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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
289
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Posted - 2013.11.14 15:16:00 -
[211] - Quote
Jack Vanus wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:DISCLAIMER: This idea however introduces a problem. Currently because it is squads that earn orbital strikes the squad leader gets to call it in. That is very well defined. If the EVE player earns the orbital strike who gets to call the strike in? There are several options to this.We are currently favouring the idea of giving it to the squad with the most war points, but as said above nothing is final at this point. Bad idea. No modern military in the world would agree with this tactical option as it ruins flexibility on the battlefield for the ground commander. Any organized group would also have a problem with this and it will only get worse once larger groups are allowed to play. Any squad leader (and above when those leader positions actually get a mechanic) should be able to call in the OB based on when the Orbital becomes available. Organized groups already have this covered well tactically in game, and more skilled groups have a decentralized command and control of this. If the "highest WP" group mechanic goes live it will create a mechanic which does not reward team work beyond the squad level, or allow the ground leaders the tactical flexibility for providing mutual support to a squad under duress or press an attack.
Good points.
First, I'm all about the warbarge strikes in FW either begin removed entirely or the AOE being cut in half.
Second, I want to incentivize and reward Dust / EVE coordination. OBs are really the only way to do that at the moment so we need tread carefully. Remember "fair" is not commonly used term in New Eden.
Third, Jack Vanus is spot on...the guy on the ground that coordinated for the fleet calls the shot. I don't want a guy not on our team, and pointedly not in coms with us, to pull an OB from our fleet and potentially splash our guys and miss a momentum changing opportunity to kill the one sniper that's been hosing him the whole match.
Fourth, I want friendly fire to effect mercs and fleet. Right now if a duster commits FF he gets a huge standings hit. I think we have to have some kind of mechanic that stings the eve player at least a little. |
501st Headstrong
Svartur Bjorn
42
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:03:00 -
[212] - Quote
Agreed. And when can Squad Leaders call in different Orbitals? That would be very cool...
The things I would do with a Proto Minmatar Assault Suit...Checks SP Hello Panda Bear!!!
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Eris Ernaga
State Patriots
698
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:05:00 -
[213] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:Agreed. And when can Squad Leaders call in different Orbitals? That would be very cool...
Well well well if it isn't my arch enemy.
State Patriots a loyal Caldari based corporation is accepting all Caldari and Amarr to help fight on the front.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
5018
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:09:00 -
[214] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:Agreed. And when can Squad Leaders call in different Orbitals? That would be very cool...
Eh?
Different orbitals?
They already can, if you have the EVE support. Laser strikes are different to hybrid strikes and EMP strikes are very different indeed.
Level 5 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
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501st Headstrong
Svartur Bjorn
42
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Posted - 2013.11.14 21:13:00 -
[215] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:Agreed. And when can Squad Leaders call in different Orbitals? That would be very cool... Eh? Different orbitals? They already can, if you have the EVE support. Laser strikes are different to hybrid strikes and EMP strikes are very different indeed.
Ah, I didn't know they needed Eve Support. Thanks buddy
The things I would do with a Proto Minmatar Assault Suit...Checks SP Hello Panda Bear!!!
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Jack Vanus
Brimstone Tactical
Covert Intervention
23
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Posted - 2013.11.24 22:38:00 -
[216] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Another thought on orbitals - There could be an orbital control point. An orbital would become available every 10 minutes or so, and whichever team is in control of the point at that time, is the team that can signal an EVE pilot to make the strike.
Every 10 minutes? Most matches go for 10-15 minutes, 20 minutes if its drawn out and many of our teams average 4-5 OB in a typical match. (On rare occassions we sometimes do more.)
I think 10 minutes is on the long side.
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Jack Vanus
Brimstone Tactical
Covert Intervention
23
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Posted - 2013.11.24 22:54:00 -
[217] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:SolusNothos wrote:I'm late to this party and haven't read any of the other replies yet.
1: Yep remove warbarge strikes form FW/PC, or cut the WP needed for Orbitals. Either is fine by me.
So onto some thoughts and ideas for Orbitals and Eve-Dust Link in general.
1: Make orbitals more substantial. Currently it doesn't FEEL any better than a Warbarge strike. Hard to convince people to use the Orbital if they don't see the point.
2: Damage patterns. Allow the Capsuleer to set how the orbital strike lands, such as a line, a spread or all in one small cluster.
3: Intel map when connected. Give the Capsuleer a window that has a map with icons on it representing where all the Dust stuff is located. Only has to update with server tick's. GIves the capsuleer something to do while waiting.
4: Orbital repositioning. Nothing sucks more than an orbital that misses everything. Allow the capsuleer to adjust, up to a point, the precise strike location.
5: Allow the Capsuleer to deploy corp assets such as Tanks himself. Offload some of the strategic logistics. All assets dropped this way have to be donated to the Corp from Dust beforehand.
6: Indirect strikes. Split the map up into grids and allow the Capsuleer to bombard a section randomly. NO precision with these, they just drop haphazardly. Could force a certain minimum time bombarding a section, like say 45 seconds. A way to earn WP for a capsuleer. I'm going to add to this joining the Team channel. One of the biggest issues with trying to offer support is having to put everyone in a custom channel just so the EVE player can talk to them. You can set up connecting to the district itself as a trigger that links you to your allies' Team channel.
Have the EVE player make the channel... its a lot easier for him. |
Jack Vanus
Brimstone Tactical
Covert Intervention
23
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Posted - 2013.11.24 22:55:00 -
[218] - Quote
On Another note for capturing beacons and why its a bad idea vs letting all players connected fire:
Its about the time it takes to even do this and that there is no spatial travel component for the DUST players.
The key difference between DUST514 and EVE is that DUST514 is only done in short bursts of 10-20 minutes for FW and PC battles. EVE has no time limit... its always on and the risk never stops which creates other factors which impact the mechanics. Time gets burned up in EVE performing actions like traveling to the system once the ground side lets you know where its going down (3-5 minutes if the pilots is close, far longer if not), then warping to district, connecting, swapping ammo, then firing when requested, for the last 5-10 minutes if its even that long, then going to the next system requested because the DUST players are magically whisked away to a new system in less than a minute while the pilots have to travel through hostile space... it all takes time... a lot of time and that is the best case scenario.
Add more time if a hostile group shows up to just kill the friendly ship (mostly pirates not even in FW who saw the ship on the overview light up like a bright beacon when it landed on district). Assuming it might actually be a hostile group who is supporting the enemy on the ground. Now people are fighting. Which would be AWESOME, except if they were providing OB support but only one can connect at a time... well that is another 2-5 minutes (depending on pilots skill, ship fits, and more) where pilots are sparring and neither side can fire anyway.
The best fleet fights we have had over planets have been OB battles where both sides are attempting to provide OB support while at the same time the fleet is fighting each other as well. If the Capture/King of the Hill mechanic is introduced... it will not cause big fights... because big fleets wont bother for a 2-5 minute window for OB engagement. DUST514 is not persistent enough to support this idea and even if it was... capture isn't the answer because those fights would happen anyway without the mechanic.
Pilots or Fleets attempting to fight over a planetary district will not try to push the other fleet off who got there first if they couldn't kill it all in less than a minute because it would not give them enough time to actually drop an OB and support their buddies. For the same reason Pilots and Fleets already in position wont stay there unless they can kill the new aggressors in less than a minute because they wont bother to stick around if they cannot drop OB to support their buddies on the ground because of the limited time window to drop an OB.
The answer is to allow both sides to connect and fire as it is now. with all EVE Pilots on a firing cycle timer.
I would also add that there should be a mechanic to further allow player involvement/skills to cut the speed of that firing cycle both in space and on the ground in some way, this will create a variable speed to the firing cycle, damage, or area of effect to some of the OB support provided from space and make a new dedicated ground OB Forward Observer role on DUST and a OB FC role in EVE as well.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
339
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Posted - 2013.11.24 23:34:00 -
[219] - Quote
Jack Vanus wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Another thought on orbitals - There could be an orbital control point. An orbital would become available every 10 minutes or so, and whichever team is in control of the point at that time, is the team that can signal an EVE pilot to make the strike. Every 10 minutes? Most matches go for 10-15 minutes, 20 minutes if its drawn out and many of our teams average 4-5 OB in a typical match. (On rare occassions we sometimes do more.) I think 10 minutes is on the long side.
Honestly needs to be more of a free play mechanic. Everybody can hook up to drop OBs, but you make yourself vulnerable once your onstation. Multiple ships can hook up at same time...but they can all shoot at each other.
Bottom line - if fight on the ground and fight in the sky. Sucess is when you have go have an OB ship and another couple jus to overwatch them or push off contesting fleet. Guys on the ground are accruing WP and can call the shots. I'm actually ok with EVEpilots getting the option to look at the map we do and pull the trigger. If they don't aim for the mark put down by the ground team and get some friendly fire then they should get a massive hit to their faction standings.
Opens us to meta game actions and gives everyone one more of a say.
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3854
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Posted - 2013.11.25 00:42:00 -
[220] - Quote
Jack Vanus wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:SolusNothos wrote:I'm late to this party and haven't read any of the other replies yet.
1: Yep remove warbarge strikes form FW/PC, or cut the WP needed for Orbitals. Either is fine by me.
So onto some thoughts and ideas for Orbitals and Eve-Dust Link in general.
1: Make orbitals more substantial. Currently it doesn't FEEL any better than a Warbarge strike. Hard to convince people to use the Orbital if they don't see the point.
2: Damage patterns. Allow the Capsuleer to set how the orbital strike lands, such as a line, a spread or all in one small cluster.
3: Intel map when connected. Give the Capsuleer a window that has a map with icons on it representing where all the Dust stuff is located. Only has to update with server tick's. GIves the capsuleer something to do while waiting.
4: Orbital repositioning. Nothing sucks more than an orbital that misses everything. Allow the capsuleer to adjust, up to a point, the precise strike location.
5: Allow the Capsuleer to deploy corp assets such as Tanks himself. Offload some of the strategic logistics. All assets dropped this way have to be donated to the Corp from Dust beforehand.
6: Indirect strikes. Split the map up into grids and allow the Capsuleer to bombard a section randomly. NO precision with these, they just drop haphazardly. Could force a certain minimum time bombarding a section, like say 45 seconds. A way to earn WP for a capsuleer. I'm going to add to this joining the Team channel. One of the biggest issues with trying to offer support is having to put everyone in a custom channel just so the EVE player can talk to them. You can set up connecting to the district itself as a trigger that links you to your allies' Team channel. Have the EVE player make the channel... its a lot easier for him.
You're missing my point, though.
The whole idea is that you connect into the same channel that all the Dust players get put into automatically when they drop into a match. You want to make the coordination between both games as simple as possible.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Jack Vanus
Brimstone Tactical
Covert Intervention
25
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Posted - 2013.11.25 03:30:00 -
[221] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Jack Vanus wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:
You can set up connecting to the district itself as a trigger that links you to your allies' Team channel.
Have the EVE player make the channel... its a lot easier for him. You're missing my point, though. The whole idea is that you connect into the same channel that all the Dust players get put into automatically when they drop into a match. You want to make the coordination between both games as simple as possible.
No, I get what you are writing... the problem is in the operational coordination... getting into comms by connecting is already too late. If you are getting pilots that way anyway make two or three dedicated channels to have your groups use them. its not hard. What you are postulating actually limits your ability to coordinate ops.
What I will state more clearly is if the pilot is not already in comms with a team long before the point at which the ground team are going to start a match on the ground that ground team is unlikely to get many OB. It just doesnt work well.
We coordinate plenty of OB and not just for our own teams but with others as well. The team channel connection at the point of connecting to the channel is sub optimal... and probably actually a drawback for a number of reasons I wont get into on here. I will let you figure them out on your own. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3855
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Posted - 2013.11.25 12:27:00 -
[222] - Quote
Jack Vanus wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Jack Vanus wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:
You can set up connecting to the district itself as a trigger that links you to your allies' Team channel.
Have the EVE player make the channel... its a lot easier for him. You're missing my point, though. The whole idea is that you connect into the same channel that all the Dust players get put into automatically when they drop into a match. You want to make the coordination between both games as simple as possible. No, I get what you are writing... the problem is in the operational coordination... getting into comms by connecting is already too late. If you are getting pilots that way anyway make two or three dedicated channels to have your groups use them. its not hard. What you are postulating actually limits your ability to coordinate ops. What I will state more clearly is if the pilot is not already in comms with a team long before the point at which the ground team are going to start a match on the ground that ground team is unlikely to get many OB. It just doesnt work well. We coordinate plenty of OB and not just for our own teams but with others as well. The team channel connection at the point of connecting to the channel is sub optimal... and probably actually a drawback for a number of reasons I wont get into on here. I will let you figure them out on your own.
When I was in CRONOS I was pretty much the only EVE player who even bothered providing orbitals, which had me running all over the place every day to cover our PC matches. Coordinating before a match wasn't hard at all because I could just has out details over text and then join into the audio chat when the time came. As well, our EVE-side directors would update the Alliance bulletin with a full list of all our PC matches so pilots knew where to be and at what time at a glance.
Many Dust Corps also have custom channels that they use, which can be used to hash things out over audio if preferred. A factor you might not have considered is that having the entire team in a custom channel with other players, both Dust and EVE, seems to contribute to lag in PC matches.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Reno Pechieu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
27
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Posted - 2013.11.25 17:53:00 -
[223] - Quote
At the moment Orbital Strike is a broken Score-steak system, because:
1) Unlike Score-streak in other games, it isnGÇÖt tied to a player but a squad. This makes it easier to GÇ£farmGÇ¥. A high Score-streak in other games can be averted by killing that player, as said, this isnGÇÖt possible in Dust 514 ATM
2) Most Score-streaks in other games have limitations in some form, activation time, or ways to counter . In Dust itGÇÖs an attack from any place on the map, on any place of the map, with no risk to your side and no way for the enemy to oppose (other than not being there)
First I would love to see a Cooldown on NPC OBs
Also, add recruitment for the target area to be painted with a scanner, as they do in real life. This would make scouts with scanners more important, note that this doesnGÇÖt necessary have to be the one calling the OB, maybe even in the squad.
This would also reduce the OBs being used to counter every part of the map, failure to use scanner could cause the OB miss (not hugely, but could mean that it fails to kill the people capturing a point)
Another possibility as I mentioned in another thread would be to make OBs the decision of the commander of the round, putting one in responsibility of ground tactical developments to coordinate with the folks in space.
Using a Commander Point system similar to Tom Clancy Endwar and give them more options.
The two secrets to be a good sadist:
1) Don't tell them everything you planned.
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