Why would you even keep standard armor plates in the game with these numbers?

Why would you even keep standard armor plates in the game with these numbers?

After looking over the stats again, the Ferroscale plates were a little too good over the Standard plates. I have reduced their HP bonus's accordingly.

I think you missed the point.
The reactives are too good - you just nerfed the ferroscales to a point where they would be even more useless than currently.

Reactive Armor Plates
Complex
- 160 HP
- 6% Speed Penalty
- 5 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 60 CPU
- 12 PG

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Last but not least, change Shield Regulators to a High Powered module.

What's wrong with the reactives? Elaborate please.

What's wrong with the reactives? Elaborate please.

They're too good in the sense that makes standard plates useless. Reactives should have less HP than std and more HP than ferroscale. Ferroscale should have more HP than shield extenders.

ferroscale shouldnt have more hp than shield extenders.... They both have no penalty using them.. So the HP buff should be pretty much the same or even lower. Besides, if the HP buff is huge, why would any shield tanker stop himself from using them ? It's free buff added to the shield extenders he already uses.

Reactive plates bring repping combined to buff. For that sole reason, they will be the plates bringing the lower hp buff. As it's been said by CCP already.

Regular plates with penalty have to be the biggest HP buff of all defense plating be it shield or armor for the sole reason they add a penalty when using them.

But to balance shield and armor, ferroscale wont be enough. there need to be a complete overhaul of the armor penalty and regen modules as it's been discusses widely in a feedback section thread.

=> Speed penalty shouldnt apply on base movement as there arent no modules to compensate
=> Shield should have a penalty as well, just as it is in eve. (radar signature or bigger hitbox)
=> Some role or race base bonuses need to lower those drawbacks.
=> Better repping modules for armor
=> Etc..

Anyway, nice attempt but do check existing feedback.

ferroscale shouldnt have more hp than shield extenders.... They both have no penalty using them.. So the HP buff should be pretty much the same or even lower. Besides, if the HP buff is huge, why would any shield tanker stop himself from using them ? It's free buff added to the shield extenders he already uses.

Reactive plates bring repping combined to buff. For that sole reason, they will be the plates bringing the lower hp buff. As it's been said by CCP already.

Regular plates with penalty have to be the biggest HP buff of all defense plating be it shield or armor for the sole reason they add a penalty when using them.

But to balance shield and armor, ferroscale wont be enough. there need to be a complete overhaul of the armor penalty and regen modules as it's been discusses widely in a feedback section thread.

=> Speed penalty shouldnt apply on base movement as there arent no modules to compensate
=> Shield should have a penalty as well, just as it is in eve. (radar signature or bigger hitbox)
=> Some role or race base bonuses need to lower those drawbacks.
=> Better repping modules for armor
=> Etc..

Anyway, nice attempt but do check existing feedback.

ferroscale shouldnt have more hp than shield extenders.... They both have no penalty using them.. So the HP buff should be pretty much the same or even lower. Besides, if the HP buff is huge, why would any shield tanker stop himself from using them ? It's free buff added to the shield extenders he already uses.

Reactive plates bring repping combined to buff. For that sole reason, they will be the plates bringing the lower hp buff. As it's been said by CCP already.

Regular plates with penalty have to be the biggest HP buff of all defense plating be it shield or armor for the sole reason they add a penalty when using them.

But to balance shield and armor, ferroscale wont be enough. there need to be a complete overhaul of the armor penalty and regen modules as it's been discusses widely in a feedback section thread.

=> Speed penalty shouldnt apply on base movement as there arent no modules to compensate
=> Shield should have a penalty as well, just as it is in eve. (radar signature or bigger hitbox)
=> Some role or race base bonuses need to lower those drawbacks.
=> Better repping modules for armor
=> Etc..

Anyway, nice attempt but do check existing feedback.

ferroscale shouldnt have more hp than shield extenders.... They both have no penalty using them.. So the HP buff should be pretty much the same or even lower. Besides, if the HP buff is huge, why would any shield tanker stop himself from using them ? It's free buff added to the shield extenders he already uses.

Reactive plates bring repping combined to buff. For that sole reason, they will be the plates bringing the lower hp buff. As it's been said by CCP already.

Regular plates with penalty have to be the biggest HP buff of all defense plating be it shield or armor for the sole reason they add a penalty when using them.

Anyway, nice attempt but do check existing feedback.

Shield regen is based on suit... barring the inclusion of other modules.

That said, everyone is missing the part where armor can be repaired. With a rep tool. I'm not certain why this is being ignored. It's a constant effect, works a LOT faster... and even gives out points to the logi's (who are hurting, since they can't get revives often anymore.)

Seems like everyone is trying to balance Armor vs Shields on a 1 on 1 basis. In my experience, those situations are rather rare. How about we consider how these things play out in a squad? Who, as logis may be using a mix of all of these modules.

3x reactive plates, 3x Complex shields, a shield regulator and a shield regenerator.

Combine that with a heavy (or commando) with the logi's rep tool attached to him, and the logi is gonna take a lot longer to put down. Meaning the heavy is gonna be alive (and mostly unhurt) for a lot longer.

Shield regen is based on suit... barring the inclusion of other modules.

That said, everyone is missing the part where armor can be repaired. With a rep tool. I'm not certain why this is being ignored. It's a constant effect, works a LOT faster... and even gives out points to the logi's (who are hurting, since they can't get revives often anymore.)

Seems like everyone is trying to balance Armor vs Shields on a 1 on 1 basis. In my experience, those situations are rather rare. How about we consider how these things play out in a squad? Who, as logis may be using a mix of all of these modules.

3x reactive plates, 3x Complex shields, a shield regulator and a shield regenerator.

Combine that with a heavy (or commando) with the logi's rep tool attached to him, and the logi is gonna take a lot longer to put down. Meaning the heavy is gonna be alive (and mostly unhurt) for a lot longer.

OMFG what part about armor tanking needing an entire other person for a marginal, and some would say non-existent, advantage seems like balance to you?

Why not have us both tank shields and shoot at the same time while a repair logi barely manages to keep up with 10% of the DPS of two dudes shooting his superslow patient's face off...

Good post except for two things. First off, your version of the reactive plates would be incredibly overpowered. Secondly, shield regulators are low slots because shield have three distinct module types and putting them all in high slots would severely gimp shield tanking.

Good post except for two things. First off, your version of the reactive plates would be incredibly overpowered. Secondly, shield regulators are low slots because shield have three distinct module types and putting them all in high slots would severely gimp shield tanking.

CCP has their values all screwed up. A Speed decrease in exchange for passive reps and an HP buff are exactly what armor tanking should be. You have a significantly higher amount of HP than that of a shield tanker but you're a lot slower.

That said, everyone is missing the part where armor can be repaired. With a rep tool. I'm not certain why this is being ignored. It's a constant effect, works a LOT faster... and even gives out points to the logi's (who are hurting, since they can't get revives often anymore.)

Thanks.

As for the shield regulators, I disagree. Shield tankers don't need to use one of their slots for passive regen, having a module that increases the rate of that regen in the lows is essentially a free shield extender. On top of that it would be no different than what Armor tankers endure, having all armor oriented modules in lows.

Armor tankers would have to give up a potential armor slot in order to fit a shield regulator. A shield tanker would have to sacrifice nothing to fit an Armor repairer.

ferroscale shouldnt have more hp than shield extenders.... They both have no penalty using them.. So the HP buff should be pretty much the same or even lower. Besides, if the HP buff is huge, why would any shield tanker stop himself from using them ? It's free buff added to the shield extenders he already uses.

Reactive plates bring repping combined to buff. For that sole reason, they will be the plates bringing the lower hp buff. As it's been said by CCP already.

Regular plates with penalty have to be the biggest HP buff of all defense plating be it shield or armor for the sole reason they add a penalty when using them.

But to balance shield and armor, ferroscale wont be enough. there need to be a complete overhaul of the armor penalty and regen modules as it's been discusses widely in a feedback section thread.

=> Speed penalty shouldnt apply on base movement as there arent no modules to compensate
=> Shield should have a penalty as well, just as it is in eve. (radar signature or bigger hitbox)
=> Some role or race base bonuses need to lower those drawbacks.
=> Better repping modules for armor
=> Etc..

Anyway, nice attempt but do check existing feedback.

I hope I get a skill respec for that, cuz that would totally kill my build

why not just make the armor repair skill fix your armor even if you dont use the mods. bump the skills repair rate up a bit an with the use of an armor repair it will refill faster. but not to the point that a logi is not of any use. this adds a bit more balance to shield an armor . as now armor can regen just like shields but less than half as fast without a repair mod. an with a mod about half as fast if its the best repair mod. the number of mods used effect how fast . so just 1 mod wont get you shield refill rate but if you could fit it 2 or 3 might.

Uh no, That would just be another free benefit to shield tankers/

Man this guy is really butthurt about this whole thing. Armor is great paired with a logi. Shield is faster and more prone for a solo-type gameplay. Different tanking accommodates to different play styles. Not every build is meant to wreak havoc like some juggernaut on the battlefield. Ive been utterly destroyed by heavies running with a logi multiple times. I've read through your "threadnaught" that you keep boasting about. The only thing armor needs is a reduced movement speed penalty.

At the same time, one shouldn't have to be symbiotically tethered to a logi by an electronic umbilical cord to be effective on the battlefield.

not unless the shield tankers were similarly gimped

Standard armor Plates are just that, standard. They are easily accessible with only a low Armor Plating level requirement, they provide a decent HP bonus at a low CPU and PG cost but in exchange they suffer from movement penalties.

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Reactive Armor Plates

Requirements: Armor Plating Level V, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III, Armor Repair Systems Level I

Basic:
- 100 HP
- 3% Speed penalty
- 2 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 30 CPU
- 5 PG

Enhanced
- 130 HP
- 5% Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 45 CPU
- 9 PG

Complex
- 165 HP
- 6% Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 60 CPU
- 12 PG

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Last but not least, change Shield Regulators to a High Powered module.

Baby you can tell me about armor plates any day, stop wasting your time on these fools.

You and me can get a small little district together, raise some clones, sell them for ISK when they are all grown up

What do you say princess?

Just straight buffing armor plates does nothing really. Cause caldari suits would just fit them too and we're back to square one.

Using these stats I've come up with a build using this fitting tool

Caldari Logistics CK.0:

CPU: 480 / 487
PG: 87 / 97
Shields: 390
Armor: 647
Total HP: 1,037
Armor Repair Rate: 11hp/s
Speed Penalty: 16%

High Slots:
1x Complex Shield Extender
1 x Complex Shield Regulator(High Slot)
3 x Enhanced Shield extenders

Low Slots:
2 x Complex Reactive Plates
1 x Complex Standard Plate
1 x Complex ferroscale Plate

Weapon: Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle


Now, granted that was using the most OP suit in the game and using all CPU, PG, Shield, & Armor Related skills up to level 5.

I actually like the stats you've suggested, they might need a slight reduction here and there but I don't think it breaks the game and the speed penalty keeps things pretty balanced.

You just made the Caldari Logistics a armor tank, this is not how it should be.

No.

Hello CCP and all who view this thread. I have taken the last 3 hours to carefully study and anaylyze everything that between the shield and armor debate. After tons of research between the positives and negatives of shields vs armor and examining the stats of the soon to come Reactive and Ferroscale armor plates I have come to this conclusion.

The entire Armor skill tree and modules are imbalanced in comparison to that of shields. the Shields tree and it's modules are already completely balanced. Every suit already comes with the built in ability to passively Regen shields and hence every suit is suitable to shield tank. However armor tanking requires the use of other modules such as Kinetic Catelizers to mitigate the speed penalty or Armor Reppers to achieve the regen ability similar to that of shields.

With the addition of the new Ferroscale and Reactive armor plates, it is evident that you balanced these modules in accordance to that of the already existing Armor modules. This is where your problem lies, no single module will be able to balance Armor and shields to a leveled playing field. You must completely Retweak the whole entire skill tree.

I have already done the work for you. Simply implement the skill changes and change the current values to the ones below.

Your welcome


Standard Armor Plates

Requirements: Armor Plating Level I

Basic
- 75 HP
- 2% Speed Penalty
- 10 CPU
- 1 PG

Enhanced
- 100 HP
- 3% Speed Penalty
- 20 CPU
- 3 PG

Complex
- 125 HP
- 4% Speed Penalty
- 30 CPU
- 6 PG

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Ferroscale Armor Plates

Requirements: Armor Plating Level III, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III

Basic:
- 40 HP
- No speed penalty
- 16 CPU
- 4 PG

Enhanced
- 60 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 30 CPU
- 8 PG

Complex
- 80 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 42 CPU
- 12 PG

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Reactive Armor Plates

Requirements: Armor Plating Level V, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III, Armor Repair Systems Level I

Basic:
- 100 HP
- 3% Speed penalty
- 2 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 30 CPU
- 5 PG

Enhanced
- 130 HP
- 5% Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 45 CPU
- 9 PG

Complex
- 165 HP
- 6% Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 60 CPU
- 12 PG

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Last but not least, change Shield Regulators to a High Powered module.

Added your model to the spreadsheet some glaring errors here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdGdrMFA0NW1uOU9ueUQ3YmtLRFVqcHc#gid=0

And did a pretty bad job of it at that. Complex Shield Extenders are your first priority, of course. But beyond that, 2 Complex Reactives(2 Proto modules) is demonstrably worse than 1 Enhanced Plate and 1 Complex Repper(1 Proto and 1 Adv module). 'Cause CCP.

Iron wolf Saber has created a detailed Spreadsheet containing Mine and His Armor Plate Models, you can make a copy of this spreadsheet and edit it with your own proposed values. - IWS Armor Plate Spreadsheet