DUST Search - [CCP] Quick and Easy How to Fix Armor

Alina Heart wrote:

Hello CCP and all who view this thread. I have taken the last 3 hours to carefully study and anaylyze everything that between the shield and armor debate. After tons of research between the positives and negatives of shields vs armor and examining the stats of the soon to come Reactive and Ferroscale armor plates I have come to this conclusion.

The entire Armor skill tree and modules are imbalanced in comparison to that of shields. the Shields tree and it's modules are already completely balanced. Every suit already comes with the built in ability to passively Regen shields and hence every suit is suitable to shield tank. However armor tanking requires the use of other modules such as Kinetic Catelizers to mitigate the speed penalty or Armor Reppers to achieve the regen ability similar to that of shields.

With the addition of the new Ferroscale and Reactive armor plates, it is evident that you balanced these modules in accordance to that of the already existing Armor modules. This is where your problem lies, no single module will be able to balance Armor and shields to a leveled playing field. You must completely Retweak the whole entire skill tree.

I have already done the work for you. Simply implement the skill changes and change the current values to the ones below.

Your welcome

Standard Armor Plates

Requirements: Armor Plating Level I

Basic
- 75 HP
- 2% Speed Penalty
- 10 CPU
- 1 PG

Enhanced
- 100 HP
- 3% Speed Penalty
- 20 CPU
- 3 PG

Complex
- 125 HP
- 4% Speed Penalty
- 30 CPU
- 6 PG

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ferroscale Armor Plates

Requirements: Armor Plating Level III, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III

Basic:
- 40 HP
- No speed penalty
- 16 CPU
- 4 PG

Enhanced
- 60 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 30 CPU
- 8 PG

Complex
- 80 HP
- No Speed Penalty
- 42 CPU
- 12 PG

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Reactive Armor Plates

Requirements: Armor Plating Level V, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III, Armor Repair Systems Level I

Basic:
- 100 HP
- 3% Speed penalty
- 2 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 30 CPU
- 5 PG

Enhanced
- 130 HP
- 5% Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 45 CPU
- 9 PG

Complex
- 165 HP
- 6% Speed Penalty
- 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate
- 60 CPU
- 12 PG

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Last but not least, change Shield Regulators to a High Powered module.

Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Zatara Rought TeamPlayers EoN. 201	Posted - 2013.06.12 09:39:00 - [61] - Quote Alina Heart wrote: Hello CCP and all who view this thread. I have taken the last 3 hours to carefully study and anaylyze everything that between the shield and armor debate. After tons of research between the positives and negatives of shields vs armor and examining the stats of the soon to come Reactive and Ferroscale armor plates I have come to this conclusion. The entire Armor skill tree and modules are imbalanced in comparison to that of shields. the Shields tree and it's modules are already completely balanced. Every suit already comes with the built in ability to passively Regen shields and hence every suit is suitable to shield tank. However armor tanking requires the use of other modules such as Kinetic Catelizers to mitigate the speed penalty or Armor Reppers to achieve the regen ability similar to that of shields. With the addition of the new Ferroscale and Reactive armor plates, it is evident that you balanced these modules in accordance to that of the already existing Armor modules. This is where your problem lies, no single module will be able to balance Armor and shields to a leveled playing field. You must completely Retweak the whole entire skill tree. I have already done the work for you. Simply implement the skill changes and change the current values to the ones below. Your welcome Standard Armor Plates Requirements: Armor Plating Level I Basic - 75 HP - 2% Speed Penalty - 10 CPU - 1 PG Enhanced - 100 HP - 3% Speed Penalty - 20 CPU - 3 PG Complex - 125 HP - 4% Speed Penalty - 30 CPU - 6 PG - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ferroscale Armor Plates Requirements: Armor Plating Level III, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III Basic: - 40 HP - No speed penalty - 16 CPU - 4 PG Enhanced - 60 HP - No Speed Penalty - 30 CPU - 8 PG Complex - 80 HP - No Speed Penalty - 42 CPU - 12 PG - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reactive Armor Plates Requirements: Armor Plating Level V, Dropsuit Armor Upgrades Level III, Armor Repair Systems Level I Basic: - 100 HP - 3% Speed penalty - 2 HP/s Armor Repair Rate - 30 CPU - 5 PG Enhanced - 130 HP - 5% Speed Penalty - 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate - 45 CPU - 9 PG Complex - 165 HP - 6% Speed Penalty - 3 HP/s Armor Repair Rate - 60 CPU - 12 PG - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Last but not least, change Shield Regulators to a High Powered module. I'm going to bed...I'll deal with this attempt later.

CCP Eterne C C P C C P Alliance 1936	Posted - 2013.06.12 10:23:00 - [62] - Quote Gonna move this to Feedback/Requests for the time being.

Alina Heart DIOS EX. 267	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:09:00 - [63] - Quote Updated OP With minor changes to CPU and Grid. Reduced EHP on Reactive plates slightly. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Added your model to the spreadsheet some glaring errors here. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdGdrMFA0NW1uOU9ueUQ3YmtLRFVqcHc#gid=0 Awesome spreadsheet, it's very useful to actually the exact numbers. However I could stare at that spreadsheet all day and still not know what your thoughts are. As well, I don't think any spreadsheet can solely determine if something this complex is balanced or not. After looking at your model it's almost the exact opposite of mine, you've lowered all the values significantly. Your Ferroscale plates are decent but your reactive plates are now just the same as a shield extenders with an unecessary speed penalty. Your standard plates suffer even more taxing speed penalties than reactive plates even though even though they don't have the added benefit of a passive regen. Granted, you do have less CPU & PG requirements but those were never a problem to begin with. I see armor as being able to be a true TANK. You should have huge EHP rating at the cost of that you will be slow. The speed penalty should not be so much as it is now, but not so minuscule either that armor tanking becomes viable for most suits. Now your thoughts on mine please. All constructive criticism. Also, added your spreadsheet to the OP
ISuperstar DIOS X. II 77	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:16:00 - [64] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: ISuperstar wrote: Using these stats I've come up with a build using this fitting tool Caldari Logistics CK.0: CPU: 480 / 487 PG: 87 / 97 Shields: 390 Armor: 647 Total HP: 1,037 Armor Repair Rate: 11hp/s Speed Penalty: 16% High Slots: 1x Complex Shield Extender 1 x Complex Shield Regulator(High Slot) 3 x Enhanced Shield extenders Low Slots: 2 x Complex Reactive Plates 1 x Complex Standard Plate 1 x Complex ferroscale Plate Weapon: Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Now, granted that was using the most OP suit in the game and using all CPU, PG, Shield, & Armor Related skills up to level 5. I actually like the stats you've suggested, they might need a slight reduction here and there but I don't think it breaks the game and the speed penalty keeps things pretty balanced. You just made the Caldari Logistics a armor tank, this is not how it should be. And did a pretty bad job of it at that. Complex Shield Extenders are your first priority, of course. But beyond that, 2 Complex Reactives(2 Proto modules) is demonstrably worse than 1 Enhanced Plate and 1 Complex Repper(1 Proto and 1 Adv module). 'Cause CCP. I was simply seeing just how far one could possible tank using the best suit and using the proposed module stats. This isn't a "What's the best build for "X" suit" Thread...
Crims0n Viper Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 51	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:40:00 - [65] - Quote [quote=Alina Heart] Quote: Iron wolf Saber has created a detailed Spreadsheet containing Mine and His Armor Plate Models, you can make a copy of this spreadsheet and edit it with your own proposed values. - IWS Armor Plate Spreadsheet Ok, your new numbers look solid now. Reactive plates should be the high end top tier plates that every armor tanker wants and should unlock. At the same time Reactive plates aren't soo good that they completely overshadow the usefulness of Ferroscale and standard armor plates. Armor tankers should have a higher EHP than shield tankers due to having the speed penalty and no passive regen. On top of that armor has less resistance to most of the weapons in the game.
Meeko Fent Mercenary incorperated 72	Posted - 2013.06.16 01:01:00 - [66] - Quote On way to Fix Armor Tanking is to Fix the Bonuses for suits. Gallante Suits should get a Passive Regen Bonus, And Amarr Suits should get a Armor Max HP bonus. Reconfigure the Low Slots so the Amarr can Armor Tank as Opposed to Omni Tank That Is my only opinion on armor Tanking due to me Being Windari. And any self respecting Windari Shield Tanks
Villanor Aquarius Cygnus Tactical Operations 97	Posted - 2013.06.23 21:04:00 - [67] - Quote The very concept behind armor and shield tanking has always been that Shield modules that add hitpoints increase signature radius and shields have faster HP regeneration. Armor has always been more raw hitpoints and an agility/speed negative. The reps for armor are also much more efficient. In EVE you get more HP per capacitor with Armor reps while in Dust this is accomplished by having no delay with when Armor reps take effect. Armor is very effective in groups as you can take mountains of HP and rely on a logi bro to repair you in between fights or you can stack all repairers and result in repair rates easily in excess of 12hp/s that has no delay.
The dark cloud Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1543	Posted - 2013.06.23 21:28:00 - [68] - Quote In my opinion armor reps itself needs a major buff to the reapair rate. Most people prefer shield not due to the better mobility. Its because their shields are getting so much faster back up compared to armor tanked suits. Very big downside is aswell armor takes 30% extra damage from regular grenades. So here is something for you to consider: locus grenade: armor damage: 520HP shield damage: 280HP M1 locus grenade: armor damage: 650 HP shield damage: 350 HP Core locus grenade: armor damage: 780 HP shield damage: 420 HP this is just stupid. You move slower, have less HP regeneration and take additional damage from grenades and other explosives. A caldari logi will surive every time a core locus grenade while the gallente logi dies in a single hit. Sure you can come now with the argument that flux grenades are capable in taking out all shields. Sure but flux grenades DONT kill you. 99% of the time the shield guy just runs off cause he has BETTER mobility. In my opinion flux grenades should have the opposite effect of that from regular grenades. 30% additional damage vs shields and 30% less damage vs armor. If you dont get it here is a simple explanaiton: FLUX GRENADES SHOULD BE AIBLE TO KILL. To make them balanced bring down the max damage to that of regular grenades (400-500-600). And introduce a new type of AV grenade that does the same homing function but instead has the flux capability but only explodes with contact to a vehicle (like AV nades).


Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page