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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
253
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Posted - 2013.06.11 21:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello CCP and all who view this thread. I have taken the last 3 hours to carefully study and anaylyze everything that between the shield and armor debate. After tons of research between the positives and negatives of shields vs armor and examining the stats of the soon to come Reactive and Ferroscale armor plates I have come to this conclusion.
The entire Armor skill tree and modules are imbalanced in comparison to that of shields. the Shields tree and it's modules are already completely balanced. Every suit already comes with the built in ability to passively Regen shields and hence every suit is suitable to shield tank. However armor tanking requires the use of other modules such as Kinetic Catelizers to mitigate the speed penalty or Armor Reppers to achieve the regen ability similar to that of shields.
With the addition of the new Ferroscale and Reactive armor plates, it is evident that you balanced these modules in accordance to that of the already existing Armor modules. This is where your problem lies, no single module will be able to balance Armor and shields to a leveled playing field. You must completely Retweak the whole entire skill tree.
I have already done the work for you. Simply implement the skill changes and change the current values to the ones below.
Your welcome
Standard Armor Plates
Requirements: Armor Plating Level I
Basic
- 75 HP
- 2% Speed Penalty
- 10 CPU
- 1 PG
Enhanced
- 100 HP
- 4% Speed Penalty
- 20 CPU
- 3 PG
Complex
- 125 HP
- 6% Speed Penalty
- 30 CPU
- 6 PG
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ferroscale Armor Plates
Requirements: Armor Plating Level III, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III
Basic:
- 40 HP
- No speed penalty
- 6 CPU
- 4 PG
Enhanced
- 60 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 12 CPU
- 8 PG
Complex
- 80 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 18 CPU
- 12 PG
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Reactive Armor Plates
Requirements: Armor Plating Level V, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III
Basic:
- 100 HP
- 3% Speed penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 25 CPU
- 5 PG
Enhanced
- 130 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 45 CPU
- 9 PG
Complex
- 160 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 60 CPU
- 12 PG
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Last but not least, change Shield Regulators to a High Powered module. |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
254
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 22:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Knarf Black wrote:Why would you even keep standard armor plates in the game with these numbers?
Standard armor Plates are just that, standard. They are easily accessible with only a low Armor Plating level requirement, they provide a decent HP bonus at a low CPU and PG cost but in exchange they suffer from movement penalties. |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
254
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 22:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Knarf Black wrote:Why would you even keep standard armor plates in the game with these numbers?
After looking over the stats again, the Ferroscale plates were a little too good over the Standard plates. I have reduced their HP bonus's accordingly. |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
254
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 22:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Alina Heart wrote:Knarf Black wrote:Why would you even keep standard armor plates in the game with these numbers? After looking over the stats again, the Ferroscale plates were a little too good over the Standard plates. I have reduced their HP bonus's accordingly. I think you missed the point. The reactives are too good - you just nerfed the ferroscales to a point where they would be even more useless than currently.
What's wrong with the reactives? Elaborate please.
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Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
254
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 22:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
WyrmHero1945 wrote:Alina Heart wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Alina Heart wrote:Knarf Black wrote:Why would you even keep standard armor plates in the game with these numbers? After looking over the stats again, the Ferroscale plates were a little too good over the Standard plates. I have reduced their HP bonus's accordingly. I think you missed the point. The reactives are too good - you just nerfed the ferroscales to a point where they would be even more useless than currently. What's wrong with the reactives? Elaborate please. They're too good in the sense that makes standard plates useless. Reactives should have less HP than std and more HP than ferroscale. Ferroscale should have more HP than shield extenders.
That's how this game works, look at the skill requirements to get those Reactive plates, I didn't even put in ISK values. It's no different than Unlocking the duvolle or Allotek assault rifles. Once unlocked you essentially make the lower gear useless.
I'm failing to understand how my reactive armor plates are too good... |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
255
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 22:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:ferroscale shouldnt have more hp than shield extenders.... They both have no penalty using them.. So the HP buff should be pretty much the same or even lower. Besides, if the HP buff is huge, why would any shield tanker stop himself from using them ? It's free buff added to the shield extenders he already uses.
What's stopping them from doing that now?
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
Reactive plates bring repping combined to buff. For that sole reason, they will be the plates bringing the lower hp buff. As it's been said by CCP already.
CCP has their values all screwed up. A Speed decrease in exchange for passive reps and an HP buff are exactly what armor tanking should be. You have a significantly higher amount of HP than that of a shield tanker but you're a lot slower.
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
Regular plates with penalty have to be the biggest HP buff of all defense plating be it shield or armor for the sole reason they add a penalty when using them.
The standards plates with my stats still serve a purpose, they are higher in HP than the ones we have currently and the speed reduction has been reduced. They are very low on CPU and PG cost. hence why they are called "Standard" plates. They can be unlocked early on and provide a good addition to HP and are more suitable for CPU/PG strained suits.
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
Anyway, nice attempt but do check existing feedback.
I do and have. This thread is my suggestion. |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
255
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 23:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
IamI3rian wrote:Shield regen is based on suit... barring the inclusion of other modules.
That said, everyone is missing the part where armor can be repaired. With a rep tool. I'm not certain why this is being ignored. It's a constant effect, works a LOT faster... and even gives out points to the logi's (who are hurting, since they can't get revives often anymore.)
Seems like everyone is trying to balance Armor vs Shields on a 1 on 1 basis. In my experience, those situations are rather rare. How about we consider how these things play out in a squad? Who, as logis may be using a mix of all of these modules.
3x reactive plates, 3x Complex shields, a shield regulator and a shield regenerator.
Combine that with a heavy (or commando) with the logi's rep tool attached to him, and the logi is gonna take a lot longer to put down. Meaning the heavy is gonna be alive (and mostly unhurt) for a lot longer.
If that situation were to ever happen then so be it, if anything it reinforces the role of a heavy. With an 18% movement penalty no heavy is going to be running around the map with 2 logi's behind him thinking he's god mode. With the short range of the HMG + The HUGE speed penalty the only time that situation would happen is if he sitting in one vinicity protecting a point. And Honestly that would be amazing to see that kind of thing in Dust. I support that.
Also no suit in this game would be able to run 3 or 4 Reactive plates with my stats and have an effective build. |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
255
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 23:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mother Facker wrote:Good post except for two things. First off, your version of the reactive plates would be incredibly overpowered. Secondly, shield regulators are low slots because shield have three distinct module types and putting them all in high slots would severely gimp shield tanking.
Thanks.
As for the shield regulators, I disagree. Shield tankers don't need to use one of their slots for passive regen, having a module that increases the rate of that regen in the lows is essentially a free shield extender. On top of that it would be no different than what Armor tankers endure, having all armor oriented modules in lows.
Armor tankers would have to give up a potential armor slot in order to fit a shield regulator. A shield tanker would have to sacrifice nothing to fit an Armor repairer. |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
257
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Posted - 2013.06.11 23:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Most of you have suggested that stats for my reactive armor plates are too good. After looking over the stats and in comparison to the Standard plate I agree they were a bit too good.
I've made the following changes and updated OP, I would like to know if the Reactive plates are now more in tune to the rest of the armor modules.
- Decreased speed penalty by 1% on each tier of standard armor plates
- Decreased Armor Repair Rate of complex Reactive plates from 5% to 3%
- Increased Hp of Complex reactive armor plates from 160 to 165
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Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
259
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Posted - 2013.06.12 02:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Can I get anyone from CCP to express their thoughts on my suggestions? I really think this could work. |
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Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
263
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Posted - 2013.06.12 05:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
TERMINALANCE wrote:Alina Heart wrote:Knarf Black wrote:Why would you even keep standard armor plates in the game with these numbers? Standard armor Plates are just that, standard. They are easily accessible with only a low Armor Plating level requirement, they provide a decent HP bonus at a low CPU and PG cost but in exchange they suffer from movement penalties. Baby you can tell me about armor plates any day, stop wasting your time on these fools. You and me can get a small little district together, raise some clones, sell them for ISK when they are all grown up  What do you say princess? 
No.  |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
263
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 05:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Just straight buffing armor plates does nothing really. Cause caldari suits would just fit them too and we're back to square one.
Right now we're mostly worrying about just fixing Armor, the armor plates we have now and the proposed armor plates that CCP plans to implement with the Ferroscales and Reactives are horrible for armor tankers.
The post I have put up is how to Fix armor. |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
267
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Updated OP With minor changes to CPU and Grid. Reduced EHP on Reactive plates slightly.
Awesome spreadsheet, it's very useful to actually the exact numbers. However I could stare at that spreadsheet all day and still not know what your thoughts are. As well, I don't think any spreadsheet can solely determine if something this complex is balanced or not.
After looking at your model it's almost the exact opposite of mine, you've lowered all the values significantly. Your Ferroscale plates are decent but your reactive plates are now just the same as a shield extenders with an unecessary speed penalty. Your standard plates suffer even more taxing speed penalties than reactive plates even though even though they don't have the added benefit of a passive regen.
Granted, you do have less CPU & PG requirements but those were never a problem to begin with. I see armor as being able to be a true TANK. You should have huge EHP rating at the cost of that you will be slow. The speed penalty should not be so much as it is now, but not so minuscule either that armor tanking becomes viable for most suits.
Now your thoughts on mine please. All constructive criticism. Also, added your spreadsheet to the OP  |
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