DUST Search - PC is a Failure: Can players make it fun some how?

Gregor stormwalker wrote:

Kain Spero wrote:

Gregor stormwalker wrote:

Vrain Matari wrote:

The truth is, we don't know what PC is really like.

There is structure and strategy built into the rules, but the Genpack is bypassing the intended design and preventing us from having a much more interesting game experience.

Without the Genpack local politics would be more important. Without the Genpack corps would stand a better chance of establishing and holding a home base.

Without the Genpack diplomatic efforts with corps and alliances distant from your own space would become more important, since pressure on war targets would have to be applied locally.

We need a different mechanism for allowing corps to get into PC.

And this is a reminder of an old lesson our Devs need to keep in mind: You cannot balance with ISK. Ever. The deterrent to Genpack use was supposed to be cost. That 80 million ISK deterrent was not effective. Once we're coupled to EVE, things will be worse.

started a topic on this in feedback/requests

remove clone packs for corps with districts

there are othere idea out there and would be intrested in everyones views

I'd be fine with removing clone packs for corps who own districts, but you need a way to by a 300 clone gen pack and I think move forward with the idea of pressing attacks (have multiple fights on the same day for the same district).

I am not sure about the pressing the attack mechanic but im open to it with restrictions maybe limit it to 1 extra attack and only if the attackers still have over 150 clones this would also then encourage attacking with more than minimum loose numbers. with this in place 300 clone starter pack would have there places too,

I would really appreciate your thought in this topic on the feedback/requests section as there would be economic ramification that i know little about because clone profits would no longer be used for clone packs it would be for equipping your mercs so would probably have to be lowered

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Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1603	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:15:00 - [151] - Quote I'll stop by the thread and give a ready through. I think if pressing attacks was added then a cool down feature for successfully defending would need to be implemented as well. The way I see it if you defend an attack the attacking force can re-attack but instead of the normal less that 24 hour window it would be pushed back to a 48 hour window to give the defenders breathing room from fending off the last attack.
VEXation Gunn Imperfects Negative-Feedback 244	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:22:00 - [152] - Quote Gregor stormwalker wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Gregor stormwalker wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: The truth is, we don't know what PC is really like. There is structure and strategy built into the rules, but the Genpack is bypassing the intended design and preventing us from having a much more interesting game experience. Without the Genpack local politics would be more important. Without the Genpack corps would stand a better chance of establishing and holding a home base. Without the Genpack diplomatic efforts with corps and alliances distant from your own space would become more important, since pressure on war targets would have to be applied locally. We need a different mechanism for allowing corps to get into PC. And this is a reminder of an old lesson our Devs need to keep in mind: You cannot balance with ISK. Ever. The deterrent to Genpack use was supposed to be cost. That 80 million ISK deterrent was not effective. Once we're coupled to EVE, things will be worse. started a topic on this in feedback/requests remove clone packs for corps with districts there are othere idea out there and would be intrested in everyones views I'd be fine with removing clone packs for corps who own districts, but you need a way to by a 300 clone gen pack and I think move forward with the idea of pressing attacks (have multiple fights on the same day for the same district). I am not sure about the pressing the attack mechanic but im open to it with restrictions maybe limit it to 1 extra attack and only if the attackers still have over 150 clones this would also then encourage attacking with more than minimum loose numbers. with this in place 300 clone starter pack would have there places too, I would really appreciate your thought in this topic on the feedback/requests section as there would be economic ramification that i know little about because clone profits would no longer be used for clone packs it would be for equipping your mercs so would probably have to be lowered buying clones packs should not be restricted what so ever. That said, PC as a general design is bad. I said this 3 months ago and ccp just adjusted it a bit. The design favors groups just sitting on districts and as we said too once everyone fights for a bit people will be content with isk farming. CCP never took into account that the new would wear off and players would realize there isn't much to it. PC is something that no one can win. there is no sense of accomplishment either. We win we get isk. So what that means nothing. Mercs want to be apart of something epic and they want winning and losing of battles and wars to be apart of the bigger picture and its not. There is no great battles or wars to be a part of just who you fight today. Worse even no one in eve cares we have no effect on them and that's the way they want it to be
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Unclaimed. 576	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:23:00 - [153] - Quote xAckie wrote: Kain Spero wrote: The biggest boon to letting people play the role of mercenaries would be to let one corporation be authorized to use another corporation's clones for a fight or even a campaign. merc work isnt ever going to be merc work unless Eve hires us. And I can't see any integration with Eve coming along in the near or mid future. Not with the issues they already face. My feeling here is the only thing we need here a robust contract system for merc ops. This should be incorporated asap for two reasons: 1) Attack/defense/territory-maintenance contract will affect the entire dynamics of PC, so including it sooner gets us to a system that works and plays well. 2) This contract system should be tested before we're connected to EVE so we can test the basic dynamicss of it before wildly distorting forces fron EVE get applied to us po' liddle mercs.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 456	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:26:00 - [154] - Quote VEXation Gunn wrote: ... Mercs want to be apart of something epic and they want winning and losing of battles and wars to be apart of the bigger picture and its not. There is no great battles or wars to be a part of just who you fight today. Worse even no one in eve cares we have no effect on them and that's the way they want it to be This was part of the reason I said PC was a distraction. CCP worked hard at the "own a planet" checkbox as if it would matter to us when we did :P FW needed the iteration, it was an embarrassment when it shipped and hasn't improved much.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1603	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:30:00 - [155] - Quote Gregor stormwalker wrote: I am not sure about the pressing the attack mechanic but im open to it with restrictions maybe limit it to 1 extra attack and only if the attackers still have over 150 clones this would also then encourage attacking with more than minimum loose numbers. with this in place 300 clone starter pack would have there places too. Actually, you may be on to something with 150 clone threshold for pressing attack. This combined with higher clone stealing rewards I saw suggested in another thread could really improve the dynamics of Planetary Conquest for the better.
bigolenuts KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 28	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:35:00 - [156] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Blamejudg3s KEQ wrote: If your getting burned out, blame your corp structure, not the game. From your own corp member. bigolenuts wrote: I didn't think I would ever burnout. Now, when I wake up I am almost dreading to walk near my PS3..lol... My opinion does not reflect that of KEQ, RofL or anyone else. That is just me in general. I have played more than I ever thought I would. Just because I am tired/bored/can't find value doesn't mean anyone else has to feel/think that way. Just me in general.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1603	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:57:00 - [157] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: 2) This contract system should be tested before we're connected to EVE so we can test the basic dynamicss of it before wildly distorting forces fron EVE get applied to us po' liddle mercs. The lack of the Eve connection and tie to the bigger picture is part of what's causing planetary conquest to grow stale so face. There could be thousands of Eve pilots fighting and dying over these planets in Molden Heath if the right incentives were created and less rigid OB mechanics were implemented. Create the economic incentive and the Eve pilots will come. Imagine if some or all of that passive clone ISK was going to Eve instead of Dust. That would be a potential 240 million to 300 million ISK per month per district reason to fight for control of the temperate planets in Molden Heath.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 456	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:28:00 - [158] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: 2) This contract system should be tested before we're connected to EVE so we can test the basic dynamicss of it before wildly distorting forces fron EVE get applied to us po' liddle mercs. The lack of the Eve connection and tie to the bigger picture is part of what's causing planetary conquest to grow stale so fast. There could be thousands of Eve pilots fighting and dying over these planets in Molden Heath if the right incentives were created and less rigid OB mechanics were implemented. Create the economic incentive and the Eve pilots will come. Imagine if some or all of that passive clone ISK was going to Eve instead of Dust. That would be a potential 240 million to 300 million ISK per month per district reason to fight for control of the temperate planets in Molden Heath. I'm having trouble seeing PC succeed (even with "tweaks") without the core economic integration. It's just not useful for either Dust514 or Eve until that happens.
VEXation Gunn Imperfects Negative-Feedback 245	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:35:00 - [159] - Quote The current design of PC is a failure. Let me say that again PC is a failure. CCP even told us about it month in advance and many of us told them it wasn't going to work. I fully expected PC to be new for about 1 month then slowly decline. The fact that 3 weeks in a Group like cronos that probably fought the most fights realized it wasn't worth it. Then at the same time NF won most of its PC matches and felt even winning wasn't worth the effort. What motivated players to play was to finally get fights against their forums enemies or **** talkers. So ccp mechanics were not the motivation to play just the forums beefs etc. All this shows is ccp is dependent on the meta game for players to play not the game itself. This is why dust is in real trouble.
IceStormers Forsaken Immortals 34	Posted - 2013.06.11 20:14:00 - [160] - Quote we need bigger games, 16 a side is too small for PC I was really expecting 32 for most then some smaller and some larger we need way more districts, you have to be able to spread your enemy thin with attacks everywhere EvE needs lots and lots more connection, the 300mill isk suggested further up is not really enough, its fine for a large alliance to hold an area of this size but not to fight over it, that amount of isk is not worth bringing one Cap out for lol They could work like POS? they have to fight to your area then attack the district from space which then opens it up for a local merc battle if they get their troops on the ground the fight above could mean alot more, right now it matters very little if you get support or not from above, i want to see some serious advantages from working with pilots

Mortedeamor Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 72	Posted - 2013.06.11 20:44:00 - [161] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: We could have a race with the LAVs :P The tanks and enemy ground infantry are the environmental hazards. hell yes alldin but make that a 2 man death race...rule other than side arm av only weapons...1 light av 1 heavy ....or if 1 vs 1...ill pitt my charybdis and light av vs yours and heavy ...death race
xAckie Ahrendee Mercenaries Omega Commission 177	Posted - 2013.06.12 08:17:00 - [162] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: xAckie wrote: Kain Spero wrote: The biggest boon to letting people play the role of mercenaries would be to let one corporation be authorized to use another corporation's clones for a fight or even a campaign. merc work isnt ever going to be merc work unless Eve hires us. And I can't see any integration with Eve coming along in the near or mid future. Not with the issues they already face. My feeling is the only thing we need here a robust contract system for merc ops. This should be incorporated asap for two reasons: 1) Attack/defense/territory-maintenance contracts will affect the entire dynamics of PC, so including it sooner gets us to a system that works and plays well. 2) This contract system should be tested before we're connected to EVE so we can test the basic dynamicss of it before wildly distorting forces fron EVE get applied to us po' liddle mercs. I understand your concern fit testing the system before connection. But I don't see how a contract system in PC between corps is going to make anything better. Corp X hires corp y Corp S hires corp y Everyone hires corp y Or some such. And then back to FarmVille. Essentially corps hiring other corps is just mercs hiring mercs. Mercs should be hired by an eve organisation to take a district for the minerals that can be mined etc. there then comes a reason to hire a merc outfit. Isk generation at the moment isn't a big enough incentive. Or I guess if they wanted to own that district and sell minerals on the open market (see below about sandbox) Wast worries me is I still can't see how this will never not be a FarmVille process actually even with eve attached. Having said that, PC should be faction warfare - not the end game What pc needs to become Is an actual sandbox with greater player numbers - an actually mmo. I have been here for over a year so I buy into what dust wants to be not trying to diss it
Fox Gaden DUST University Ivy League 451	Posted - 2013.06.12 14:11:00 - [163] - Quote What if they changed it so that Genolution Clone packs had to be deployed from a High sec systems using the same Survival Rates as if you were deploying from your own district? It would mean that some areas in Molden Heath would be accessible to attack by Clone pack and some areas would not. New Corps could still get into PC, but location would gain the tactical significance that it was meant to have. Systems 1 jump from High Sec: Bosena Oddelulf Meildolf Osvetur Mimiror Kadlina Systems 2 jumps from High Sec: Ennur Skarkon Klingt Aeditide Systems 3 jumps from High Sec: Aedald Altbrard Egbinger Audesder (Arnola, Derelik Region) Systems 4 jumps from High Sec: Hrober Muttokon Hedaleolfarber Sakulda


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