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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
27895
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
DISCLAIMER: This is a discussion about stuff that has not happened yet and is not planned to happen for at least a few months at the earliest. There was a discussion on IRC about it yesterday and I wanted to keep the discussion going. Nothing in here is finalized yet, work has not even begun on it yet. /disclaimer
Hey guys,
It is no secret that one of the things we would like to do is fiddle with the orbital strikes design. This includes a few small things like normalizing how we name everything (precision strike, orbital strike, orbital bombardment, other random names), making sure players know when they have an orbital strike available by always displaying something on the HUD instead of having the message show up and then disappear which often gets missed (I had 3 OBs the other night and had no idea... I am a bad squad leader...).
One of the other things we would like to do is make it so that NPC provided orbital strikes, the precision strike from the war barge, is only available in what is currently known as instant battles. That would mean that in in Factional Warfare and Planetary Conquest battles the only orbital support would be from EVE players. This is a pretty straight forward change but there is more we want to do.
We would like to also make it so that EVE orbitals are NOT earned via war points. Orbitals in instant battles would still be earned via WP... unless we come up with something else but at this time we are currently not thinking of touching it. For EVE orbitals though we are looking at making it so that the EVE pilot earns the orbital strike by capturing a beacon above the district. This would work very much the same way Factional Warfare complex beacons work. Also very similar to how it worked for the Fanfest tournament.
This idea however introduces a problem. Currently because it is squads that earn orbital strikes the squad leader gets to call it in. That is very well defined. If the EVE player earns the orbital strike who gets to call the strike in? There are several options to this.
- Any squad leader fighting for the same faction as the EVE pilot gets to call it in. This however leads to all the squad leaders rushing as quickly as possible to call it in as the EVE player is probably going to fire on the first target to appear. This means that often times they may be wasted and experienced players will probably rage... a lot.
- The squad leader of the squad with the most war points gets access to the orbital strike. They are the ones with the most WP and so probably the most deserving of it... but that will probably snowball in a match and no one else would ever get it.
In a Planetary Conquest match we could open it up to all squad leaders and say "hey, your match control your people" and that would be the end of it. However in a Factional Warfare match you don't control who gets in and who doesn't so it's not fair to say that and we would like to have the same system for handling this with both types of battle.
We are currently favouring the idea of giving it to the squad with the most war points, but as said above nothing is final at this point.
The three things I am most interested in hearing about are:
- What do you think about removing war barge strikes from FW and PC?
- What do you think about EVE players earning the orbital strike?
- What do you think about who should earn calling in the orbital strike?
That of course does not mean don't discuss other things relating to orbital strikes, but I would prefer to keep that discussion focused around those 3 points.
So please, let us know what you think.
Game Designer // Team True Grit
http://twitter.com/regnerba |
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ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood
998
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
first |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
27896
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh yea, also I would like to look at giving the EVE player in FW LP for dropping orbitals... need to look into it though and make sure it cannot be exploited or anything stupid like that. :)
Game Designer // Team True Grit
http://twitter.com/regnerba |
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Halador Osiris
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
558
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
How about we level the war points after every OB? I'm not saying literally cut them to zero, but only factor in WP gained since the last OB. This levels the playing field meaning that any squad has an equal chance of gaining the most WP before the next OB. While it's likely that the same squad could roll it out multiple times, it is still fair to the other contenders. |
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
318
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
I am disappointed in your lack of references to being sure. See me after class Mr CCP FoxFour.
If you put in a permanent indicator for when an orbital strike is available, there will be much rejoicing.
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
27896
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Halador Osiris wrote:How about we level the war points after every OB? I'm not saying literally cut them to zero, but only factor in WP gained since the last OB. This levels the playing field meaning that any squad has an equal chance of gaining the most WP before the next OB. While it's likely that the same squad could roll it out multiple times, it is still fair to the other contenders.
This I like... :D Thank you very much for the feedback!
Game Designer // Team True Grit
http://twitter.com/regnerba |
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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
1295
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 12:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Pilot should be able to choose a squad leader when they connect to the district.
The whole draw of dropping OB's from eve is to support your friends. You don't want to support random dudes in most cases. You earn a strike, you want your friend to have it.
In the case of an eve player just earning strikes for whomever... Let them pick a random squad guy if they don't know anyone in the match. They'll just be making some dust dude's day.
Also, WP-earned OB strikes should allow the eve player to shoot for the other squads too. The connecting to a specific squad leader in that regard should only apply to strikes that the eve players earn. |
Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
56
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:The Pilot should be able to choose a squad leader when they connect to the district.
The whole draw of dropping OB's from eve is to support your friends. You don't want to support random dudes in most cases. You earn a strike, you want your friend to have it.
In the case of an eve player just earning strikes for whomever... Let them pick a random squad guy if they don't know anyone in the match. They'll just be making some dust dude's day.
Also, WP-earned OB strikes should allow the eve player to shoot for the other squads too. The connecting to a specific squad leader in that regard should only apply to strikes that the eve players earn.
I think this is reliable too - a pop-up list of current squad leaders and the EVE pilot picks who he wants to support... which makes sense in a lot of ways... if he knows someone - good! he gets to support this friend/collegue. If he doesn't, then he can pick a random person anyway. |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood
998
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
... well i was first :p
1) I think you should increase the wp requirement for OB's in FW and PC matches.
2) Depends on how they earn wp... if its just sitting on a beacon for a set time... i dont like it.
3) Idealy we should be able to name an FC (field comander) and he has that choice |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
167
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like the fact that Eve players have to earn their bombardments by risking themselves by being undocked and uncloaked etc. |
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Halador Osiris
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
558
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Halador Osiris wrote:How about we level the war points after every OB? I'm not saying literally cut them to zero, but only factor in WP gained since the last OB. This levels the playing field meaning that any squad has an equal chance of gaining the most WP before the next OB. While it's likely that the same squad could roll it out multiple times, it is still fair to the other contenders. This I like... :D Thank you very much for the feedback! I should add on to this that WP should probably only be counted from the END of the OB, because otherwise the squad who dropped in the OB would potentially get a 250 point head start, if they got 5 kills out of the OB. |
Ghural
The Southern Legion
115
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Posted - 2013.08.08 12:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Doesn't the proposed change put Dust only corps at a disadvantage?
Keep in mind that not all DUst players know about EVE
There needs to be a means be which both dust and eve players can meet and form social ties. Being able to meet them in stations would assist in this. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
DARKSTAR ARMY
401
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
1) I agree with removing the warbarge OB from PC.
FW is too casual, it's better to keep the warbarge precision strike, i suggest to raise the number of WP needed for an orbital, with a team of 6 is not that hard to gain one.
2) I have no experience of EVE, i suppose i have nothing against it.
3) You can let all squad leaders set an objective for the OB, then the EVE pilot will choose.
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Kekklian Noobatronic
Goonfeet
Top Men.
288
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Until you add "Removal of Orbital Strike's from the War Barge in Instant Battle" to the list of things you're going to be doing, I don't think anyone can take you seriously.
Rewarding people for pub stomping - as it is now - is one of the must unfriendly, unbalanced things you have introduced and left in. You're killing retention every time some poor new player comes out of the laughable "Battle Academy", only to get orbital struck 2-3 times in a match by a bunch of tryhards in a squad.
I can't believe that you're even bothering with the sections of the game that people aren't really playing(You know, because they aren't worth anyones time?). FW rewards are pathetic, and it's ridden with multi-queue teams. PC is dead because there's no incentive.
Protip: Fix the sections that attract/retain players - you know, so we can have more than 3k max on at any given time - then worry about the (currently laughable) fringe game modes that a relatively few players actually play. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
918
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
There was an old demo of a merc passing a code to a pilot that had to be keyed in to target the ground. For this to work real coordination should be required. As for the pilot earning the right to shoot I think they should only need to be within a certain range of the beacon but they must "achieve orbit" by having zero velocity and then targeting the ground. Targeting should be a fairly lengthy process.
Pilot then tells his buddy on the ground that he is in position and targeting is locked the ground spotter then targets the field and gets back a code: XYZ. He verbally passes the code to the pilot whom may then deliver the strike. At this point the target lock is lost and the pilot must then relock.
If the pilot is uncontested you can tailor the number of minutes between strikes by tweaking how long ground targeting takes.
If the pilot is contested by enemies he may choose to sit there and absorb damage but his ground lock could be broken by ECM. Maybe not allow both ground and normal target locking.
This method avoids arbitrary WP accumulation or capturing of a beacon. It simply requires domination of the sky and real coordination between spotter and pilot.
If multiple pilots are a problem then any orbital strike could be so disruptive that all ground locks are lost, including those of the enemy if both are trying at the same time.
If you want to take it a step further you could require a piece of equipment to point to the target and spotter skill. |
Bendtner92
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
844
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
How about one person is Platoon Leader (or whatever you decide to call it), and this person is the one calling in the OBs.
You could implement this role for Instant Battles as well, and then change the system so that the entire team collects WP for OBs. The WP requirement should of course be increased a lot. 10k WP might be good, but the exact number is not really the important part here for now. This would solve the problems with matches having squads on one side only and they get OBs, but the other side doesn't because they're all solo players. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
918
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 13:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
FW should not be so casual. I think it should require coordination to get any strikes. I also think mercs should be able to join an FW faction. I never understood why game design felt that foot soldiers should not be able to commit. FW has enough pilots roaming the skies. If they had infantry in their FW channels you'd see a lot more interest from the EVE side.
Let me join the Minmatar militia. Let me wear the colors of the Republic. Let me call targets to my brothers in space and rain fire down on these filthy slavers. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
167
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 13:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Halador Osiris wrote:How about we level the war points after every OB? I'm not saying literally cut them to zero, but only factor in WP gained since the last OB. This levels the playing field meaning that any squad has an equal chance of gaining the most WP before the next OB. While it's likely that the same squad could roll it out multiple times, it is still fair to the other contenders. This I like... :D Thank you very much for the feedback!
Or maybe once you get a successful strike, your squad counts as -2500 war points.
That way if you have a strike ready and you have
squad a: 2600pts
squad b: 2000pts
then squad a gets the strike, but a few minutes later, it would be:
squad a: 4000 points (but really 1500)
squad b: 3000 points
and squad b would get the strike authorisation. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3368
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 13:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
For PC at least, I think it's worth keeping the NPC Precision Strikes. Not every PC-capable Corp in DUST is going to have EVE support on call. For now, most do, and in future, most will, but not all, and not forever. I understand (and agree with) encouraging the EVE-DUST link, but this isn't encouraging, it's forcing it. DUST-exclusive Corps need to be capable of functioning - if at a slight disadvantage - without the reliance on EVE players. Corps with limited EVE support need options when their Capsuleers are unreachable.
And on that note, for PC, I think there should be a WP limit on squads calling in Orbitals, AND a limit on EVE players being available for them. So you need to capture the beacon so your team has access to an Orbital Strike, AND the ground forces need to build up their WP to call it in. When a squad has called in their first strike, they need more WP before they can call in another, making it more likely that other squads will have the WP and that top squad won't any more. If it looks like the space battle is turning against you, Precision Strikes are still available. If your team can't capture the beacon and you need urgent support, you can also use a Precision Strike instead of waiting. The EVE support would be more effective/powerful, and ideally you want to wait for that opportunity, but that won't be the only option.
Faction Warfare is less likely to have these problems. You're automatically being targeted on areas in which there's an active space battle, which means there will usually be ships present fighting for both sides. In this situation, the elimination of Precision Strikes is more reasonable, and helps to make FW feel more like it's empire vs. empire combat rather than the player-owned Corporations or the regular NPC Corps going against one another.
Also for FW, it might work better to have sequential orbital requests. Availability could determined purely by EVE players controlling the beacon, and the highest WP count for a squad would mean they get priority on the strike. If a squad uses the strike, they become ineligible for another strike until all other squads have had a chance. Or they have their accumulated WP total reset for purposes of determining priority on an Orbital. The former option would mean that you guarantee to "cycle" through the squads during the course of the match, with the "best" players getting the first orbital, and the team's lesser-skilled players providing support later in the match. Using the other option would allow a particularly dominant squad to take all the orbital support themselves, but they would have to be performing a LOT better than the rest of the DUST Mercs on that side of the conflict. |
Cass Caul
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ugh. I hate the fact that any team can earn an precision strike in Planetary Conquest. An EVE player can choose 3 variants of damage (or so I've been told. I don't fly destroyers), which might be better if trying to destroy an armor tank, but every single squad can earn their own OB. The DUST side Precision Strike takes half the time to call in as the EVE Orbital Bombardment, which just makes having some EVE guys about your planet/district a waste of time for them and possibly at the risk of losing a ship or two.
That makes it pointless. Removing the player earned OBs would make EVE alliance members more valuable and strengthen the interconnection of DUST and EVE.
Unrelated, I think you need to stop giving Guardian points to someone with the armor repairer on the squad leader during an OB, and all the kill assist points for hopping into a Tank/LAV while the OB drops. |
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Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1029
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Would it be possible that whatever links a player over a district could link him automatically to the audio chat channel for the team he is launching strikes for? That could help with coordination. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
5326
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:The three things I am most interested in hearing about are:
- What do you think about removing war barge strikes from FW and PC?
- What do you think about EVE players earning the orbital strike?
- What do you think about who should earn calling in the orbital strike?
That of course does not mean don't discuss other things relating to orbital strikes, but I would prefer to keep that discussion focused around those 3 points. So please, let us know what you think.
I like
I like
Squad with most WP in faction warfare, and for planetary conquest it should be left for the corp to decide for themselves.
I'm liking these change idea |
Sardonk Eternia
Multnomah Interstellar Holdings Inc.
136
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
So happy to see these ideas. Yes eve pilot in FW should get an incentive to provide strikes. Make it juicy so I can go kill them while they attempt to do it. |
Kevall Longstride
DUST University
Ivy League
421
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
1. All for it. In fact why the hell wasn't this the case from day 1?
2. As someone who was in the Fanfest Tourney, EVERYONE participating said that's how OB's should be earned. The earlier idea for a WP reset after each OB is a good one.
3. In PC battles, one player should be the designated OB user. In FW the squad with the most WP and in the same corp as the pilot should get the dibs on the OB. In the case of no pilot in the same corp, the squad leader with the highest WP gets dibs. Pilots should also get LP as a reward. In PC battles, the pilot should get the same ISK payout for a successful OB strike as the highest earning Merc on the ground.
Eve pilots currently don't give a flying f about OB as its determined by others and they get nothing but a thank you for their time. This would reward them and make it worth the effort. It would also mean that it be worth allowing some eve pilots into your dust corp.
Some dust corps don't have nor do they intend to have any Eve pilots. In this case a contract system should be put in place so a dust corp with pilots can be contracted to do so with the usual collateral down payment to avoid scamming. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3368
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 13:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:Ugh. I hate the fact that any team can earn an precision strike in Planetary Conquest. An EVE player can choose 3 variants of damage (or so I've been told. I don't fly destroyers), which might be better if trying to destroy an armor tank, but every single squad can earn their own OB. The DUST side Precision Strike takes half the time to call in as the EVE Orbital Bombardment, which just makes having some EVE guys about your planet/district a waste of time for them and possibly at the risk of losing a ship or two.
That makes it pointless. Removing the player earned OBs would make EVE alliance members more valuable and strengthen the interconnection of DUST and EVE.
Unrelated, I think you need to stop giving Guardian points to someone with the armor repairer on the squad leader during an OB, and all the kill assist points for hopping into a Tank/LAV while the OB drops.
This raises very real concerns.
But I still, for the reasons I stated beforehand, don't think that PC should lose Precision Strikes.
What I DO think should happen is that the delay on activation should be increased, so you have to plan your Precision Strike ahead in the same way you do with an EVE Orbital.
Precision Strikes give you a single option rather than the selection of ammo types available with EVE Orbitals. They also have a smaller blast radius and less damage, and with the proposed change, they DON'T get the advantage of a reduced firing delay any more. This way, for PC, the only advantage to Warbarge Precision vs. EVE Orbital is that the former can be used closer to friendly units without risking FF damage, and doesn't require support from another game that you can't guarantee every competitive Corp in DUST will want to involve themselves with. |
Cass Caul
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
If a warbarge can fire onto the battlefield, then EVE pilots should be able to destroy them. |
RedRebelCork
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
311
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
What do you think about removing war barge strikes from FW and PC?
Strongly agree with this.
What do you think about EVE players earning the orbital strike?
Again, I strongly agree. It only makes sense that to be able to call in orbital support your navy need to establish orbital supremacy. Once they have that they should be able to drop strikes at regular intervals. If possible there should also be a status where both sides battling in orbit can call in strikes. A scenario where I have 100 ships in orbit but I need to wait for a beacon countdown or some other arbitrary flag before being allowed to drop ordnance would be annoying and not make much sense. Presumably this would encourage people to actually fight over a planet rather than run away when they see the enemy have them outmatched.
What do you think about who should earn calling in the orbital strike?
My preference would be EVE players get to pick who gets the strike so long as they have the required rank. Different strikes being available to different ranks. Examples:
- Precision Strike: A pin-point attack that can destroy an installation or stationary vehicle. Available to a platoon leader.
- Orbital Strike: Same old same old. Available to any squad leader the eve player chooses.
- Nova Strike: A strike that can be called in once per battle, requires a battleship (or whatever) to call in. Can destroy a null cannon on the ground. Only your commander can call this in. Has access to all lower strikes if wanted.
Other thoughts:
- Strafing runs from drones would be cool. Deployed like RDVs to do a strafe from one side of map to the other.
- Visible explosions in the sky when eve pilots are destroyed in orbit would be awesome.
- An electro-magnetic (EM) strike to disable tacnet and enemy comms for 60 seconds would be a cool tactical tool.
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Draxus Prime
BurgezzE.T.F
1340
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Posted - 2013.08.08 13:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
how about for the FW strike if a squad leader marks a location for a strike it pulls up a map of the district showing the location of all spotted/scanned enemies,vehicles and installations (encourages active scanner) for the EVE player
SO the eve player can accept the strike command if theres many targets or a high value target or not accept, which triggers a sound queue like the RDV sound queue for calling in a vehicle to a unsuitable location except she would say something like "Orbital Strike request denied, location unsutible for maximum effect" except the sound queue would be played to the whole team so the other squad leaders know they can try to use the strike
I just remembered during fanfest 2012 they showed a video called "EVE A Future Vision" where the guy is looking at a screen when he aborts the airstrike and calls in a orbital strike instead, the screen could look like that |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
918
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 13:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
I agree with only allowing for NPC orbital strikes in the instant battles. That gives the casual players a chance to experience them without any dependency on EVE. For those asking that they remain in FW or PC remember that we are trying to build more ties between pilots and mercs. If you can fall back on the crutch of NPC provided strikes then there is little motivation to achieve pilot provided strikes, even if the damage is fairly different.
Remove the crutch and people will start to build the ties if the mechanics are available.
This goes back to my thing about letting soldiers join the militia. It's less casual than instant battles but less formal than alliances and planetary conquest. Let us join a faction and put us in the same channels. Give pilots some sort of reward for risking their ships even if its just some sort of killmail. |
Taeryn Frost
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2013.08.08 14:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Calling down Orbitals in instant matches is almost always a "wiping the floor" measure. Only two times in all the numerous battles I can remember has it turned the tide of the battle. What's the point in having a team field 3 or 4 madrugars being able to use a orbital after they already slaughtered most of the opposition?
I can't really offer meaningful comments on FW or PC, so I'll leave that to more informed guys. |
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