good lord, please go find a hobby. Throwing numbers around like this is probably just as boring for you as it is for anyone reading the thread. This is a pointless exercise.

I don't play COD very often anymore for a reason (everyone is the same with no real benefit to leveling up), that said this looks like a re balance that would require a skill reset of some sort or even just an asset reset, which would be just as bad/good. Can you clarify what you mean without throwing a spreadsheet at me? I am whole-heartedly opposed to any new resets as I have seen so many I just want to work on skilling into the gear I've wanted for the last 2 years.

good lord, please go find a hobby. Throwing numbers around like this is probably just as boring for you as it is for anyone reading the thread. This is a pointless exercise.

Sounds good but seems like an awful lot to change and balance while we already have so many pressing issues at hand.



Some people like numbers, thank you very much. If this thread bores you then move on.

It's for the best.
I know it's a lot of work, in fact CCP are doing it in EVE for 4 or 5 expansions now, and they still haven't even touched capital ships.
But the sooner they start before there are 101 variants of suits, the less work they will have.
Dust needs it.

GDI Cat! I'm in the middle of working on the exact same topic- just in a different way. We should compare notes when I'm done.

Awesome!
Come to Dust IRC, we'll talk there.

I can't get on IRC at work.

After work :P

How to go about such a change is difficult. You can't just remove ADV and PRO; that's slashing content. And in a content starved game, that's a good way to get players to leave.

However, we can do some interesting things to retain the previous depth and feeling of investment, while crafting a system that keeps everything useful.

I'm going to run through a little case scenario to show what I mean.

Here's a skill tree I cooked up for the Skill Tree Think Tank thread.

Looking at the tree, you'll find that I've marked Standard equipment to be unlocked by the basic operation skill. Case example: Hybrid Weapon Operation unlocks standard "tech 1" versions of the Nova Knive; Assault Rifle; Shotgun; Plasma Cannon; Sniper Rifle and Forge Gun. There's also a proficiency skill for each weapon, and a bunch of Weapon Upgrade skills.

So here's where things start to get a bit wild; proficiency unlocks the ability to use ADV and PRO gear, so what do we do?

We can turn ADV weapons into "tech 2" modular weapons which can fit various upgrade modules unlocked by the Weapon Upgrades branch.

By default, the ADV weapons are nothing more but STD weapons in terms of stats, but their modularity allows you to specialize them a la mass effect 3 weapons bench (in other words, you slap a 4x scope on your rifle, you lose hip fire accuracy in exchange). Each ADV weapon has various amounts of slots depending on the weapon in question and is fitted just like any suit or vehicle.

We turn PRO weapons into faction, pirate, and officer weapons. They become semi-rare to very rare loot drops and their performance varies from "straight upgrade from STD but worse than ADV" faction, to "straight upgrade from STD, about as good as ADV" pirate, to "better than ADV" officer.

This solves the current power creep problem.
STD becomes baseline equipment. They scale exceptionally well with your support skills, and have great bang for buck.
ADV becomes a more expensive, but customizable STD weapon where increasing one trait diminishes another.
PRO becomes a high risk reward option that is rarely seen in anything but the most serious fights (adjust drop rates as nessesary).

Missed the point.

Indeed he did.

Good to see you finally put this up! If they're going to do the radical changes they say they are, emulating the Reykjavik team and discarding the Tier system is probably in order.

This proposal provides players with skill for Frames with the ability to actually be useful, rather than just get stomped on by Specialists.

Shameless self promotion and cross posting from gbghg's thread.


My thread is here, in case anyone cares about the skill tree.

This is not slashing content.
In fact this adds even more content.

REMEMBER, EVERYTHING IN THIS THREAD IS AN EXAMPLE, AVOID DEBATING ABOUT SPECIFIC ITEM BALANCE, ONLY THE IDEA

Then why the wall of numbers? Would have been better spent explaining why tiericide in dust is needed. Also, I like numbers, just only when used appropriately in a way that makes some amount of sense, rather than distracting from the point.

Concerns - Current system allows people to pay a premium for performance. This is not inherently a bad thing, and its certainly how it happens in EVE. Where in the new system will this have a place?

In the current system the power or edge you have over opponents is primarily better equipment. Lots of skills are solely about unlocks, and the inherent skill bonuses are minor at best. In your proposed system, where the equipment itself has less tiers, would having skill ranks themselves for their inherent bonuses be the most important differentiating factor? They would need to be much more powerful than current skill bonuses.

Sorry my initial post was rude, but people should be skeptical of jesus-feature-overhaul-ideas of core gameplay design. We certainly need to examine it more critically than "it was good for eve so its good for dust." Tiers in EVE were bad because they combined differing roles with increasing costs and increasing general performance. Here, with the exception of some weapon/equipment variants only being available at ADV/PRO level, a higher tier usually conforms to the exact same role.

Not a fan of having 5 versions of the gallente medium frame, either. You're taking customization that should be left to the module fittings and transplanting it unnecessarily to the suit choice.

Another random comment, in the current system the light/medium/heavy suits are too similar to scout/assault/sentinel suits. Hopefully that will change when CCP gets the suit bonuses sorted out.

I'm pretty sure that those people in this thread complaining about your op just didn't take the time to read it. If they did they might see that what you are saying is one of the most well thought out solutions to the std/adv/proto system that is keeping a large portion of the playerbase from being competitive.

I really like the idea. I think that the diversity of adding in multiple variants of everything and keeping it all at an accessible level would make the game experience much less of a grind.

Few problems though. How would they overhaul the entire system and how would they keep everyone from piling onto a FOTM suit (ie: balance issues that will need constant tweaking).

All in all though this is a great idea and I support it.

I don't understand your "how would they overhaul the entire system" comment, can you explain?
And the answer to the FOTM thing would be, they should stop making stuff that is so godly OP that it becomes a FOTM.
OP stuff doesn't get latched on to unless it's godlike, and those can be avoided. (LLAV, Caldari Logi, Flaylock, TAC AR, those are all obvious if they just give it 5 seconds of thought)

I'm fine with something being slightly stronger or slightly weaker, as it will eventually get fixed and since it's only a slight thing, most players won't bother latching onto it/moving away from it.

meow

Bark.

HISSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Well, first off, I will explain why I decided to make this thread.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97101
This made me realise, CCP are doing it wrong.
Read it, all the explanation you need is there, in addition look at page 2 to see my idea in short.

Now, I was writing a little thread, it isnGÇÖt done yet, but it seems to fit perfectly with the new idea I got thanks to gbghg - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pet88sKPbMV7G4PqvgRySV1Df5kRyioMIaiSABFIwII/edit


The idea in short: Basic frames are the generalists, T1 suits, Assault and Logistics suits are the specialized, T2 suits.
Basic frame would be a mesh of the logi and assault.
No more standard/advanced/prototype, everything is prototype, there is just generalist and specialized stuff.
EVE started doing it (Generalist vs Specialist) after Dust began development, and it shows.
In EVE rookies have a use, in Dust they donGÇÖt.

I will write specific stats of all suits and the AR as an example for CCP on how it should be done.
Well, all suits and ARGÇÖs and modules from the Gallente, IGÇÖm not paid to do this and I donGÇÖt have unlimited time, writing Gallente medium frame and light weapons only would be quite a lot of work in on itself.

I am using Gallente because I am most familiar with the race.

T1 medium frame:
A mesh of Assault and Logistics suits, will gain equipment slot in exchange for a module slot and some other small downsides.

REMEMBER, EVERYTHING IN THIS THREAD IS AN EXAMPLE, AVOID DEBATING ABOUT SPECIFIC ITEM BALANCE, ONLY THE IDEA

Medium Frame suits:
Type-I: Something to do with optimal range
Type-II: Something to do with regeneration
Type-III: Something to do with survivability (eHP)
Type-IV: Something to do with entry level logistics
Type-V: Something to do with damage output of weapons

Why do all this????

So new players have a use, instead of waiting for months and months before they have proto gear so they let them into PC matches.
In EVE I can put players into a tackle frigate and... they're useful!

You might be onto something...

Yeah well, EWAR is coming Later(TM).

But even then, as long as the newbs have proto gear and they can shoot straight, they can do some damage, and this idea puts them into that situation.
Well, I can't make them aim straight, but at least gear won't be a problem

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of this. CoD doesn't have matchmaking, but the noob tube closes the gap between vets and newbies.

No noob tubes for Dust :\
Sure, it helps the newbies, but the vets can use it too, and believe me in the right hands it's a monster.

Vets won't use it because it's beneath them because it angers the gungame gods

Right.
Like the Cal Logi, Flaylocks, TAC AR's, LAV's etc' haven't been used in Dust?
When something like a district is at stake, people will use everything.
EVERYTHING

Make it an attachment only available on the militia AR and 1 shot per use. People can be welcome to use it, but it won't be the only viable tactic. Also, this is the second time I've derailed your topic lol. I should probably make my own instead of musing in yours.

Agreed. Tiercide is the new way forward.

All the arguments against this thread so far, to be honest, are superficial.

What changes, if this is implemented?
-No need for Academy, as it's there to shelter newbies from pubstomping temporarily.
-No need for matchmaking, which takes away from the 'sandbox' feel of New Eden
-No need for more bloody SP sinks every time new content comes out, because a few skills unlocks gear, and more skills can instead go to passive bonuses per level.
-Balances the game by closing the gap between those who have been here for ages and new players, whilst still allowing veterans to have the ability to 'specialise' into a role. You might say specialisation right now is good. Don't make me laugh. Right now you specialise into something that kills better by getting better gear. That's not specialisation. That's linear progression, and it sucks.

So, with these changes in place:

Academy can be removed, matchmaking isn't needed. Newbies can get straight into the real games without worrying about being instantly outclassed. Prototype gear is gone, pubstomping capacity is halved.

Less calls for respecs because now we have lots of gear unlocked with a few skills, new content can simply be thrown in with these skills, which therefore will lead to a growing importance of ISK.

ISK is a mercenary's lifeblood. People SHOULDN'T be able to simply farm a nest egg, unless they play very conservatively. But that's another discussion entirely. The point here is that less respec threads = good. There are too many of those bloody things.

Furthermore, NOW CCP can focus on the 'pressing issues' like balance and new content and building up gameplay mechanics because the core progression system ISN'T rotten to the core! They can balance items without fear that those who used them will cry because they don't have to waste too much SP going into another weapon. They can add new content without people crying that it's another SP sink for something that couldn't possibly be worth it, because it won't be an SP sink in the first place.

The Tiercide revolution is upon us, and there's no sitting on the fence.

Well, first off, I will explain why I decided to make this thread.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97101
This made me realise, CCP are doing it wrong.
Read it, all the explanation you need is there, in addition look at page 2 to see my idea in short.

Now, I was writing a little thread, it isnGÇÖt done yet, but it seems to fit perfectly with the new idea I got thanks to gbghg - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pet88sKPbMV7G4PqvgRySV1Df5kRyioMIaiSABFIwII/edit


The idea in short: Basic frames are the generalists, T1 suits, Assault and Logistics suits are the specialized, T2 suits.
Basic frame would be a mesh of the logi and assault.
No more standard/advanced/prototype, everything is prototype, there is just generalist and specialized stuff.
EVE started doing it (Generalist vs Specialist) after Dust began development, and it shows.
In EVE rookies have a use, in Dust they donGÇÖt.

I will write specific stats of all suits and the AR as an example for CCP on how it should be done.
Well, all suits and ARGÇÖs and modules from the Gallente, IGÇÖm not paid to do this and I donGÇÖt have unlimited time, writing Gallente medium frame and light weapons only would be quite a lot of work in on itself.

I am using Gallente because I am most familiar with the race.

T1 medium frame:
A mesh of Assault and Logistics suits, will gain equipment slot in exchange for a module slot and some other small downsides.

REMEMBER, EVERYTHING IN THIS THREAD IS AN EXAMPLE, AVOID DEBATING ABOUT SPECIFIC ITEM BALANCE, ONLY THE IDEA

Medium Frame suits:
Type-I: Something to do with optimal range
Type-II: Something to do with regeneration
Type-III: Something to do with survivability (eHP)
Type-IV: Something to do with entry level logistics
Type-V: Something to do with damage output of weapons

Agreed. Tiercide is the new way forward.

All the arguments against this thread so far, to be honest, are superficial.

What changes, if this is implemented?
-No need for Academy, as it's there to shelter newbies from pubstomping temporarily.
-No need for matchmaking, which takes away from the 'sandbox' feel of New Eden
-No need for more bloody SP sinks every time new content comes out, because a few skills unlocks gear, and more skills can instead go to passive bonuses per level.
-Balances the game by closing the gap between those who have been here for ages and new players, whilst still allowing veterans to have the ability to 'specialise' into a role. You might say specialisation right now is good. Don't make me laugh. Right now you specialise into something that kills better by getting better gear. That's not specialisation. That's linear progression, and it sucks.

So, with these changes in place:

Academy can be removed, matchmaking isn't needed. Newbies can get straight into the real games without worrying about being instantly outclassed. Prototype gear is gone, pubstomping capacity is halved.

Less calls for respecs because now we have lots of gear unlocked with a few skills, new content can simply be thrown in with these skills, which therefore will lead to a growing importance of ISK.

ISK is a mercenary's lifeblood. People SHOULDN'T be able to simply farm a nest egg, unless they play very conservatively. But that's another discussion entirely. The point here is that less respec threads = good. There are too many of those bloody things.

Furthermore, NOW CCP can focus on the 'pressing issues' like balance and new content and building up gameplay mechanics because the core progression system ISN'T rotten to the core! They can balance items without fear that those who used them will cry because they don't have to waste too much SP going into another weapon. They can add new content without people crying that it's another SP sink for something that couldn't possibly be worth it, because it won't be an SP sink in the first place.

The Tiercide revolution is upon us, and there's no sitting on the fence.

Also, would AR's be divided like Blaster Turrets? Compressed, Scattered, Stabilized?

Still tutorials would help

Weapons can be divided in as many ways as CCP feels, that's the beauty of it.

We'll have basic AR, with variations of that.
Then T2 ARs, which are basically specialisations of variants.
Then variants of the T2 specialisations too.



Agreed, but I doubt good in-game tutorials will come any time soon. Right now it's just a bunch of pop-up help screens that no FPS player has the patience to read.

It's a community effort right now. Corps like DUST Uni as well as some good YouTube vids on fitting, tactics, etc. should suffice for now. A nice guide here too: http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=The_Newberry%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy

Scattered Low accuracy high damage
Stabilized High accuracy and range standard damage higher PG/CPU use
Compressed Higher overheat I don't know the advantage though.

Checked, it's higher damage for Compressed.

What they need to do is bring back the old system where it was

Type I

Type II

A Series

B Series

vk.0

vk.1

Everyone used vk.1 because it was better for a slightly higher cost lol
Plus not everyone shield tanks.

Thats why there was a vk.0 for armor tankers...

vk.1 was plain better.

Maybe for people that liked shields. But You can throw some armor plates & damage mods and go 20+/0 back then. Anyone could say that the vk.1 was better..... By there prefrence of shields. Some people like armor.

+...ummm I think 4?

this will help alot, but it'll really need a full respec with all that added to be able to use the new system/skill tree.
this will probably fix alot of the imbalances and reduce SP sinks, but unfortunately will help FOTM chasers, but at the same time CCP could track what all spikes to help learn whats the FOTM,while at the same time it'll be possible for, lets say a scout to see the game through a heavies point of view, or the "FOTM" to have their opinion whether its OP or not.

It had more eHP total.

i agree with this idea. not the purposed statistics however.

Where do you think the stats are bad?

trying to keep it short, i dont want to get into a rant

I dont think there should be any drawbacks to using a specific suit. such as the -damage or -absolute range. the drawbacks will not necessarily drawbacks, but will be differences. just like in EVE, no ship really has a drawback... just a weakness to its counter or when being used outside its intended role, however since there are no actual drawbacks, one can still make a very outside the box fitting and surprise everyone by using it very effectively outside its intended roles.... in my opinion, a "direct drawback" will only hinder creativity

There is only one suit that with a minus and that's the range one.
I put -absolute because range is OP.

understandable. but i think that there could be other things that could be affected, less hp, slower, something... what if someone wanted to use that suit for something other than hybrid?

i could come up with many reasons why i am just highly opposed to a "debuff/direct drawback" other than that... i think some numbers could use tweaking...

but that isnt the point. im super tired. the point of this post is the general idea and i completely agree with like 90% of it. just a few number tweaks. no real point in discussing numbers too much not even knowing if CCP will even consider this

About the hybrid comment:
Gallente/Caldari use hybrid.
Minmatar use projectile.
Amarr use laser.

Each racial suit will get a bonus to the weapon type they use.

What if only some of the suit bonuses were geared specifically for racial weapons?

You could have a bunch of generic bonuses like the current Minny and Caldari assault bonus and then racially focussed ones like the Amarr and Gallente ones.

If you don't want to use the racial weapons you would still have options with the other dropsuits from that race and class.

I like this idea.

I don't want to loose the financial aspect of suit choice that we have at the moment though (even if it is a bit off, it was better in chromosome).

With tiericide the costs are also equalised. So there is no way to bring out your good stuff to crack a tough nut.

Can you think of a way to retain the cost decisions without resorting to vehicles or random loot?
Perhaps excessively expensive modules that provide an extra 5-10%? Or does this just defeat the purpose of tiericide....

meow of justice and valor

Bark of truth.

Tiericide is always a good thing.

*Licks Cat*

T1 are around standard/advanced price.
T2 are around proto price.

Okay... nice 10k for a T1 Medium and 60k for T2?

I reckon pricing should be based on how much we earn per contract. Find the average number of deaths (y), find the average ISK reward per contract (x), then make a fully fitted T1 suit worth x divided by y.

So dying more than average loses you ISK. Dying more than average in T2 suits will mean you lose ISK.

Then battles like PC and contracts that can be given for PvE missions (SoonGäó) and other things that EVE could contract mercenaries to do will become more important if their rewards are greater than that of public matches.

Make it more painful to our wallets to die, because right now it doesn't feel as if dying has enough of an impact.

So something maybe equivalent to, T1 you can lose up to 15-20 fully kitted out suits and still make a profit (not many people die 20 times in a match, at least the ones that aren't pubstomps).

For T2 maybe be able to lose 5-10 fully kitted suits (also not all suits cost the same). Don't want to make them so expensive you feel like you can't play with them without losing money, but you should play conservatively, or with a good support team. Right now, proto costs are something like, 1-2 fully kitted clone losses are a net loss. These numbers are for for normal pub matches, earning anywhere from 200K ISK and below to 300K ISK and above. Obviously, PC matches are different with MUCH greater rewards.

Side note, it'd be nice to be able to buy more/other things as you accumulate money, like installations to drop onto maps.

No wonder this game is so **** with clueless idiots like you talking to CCP - **** off back to obscurity you little ****

Tiercide was here
And The Bojo was content
Tiercide is good

Keep the levels for skills.
But I like the idea... Tanks won't be affected at all.

I support this.

Wolfman should read this

Bumping for a good, well thought out concept.

One thing though, just a suggestion, but you should probably update your post with different suits as and when you guys have them discussed, and presentation could do with a bit more work. Maybe work with gbghg on descriptions. Fittings (PG/CPU) numbers could also use some tweaking to account for slot changes.

Something like this:

*********
Type II suits are focused on native regeneration over raw hitpoints...blabla....

Gallente Type-II:
Gallente Medium Frame skill bonuses
+7% to armor repairer efficacy per level

Suit stats:
Module slot layout (H / L): 2 (-1) / 5 (+1)
Weapon slots (Heavy / Light / Sidearm): 0 / 1 / 1
Equipment slots: 2
Grenade slots: 1

Fittings (PG/CPU): 68 KW / 300 gF
Hit points (Shield / Armor): 102 / 192
Shield recharge (Rate / Delay / Depleted delay): 17.5hp / 7s / 10s
Armor Repair rate: 3 (+3) hp/second
Movement speed (Running / Sprinting): 4.8 / 6.8
Stamina (Total / recovery rate): 137.5 / 13.5/s

*********

This style of presentation is commonly seen in CCP Fozzie's posts in the EVE balancing threads, and seems to generally work well. The essentials are shown first, bonus, slot layout, fittings, followed by other stats (defensive or offensive). The changes from base are highlighted as well, and helps push discussion along as thel stats can be tweaked individually, and this template could be copied over for all variations.

My 2 cents.

I want!

like your idea, but what about the aure Weapons / Equipment etc.

Dust is F2P , EVE not

would be worth it to buy them after the change without making them P2W?

This is the only one of your ideas from the nexus that I like (no offense, just seems like some weird ideas, and would be really hard to balance for). However, I really like this one. Wait, let me say that again:


EDIT: After reading the entire thing, I noticed that you said that Logi should get a bonus towars scanners. Scanners are EWAR, and logi things don't do EWAR. Scouts (Gallente Scouts in particular) Should.

Message from Godin: you ass, you haven't rewrote anything -_-

Message from Godin: After rereading this, I would change the damage given on the Assault to a 25-50% faster reload imo.

25% would be meh, 50% would be ok.

So 2% per level fire rate and 10% per level reload time/

Then why the wall of numbers? Would have been better spent explaining why tiericide in dust is needed. Also, I like numbers, just only when used appropriately in a way that makes some amount of sense, rather than distracting from the point.

Concerns - Current system allows people to pay a premium for performance. This is not inherently a bad thing, and its certainly how it happens in EVE. Where in the new system will this have a place?

In the current system the power or edge you have over opponents is primarily better equipment. Lots of skills are solely about unlocks, and the inherent skill bonuses are minor at best. In your proposed system, where the equipment itself has less tiers, would having skill ranks themselves for their inherent bonuses be the most important differentiating factor? They would need to be much more powerful than current skill bonuses.

Sorry my initial post was rude, but people should be skeptical of jesus-feature-overhaul-ideas of core gameplay design. We certainly need to examine it more critically than "it was good for eve so its good for dust." Tiers in EVE were bad because they combined differing roles with increasing costs and increasing general performance. Here, with the exception of some weapon/equipment variants only being available at ADV/PRO level, a higher tier usually conforms to the exact same role.

Not a fan of having 5 versions of the gallente medium frame, either. You're taking customization that should be left to the module fittings and transplanting it unnecessarily to the suit choice.

Another random comment, in the current system the light/medium/heavy suits are too similar to scout/assault/sentinel suits. Hopefully that will change when CCP gets the suit bonuses sorted out.

I like this idea.

I don't want to loose the financial aspect of suit choice that we have at the moment though (even if it is a bit off, it was better in chromosome).

With tiericide the costs are also equalised. So there is no way to bring out your good stuff to crack a tough nut.

Can you think of a way to retain the cost decisions without resorting to vehicles or random loot?
Perhaps excessively expensive modules that provide an extra 5-10%? Or does this just defeat the purpose of tiericide....

This idea has some merit. While I may not agree with some of your numbers I think the general idea that every suit should have a distinct purpose rather than just better stats is good. Looking at your spreadsheet still gives me a migraine though so I'm going to go take an asprin and a cup of joe and try to think happy thoughts about red berries fresh out of academy being useful to pad my kdr, and think about all the blueberries acting as meat shields for both my bullets and the enemy ones as well.

Message from Godin: Godin likes