okay, it has a balanced strength and blast radius but this splash is abused for holding down objective hacking panels, especially PC. When there is a FG above an objective you simply can not capture the objective, as the splash on the assualt FG kills all hackers. This makes this AV weapon an anti everything weapon, if you are able to kill infaintry it should be a direct hit because it is an anti vehical weapon, it does not need splash to kill vehicals and the idea that it ever did is laughable. This weapon is currently to versatile for an AV weapon, an extreemly effective AV weapon at that. The splash should be removed to define its battlefeild role, it is almost the ultimate tactical weapon when placed above ground, like the flaylock was as a sidearm

So from your point of you the splash of an exploding ball of charged plasma should be removed? Yea buddy real logical right there

Of all the bum corps to talk .. u really.. cmon .. talk after u beat us ... and use a Kleenex to wipe your tears... your mad cuz your are one of those girls whos period is just too strong... and u cant control your hormones... I understand.. I have daughters... its all good ..

How about leave the blast radius but make the effect of the radius only effect shielding aka flux type effect, thus only a direct hit can kill infantry but it can still do damage to shielding.

Idea: The Forge Gun should do less damage to light targets (LAV, DS) and more damage to heavy targets (HAV).

Reasoning: When you fire a 50 cal at a tank it does a lot of damage due to the heavy amounts of armor on the tank. That big bullet has to punch through foot inch thick armor. As such, a lot of kinetic energy is released resulting in explosions and high damage. On the other end, if you fire a 50 cal at a jeep it doesn't do much because the armor is so thin that the bullet passes through effortlessly and keeps going. Unless you hit a certain spot (Engine block or fuel tank) the jeep will continue to run fine.

well get in here and make some points!! you are a vehical user as well, talk about how it is for dropships. Sadly i never flew i cant confidently speak for you guys :/ i would if i could

how is it for dropships? forge guns and rail tanks are the scary things. you can become scraped before you can make an adjustment to fly away. i liked what one guy said, slow down the forge travel time. if its slaw as a plasma cannon than i dont care if it does 5k damage it will take skill to use.